Pastors, ministry leaders, you cannot reach a community that you don't know. You got to step out. You have to learn your community story and love the people that God has placed around you because ministry starts on your own streets. All this and more coming up today on the Creepy Today Show. You're listening to Clearview Today with Dr.
Abinan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis. Welcome back to the Clearview Today Studio. We've had a great week of conversation.
We got today and we still got tomorrow to make an impact in your week. We want to say thank you for listening and thank you for joining us here today. Got another great conversation revolving around ministry. You know, last week's, last week's, yesterday's conversation was so beneficial for so many people. We had people writing in, talking about ways that they've been ministering in their community and it sort of led to this conversation we're going to have today.
But I'm getting ahead of myself. We want to welcome our host, Dr. Abadan Shah, who's a PhD in New Testament textual criticism, professor at Carolina University author, full-time pastor, and the host of today's show. Dr. Shah, welcome to the studio.
Thank you. Good to be here. Good to be here with you as well. A great discussion today. I'm excited about today's discussion.
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Dr. Shaw, we're talking about ministry. You know, we were talking about ministry yesterday. Our poorly attended events probably are not as much on the community as it is on us and our planning. And that sort of got us to thinking about how do we minister to our community?
How do we reach the people who are here around us? And you said something yesterday at lunch that I thought was really, really cool is that a lot of times pastors, ministry leaders, We are trying to minister to a community that we really don't even know. You know, we're not even aware of who these people in our community are. Think about a lot of big businesses. When they move into a community or when they're thinking about going into a community, they will put out some feelers.
They will send people on the ground and they will come and they will meet with business leaders, chamber leaders, city council, county commissioners. They will get a lay of the land. They will. Try to understand the history of the area, the demographics of the area, who are the people, how educated are they? What is the workforce like?
They try to get to know the community. Before they plant that business there, before they invest anything. Unfortunately, churches and ministries fail to do that. They have all the right intentions, but they go into places cold and they begin to expect churches to be full or ministries to start growing. And when they don't, they use the old line, you know, well, you know, we did the best we could, but just like Jesus said, you know, shake the dust off your feet and move on.
The Christian cop-out, if you will. Yeah, shake the dust off your feet and move on. But what if that wasn't the reason? Right. There is a place where there's hardness of heart, there's a place where communities could be closed off.
to the gospel or people are are too You know, anti-Christian or anti-church, and they're not coming, but could it be that? Is because we're speaking a different language. Yes, I think so. You know, one thing you mentioned talking about big businesses, one of the very first things they establish is who is our demographic? Who are we trying to reach?
And I think churches are at a disadvantage because the very first thing they'll say is, if you ask them like, okay, well, who are you trying to reach?
Well, oh, everybody. Yeah. And like, yeah, on a macro level, it's 100% true. But then it's like, well, okay, how do you reach, quote unquote, reach everyone? How do you minister to everyone?
What version of everyone is in your backyard? What version of everyone would be coming to your events? And you got to speak the language of the people who are around you. That's right.
You know, one thing we've, Nicole and I have tried to do over the years is get to know our community. Because every community has a story. Just like the one in which we live, Vance County. This is, if you do, if you don't know where Vance County is, this is to the kind of middle north part of our state of North Carolina, right up on the Virginia line. Extreme north.
Right. I mean, like you would say, maybe 15 minutes it takes us to get to the Virginia line. Yeah, I usually, when we talk to people, I usually tell them, not from the house I'm living in now, but from the house we were just in. If I sneeze too hard, I'll step backwards into Virginia. Like it's a fair rock and you can hit somebody in Virginia.
Yeah, yeah. Right. So we're very close to that. And so it has its own story, it has its own character. To get to know that is very important.
Who are the people you're trying to reach? What have they experienced with regards to Christianity? Over the years over the decades. and then meet people where they are. And with the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Take them where they need to be. But if you don't meet them where they are, then you will try to make them go somewhere, but you really don't have a grasp on where they are. And you're trying and you where you're trying to take them may be accurate, but you just don't know where they are. I think a lot of churches will look at their community and say, okay, well, my community is a very small, country, southern Bible belt town. But I want the bit the results like the big, big cities like Dallas or Houston or Nashville that are that are reaching millions and millions of people with the gospel.
