All of us have faced some sort of trauma in our life. And when you see someone walking through the same things that you've walked through, it makes you want to reach out to them. There's a connection there. And so you want to encourage them. You want to let them know that it's not going to last forever.
But imagine for a moment that you were sitting across from Job. What would you say to him? That's right. Today's show covers the trauma of Job and more. Coming up right now on ClearBee Today.
You're listening to Clearview Today with Dr. Abadan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis. Welcome to the Clearview Today Show.
We've got a great week of conversations planned out for you guys. Before we dive into anything too concrete, right, too real, let's take a second. Let's step back. Let's introduce our host for the day. It's Dr.
Abadan Shah, who's a PhD in New Testament textual criticism, professor at Carolina University, author, full-time pastor, and the host of today's show, along with perma guest Nicole Shah, back in the studio. Nicole, welcome, welcome. Good to see you. Good to see you. Thank y'all for having me again.
Absolutely. It's going to be a great day. We actually had someone recently as we were out in the real world, not the studio, but the real world. Ask about perma guests. Yeah, yeah.
So, where's perma guest Nicole Shah?
So it's funny. We talked about it with this person. It was the same day we did that episode on evangelizing, you know, going out to that pizza place. We had one of the other guys that was with us who is a fan of the show. And I had no clue that people were listening like every single day.
And I was telling him it's encouraging because, you know, you do this day in and day out, and you don't have a ton of chance to interact with people, other than people who are writing in.
So you start to wonder: are people listening? And turns out, yeah, they're listening.
So, can we give him a shout out? Absolutely. Our friend Jamal. Thank you for watching the show. Shout out to Jamal.
That shout out. We promised him a shout out like weeks ago when that first happened. We forgot. But we delivered. It just took a little bit of time.
Our apologies, Jamal. Yeah, it was not really forgotten. We were waiting for Perma Guest to come back because he brought it up and he said, yeah, it was like we will. But by the way, just to say a word about Jamal, it was such a pleasure meeting him and just his insight on things and his, of course, love for the gospel. That's right.
And love for. Our community, which is Truth Network and Stu, I mean, he has the same admiration for him that we do. Yes, and so it was a joy. It was a joy to meet you, and I know we're going to connect more. Amen.
That's right. We're going to jump into the verse of the day here in just a second. But with today's episode being about trauma, we want to take a second and acknowledge that maybe there are some people who are listening or watching that are dealing with a traumatic situation, that you're going through maybe the worst moment of your life right now. If that's you, I want you to pay special attention to what I'm about to tell you. There's a number that's associated with the Clearview Today show: 252-582-5028.
And that number is open 24/7. It comes directly to us. We monitor the texts that come in, we monitor the phone calls that come in.
So if you are struggling with something or if you are walking through maybe the darkest night of your life alone. Know that you're not alone. You've got people here at the Clear Read today who love you, who care about you, and who would count it a privilege to pray for you and to pray alongside you.
So, if we can be an encouragement to you, we would love the opportunity to do that. There are countless stories, Dr. Shawn. I know you told me one about your dad, and I know Stu Epperson has told them before that when they're going through moments of crisis, it somehow always comes back to Christian radio. That's where they turn, and that's where a lot of them hear the gospel.
You know, years and years ago, I remember, and I was in India at the time. I remember hearing a story about a young man who was on his way to kill himself. This is back in the 70s. And he was listening to this radio station. It's a conglomerate of Trans World Radio, which is a Christian radio network.
And it was playing. A sermon or a message, a gospel message about hope and forgiveness. And about peace with God. And this young man was walking past. A small little house, maybe even a hut.
And He heard the gospel. on the radio. And it changed. His His direction. He Of course, he didn't commit suicide, but he went back and he wrote to the radio station that, hey, I heard this, and I just want you to know that I'm now have given my life to Jesus Christ.
Amen. Amen. Later on, I had a chance to meet this young man, he was from a village. And he had married by this time. He went to a Bible college.
He became a pastor. And so, I actually had a chance to meet him.
So, radio has an amazing way of touching lives. Amen. That's true. That's encouraging to hear, you know, to know that the impact of this show and other shows like this are going over the airwaves, going across the internet, going across whatever platform you're listening on, and making the gospel accessible to people. It's a privilege to be able to do that.
