Trauma hits the hardest when it does not make sense. I mean, after all, you've done everything right. You've prayed, you've lived a great Christian life, you've made sure that all the boxes are checked, and yet still, trauma comes your way. What are you supposed to do? That's exactly the question that Job was asking.
That's what we're talking about today on the Cleaver Today show. You're listening to Clear View Today with Dr. Abadan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis.
Welcome to the studio. We had a great response to our episode yesterday.
So many of you guys were writing in and sharing your stories with us. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for doing that. We're going to continue the discussion today.
But before we do that, I want to welcome our host, Dr. Abaddon Shah, who's a PhD in New Testament textual criticism, professor at Carolina University, author, full-time pastor, and the host of today's show, along with perma guest Nicole Shah, back in the studio once again. Nicole, good to see you. Good to see you. Thank you for having me again.
Amen. Thank you for being here. We're excited to continue the conversation. We talked on yesterday's episode about the trauma that Job experienced and how we can use the book of Job to rightly think about trauma in our lives and parse out how to respond in a way that keeps us focused on who God is. That's right.
And what is the end goal? James tells us in today's verse of the day, James chapter 5, verse 11. Indeed, we count them blessed. Who endure. You have heard of the perseverance of Job and seen the end intended by the Lord.
It means there's something coming in the end that we're working towards, that the Lord is very compassionate and merciful.
So it got me to thinking about our conversation yesterday, some of the things that we've been through. We actually had someone write in and tell us a story. I was going to read it on the air, but it was really long. But basically, someone said one of their traumas was they had, they were graduating high school. This was back in like the 80s, and their mom stood up and like clapped and tripped and fell down the bleachers.
And they said that drama. I was like, so it was traumatic for your mom? They were like, no, it was traumatic for me. All my friends saw my mom. Is mom okay?
Yeah, I don't know. They weren't worried about whether it was okay.
So I thought it would be kind of cool for us to share some of the things that we went through, maybe as kids or maybe just earlier in life that impacted us. One of the most, and this is, this is, I hesitate to call this traumatic, but it was traumatic for me. When I was a little kid, I had to be like Gavin's age, like four or five years old. There was a restaurant. You guys remember Western Sizzlin?
There was a restaurant. Was that a chain, or was that like a just a chain? It's a chain.
So, so Western Sislin, we had one here in town. And they had like a buffet. And I remember, I don't know why this memory just comes to me every now and then. There was a big buffet line. There was broccoli and there was like the melted cheese.
And I was like, oh my goodness, that melted cheese looks good. And I just dipped my finger in it. Just tasted it. And the guy behind the counter saw me. He didn't say the thing.
He just took it. And took it away. And I don't know why my. I thought my mom gave me this psychological sadistic nuclear bomb, but she kind of took me and just pulled me to the side and said, Look, do you see what he did? He did that because you dipped your finger in the cheese.
Now it's dirty. And she pointed at everyone around. She said, All these people, no one gets any cheese now because of you. Go sit down. I cried.
What a great mom. Man, I love that mom. I cried so late. That is a mama. She was like, she didn't yell, she didn't whoop me.
She just said, Nobody gets any cheese because of you.
So you were traumatized. Oh, I remember that to this day. But it made you a great kid. It made me, I do. Look, if I don't, yeah, I didn't have a whole lot of misbehavior problems as a kid, but if I know that as an adult, if I see stuff on the buffet line, I do not stick my finger.
Yeah, we're glad. We're happy about that. Among other things, you want to do today's, if I can kind of deviate just a little bit on the trauma side. As parents, this gentle parenting that is happening, you're setting your kids up for a lot of problems when you don't correct them because later on, somebody will correct them far more. Than you ever imagined.
So correct them now. It will prevent other corrections through the road. That's true. 100%. And you may not think that, like, she at the time may not have thought that was good enough punishment, but I still in my 30s remember that to this day.
I remember how terrible I felt. What about you? You got anything?
So one comes to mind when I was little. I can't remember, maybe seven or eight, maybe. We were getting in the van, and we had a minivan with those sliding doors on the side, Dodge Caravan.
So we were piling in. My sister got in. She would have been in a car seat at this time.
So I get in and My mom is outside and she goes to close the door.
Well, I remembered that I needed to tell her something. at that moment for some reason. And I was like, wait, wait, wait. And she closed my fingers in the door. Oh my.
