What do you do when God puts something on your heart? In fact, it's the next greatest ministry your church has ever seen. But hold on, partner. Not everybody seems to be as on board as you are. Figuring out how your idea fits in with the overall vision of your church coming up right now on the ClearB Today.
Yeah. You're listening to Clearview Today with Dr. Abadan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis.
Welcome to another fun week here at the Clearview Today Show. We got a week's worth of conversation starting today with a great conversation about ministry. You know, we left off last Friday with a great conversation about how to engage in great successful ministries in your church. And we got a check-in today from somebody who listened to that show and wanted to know more. But let me not get ahead of myself.
Slow it on down. We got a whole week to get to know each other with our host, Dr. Abadan Shah. If you guys listening for the first time, Dr. Shah is a PhD in New Testament textual criticism, professor at Carolina University, author, full-time pastor, and the host of today's show.
Dr. Shah, welcome. It's good to be here. Good to see you. Good start to the week.
It's going to be a week full of great conversations here on the Clearview Today Show. Before we do that, though, let's read the verse of the day. Verse of the day is back. Yes, lots of people have been messaging us. Lots of people asking.
For the verse of the day, nailing us calling us with very, very hurtful words and illustrations. And I don't know if you know this, this may be a spoiler, but all of the verses of the day are coming from the Bible. That's right. You can read them on your own. That's exactly right.
But today's verse of the day is coming from John chapter 4, verses 13 and 14. Jesus answered, Whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life. You know, it's a perfect springboard into a Labloo ultra-pure water ad. They are one of our sponsors, but you know what?
I'm going to take the high road. We're not going to do it. Although you can get some great LeBlue water delivered to your church with promo code Today, T-O-D-A-Y. That being said, you know, this idea that Jesus is the living water, he's tied to this imagery of water that refreshes us. And so for him to say that you're going to drink of this water and never thirst again, in this day and age where, you know, we can get water whenever we want to, I can go downstairs and get it out of the water fountain right now.
But in that day and age, when he said that, when water was a lot harder to come by or it took some work to Go down to the well to get it. I can imagine that had a huge impact on people. Yeah, much weightier. If I don't have to go draw water from the well again and carry it back to my house or to my animals or whatever, I would jump at that. Absolutely.
I would. Water that's readily available. Oh, yeah. Where do we get this imagery of Jesus being tied to water?
So, this happens in the Gospel of John. You know, John's gospel is unique. It's not like the other three synoptics.
Now there's you know, we discussed this a couple of m uh weeks ago about uh John being the fourth synoptic gospel. Uh there are people who are writing on this subject of how Matthew, Mark, Luke, Are not much different than John, but I still believe that there is some distinction between John versus the other three. John is very symbolic. He brings up a lot of signs that point to Jesus. He brings up a lot of symbolism that Jesus fulfills.
And so one of those is right here. Because in John chapter 7, I think that's the verse you quoted, right? Am I right on that? John 4. John 4.
Oh, John 4.
Okay. But John 7, it says, on the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, If anyone thirsts, Let him come to me and drink. He who believes in me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.
Now, what do we read that passage again from John chapter 4? It says, Jesus answered, Whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life. So, sort of very similar, right, in both things. In John chapter 4, he is talking to the Samaritan woman when he says what he says.
In John chapter 7, He is giving this declaration at that great, you know, the final day of the feast.
Now, the question comes up: which feast? We're talking about this is the feast of the tabernacles. Because if you read further on, you'll find it talks about. In John chapter 7, verse 2, kind of earlier.
Now, the Jews' feast of tabernacles was at hand. And then verse fourteen Now about the middle of the feast Jesus went up into the temple and taught.
So, this is the Feast of Tabernacles, kind of like the Feast of the Passover. was a background for the bread of life discourse. Tabernacles is the background for this light of the world and water of life. Keep in mind That a lot of these references are pointing back to Old Testament. Promises.