And we're thankful for our partners who make it possible for us to do that. That's right. You know, Nicole's on the show today for a reason is because this is her area of specialty. You know, trauma is not something that typically gets talked about on Christian radio. We're going to talk about it today.
That's right. Our verse of the day today is coming from Psalm 119, verse 50. This is my comfort in my affliction, for your word has given me life. I think, you know, I don't want to speak for everybody who's listening, but I think one of the toughest things about going through trauma is that it's very easy to think that nobody else understands. Nobody really understands what I'm personally going through.
They may have some trauma of their own, but what I've been through, nobody does or can understand it. Yes, we all go through trauma on our own, but we can't. My trauma might not be your trauma. And so we can say, a lot of times we can't say, I understand what you're going through. Because we might not.
Be able to understand exactly what they're going through. But we can say, you know. I d I hear you. And I understand. I may not know exactly what you're going through, but I can.
understand it? I can pray for you. I can, you know, help you through whatever it is. But being able to, you know, when people say, oh, I know exactly what you're going through, not. Yeah, unless they have exactly gone through it, you know, maybe it's best not to say that.
Maybe it's best to say. I understand that you're going through pain. That may be better rather than saying, I understand. Your pain. Right.
Yeah. Understand that you're going through pain rather than I understand your pain. And just a little subtle change, but it helps them know that you're not over-promising, but at the same time, Uh there has been a backlash over the past I would say maybe Two, three decades, maybe two decades, where you can't tell me you understand. You can't tell.
So, what has happened is a lot of people now don't say anything. When they meet someone who's going through a difficult time, they feel like I don't want to say anything because they may say, You don't understand, or they may just. Just fire back at me and tell me You have no right to tell me that.
So, people now don't even say anything because they're afraid of offending and starting even more. That's 100% true. Yeah, I think that's an important clarification. Just because we don't completely 100% understand the exact shoe steps that you have taken, the exact footprints that you have walked through, doesn't mean that we can't be there. It doesn't mean that we can't be a source of hope and of comfort in those difficult moments.
Yeah, I don't know where that false premise came from to where, like, the only way that you're able to help me through this trauma is if you completely understand it. You know what I mean? Like, it's sort of setting yourself up for. Uh, for failure, you know what I mean? Yeah, because how can you truly understand what?
Because you're not that person, right? And you don't think the way that person thinks, you don't have. have the same thought processes you know we And so it's Like grief, like pretty much anything, trauma is individual because it is very. It's, you know, whatever happens to that person, like I did say in the sermon last Sunday. That two people can go through the same exact trauma, but one person.
Can go through it, and they walk away seemingly unscathed. Where where the other one completely falls apart. Yeah. So that's very individual. That message, I think, was helpful for people hearing from the two of you, kind of from a biblical standpoint and from a counseling standpoint as well, all founded upon scripture.
Is there trauma in the book of Job? Yes. Did Job experience trauma at all? Maybe?
Well, we began last week's message with laying out those five traumas that came against Job. Mm-hmm. Of course, as you know, there was a wager in heaven. God said To everyone, especially to Satan, have you considered my servant Job? And he is a blameless man, upright, one who fears God, shuns evil.
Great man who loves me for who I am. And Satan, of course, throws a doubt in there and says, Of course he loves you because you prosper him and because you protect him. Take away his prosperity, take away his protection, and he will curse you to your face. And then at that moment you would think God would say, Maybe you're right, you're wrong, or depart from me, Satan. God says, okay.
Go ahead and test him. And that's a curveball for sure. God keeps saying the okay. What? God, why?
Why are you doing that? One after the other, like a hammer, it came against Job. The first strike was there was a day his sons and daughters were eating and drinking wine in the older brother's house. A messenger came and said that the oxen were plowing, the donkeys were feeding, and the Sabians. Who are the Sabians?
There was some ancient tribe.
Southeast Arabia, they decided to go on a warpath and they killed the servants and they took the livestock and. That's it. Strike one. Wow. Strike two comes while that man is still speaking.
