Deacons of the church, you guys serve quietly behind the scenes, but your role in the church is extremely vital. And unfortunately, at a lot of times, we do not think about this office very biblically. Taking a deeper look at biblical leadership coming up right now on the Peavy Today Show. You're listening to Clearview Today with Dr. Abadan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ.
I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis. Welcome to your midweek pick-me-up right here in the Clearview Today studio. Maybe you've been having a tough week. Maybe the after-Christmas blues have hit you hard.
Listen, you've come to the right place. We got a great discussion for you guys today with our host, Dr. Abadan Shah, who's a PhD in New Testament textual criticism, professor at Carolina University, author, full-time pastor, and the host of today's show. Dr. Shah, welcome.
It's good to be here. Good to see you. What better way to end out 2025 than the show? I know we got one more day or two more days. Today's the last day.
Today's the last day of 2025. Dr. Shah, how was your year? 2025 was a good year. There are a lot of wonderful things that happened.
I mean, we talked about. Truth Network expanding the radio stations for us. Thank you, Stu. Yes, big thank you to big Stu. Pray.com.
We thank the team at Pray.com. You guys are amazing. Yes. And we have increased our impact. And then TBN Plus.
TBN Plus is up. TBN Plus came out of nowhere. New kids on the block. We got a bunch of hits. And now we are on TBN Plus, and this is how it's coming to you.
So we're really grateful to the Lord. And there are other things happening too that we don't want to sit here and brag because really we need to brag on Jesus. That's right.
So we want to say thank you, God. Thank you for. For one, giving Jesus for us. That's right.
Thank you for the cross. Thank you for the Holy Spirit. Thank you for your word. Thank you for the church body, for people who support us. And thank you for this group right here.
Amen. You guys are amazing. Amen. Well, I say thank you for our pastor. Thank you for our host.
Thank you to our listeners. Thank you to just a great year. A great, great year here on the Clearview Today Show. And hey, here's to another great year. That's right.
2026, you're going to be even better than 2025. Here we go. That's right.
So, hey, Dr. Shaw, we've been talking a lot about church leadership. This is a conversation that we did not expect to span three episodes, but we've been getting lots of comments and lots of feedback from people who, surprisingly, I genuinely, genuinely, I really thought we were going to get a lot of pushback talking about we're not thinking about elders appropriately. We're not thinking about how deacons and all these things in the church work. A lot of people have been like commenting in and with support and saying, yes, I've felt this for years and nobody ever talks about it.
So this is, this is a really cool conversation. I think it shows that there's some confusion out there among the general population about like what in the world is this? Where did it come from? And how do we think rightly? How do we think biblically about this?
So I think this conversation. Has been very helpful.
So, the past couple of shows, we have really dissected the biblical passages, not all of them, but we're going to maybe do one more today. And then we have looked at the historical situation that gave rise to the whole idea that we need to have multiplicity, a plurality of leaders. And again, we're not against any of that. It's all great, but you cannot then say, oh, this is a biblical standard. Right, right.
We get it. We get the whole idea of accountability. I think it's a must. Financial, sexual, theological. These are the three major areas where accountability is a must.
But How do we go about doing that?
So I don't know, somebody's going to be out there saying, well, why don't you just let the elders do that? The only problem is The reason I am adamant about this, of course, is not biblical. The reason I'm adamant about this is because so many churches So many churches Are sabotaging the impact they could have in their community and in their world by this plurality of leadership. Yeah, we love too many cooks in the kitchen everywhere except for the church. We don't want that.
We think that applies in business, we think it applies in education, we think it applies in the creative arts, but never in the church. We always think that the more leaders and the more spread out authority and power and impact, the better. Is this just a deeply woven fear of? We don't want the Pope. We don't want one person dictating everything about us.
We don't want. Is this still a reaction to that or has it gone through? How many people genuinely feel that way these days?
Well, yeah. True. I don't think anybody would voice that specifically, but is it so ingrained in our thinking and in the way that we've been brought up? Is it still a result of that or have we gone to a completely different place? I think it's also because over the years there are certain celebrity preachers or the TV evangelists or these ministries where people got taken advantage of because there were no accountabilities there.