So, if I can read a couple of verses here, in Ezekiel chapter 47, it says. Then he brought me back to the door of the temple, and there was water. flowing from under the threshold of the temple toward the east, for the front of the temple faced east. The water was flowing from under the right side of the temple.
south of the altar. He brought me out by way of the north gate, and led me around on the outside to the outer gateway that faces east, and there was water. Running out on the right side. I think Joel Osteen had that problem at his church. He did oh, you caught me there.
Sorry, I was like, huh? I just was imagining Ezekiel seeing the temple, and water's like gushing under the door. Oh, yeah, and then Zechariah chapter 14, verse 8. And in that day it shall be that living waters shall flow from Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea, and half of them toward the western sea. In both summer and winter, it shall occur, and the Lord shall be king over all the earth.
In that day it shall be, the Lord is one, his name one. All that to say. This whole These declarations in John 4, John 7 about the water, they're actually fulfilling. The Old Testament promises and prophecies about the coming Messiah.
Now, I wish we had more time to go through that message, but maybe some other time. Sure, sure. But.
So when Jesus says what he says, it's not. In a vacuum. This is not something Jesus just. Just spontaneously declares these statements are fulfilling Old Testament promises about the coming Messiah and what will happen when he comes. Amen.
And water was a very important part of that language. It's repeated over and over again. Water is, you know, it gives life, it heals, it comforts, it quenches thirst. And so that picture is constantly tied back to God, specifically Jesus, coming as the Messiah. Exactly.
That's right. You know, we do have a check-in, a listener check-in with you guys today. But before we do that, we do want to say that, you know, we love sharing God's word with you. Just being able to sit here and talk like we have about God's word and see this incredible imagery come to life. We love hearing how it impacts you.
And we want you guys to know that we love doing it so much, but none of it would be possible if it weren't for our sponsors and if it weren't for faithful listeners like you.
So we want to encourage you guys to give and to give generously to the Clearview Today Show. That's right. You can do that by visiting us online at Abadanshah.com forward slash give. And for a gift of any amount, we want to send you a gift in the mail. Yes.
Just a way to say thank you. Thanks for being part of the Clearview Today Show family and making what we do possible to engage hearts and minds for the gospel of Jesus Christ. When you get that gift, go ahead and post it online, hashtag Clearview Today Show, or you can add us on Instagram at Clearview Today Show or at Paul Abadan Paul Shah PhD. I think it's, oh, I'm sorry, Abaddon Shah PhD. We're going to put the links in the description for you, as always.
But go ahead and just upload those pictures and tag us on them. Dr. Shah, so we got this check-in. From Friday's show. Friday's show, we talked about what it was like to do ministries and to stay focused on your ministry.
And what do you do if you have that nugget of an idea and you really want to follow it?
Well, we got this check-in from a young woman from Dallas, Texas. You want to give her a name? She did not. She did not. Uh, Dallas.
Let's have what is how about she's Delaney? Delaney. Delaney from Dallas. All right, Delaney from Dallas. This is what she writes: Hey, Dr.
Shah, I really need your input on something. For months, I've had this idea burning in my heart to start a ministry at my church, a creative wellness night where women can come together for prayer and journaling, scripture-based art projects, and a space to talk through anxiety and grief in a Christ-centered way. I sat down with my pastor to share the idea. He listened and he was very kind, but then he said something that threw me off. He said, it doesn't really align with our church's vision right now.
I just didn't know what to say. I left the meeting confused and discouraged. What does that even mean? How can a ministry focused on helping people grow in Christ not fit a church's vision? Is this just a gentle way of saying no, or is there something I'm not seeing?
I'm trying not to take it personally, but I'm very discouraged. I've prayed about this for so long, and now I'm not sure what to do next. Delaney in Dallas.
So I would say to her If you're part of the church, family, there is leadership in that church. And I'm hoping that the leaders are Sticking to the vision, the mission of that church. And if they say that this does not align with the mission or the vision of the church, maybe you can ask them: what is the mission, the vision? Right. And by the way, for you to jump up and come up with a ministry.