Like little kid fingers latched in the door. She shut the door. And you know that scream where you can't, like, can't you? You just can't get it out. I have no sound coming out of my mouth.
So she walks all the way around the van, gets in, sits down in the driver's seat. And then I catch my breath and start screaming. And then she realizes what happens.
So she gets out, goes around the van again, and comes and lets my fingers out. I don't know why they weren't broken. They weren't broken. Thankfully, I had tidy little kid fingers, I guess. But I remember after that, like every time the sliding van door closed, I was like, Yeah, I bet.
I want to sit on the inside. You got one, Nicole. I do. Mine is from even, I was even younger. My mom tells me that I was still in diapers.
I don't remember that part, but I do remember. Um That my dad went out, there was a snake on the patio. I don't know if y'all remember, like back in the 70s and 80s, there would be like a sliding glass door out to a patio. And I was told that there was just One snake. on the patio and my dad went out there to kill it.
But I mentioned this to my mom years later, and I said, I remember that time, and dad was out in the backyard, and he was killing a whole bunch of snakes, and she was like, There was only the one. There was only the one, but in my mind's eye, you know, and I just don't, I still, I'm like in my 50s. And when I think about that instance, I still see like a whole bunch of kids of vipers just like Indiana Jones style. Yeah. I mean, that must have been traumatizing to me for me to remember that all these years later.
I remember seeing my dad shoot a snake when I wasn't traumatized at the time. I actually was scared of it, but now looking back on it, I thought it was cool. But yeah, I saw my dad one time. You know, what was really traumatizing? I don't know if I should say this on Christian radio.
He went out in the yard in his tidy whities with a cigarette in his mouth. And I remember that was more traumatizing than seeing him blow the snake apart. What about you, Dr. Shaw? You got one?
I have two. One was when I was a little boy, I was going to someone's house. I think this someone was a teacher in my school, and there was something happening there. I think it was a party or something. I can't quite remember what was happening.
But anyways. I knew that this teacher had this big Alsatian dog. It's like a German Shepherd kind of type, big dog. but I didn't know where the dog was. But I knew because I used to walk past that house to school.
So I knew that the dog was there. Didn't know that there was, because I never went up. into that house and had to walk up the steps. He was Usually under the stairs. Oh, no.
And so I am walking up and. That dog comes as a big dog, too, isn't it? Oh, it terrified me. I mean, terrified me. I think I cried.
I just don't remember. But it it was very terrifying. Wow. And the second was w when my mom got sick and it just felt like always something was happening that was always negative news. And she was in the hospital for several months, so it felt like life was over.
Yeah, I can imagine. Yeah, you know, a lot of these stories revolve around parenthood. And a lot of these stories revolve around, like, and it's interesting, a lot, a lot, a lot of the trauma that people go through, even if it doesn't directly is inspired or caused by, it usually revolves around your parents. And so I think about like Job being the parent. He's the one that remains.
Think of all the things that, because you talked about this in your message, how Job spared no expense to make sure that his children were set up for success in life. And then to see that all taken away, I think that makes that trauma even worse. And again, as Nicole mentioned and clarified for us, trauma is not the event, trauma is the response to the event.
So I believe Job's trauma was made worse because, in the event, his whole children died. What kind of a father was he? If you read the Bible carefully, he was a great dad because he not only raised his children in the right manner, that's why they were meeting together, eating together, a lot of good values that he had instilled in them. But it also says that at the end of their feast they used to have ten feasts based on their birthdays, because the Bible says on each person's day they would meet, which means each of their his children Birthdays, the whole All the siblings would get together. Yeah.
He has seven sons, three daughters.
So ten birthdays a year. and they would get together.
Now typically in a Near Eastern birthday or any kind of feast, there will first be an atonement sacrifice. That's what we find in historical documents. That's what they would do.
So, when they came together, atonement sacrifice would sort of cover their sins and get them right before God. And I believe they were worshiping the living, true, triune God. I emphasize triune because he's talking about the Redeemer. That's right. Right?
He's talking about the mediator between God and man, had to be fully God, fully man.
So I think he understood the triune, triunity of God. And so the atonement sacrifice first, followed by, of course, their feasts, At the end of the feast Job did something that maybe others did not do. He offered a whole offering to God. Whole as in W H O L E, complete offering. What is a whole offering?