And you want those same results without realizing that you have a very different Community, a very different demographic. A very different demographic, yeah. And that's that's one of the basic level places you have to begin. I mean, do you have the same demographic? Right.
Dallas says has his own character, Raleigh-Durham has his own character. Richmond has its own character. Atlanta has its own character. Chicago. I mean, all these places have their own character.
Now, there are certain things you can. assume like if it's a college town, whether it's north, south, east, west. College town has its own feel, so you can have a certain kind of a worship service and certain appeal and talk to them where they are, struggling with their faith. Or trying to Establish themselves or trying to figure out what's the next step after graduation.
So you can speak that language, and you'll get hundreds. But that's not possible when you're going to any town in the USA. That's not possible if you're just going to a mid-sized city in the United States. You need more.
So Other than those college town type fields. Or maybe even a military town. You know, they have their own persona but That's not always the case. Is this something that you knew growing up, or is it something that you had to learn after stepping into ministry? I saw it.
With my own dad. My dad, if you know his story and you you guys have heard his story many, many times, he came from a Muslim home. He was kicked out of his home. He lost everything, but he gained Christ. And when he went through seminary, he it was hard for him because there were no There was no church sponsoring him.
A missionary sort of helped him a little bit, but. That's about it. He had to wash his students' clothes and and iron their clothes just to to be able to have some money to survive. At the end of his graduation, he was made to take one more year to just just to be able to um graduate because they were not sure what he was there for. Long story short, he gets called to a very big church.
This is Cary Baptist Church still standing. In India. And it was planted by William Carey himself. In your hometown or in a different town? No, it's a whole different town.
Gotcha, gotcha. uh up in uh on the eastern part of the of India. Mm-hmm.
So He was going there, but then that night before he was leaving, God spoke to his heart. and there was a call for from a small little country church. Not really country, but it was a small little church in a railway junction town.
So railway junction towns have their own persona. It it may have been there for hundreds of years. But it became Significant because it was a railway junction, lot of trains were passing through there.
So lots of different people from different places. That's right.
Does that make it harder, do you think? I know that this is sort of deviating from the story, but does that. No, I mean it's still part of the story because it gave the town its character. Because in our hometown, we had people from everywhere. From South India, North India, East, West, they were all in our town.
So I had the opportunity to meet and grow up with them. It was also a town where there was a strong British presence.
So the homes around our church were old British bungalows.
Now, by the time I came along, this is 1973, those bungalows had become sort of homes for the doctors who were working at the railway hospital. Or uh the the chief engineers in the train stations, uh in the trains, they were the ones who were occupying the house. But prior to that, they were British homes, so it had its own. own character. And so knowing all of this is going to affect the way your dad preaches.
Absolutely. Yeah. Because the people who came to our church go you know, so uh long story short, my dad ended up going to the small church, which was this railway junction town. But it was well suited because Um He was able to connect with a lot of different people. He was not from that town.
But in this town, there were people from north, south, east, west.
So it's sort of, and maybe this isn't the point, but it's sort of telling me like there's no template because this is a small town, but it's got a big city character because there's so many different. I would say a very diverse character. Right, right.
So there's not a matter of like you are an outsider. It's sort of everyone is an outsider. Basically, other than going to certain parts of the town, there were people who were there for a long, long time. But where we grew up, the railway area, I mean, you had, you can go this state, this house, and this family comes from the south of India. You go to the next house, this family's from the north of India.
I mean, it was all over the place.
So does his preaching have to be very broad because of that? Very diverse. Not broad. Theologically, but it was broad in the sense that he had. Like he's trying to do.
Five or six languages. No, five or six languages in the church. Oh, wow. Yeah. Wow.
Yeah. So we had two services on Sunday morning. Uh one service was the English service. He spoke in English, but there were There was a translator there. And at one time, there were two translators.