He couldn't even get the words out of it. He couldn't even get the words out of his mouth. Strike two. And this time, the fire of God fell from heaven, burned up the sheep and the servants, and consumed them. How is it three more strikes after that?
That's like strike 10.
So you got the fire of God. You got these marauding tribes, and then there's a supernatural force that just consumes Job's stuff. And then there's strike three. This time is the Chaldeans, who are supposedly by this time, because I think Job and Abraham overlapped, or maybe Job was a little before Abraham, or maybe after. There is a lot of claim that he was just after Abraham.
Either way. or of the Chaldeans. These are Chaldeans who are attacking Job's livestock. These people are crazy. How do you have time to go attack livestock?
You just saw the fire of God come down from heaven. You're like, well, we're not now a good time. We enrich people in this raid. This is the time to attack Job. And so they come.
Three bands raided the camels, took them away, killed the servants. I mean, leave the servants alone. Tell them, go shoot, go away. You're gonna come live with us. You're gonna serve us now.
Yeah, they're like, no, you're all gonna die.
So that happens. And then we have fourth, which is very painful. What is a fourth strike? This time you have his sons and daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother's house, and suddenly. a great wind came across the wilderness, struck the four corners of the house, Fell on the young people and killed them.
Golly. That's rough. His entire family died in, I would call it a hurricane. Yeah. A tornado, maybe.
And this is, these sequences, these events are a matter of moments. I mean, this is rapid. Yeah, this is like happening in real time. Yes. Like as you're reading it.
That's crazy. And then we find in chapter two, again, the same question is asked because Job hasn't. Denied God. He has maintained his integrity. Question comes back: Have you considered my servant Joe?
You're like, God, what? Please stop considering me. Quit mentioning my name. What do you mean? I'd like to not be.
Stop bragging on me. You tried to incite me, but my man stood strong. He said, oh. Satan's reply is Skin for skin. Touch his body.
It's like, yeah, you were right before, but that didn't really count. Yeah. That didn't really count. Let's up the ante a little bit. Yes.
And so God said, okay, you can go touch his bones, his flesh. but just can't kill him. And um He did. And next thing you find is Job is sitting on an ash heap, and he is covered in boils. And uh he is scraping himself with A piece of posture.
So, what was your question? Is there trauma in the book of Job? How do you see that? Is it fair to say that there's trauma in the book of Job? I would say, I don't know, Nicole, you're the expert.
Trauma, oh, very much so, and lots of it. You know, we always say that bad things happen in threes, and Job is. Instance, it happened in five unbelievable kicks. And this Job was an important person in that time. I mean, he to have that much livestock and that much wealth and that much land and servants, he would have been a high-ranking person.
And so, you have this person who was from prominence to an ash heap scraping the scraping boils with a broken pot shit. Yeah, gross. Oh my gosh, that makes me, that makes my that makes my skin crawl thinking about it.
So, so we typically think of trauma as something really bad happened to me. Yeah. Do we, is that an accurate definition? Like, or do you want to talk about what trauma actually is? Trauma actually means, I mean, if you go back to the Greek word, it actually means a wound.
So. That new saying that people are saying today this is my trauma is not your trauma. Your trauma is not my trauma.
Okay. All right. And it is true, but it is. individual so A trauma can be something very Like to me. you come and tell me that you you've experienced trauma and you tell me what it is.
And in my mind or in my estimation, I think That doesn't seem, but it is to you.
So it's hard to say. that I can't look at you and say, Ryan. You've never experienced trauma. Because, in my estimation, what you've experienced is not trauma. We can't say that.
There's one thing you did clarify: it's your response to the event, not the event itself. That's true. That is true. It's your response. And so.
Your response could be over the top. Or it could be something that's just You know You get shaken up a little bit and you move on. But it's still. It's still a wound. It's still something that will Leave a scar.
And I'm not meaning when I say a scar, I don't mean like physical, well, sometimes, but an emotional scar. Yeah. So is it fair to say then if trauma is a wound and it's it's a pain or a discomfort that we experience? Is every bad thing a trauma and we are just... We just are wounded at various levels.
Or is that the wrong way to think about that? That's a hard question. But I think that we are wounded at various levels because we're individuals. I believe it's a very individual thing. I don't.