Whole offering is when you take an animal and burn that animal completely as a sacrifice to God. Other offerings Whether it's atonement. Or any other offering, usually the food comes back, the meat would come back. In the time of the temple or the tabernacle, the meat would part of it would go to the priests, the other part would come back to the families. But this is, I believe, pre-tabernacle, pre-temple.
Right.
So. the meat probably came back to the family. Because the father was the priest of the family. But burnt offerings or whole burnt offerings. Where Everything was burned up.
Everything.
So think about it. Ten feasts A year. Ten children. At each of the feasts. One animal Per son or daughter.
and daughter, I would say.
So Ten, ten, ten, ten. Hundred animals burned. Just so That's what we're going to do. Just to protect his children spiritually. That's right.
Wow. Means he was a good dad. Oh, yeah. He was going above and beyond. He was doing more than just checking off the boxes and doing this.
He genuinely cared about his children's spiritual lives. And that's why I went through all that to say, that's why I believe the trauma was even worse for him because. I did all right. I know my kids were not perfect, but I did all right. Why would this happen?
Yeah. Yeah. We're struggling with that question. And I think that's the question we all struggle with. And so, you know, and maybe Nicole, you can speak to this too.
How does it affect your beliefs about life or about God or how you even approach life? Yeah. I love the example that Michelle Keener we used her book, some examples from her book for the message that we preached on Sunday. And one of the examples that she used that so many people came to me Saturday night and Sunday and said, Wow. I get that because I think we really understand when we use a physical.
thing in life to Represent What's happening in our minds. And she uses the example of a filing cabinet. And the filing cabinet is our lives. If you wanted to, you could also apply that. And I don't want to cut off what Nicole was trying to explain here.
On a desktop, you have folders. Yes, you do. But then you can download a PDF here because you purchased this, or a health report that you got from your online health. Um You just don't know where to put it.
So it just sits on your desktop and it stares at you all the time, right?
So it can still work in the Gen Z world. It can work. It can work in any world you're thinking about. But It's like when you experience a traumatic event, it's like all of a sudden all of this paper shows up on your desk or it shows up on your desktop, okay, on your computer. And it's overwhelming because where does each one of these papers go?
I have all of these file folders and they're each labeled, and I know where each thing goes, but then all of a sudden I have all this, all these papers or all these files. And you get overwhelmed. I can, yeah, I can, I can see that a lot. Overwhelmed. My wife is super, super, like, the house has to be super organized and pristine and labeled.
And sometimes I'll look at her desktop and say, no wonder you're stressed all the time. That's like a, that looks like the beach is a normal. Yeah. Look at that. Yeah.
So when you have, when you have experience a traumatic event, it's like somebody just throwing all of those things. And now. in order for it to become Organized, you have to spend the time processing. And integrating what's happened and be able to put those things in each folder. That's a great example because that's a job that would often get outsourced to someone else, to an intern or something.
Like, here, file these for me, because it's tedious, it just takes time. You can be doing other things while you're sorting and putting the organizing these into folders, but we've got to do that where trauma is concerned because we are the only ones. There's no one that can come in and sort it for us. We ourselves have to sit there and parse these out. Great example.
Like, imagine, Dr. Shah, you just got a filing cabinet, like a filing cabinet for your documents. Like, these are text-critical documents. They're like ancient Near East writings. These are like really, they're things that if that only you would really know how to sort.
So, like, how devastating would it be if someone came into your filing cabinet and just took it and tipped it all over and was like, all right, now we, I mean, you can't get an intern to sort all that stuff. And that's what people do with their. With their pain and hurts in life, they find the cheapest. or they will find The whatever is readily available to help them file these very, very important papers. They're probably more important than those papers and files that are sitting in the filing cabinet.
And they will find anybody to speak into their lives. They will go on TikTok. And they will look for Somebody to sort out their papers. They will go on Facebook, they will go on Google, they will go on any.
So-called counselor. Just because they put Christian next to their name on a website does not mean that they are going to be the proper filers for your. Your papers, your trauma papers.
So many times people are using wrong people to help them properly classify these files. And guess what happens when those Files get put in the wrong folders. It's not as simple as well, they're just going to sit there. In a human being, it has a different effect. That's right.
Yeah. In your in my life, if they are sitting in, if papers, I'm talking about actual papers, if they're sitting in the wrong filing cabinet or folders, they'll get forgotten. It's the exact same, it's the exact same. You brought up the computer earlier. If I go, especially on Windows, this is really a thing.