Should not have been that spontaneous. You should have looked at the vision and the mission of the church and said, how does my. Idea or whatever God is showing me align with this church's mission and vision. Then bring that. To your pastor.
Don't just do something and say, Here it is, and I need your support and your blessing. Yeah, a lot of people, I think a lot of people do that where they think because we're going to be talking about Jesus or it's Christ-centered, not only is it on an automatic green light, because how can it not be? But I also need your blessing, your support. I might need your support. Your resources.
Yeah, and your resources. Yeah. And that's not possible. Right. You have to first and foremost.
Discover or educate yourself on why your church exists. And if like for our church The motto is very simple, making Christ visible. And then our core values are: we believe in the word of God. Number two is worship. Number three is fellowship, loving one another, and number four is outreach, reaching the lost at any cost, or I would say in a Christ-honoring way.
So, those are our four core values. And then we also have vision statements that we had. from back in two thousand eight, which really was Completed. U uh somewhere about 2021, I would say, it got completed. And so we launched into another vision-finding series of meetings.
And now we have a five, ten, twenty year plan, right? But that's our vision.
So any time you bring an idea, we have to sort of look at our Vision statement and see how does this work? Does this even fit? Is it going to Help us fulfill the vision at a five, ten, twenty year mark. Because if it doesn't, and if it's something completely outlandish, maybe good, may not even be outlandish, it is good. It just does not.
fit with our purpose. Yeah. Yeah. Then we wish you the very best. We just cannot do it here.
Yeah. Is there a distinction? And is there ever a time where you would recommend a person starting a ministry as a sort of Parachurch ministry? Like, if this is something that's really on their heart and they feel like they feel very strongly about this, would you ever say, hey, that doesn't align with the mission and vision of our church? But on your own, This would be a ministry option for you.
There are ministries like that and outreach ministries, they want to just do foster care ministries, or they want to start a bus ministry. All these things are very noble, good things. But your church may not be able to do that at this point in time. It's not part of the mission of vision. It should be, you may be right.
But the leaders, if they have prayerfully approached the subject of Deciphering or discovering the mission and vision of the church, and that was not part of it. Then you need to respectfully leave that alone. Yeah. Or find another charge that does it. You're right.
Yeah. It's a bitter pill, I think, to realize that having a genuinely good idea. And also, it involving Jesus is not enough for people, for a church and an organization to adapt it and integrate it into its structure. Like, I mean, Creative Wellness Night for Women, I think that sounds kind of cool, but it does sound like even just me hearing it, it's like, and I'm not knocking you at all for this. I think this is a cool thing, but like prayer journaling, scripture-based art projects, space to talk through anxiety and grief, that sounds very broad.
You know what I'm saying? It seems, it does sort of feel directionless. And I'm not saying that as an insult. I'm just saying, like, I can see where your past is coming from. to where I would listen to that and be like, well, what is it?
You know what I mean? But could this conversation be: hey, this ministry idea that you have that involves reaching women and involves leading them toward a deeper walk with Jesus, could that be something that is rolled under the umbrella of that church's women's ministry? Yeah. Connected to a ministry that's already in place, already reaching women with the gospel and already giving them a place to fellowship and to build connection. This idea that you have for a ministry opportunity.
Let's take that and then let's infuse it in the ministry that's already happening rather than starting something brand new. I do wonder sometimes how many times we're like, because I think a lot of new ministries, and maybe you can give me some insight on this, Dr. Shaw, from all your years of being a pastor, how many times a new ministry. Could have just been an activity that an existing ministry does. I 100% agree.
Many, many, many, many times, that's all it is. It's a great. Service project? A standalone project. That's all it is.
and it could have went off without a hitch. Touch many lives. Given us a sense of satisfaction, a sense of accomplishment, that we glorified God, that we served the mission of the church by doing this service project. But then, when you begin to take it to another level, because it's something that you enjoyed and say, I want to build a ministry around this. Um Some How do I say this?