So they feel like we're going to have that again.
So there are reasons. But here's what they failed to do. They failed to ask the question, did those churches have elders? And here's what you find in many of those places. Deacons, elders, you have?
You have a group that is sort of. being the hedge of protection and trying to Keep the pastor in check, they're doing that. And it's still they these kind of things happen. Do you think that there's some complicity there? Like they're complicit or they're just completely clu I mean, either way is not good.
Like whether they're complicit or whether they're clueless of what's going on, it's not good either way. For one, they underestimate human nature. Human nature is sinful. Human nature is very sinful. And so.
By putting the pastor In that circle, and saying, You're one of the many now. Maybe you are. You know, one among equals, whatever, but we make the decision, not you, and you're not going to run this show, or we're going to sort of you know, be that hedge of protection around you. Whatever, whatever way they do. many times.
many times they curtail The passion the enthusiasm, the clear leadership that the pastor can provide. And it is so detrimental. to the church body. Who are great leaders, they never get a chance to lead because someone somewhere pulls the rug from under them. In some deacon meeting or some elder meeting, they.
And I'm not saying that any decision a pastor wants to make should be should be. Know, go ahead and do it. We have 50,000 in the bank account. Go ahead and withdraw $49,000 and do what you want to do. No, that's why we said financial accountability.
There should be a finance committee. Where is it found in the Bible? It's not there. But we have adapted, and that's perfectly fine to do.
So, to the contrary, we're making things more difficult and saying, put financial accountability there. Yeah, of course.
So. But what we are saying is when you Minimize the role of the pastor as a leader, as a vision caster. As somebody who is leading out front, when you minimize that. It doesn't mean That You are safeguarding that ministry. What it does mean is that that ministry now is going to remain.
Basically ineffective. That's true. That's true. You know, you think of the most impactful and successful, and when I say successful, I mean in terms of impact of getting the gospel out there, pastors of all time, you know their faces, you know, because they've been allowed that creative freedom to expand and to grow. And, you know, their leadership is what shines through, not their circle of elders, not their inner circle of leadership.
It's that innovation and that creativity that has come through and impacted millions of people for the gospel. And the thing that I think is unfortunate, maybe, probably not the right word, but those of us who are in the camp of like, hey, you know, it's fine if you want to have elders in your church. Just don't make that the prescription for all churches at all times. And then call names and say, this is a cult. Right.
This is a cult of personality happening. Don't do stuff like that. That's foolish. Then you're going to hear us call you out. Yeah.
Oh, yeah, yeah. Because, and again, we're being very kind by not mentioning names of. Those You know, famous pastors with their Bible studies and their radio ministries, they had elders, and they still went out there and. Texted to women who were not their wives. They still went out there and completely.
disavowed the faith and became Completely atheist, and they've done things that have harmed the church body. Horribly. I still find their books and used book sales. I still find those books, and I'm like, I remember this 25 years ago. This was the like, it was like hot cakes.
Yeah. This is what you want, this is what you want to give to your children. And now I won't even let you get near my children. Yeah, right. That's exactly right.
The way you have behaved and acted. I know those who are in ministry already know who I'm talking about. I was just thinking about that names that we have, you know. Pulled from the shelves in our resource center, names that we do not have on the shelves just anymore, because they've made. I mean, they've disqualified themselves, number one, but they've made our job more difficult.
And some of those same people who use that cult of personality attacks don't even realize that their favorite preachers that they love so much, they love their personality. What you've fallen in love with. Yeah, sure, you've fallen in love with the gospel message. That's fine. But you like that preacher, not because of the gospel message.
It's because of the way their personality, the way they deliver it. The gospel is the same. No, so yeah, yeah, I'm not calling anybody a cult leader, but what I am saying is that, well, you know what? We've already said we've had that conversation. Maybe we can.