So while he would speak, there would be a translator, and then there would be a translator. Wow. So he would speak. It wasn't like simultaneous. He would speak translator, then the other translator, then your dad speaks again.
Yeah. Wow. Yeah. And that would move pretty fast. How does that?
Oh, so I was going to say, how does that affect your preaching? But I mean, we can definitely talk about that another time. But I can tell you right now, it really makes your preaching very concise because you're not wasting words. Yeah, you got to say what you got to say. And it would still end in an hour.
Wow. So All that to say, growing up, I saw. In our own church How to understand your congregation. My dad did not lead that church as if it's it was like an old established town with families going back decades and centuries. No, he was speaking to people who were who just moved in.
Last week, they got a promotion and they came here from Bombay. They got a promotion, they came here from Delhi. I mean, it was like. All kinds of people moving in and out. Smash cut to 2025 in Bible Belt America, a young pastor graduating seminary, knowing full well that every five or six years he's going to be at a different church in a different community.
And there really is no opportunity to get to know. Like, I I mean, I know that's one of the things that we talk about is, you know, don't do that. Plant yourself and dedicate your life to one town, one community. And I understand there are sometimes you have to make the move because you you have reached The pinnacle of what you can do in that community. And people feel like, hey, I've done everything I could.
I just don't know what else. I think God is calling us to move, go somewhere else. And I know that can happen, and that happens, and no judgment on that. But if we're just going to move because you're bored with it or you're tired with it or somebody hurts your feelings. Or you don't understand why people do what they do.
Maybe you're the common element, which I have a sneaking suspicion that is more often the case than we've reached the pinnacle of what we can do in this community. It's more, I'm bored, nothing's really happening here. I'm going to move where the action is. And it's sort of unrealistic to come into a community, right? Like as an outsider, thinking that you've got the answers, you're going to transform this community in three to five years.
And that you're going to just bring your values, your worldview, and everyone's going to assimilate from it rather than saying, I'm going to get to know this community, find out what they value, find out who these people are, and try to minister to them. You know what I mean? That's been my strategy. When I say mine, I'm talking about Nicole and mine. Because I saw my dad do that.
I also saw my father-in-law do that because he grew up in South Georgia. Mm-hmm.
And he went to seminary. Uh well, he he was in the Air Force in Warren Robbins Air Force Base, which is like maybe forty five minutes or thirty minutes south of Macon, Georgia, which is about two hours south of Atlanta.
So he grew up in that part of the country. Goes off to seminary. When he came back, he came to one of Robins. He had a very successful ministry. Several reasons.
He was an Air Force veteran. Mm. People in that town We're Air Force people.
So, already there's a connection. Connection. Great connection there. He grew up in South Georgia. His wife, which is my mother-in-law, was from Macon, Georgia.
And this was her hero Hometown, or at least close enough to our hometown.
So he knew the p people, he knew the places. Second connection. Or you can say third because he was from South Georgia, and then, of course, his wife was from there and he lived around there.
So it made a big difference.
So when I saw these things, I knew getting to know your community is very, very critical.
So, can we copy and paste that strategy onto your life and your ministry? You've got a you come to America at 17 and 91. That means in 98, you're 24. And you just about it. And you come to this community in North Carolina, in Henderson, North Carolina.
How do you get from there? Entering in as a young 24-year-old, young pastor from India. to now been in the community 30 years. What does that journey look like? And how do we map that on this hypothetical listener who's listening and saying, yeah, I wanna learn my community?
So when I first came here, I'll be honest, I was not intending to stay here. for life. I came here as a youth pastor. And when the pastor left a year later, he went back home to take care of his family. I was asked by the church to preach, and I did.
And so they called me to be the pastor. This was in 1999, and I began that journey. Initially I was like, Okay, I'm a seminary trained guy. I have uh Heritage as a pastor's kid.
So I know ministry. And Nicole's dad was also a pastor.
So and he had passed away by that time in 1999. But nonetheless, I also had learned a lot from him, so I can really get this church growing. We can make things happen. I tried it. And it fell apart.
People didn't want to follow.