You may weather a situation different than I will. Yes. You may be more resilient in one situation, and Dr. Shah may be more resilient in another situation. That's right.
That doesn't change the fact that it's a bad thing that happened to us. It just changes the level at which we have been infected. I think we see that same truth in leadership. Like you're good at things that I'm not good at, and I'm good at things that you're not good at. I think it's the same with the things that we're resilient towards.
Like there are things that could happen to you that might be no big deal that I would be like, oh my goodness, I don't know how in the world I would ever, ever deal with that. Or vice versa. But it definitely affects your identity, your. your security your Your safety, all those things are impacted. Yes, in the event of any type of a trauma that you sustain, it does.
It affects your sense of Security. And what does that mean? That means that, you know, whatever happened now. In my world. I don't feel secure anymore.
Because think about it. If you lose. If your trauma is that you have lost a spouse. lost a child, lost a parent. Then You lose.
That identity. I'm not a husband anymore. I'm not a father anymore. Stuff like that. Yeah.
So. That's difficult to weather when all of a sudden you've been a father. You've been a husband for However, many years. And then all of a sudden, that's taken away. And then you have to grapple with: who am I?
Yeah. At this point, who am I? What? Where is my place? Then we also have the sense of safety.
If you have experienced a traumatic event like a natural disaster or something that was.
Something like that that's out of your control, out of human control, then. you don't feel safe anymore. Mm-hmm. And it could have been some type of an assault, it could be a natural disaster or whatever, then you don't feel. Wherever you are, especially, I mean.
When you think about Job. And I think about the traumas the traumas that he sustained. The next time he heard a s you know, a storm coming and the winds. Oh gosh, imagine like the house settling. You know, like when you're in a house, it starts settling.
What do you think? I mean, I tend to think. He might have been panicking. He might have been feeling. Panicky at that time.
You know, there are people who have had multiple health issues, and it just happened. they let's say they they had Stomach reflex, uh, reflux thing happening.
Next thing you know, they broke their arm. Uh, then, before you know it, they've had some other health issue.
So they're not connected, but you almost feel like my whole body is falling apart. I am dying. I am, my health is getting worse and worse. And it's a matter of time before they're going to be planning my funeral. Yeah, I know.
That's wow. And, and, If that's you, just know. that being human you succumbed to fear. And it's natural, it's understandable. It's not a weakness to feel that way.
Now, hopefully, this broadcast, this video, will help you understand, okay, this is happen, this is me. And I don't need to feel afraid and feel like my whole world is crashing. It's okay. Just kind of take a deep breath, turn to God. get up and just know that you'll be okay.
That arm is going to heal. You may get some medicine for acid reflux or whatever else is happening. God will help you get the right doctor or whatever, or it'll just go away. You don't have to live in perpetual fear. that this is my new state in life where It's like a domino.
Something else is going to fall, man. With Job being ignorant of what was happening in heaven with God and Satan, do you think he spent some time living in that fear? I mean, like, not knowing, is it going to be me next? Or do you think it was more like. Like you ever talk to like soldiers and they got like survivors guilt?
Yeah. Where they're like everybody Perished except for me. Why am I still alive? Like, either one of those, maybe, Job was going through. You know, I said that in my message, unbeknownst to Job, that this was happening.
I think I still stand by that. Job was not aware that a wager had taken place in heaven. But at the same time was Job not aware of how God uses the enemy, the devil, Satan, to accomplish his good purposes in this world. I disagree with that. I believe Job understood that theology very, very well because some of the other things he talks about in his speeches, he understands a lot.
So for us to think that he's a completely clueless about the spiritual warfare happening where God is bragging on him and Satan is doubting his integrity and his honesty and wanting to worship God, I don't think it was he was that clueless. But still. He was unaware that it had begun. Yeah. Yeah.
You think Job was. aware of a deeper spiritual reality that was happening. When five things happen back to back, right? There's got to be sure. If he was a blameless, upright one who feared God, Shandivo, And then some of the things he a lot of things he says in his speeches I think he knew very well.