So one thing that I wanted to ask you, because you mentioned earlier elders, and you also mentioned deacons, sometimes it's elder meetings, sometimes it's deacon meetings. We have, functionally, we have those at Cleaview Church, although we don't call them elders. We don't call them deacons. Are they the same thing? Are deacons and elders using interchangeable typical churches?
1 Timothy chapter 3, it tells us, I mean, the way people are doing these whole elder rule or deacon board thing, they have made up their own system and it has continued for so long. And we have even found some proof texts in the Bible to justify that. We are so far off the biblical Mark that People don't even question that. It feels to me like this is like the wall at a country club, like we're just sort of parading them around and just like, look at wow, look at them. Like, yeah, where does it say, thou shalt celebrate the people who hold these offices?
Right. I just don't see that. Yeah, exactly.
So in 1 Timothy chapter 3, it gives us the Qualifications of the bishop. Elder is not even mentioned.
Now, I believe. Elder Bishop Shepherd Are one and the same. And I'm same exact office. I also believe that there are certain people. I also believe that certain people are called to be the elder, the bishop, the.
The the um What's the word I'm looking for? The shepherd? Overseer. Is that the pastor, or is that a different? He's with the pastor.
Yes. I would say the pastor is that. D. Shepard. Who's called to be the elder, who's called to be the bishop of that church?
But then I know there are people who are called to be. Elders/slash bishops in a different capacity, like our men's ministry leader, okay? I consider that person to be an elder. I consider that person to be an overseer of that ministry. Isn't that what they were supposed to do?
I consider that person to be that bishop who is able to defend the faith against those who are trying to distort it. In biblical times, they were doing it. The Judaizers were doing it. But today, it may be people who are like, Well, I'm reading the Apocrypha, or I feel like always get to God. Or a man, like one of my friends who I'm witnessing to and have been for quite some time, is like, Well, I'm not bowing to any man.
He's talking about Jesus. And I'm like, you're not bowing to any man. He's not just any man. He's fully God, became fully man. That's right.
So, we need people who can counter them.
So, men's ministry leader. Let's see. People who are doing our outreach ministry, Sunday school teachers, small group leaders. These are elders, folks. They don't need to sit on an elder committee or board.
They're elders. And then the deacons, we have care group leaders. These are people who have been assigned a certain number of people in the church. Right. They're to serve them.
They're to take care of them. Check on them during Times of grief, check on them during times of Celebration. But care group leaders sound like a new age. That's like I'm serving people, which is fine. Deacons has on some authority, so I want that.
So I was getting ready to ask this question. We know the answer to this, but why care group leaders and not calling them deacons? Oh, sorry, I didn't mean to step on your name. No, no, no, no. I just, we were thinking the same way.
Like, why not call them deacon? We're in the South. And the moment you say deacon, the next question is when. Do we have the deacons meeting? I want to meet because I've got lots of thoughts on how you should be running this place.
Yes. Also, this is the first time. I mean, let me tell you something, Pastor. I live in the real world. I mean, in the early days, I heard that so many times.
I'm like, I live. In Pokemon World. That was my. I live in Hogwarts. Hi, I'm from Wonderland.
Yeah. And so it's like they won't, because that's the. And again, this may not be the case with Methodists or Presbyterians, but in a Southern Baptist setting, Deacons immediately imply certain people in the church who Who runs the business of the church? It's very likely that when people heard the word deacon, they got an image in their mind of what do you think is the fastest someone's ever visited a church and then asked how you get on the deacon board? You think first Sunday anyone's ever asked that?
I mean, I think one person did that. Oh, at clear. Oh, I mean, just in general, like, I don't even mean at clear. One person did that. Their first Sunday, they're like, how do you get on the deacon board here?
I'm just trying to figure that out. I mean, he didn't say quite like that, right? What he was saying is like, so, yeah, y'all have deacons. I was a deacon at the former church, and I just wanted to, you know, I would like to serve and do a lot there. And I felt for that person because I was like, I don't think he's trying to be in control here, but Ah, buddy, that's not the way to do it.