Uh I I I need some Some foundational tenets Of this ministry, and we're gonna now come up with our philosophy. We're gonna have a board.
Now you're taking it to another level that may not be sustainable. How much of it, or to what degree do you think it's the idea that I don't want to give this quote-unquote ministry? to an existing ministry because then it's not mine. I think that happens. She's in charge of it.
Yeah. That happens. Yeah. People have to do that. Control issues.
Their pet project. Like this is my thing. I don't want to relinquish control of it. And if that's your thing, then you need to examine your motives and say, is that really what I want? Yeah.
Because if I want to start this ministry and I want to be at the helm of that ministry, Because I don't want anybody to tell me otherwise or correct me or find a better way to do ministry than maybe. I'm asking for something very different than what this church wants to do. If someone were to come up with an idea. And they're not sure where it they're using the term ministry. What is a good metric that you use to determine: hey, this needs to be a full-fledged ministry versus this could be an event of or a project of an existing ministry?
That's a great question. Oh Because over the years I've had people come to me with such projects slash ministries. And They sound good, except I'm concerned that they may not be standing after six months. Even six months is too long. And so what happens is Sometimes pastors are just excited, or they just get bullied into doing this, and they go along with it.
Six months later, that ministry is disbanded. Or it doesn't meet anymore. And then there are people here and there who are asking, like, hey, what happened to this ministry? And now the pastor has to explain. Then it becomes almost like, I have to defend this ministry.
I have to prop up this dead horse. I have to make sure that the horse still gallops. The horse is dead. The skeleton is all that's left. But no, no, no, I have to do this.
How about the person who started this? How about that group who came up with this great idea about a year ago, or six years ago, or even three months ago? Oh, they're nowhere to be found. They moved on. They went off to another church.
They're not attending church anymore. Gosh. Wow. They've got into some kind of a sin, and so now it's all weird and awkward. Yeah.
So we're not even having that anymore. Yeah. And so now, but all these other people have sort of bought into it, wanted to get it, got excited about it, maybe met two or three times. Right. And now the pastor's having to keep this thing alive just because they don't want to.
I mean, nobody wants to close down a ministry that actually people do enjoy, but it never really fit in. Let's say someone comes to Clearview Church for the first time or any church that's out there and they say, hey, listen, I was really, really involved in my last church. I'd like to be involved here. Walk me through your process. Walk me through your vision.
I want to do this the right way and see how I can actually help you achieve your goals. First things first, join the church. First things first, take your new members' class. Educate yourself with The statement of faith. Educate yourself with the bylaws, the procedures.
Just know how this church operates. What are the things that are important to that church or to that pastor? And then begin to see how can my idea, my vision, this this thing that has been running through my head, how can I now help them meet their goal? Because if I help them meet their goal, they will help me meet my goal. You know, it's a win-win situation.
Right. As I help you reach. The vision God has given you. You're going to help me reach the vision God has given me. Do you think that's rare these days for people to want to join first and then start?
Uh yeah, it is. I think so, because the whole idea of membership is no longer as important as it used to be.
So, people are not joining churches. They're like, I just want to serve, I just want to do things. Why can't I just do things? I wish we would just go ahead and do things. Was it like that back home in India, or was membership a much bigger deal?
I mean, I know it was in the 80s, but um. It was there, just like here, nothing different. There were people who would not join and most people would join the church. It was a big deal, but then there were some people who wouldn't d join. But over the years it's become those those boundaries have become very um weak.
Do you think that's Is that people leaving the door open in case they want to jump somewhere else? Is that, hey, I have to leave my membership at this previous church, but this I've is what I view as my church. Is there a reason for that? I think they don't want to commit. Hmm.
Commitment requires work, commitment requires attendance, commitment requires participation.
So, I'm not going to commit.
So, I can back out of it anytime I want to.
So, really, really, really, I want you to support this ministry. But what is a guarantee that you will continue to be there even if nobody comes? Right. Oh, no, there is no guarantee. Right.