If you work with Windows, you know exactly what I'm talking about. If you go into the program files and you take like a code out of one folder and put it in another folder, that code will not work. The program will not run because it's in the wrong path. That's true. Maybe that works right there.
Yeah, that's a great. But if it's physical, it may sort of work, but it's going to really cause some trouble because you can't find it. You cannot find them. And you go, what's wrong?
Something is wrong.
Something is missing.
Well, because you put those papers or those files in the wrong filing folder or filing cabinet. And so that's what people do. And hopefully these. Shows Are helping people properly classify their events. And put them in the right folder.
That is really what. genuine biblical Christian counseling is all about. That's right. That's right. That's such a good picture.
And it's helping people classify those events and sort through them and maybe even add some folders that they didn't have originally that they need in order to sort through these traumatic events. What do you say to someone who is doing these things and they're feeling like, all right, it's been a year, it's been two years, it's been five years, it's been 10 years, and I'm still, I feel like I'm not able to move on. Am I weak? You know, am I just not doing this correctly? I said this in the message, and I said it's not weakness.
You have to remember. That Along with The trauma that you sustain, the wounds that you sustain. There's also Grief that comes along with that. 'Cause usually it's it's because of a loss of something or someone. That you're experiencing these traumatic events.
It could be. And so I always tell my clients. that you can't put a timeline. You can't put a timeline on processing the traumas. You can't put a timeline on processing your grief because it's.
Very, very individual. It matters the makeup of the person. on how they have filed away those papers or incorrectly filed a paper. I think that maybe the incorrect filing sometimes that would cause you to have even A longer recovery process. A good point, because I think that's where.
Many times In our churches or in our culture, people do. They're uncomfortable with suffering, and so they would just like to go ahead and file it. And all that it does is create shame. And it it blame Or it will create dismissal. That's what people do.
And Michelle Keener, in the book Out of the Ashes, talks about that. What happens when that Wrong filing takes place.
Well, I'm going to actually read her quote here because I can't say it any better than what she says. She says, shame tells a survivor their reaction to the traumatic event is not appropriate. How many times have we heard Or have you heard someone s tell someone else, or even you, Well What you're experiencing that's not appropriate. Yeah. Yeah.
Then she goes on to, yes. Then she goes on to say, blame puts the responsibility for the event on the survivor and conveys that they deserve what happened. That's Unimaginable to think that somebody is going to tell you that what you experienced, the trauma that you have sustained through whatever happened, that's your fault. But Jub's friends Start out to go down that road, don't they?
Well, I think they went far down that road. Yeah, they like catapulted themselves. They did. They pretty much told him throughout all those you must be doing something wrong, Joe. You must be doing it.
Yeah, go ahead and check your boxes and make sure. Oh, there it is. I didn't do that sacrifice. And they went right by the books, too, because they were like, Is there something you could have done? And Job's like, No, I did everything right.
And they're like, Okay, now I'm going in. And then Elliot, the other friend who shows up, who is coming from more of a biblical perspective, he's like, Stop being so arrogant. Stop, humble yourself, Job. Yeah. You do self-righteous.
So the other ones were saying you must have missed something. This one says you are self-righteous. But either way, what they're saying is your performance is affecting your blessings. That's right. Job's friends, not a masterclass in trauma theory.
No, no, no. No, no, no. No, definitely not. And also remember, too, that. When you encounter someone who has been through.
a trauma. that especially if you happen to be one of the first people that really that go to them and say hey i'm so sorry they're reaction, their first reaction to it. Will not be the final one. That's a good point. Because you have to remember that when you experience.
These any type of a traumatic event. Your brain Kind of takes over for your body. And that's the way God meant for it to happen: that He created our brains to be able to protect. protect our bodies to say Let's 'Cause you'll hear people say, I just feel numb. After a traumatic experience, I just feel numb, or I feel like, or they don't say anything at all, but you can tell they're kind of in shock.
You mentioned something, Dr. Shub, about people being uncomfortable with suffering and kind of playing on what you're talking about, Nicole. If you happen to be one of those people, one of the things I've noticed that I've done as well, but I think a lot of people do it is because we're uncomfortable with suffering. We tend to say things like, hey, listen, if you need anything, just let me know. Which is saying, come to me.
Yeah. I know you've got a lot going on, but I'm going to give you one further job, which is contact me if you need anything. Because in my mind, I know you're not going to. You're not going to.