Yeah, you just revealed your own mindset. First time we ever met. You need to be in charge. You just got here. At least get to know who's who.
Yeah. Before you immediately go. You know, try to decide the business of the church. But here at our church, at Clearview Church, deacons are not making decisions, they're caring for families within the church. Do you want to explain how the care group structures?
Oh, yeah, absolutely. Care groups, again, this is the old traditional model, actually. Because you don't find, you know, for all those who think, like, whoa, we're deacon-led. And You don't find numbers of people assigned to them. But based on the book of Acts and what happened with the Hellenistic and the Hebrew widows, They were assigned to certain of the deacons.
We have taken on that practice of assigning a group of families to certain deacons.
So, at Clearview, we continue that tradition. I'm not going to say that's a biblical tradition, it's just a tradition, which is we have a bunch of care group leaders and the church membership, and even those who are active. Participants at Clearview, we assign them certain care group leaders, and those are the people who care for them, take care of them. And of course, we're also there to take care of them, but We just want to make sure that in the busyness of church life, we don't forget something happening in your life. You're in the hospital and nobody's come to see you.
Um that can be painful.
So We have care group leaders for that purpose. And we periodically meet with them, with the care group leaders. We give them information. John Ryan is the one who really does a lot of work in that direction. Um and we give them envelopes with cards with Birth dates and anniversary dates to help them reach out to their families.
And just to let them know, hey. We care about you.
Well, it's a joy to work with you on that, Dr. Shaw, and to remind the care group leaders why it is that it's important that they contact people. It's not just like, hey, I ought to do this. It's closing the back door. It's making sure that people have a place and they belong and they feel connected.
And it maintains one of our core values that we're a loving church, that we will continue to be a loving church no matter if we are 500 or 5,000 people. And that, I mean, that the care group leaders are a big part of that.
So, I'm thinking about like right now, our audience, right? Like, the people who attend Clearview Church are completely on board with care groups. They're like, Yeah, that's what deacons should be. And that culture is well established. Thanks to you two.
I'm thinking about our audience on Pray and our audience on TB. And I'm assuming there's lots of people who are listening who are like, No, that's not what deacons are supposed to be. But I would also venture to guess there's lots of people who are like, Yeah, that sounds right. And I want that from my church. Do you think this is an uphill battle?
Like, do you think that potentially we could change the landscape of how deacons and elders function in the church? I sure hope so. I sure hope so. Uh and if people would only do that Financial accountability. There's a finance committee who's been elected.
Building, we have a building, we also have a building committee. They handle the building of the church. I am not an expert when it comes to. The building management or building new structures. That's not my thing.
But I do know the need. And I've talked to the finance committee and the business and the building committee people and say, hey, we need to expand this or we need to repurpose that room. And they follow my leadership and they get behind it. And they're amazing people. They've done a great job.
And so. We have a finance committee, we have a building committee, we have a trustee board. I am one of the trustees. the pastor, which is very unusual. And so a few years ago, um the trustees felt like I should as a pastor Who has committed to stay here for the rest of his life?
You should be part of the trustee board. And the reason for that is so that If tomorrow something were to happen and the wrong person were to get on the trustee board and influence the rest of the trustees to take a wrong decision, that's a good point. What happens?
So, trustees are people who are responsible for the assets of the church. They're responsible for major loans and things like that. They're the ones who sign off on it.
So, that's a trustee. And I am one of the trustees. That's excellent. Which I think is a great thing. Unusual, but I think it's a good decision.
Yeah, I think it ought to be. I mean, you need that leadership who is a part of the trustee board. That's also, you know, I mean, the senior pastor is the one who's kind of setting the course, setting the direction of the church.
Well, again, if you just remove the Christian culture from the environment, let's just say that this isn't a church. Let's just say this is a business. It's a no-brainer. It's a good business. It's a no-brainer that the leader behind the helm is intricately involved in the running.
You know, it's only because we've now, this is now a church.
Now, all of a sudden, we're weird.