I can't give you that guarantee because right now, the way things are, you know, a child is sick, or my kid is in the final year of high school, or something, something, something.
So I can't really commit. Yeah. So it sounds like this is not. Just a gentle way of saying, no, we're not going to support it. It sounds like this is a genuine, the church is going in a specific direction.
And this ministry, whatever it is, even if it sounds cool or if it might actually genuinely help people, it doesn't sound like it's going to help further the church's interests in navigating their direction. And the more we begin to. do these kind of things, we lose credibility.
So Tomorrow, when a really good ministry comes to mind, or you form it, or somebody brings it to you, and you go, Man, this is great. This is an answer to prayer. When you try to present that to the people, the people are like.
Okay. Are you f Really going to follow through. Are you really going to make sure that this works? Anything going to sustain it? Or is it just right now?
You're excited about this, and then in three months, it's all going to be forgotten. Which one is it? Yeah. Years ago, I started a ministry. I think it was called Fish.
Yeah. The Fish Network. I remember it.
Well, you were not here, though, at the time. I remember it.
I was not here when you started it, but I was here when you started. It was supposed to be this ministry that I was going to. create that will not only enhance fellowship in the church, but also Uh enhance. Evangelism. Fellowship in someone's home.
Yep. That was no, this was different. Oh, it was a different fish.
So that's what I was thinking. I thought it was, yeah, I thought it was the fellowship in someone's home.
Okay, I do remember that.
Okay, you were here for that. Yes, I was there.
So, this is a different fishman. This is the fish network.
Okay. Okay, now I'm hearing for the first time.
So, I put it in the bulletin. I have some of the old bulletins, so you'll see that in there. And so, I. Began to put it in the bulletin. I didn't talk about it.
Coming soon, Fish Network.
Okay. Okay. But you know, when there are only twenty people in the church, it doesn't really matter. They're like, they're like They didn't care. They were fine with it.
If tomorrow. If I said the fish network Uh, got arrested and thrown in jail, they'd be like, Okay, if I said the fish network was just a make-belief world, they would be like, Okay, okay, that sounds good. Thank you, Pastor. I was good talking to you. It didn't really matter.
It stayed there on the bulletin, I think, for like a good year. And never manifested? Never. I was hoping to, but I was like, I'm going to keep it there, and then one day I'm going to have a chance to sit down and come up with certain tenets of the fish network. that we intentionally come together to Fellowship with each other.
We go out to eat. Maybe we go outdoors, like go fishing for real. And we invite people to go with us. And this was like supposed to be this fishing network. And they never questioned it for like a year?
No, they never questioned that. And one day it just disappeared. And nobody even said a word. Rest in peace, fishing network. It was in my mind, and it stayed there.
And that's that. That was it. You know, when the church grows, you cannot do those kind of things. Yeah. You cannot start something like that and and put it out there for people to look at because for those twenty people didn't care.
They were they were nice people, but they were just like, Ah, fish network, okay. But that's not the case today. No, not if your church is bigger. Yeah. When I say bigger, it doesn't have to be like a 5,000-member church, but if it's like.
50 people, and they actually want to do something, and you put fish network coming. Then you better There better be something coming.
Something coming. Make sure. That it's a real ministry and it will have tangible results and it will have consistency, something, something, not just Fish Network coming.
So, if this young lady, Delaney, we were calling her, if she brought this idea to you and said, I have this idea for this ministry, this creative, what was it, creative wellness wellness. For women coming together for prayer journaling, scripture-based art projects, and a space to talk through anxiety and grief. What advice would you give her? I would say, at least at our church. Yes, for our church, I would say, please go talk to Nicole because Nicole leads our counseling ministry.
So if you're trying to help people who are struggling emotionally, spiritually, especially women, please go see her. And then she will help guide you, direct you, what needs to happen. Secondly, if it's some kind of an art ministry type, we already do something like that with the light women's ministry.