Well, I think some people, especially in the South, we say that.
So that we've kind of covered our bases. Yeah. and we're hoping, maybe, that they won't. Call us. But you know what?
If you are If you are the person that you claim, that you say you are, you know, that you're caring and all these, then instead of just saying that, If you know of somebody, family, friend, or whatever, and they've gone. Just go. Yeah. Just go and go be with them. And if they need help doing anything, I mean, if you walk in the house and you're just you're there with them and you see that something needs to be done, just do it.
That's right. Yeah. Jerry Sitzer talks about this in his book, A Grace Disguised. As how the soul goes through loss. And And it's amazing his description, again, just like Michelle Keener, is quite worth.
Hearing. He says catastrophic loss wreaks destruction like a massive flood. It is unrelenting, unforgiving, and uncontrollable, brutally erosive to body, mind and spirit.
Sometimes loss does its damage instantly, as if it were a flood resulting from a broken dam that releases a great torrent of water, sweeping away everything in its path.
Sometimes loss does its damage gradually, as if it were a flood resulting from unceasing rain, that causes rivers and lakes to swell until they spill over their banks, engulfing, saturating, and destroying whatever the water touches. In either case, catastrophic loss leaves the landscape of one's life forever changed. My experience was like a dam that broke. In one moment, I was overrun by a torrent of pain, pain I did not expect. And And he goes on to say, to give you a context, they were in a car accident.
with a drunk driver. and he lost his wife, his mom, and his daughter. Wow. Oh my gosh. All at once.
Three generations. Yeah, just gone. Wow. Incredible. Gone.
Wow. And so you can imagine it's a different kind of. Loss there. But again, there's a lesson there for us to, if you're coming to help somebody, just recognize that there are different levels of grief, that there's different levels of trauma. And know who is where.
And by God's grace, hopefully a little education, hopefully, this show is going to help you. That's right, absolutely. That you can then come alongside that person and help them. in the time of need. Yeah.
There's no one size fits all response. But I think you two have laid this out beautifully for us: that you don't have to have walked through the exact same situation that someone else has experienced in order to be that source of hope, that ray of light in the midst of darkness. And sometimes, even just being present is the opportunity that you have to do that, just showing them that you are physically present and that you're there and that you care for them. I think we can end with our verse of the day, and maybe you guys can just give a response to it with James 5:11, where he says, You know, we count them blessed who endure. You've heard of the perseverance of Job, right?
Job saw it through to the end, and he saw the end intended by the Lord. And I think, Dr. Shaw, as we go through Job, that sight of the end is what we're driving towards. But that's exactly what Nicole does in her counseling, which is helping people see that this is not the end, that God has. A better day come.
That's right. As difficult, as painful, as impactful as this event has been. uh God has something in the future And that is a four-letter word called hope. Hope is not just I hope it rains today or I hope it stops raining. Hope is an assurance that a better day is coming.
And that assurance is based on the person of Jesus. That assurance is based on the nature of God because James says right here that the Lord is very compassionate and merciful. Mm-hmm. It's not just about God is wise and powerful, compassionate, and merciful.
So, what you're facing right now. may not make sense to you, Wise. May not be Uh you may not be able to comprehend it. powerful But you will find grace and compassion that you need. Amen.
One of the biggest things that. we as believers should understand and hold to and share with others. Is that God is working something together for good? Like Joni Erickson Tara, who became a paraplegic when she was a young girl. This is back in the 60s, late 60s, early 70s, I believe.
And I read her biography when I was a little kid. And and You know how much impact she's made in the world. She said this: she says, Sometimes God allows what He hates. to accomplish what he loves. Wow.
So, whatever has happened in your life, he hates it, but he's using it to. Build something good. And though something good is the nature and the person of Jesus, which He loves. I love it. Amen.
Amen. Guys, make sure you join us tomorrow, same time, same station. We're going to dig further into this topic here on the Clearview Today show. Thanks to Permanent Guest, Nicole Shaw, for being on the show today. Thank you, Nicole.
Thank you to our sponsors for making today's episode possible. And don't forget that you can support us by subscribing to the show on iTunes, Spotify, wherever you get your podcast and content from. And you can always support us financially at abadanshawn.com forward slash gift. And if you do that today, make sure you let us know. We want to send you a little gift, just a way to say thank you.
That's right. We love you guys. We'll see you tomorrow from Clearview Today.