So, did, and I don't mean this in a racial way, but just being like being not from the community, did that work against you in any way? No, because I was not even trying as hard to reach the community. I mean, I was trying, I would talk to people about coming to church, you know, give out information about the church and stuff like that. But. Really, truly The church people themselves, as loving as they were and as good as they were to our family, they were never hateful to us, they were always good to us.
They they did not trust my leadership they didn't they didn't think That me being the pastor or anything I was suggesting, I was a good preacher. They said, oh, we love it, we love it. But other than that, they're not going to follow me. Did they trust the pastor your predecessor? No.
Really?
So, this was a longer problem than just your leadership. Yeah, and again, over the years, they had pastors who had come and gone, pastors who they loved, and then pastors who they hated.
So, they knew the cycle. They knew the cycle. They liked some, hated most. And Typically, the reason for dislike was how those pastors would get angry with them. For not supporting them or growing.
Or trying to get the church to grow or move or do something. There was always. Those kind of stories I would hear. Oh, you remember so-and-so? Oh, I remember him.
He was, I remember that time. He started calling names in church, you know, stuff like that. Gotcha. He wants to make us do stuff, and we don't want to do that. Yeah, because, and I don't blame him because some of the things they were asking.
the pastors were asking the people to do. I wouldn't have done them. But you're filing this stuff away. You're like, these are the people that I'm ministering to now. Maybe not intentionally.
Not initially. Yeah. Initially, when things didn't go the way I was hoping they would go, I was packing bags. I was getting ready to leave. And I called my dad up and I said, you know, we're thinking about Moving along.
I may go into teaching because I've been asked to teach. Um I am in the PhD program. or will be starting the program soon. Because this was like 2000, and I began in the fall of 2000 in the PhD program. I was thinking about that.
Or maybe I'll work in some church setting. I'm not that concerned about it. We'll see what happens. And my dad, of course, as y'all heard the story, he told me, don't leave. Plant yourself there.
Because if you run today, you can run all your life. Don't do that. And he was saying that to me from his own experience. Don't do that. Listen.
Learn. You got a lot to learn. And I didn't like that. I was like, you have no idea. Because, you know, typically our mind says, I hear what you're saying.
But you don't see the whole picture. Right. Right. You're not living it. I'm living it.
I'm living it. I understand better. You think I'm stupid, but I know more. And that's what we do as young people. And but I I sort of gave into listening to him.
I was like, okay, fine, I'll stay. He said, Preach like you're preaching to 5,000 people. Did you believe him or did you just not want to disappoint your dad? I didn't believe him.
So it was more like, I'll stay because I don't want to disappoint my dad. I don't want to do something my dad has told me not to do. I have. long since I've learned the value of listening to godly mentors. A lot of people will come into your life wanting to guide you.
They have no business guiding anybody. But when you have somebody who genuinely cares about you, genuinely has the heart of God. And genuinely has wisdom. Because you know, all those three things gotta happen. They have to care about you.
They have to have a relationship with God. And they def genuinely need, definitely need knowledge and wisdom. Because you can have the first two, but. There are a lot of great people out there who love God and they love me, but I don't know what there's nothing I can learn from them. Yeah, you're right.
Not that they're stupid. Not that they don't you know, are are are good people. They're good great people. Just cannot guide me. That's right.
So once you see that I learned a long time ago You may not initially like it? But eventually, you will realize they're telling the truth.
So beyond that point, you start pouring into the community, you start falling in love with the community, getting involved. But when I say community, when you say community, I'm talking about the church people.
Okay.
So we're just focused on the people who are part of the church right now, not the surrounding population. Not the whole community, even though we were trying to reach the community. Right, right, right.
So when I did that I I realized Wow, I have so much to learn. I have so much to learn because these people have a story. Our church has a story, our church has a character. And what is that character? Not a person I'm talking about here.
I'm talking about the events in the life of the church that have shaped them into who they are.
So it began in a revival.
So they had the revivalistic spirit. It began by some very dynamic Pastor who founded the church. But then the pastor Wife did not want to be here because she was from a city. This was a small mill town. She didn't fit in with the people.