Now we want to get weird and we want to get strange and we start throwing up roadblocks. And it's just no need for it. And I think part of the reason, actually, I think a huge part of the reason that Clearview has been so successful these past at least 13 years that I've been here, I've seen monumental growth. And I think it's because you're hands-on. I think because the leader who's steering the ship is actually, I don't want to say in the mud and trekking through, but he's putting in the work, is the way to say it.
And in those churches that may have a deacon board, or may have an elder board, or may have deacons and elders, they have all these traditions, these traditions that we have picked up over the centuries from. The Reformation or whatever, but they are growing by leaps and bounds. But what's happening there is that the pastor has so established himself there. Through his Preaching through the winds. The decisions that he made, the vision that he casted, and it happened, that now people in those committees, they just know good behind him.
So far, he hasn't given us any reason to doubt him. Let's keep going. Because our children, our families are being blessed by this ministry.
So now we are 3,000 people ever since he came. When he came, it was 300.
Now it's 3,000 man. We just keep supporting him. But that takes decades, doesn't it? Uh that can sometimes happen in maybe five, ten years, but it's because it's a go-getter pastor. Strong personality, winsomeness.
So so people get behind him. Like a John MacArthur had elders, but come on, John MacArthur pretty much cast the vision, the values, everything of MacArthur. What is the name of the church? I forgot. I can't even.
Anyway, it'll come to me in a second. Or John Piper at Bethlehem Baptist. Or. What other major mega churches? I don't want to give just.
Calvinistic churches. There are other churches. Um there as well.
So People got behind them and no opposition. Unfortunately, that does not happen to many, many pastors. When they get into this deacon-led or elder-ruled churches, They give out because they're never given the chance to lead. They're never trusted. They're never encouraged.
They're looked upon as being now now, you sit down there, and that's a good idea, Johnny.
Now, we adults will sit down and talk and we're going to go into executive session. Pastor, thank you for being here. Look, we pray for you every day. Is there anything you ever need, just know we're here for you. And poor old boy picks up his Bible and walks out the door.
Yeah. And waits in the lobby while the the the big boys will handle his yeah. Come on, that's not right. Yeah. Any successful venture that you see, even outside of inside and outside the church, it's it's successful because there's a leader at the helm.
I've never seen any like Board or any committee or any group of people take a company or an organization so far into the public image. And even if they do, there's always that leader at the helm who's taking it there.
So I genuinely think that if you or any pastor for that matter just shows up and preaches on Sunday, the church is only going to get so far. I genuinely think if you did that, our church would be worse off. Right. You know what I mean? There has to be leadership.
There has to be. Uh uh uh you know, there there has to be s that That freedom, I would say, the freedom to lead. Yes. The freedom to hire. In many places, the pastor has no say in hiring people.
That's wild to me. That is true. Yeah, I know that it's true. I know that it exists, but the pastor who would have a team around him has no say in building that team. That's a wild because they're looking at it as.
We hire them. What do you mean? But it is a shame, though, because there's so many churches who have such a drive and such a potential to impact the world for good if it weren't being quenched, right? And again, the question comes up: what if he leads us down the wrong path? I mean, that's a potential in everyone, right?
That's true. And that's where. Financially, make sure there's a finance committee. Uh Encourage them to make sure they learn and remember what this will do to your community, to your family, to the church, and then theologically. Stop sleeping in charge.
Open that Bible of yours. Right? Right. What is this thing of sitting down and just snoring or just eyes closed and out? Yeah.
And I get it. You know, some people are on medication and they have to, they do the best they can. I get it. Listen to the man preach. That's right.
Take notes. Open the Bible. See if he's preaching the word of God. And if he's not. Get his butt out of there.
Right, right. Ask those same people if they are just as sleepy and tired and drowsy in their board meeting tomorrow morning on Monday as they are in the pew on Sunday. That's right.
I wouldn't venture to say no.
Well, there's tons of churches. I mean, it's shocking how many churches are like hampering their pastor without even really knowing where he stands, what he even wants to do with the church in the first place. Yeah. And if he's like, you know, doing crazy things or wants to do crazy things, like, we're going to. Have a circus at Clearview.