So maybe connect with the leaders of the light women's ministry and see how maybe whatever you have in your mind, we can integrate it here.
So let's try that.
So I'm not going to shut her down or say, hey, that's stupid. You know, it's not sustainable. No, I'll let her do that. But I will guide her to go in one of these directions and how to integrate it into what's already happening. Right.
Yeah. Instead of starting a brand new ministry just because. You want to, right? Yeah. The the idea of starting a ministry when it's a fantasy in your head right now is very, very alluring and tempting.
And you, you have all these grand visions of what it's going to be, but then that's kind of just it. You're not really integrating into a vision that already exists. Right. You're bringing your vision of what you want this ministry to be and trying to jam it into the church's structure.
Well, I think some of these things, these project-based ideas that people have, whether it's, you know, we want to minister to people who are dealing with the loss of a loved one, or we want to minister to people who are, you know, walking through a season of depression, or we want to minister to first responders, whatever the project might be. One of the things that Clearview does that, Dr. Shaw, you've kind of put forward for both our Sunday school classes and our small groups is having this as a service project. Like you as an entity, whether it's a Sunday school class or whether it's a small group circle that's meeting, you take this on as a service project. And then that falls under the overall ministry and vision of our church.
And you're still accomplishing this thing of giving. Gifts to first responders or sending gifts into the homeless shelter or something along those lines. It's one and done. Just go out there and do it. Right.
Yeah. Don't try to create. a an organization Or an entity or something, just go out there and do the project. It's a service project. When the project is finished, Hey, it's disbanded.
You can redo that project a month from now or six weeks from now. You can redo that and say, hey, so we covered. The region A. Through the service project, let's go to region B. Let's go to region C.
You can keep doing that. Yeah. I love it. And that's an important clarification in people's minds. It's not that, hey, this idea is off the table, it's bad, but it's how to fit that idea in an underneath the vision of your church.
And you've got to work with your leadership on that. You've got to talk to your pastor. You've got to talk to your ministry leaders and make sure that that vision or that ministry that you have or that project that you have integrates into what your church is already doing. Every single ministry that we do, every project that we do, Dr. Shah has signed off on it.
And it's not because, like, oh, we have to just make sure that we have the correct permission. It's because when people see your leaders behind it, they will, they, they get on board. Yeah. You know what I mean? Because that's a person, that's a man who's built up trust.
Whoever your pastor is, he's built up trust with the leadership of his church to know that, hey, the direction this man's taking us, we're following him. Not only me, but my family, my children, my grandchildren, we're following him. And, you know, Dr. Shah also mentioned this as well. I don't, Miss Delaney didn't say how big her church is, but if your church has a reputation for delivering.
Then, yeah, I mean, you don't want to, you don't want to then put something that's, I hate to say a risk, but you know what I'm saying? Right. You don't want to put something out there that now he's going to, because you're not the one that's going to look bad when the ministry ultimately doesn't go anywhere. It'll be your pastor. It brings accountability.
You don't want that. It brings accountability. It brings support and it brings unity to your church. Those things are important. Guys, make sure you join us next time.
Same time, same place. We're going to be diving into another great topic here on the Clearview Today Show. Thanks again to our sponsors for making today's episode possible. And if it was your first time listening to us, we just want to let you know we love you. Played that you're here.
Thanks for listening and we want to talk to you again tomorrow. Don't forget, like John said earlier, you can always support us financially at AbhidhanShah.com forward slash gift. Clearview Today Show is coming to TBN Plus on December 18th. That's very, very big news. Also, NRB 2026 is happening in Nashville, Tennessee.
We are coming. We're going to have a table. Dr. Shah is going to be there also as a featured leader on Prey.com.
So make sure you swing by both Prey.com's booth and our booth here at the Clearview Today Show at the Truth Network. We're going to be there. Come see us. Come say hello. We can shout out your ministry.
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Early bird pricing is going all the way to the end of the year, so make sure you snag your tickets today. That's right. We love you guys. We'll see you tomorrow on Clearview Today.