This is the 40s, 50s. She wants to move to Charlotte and Greens Greenville and Greensboro, those kind of big towns, she wants to be there because that's where she's from. She didn't want to be here.
So he leaves. But his heart is here, so he comes back. She didn't want to be here.
He leaves. Again? He comes back. And they hire him back. Please don't.
He leaves and doesn't come back.
So three times. Wow. So now the church has sort of learned. pastors don't stick around for good. Just because you started the church does not mean you will be there to finish it.
Imagine starting out like that. Yeah. And again, nobody's to be blamed. She's right for wanting to go in a big city because that's where she's from. He's right for wanting to come back, and they're right for saying, We're not sure.
And then theological liberalism came in this area. That damaged the church. You are you you are uh you've gone from gospel believing, fundamentalist type church to now liberalism is coming in, moderate theology is coming in. Then you have pastors coming and going. church splits are happening.
Uh you have fights among people.
So a lot of these things have happened. How do we take this story? And apply it to the listener. The listener is saying, Okay, I hear you. What about my church?
How do I do this with my context? I would say take the time to talk to people. I'm not saying for a moment, stop preaching the gospel, stop standing up for the truth. No, keep doing what what is right, but in the meantime Stop and listen.
Sometimes people just listen. They become one of the people. You're useless. I don't need the doctor to become one of the patients. That's a great point.
You know, I want him to still be the doctor, but try to understand the patient a little bit. Why is the patient reluctant to say, take the treatment? Yeah. Why is the patient. um suspicious of the doctor.
Find out. But don't stop being a doctor. Don't become a patient. That's not going to help them.
So I continued preaching the gospel, continued leading with encouragement and rebuke at times. I mean, I I I was tough. And still am? But in love? but still trying to learn and understand what's happening.
What's going on? What makes this church different than the next church? Because it's not just that, oh, our community is like this, so we're all churches are like that. That's not true. Every church has its own persona.
So if somebody's listening. And you happen to be a pastor or a church planner? Don't stop being a pastor and a church planner. Don't stop being a man of God. Don't stop preaching the word.
With clarity and boldness and courage and grace. Don't stop doing that. But still stop. and get to know the people. And we did that.
Yeah. Yeah. And our kids were a big part of that because the church family just adopted the the children. First it was only Rebecca and well, actually it was Rebecca and Abigail because by the time they hired me as a pastor, In 1999, Abigail was born.
So Actually, she was born even before I got hired as a pastor. I was a youth pastor when she was born. And then Nick was born in 2003, and then 2006 is when Thomas came along. But. The church family had adopted.
Our kids.
So that helped a lot because it was a love between them, love for us, care for us. And um always a loving church. but had to understand the character. And I believe that has made a big difference. I think you're right.
That's wise wisdom. Wise wisdom. I hope you guys are listening at home. I hope you wrote that down because you're not going to get that in a seminary class. Learn the character of your church.
Learn the character of your people and minister to them where they are. Don't try to force them into your mold of what you think a church ought to be. Know who you're dealing with, who you're ministering to, and meet them where they are. There's a great balance between leadership and assimilation, you know what I mean? Because you're not assimilating to them.
You're not becoming, like you said, you're not becoming one of your congregation, but you're learning who they are and you're learning who it is you're leading. You know what I mean? You know, if you think about Jesus, he did the same thing. Right? I mean, he went to.
The fisherman, he didn't try to reason from scriptures with them. He said, come follow me, I'll make you fishers of men. when he saw Philip He he He talked about scriptures, he talked about Nathanael.
So he met them where they are. When he met the Pharisees, he talked about the law. When he met the Sadducees, he talked about the resurrection.
So, also, Paul says it very clearly: I'm all things to all people, so that by all means I may win some. Jewish people I'm Jewish, to Gentiles I'm Gentiles.
So, understand the community, but stick to the gospel. That's right, that's right, that's right.
So good. Guys, make sure you join us next time. Same time, same station. We're going to be diving into another great topic here on the Clearview Today show. Thanks again to our sponsors for making today's episode possible.
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