Now, if that circus is gonna bring in like 500 people into the church. By all means, brother, go for it. But if this is just like some whim. Uh you just felt like it and you wanna waste $30,000 from your church's bank. No, you shouldn't be doing that.
Unless something like that, give the person some freedom. That's right.
To step out and to try ways to cast the net to draw more people in. And you'll be so surprised when leaders are allowed to lead what they can accomplish. That is the purpose here.
So, for those of you who think I'm suggesting no accountability, do what you want to do, it's just the opposite. It's proper accountability. And then giving That person that you hired. The freedom. The authority took place.
to lead, to lead the people of God. And I want to read one more passage very quickly. This will help you understand the meaning of how elder, bishop, And um um What's the third one? Shepherd. Shepherd.
How they are connected.
So, 1 Peter chapter 5, if we can go there for just a moment. Yeah. 1 Peter chapter 5, verses 1. And I'm going to read all the way to verse 4. The elders who are among you.
This is Peter speaking, not Paul. And the word again is press butteros. Buterus, the elders, The elders who are among you, I exhort, who am a fellow elder. Oh, wait, Paul was an elder. But he was a missionary.
Paul was not. Which church's board was he on? Oh, he wasn't. Yeah, which pastor was on? Wait a minute.
Wait a minute. Yeah. Which means elders were not necessarily like a a a group that was hired. And then we, I'm off my rotation.
Well, where did you find that in the Bible? Right. I mean, it's a lot of things we do. Who am a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed? Verse 2.
Poimanete Poimanete is Shepherd, as a, it's an imperative, like a command. Command. But the word there is shepherd. The elders are to Shepard. Shepherd.
Yeah. Do you know that's where we get the word pastor? That's right.
Pastor the flock of God which is among you, serving as Overseer something. Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
So, what word do we have here? Um, episcopos. Uh oh, my framework.
So. We've used the word elders, now we're using the word shepherd/slash pastor, now we're using the word bishop. The elders who are among you, I exhort, am a full, fellow elders and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, on and on. Pastor the flock of God, which is among you, serving as bishops. Not by compulsion, but willingly, not for dishonest gain, but eagerly.
Let this be your guideline, folks. Amen. Nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock. That's right.
Yeah. And when the chief shepherd, again, the word there in verse 4 is archi poimenos. Ark, of course, chief. Uh Poimenos is Shepherd. I think it's a good idea.
So When the chief shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that does not fade away. Amen. So, Elder equals Uh shepherd slash pastor equals Bishop. Slash overseas a strike. They're one office.
And it comes with a beautiful promise. Absolutely.
So there is a person who does these things. And then you will have individual people who will serve in the capacity over the ministry that God has given to them. Amen. So, yes, we do have elders. And guess what?
Yes, we do have deacons too. And yes, we are pastor-led. That's right.
All of that can be true. All of that. And not only can it be, it should be. Guys, make sure you join us tomorrow. Same time, same station.
I'm going to be diving into another great topic here on the Clearview Today show. Thanks again to our sponsors for making today's episode possible. And don't forget that you can support us by subscribing to the show on iTunes, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Prey.com, TBN, all the different platforms where you get your podcast from. And make sure you share with a friend as well. You can always support us financially at babadonshaw.com forward slash give.
Nashville, Tennessee, we are coming your way. NRB 2026 is going to be great. It's going to be in the middle of February. We're coming. All those dates are going to be in the link we provide below.
Make sure you come visit us. Say hello. Dr. Shah is going to be there as part of the Truth Network and part of Prey.com.
So make sure. You come by and see us. Also, huge, huge, huge apologetics conference is happening right here. Today is the last day to get your early bird tickets. It's happening in Clearview Church, March 28th.
Go ahead and get those early bird pricings right now because tomorrow you're paying full price. You don't want that.
So get your tickets today. That's right.
We love you guys. We'll see you tomorrow on Clearview today.