He knew this was not a random thing. This was not a random thing this happened. It's hard for us to think about that but I for one have fictionalized Job. I think a lot of us do. You know, we talked about that on some of these earlier shows, how we have put Job in the category of like mythological writing.
Yeah, and he wasn't. And we tend to forget that he was a real person and he really did experience all of these things. And So when we hear people say, well, we know that he understood this, well, yeah. But Do you think he ever questioned God?
Well, he did. I mean, it's written in the book of Job that he did question God. You know, why me? And So it's okay. You know, that we see his weakness of saying, why me?
But. But he had enough faith in God to say, Okay, I understand that this is happening. But I have faith that God is going to Work something. I mean, I don't believe he knew what it was. Yeah.
But. That's the one thing that I want. For people to understand, is that Job really did live. He did experience all of this. We have to remember that he was human and we can learn.
We can learn so much through this book. Absolutely. I also. would affirm that and say Job New something was up. And somehow he had the right foundation to keep.
Saying, naked I came, naked I will leave. Blessed be the name of the Lord. Mm-hmm. When his wife, out of pity, I think it was out of sympathy, saying, Just curse God and die, end this, because it's just you're not able to handle this, it's getting worse and worse. And he said, uh should we only accept the good things from God and not evil?
And so all these things he's saying are not just generalities about God or just um Tried phrases that people use even today. I think he was giving some deep theological Powerful statements. Yeah, absolutely. There's something very profound in what both of you two guys just said. I think, especially, Nicole, you talk about like fictionalizing Job.
I think it's easy to do that with, especially Job, but really with all the characters in the Bible, because you know you're supposed to be learning a lesson. Yes. You're not reading it like this is just an historical account. I'm supposed to be getting something from that.
So it's easy to search for the lesson. What is God trying to teach me through this story? And we end up doing that. And I think there's something so beautiful in the fact that we spent so many episodes laying out the historicity of Job because we also, like, yes, it's a story, but it's also a fact. And so, because it's something that God did through his people or his person.
It's not just Job in the story. It's, it's me, it's you, it's the listener. And I think it's kind of interesting something you guys said in the, in the message that you gave, is that it, it really causes you to question your belief about God, you know, not just like, who am I in the midst of this suffering, but who is God that God would allow this? Yeah. And, um, When you begin to question those beliefs, Yeah.
It's Can be a crisis. trying to figure out you know Why would he allow this to happen? And we've got to understand, and we've got to remember that. We are shaped. We become the people we are today.
By things that happen in our childhood, and even things that will happen to us, even in our adulthood, it changes us, it makes us into the people that we continue. to become So we have to remember that our beliefs are challenged. Bah experiences that we have From childhood. all the way through adulthood. We are tested, we're challenged.
But we got to remember what's the ultimate purpose? What's the ultimate purpose of those experiences? God is making us into. The people, the person. That he wants us to be ultimately.
He's changing us to be more like his son Jesus Christ. That's right. I've never read a story in the Bible where God completely blessed someone and they learned who they were supposed to be just through that blessing, just through good times. Typically, it's through fire that we are, we become malleable or ductile, I guess, where God begins to shape us. The good times.
Yes, we can learn a lot of things. We can learn God's favor and God's goodness and God's Blessings in our lives. We can learn, of course, we can learn in all situations, but it's during the hard times where you don't understand why things happen the way they did and why problems continued and why things just became worse. Like for Job, five strikes, and he went from being the most Mm. You know, apparently blessed man in the world to apparently the most cursed man in the world.
Imagine beginning to Yeah. But thank God his worldview was so strong that through all of that, he did not collapse, but he kept going, even though it was very difficult for him.
So he was not like sitting at home and he's like, guys, I know it happened. I know y'all are here to help me, but I'm doing great. I'm actually doing great. I have God's peace on my heart right now. I don't think he said that.
He genuinely felt the pain and the hurt. And all of those things. But he still did not deny God. That's right. I love what you said about worldview because Job saw his situation through the worldview of focusing on God, not seeing God through the worldview of his situations.
And your Christian life is so important. I think that's one thing we talk about on the show a lot: you know, those hard times like Job went through, they're coming. You know what I mean? Your Christian life is not just because it's right, you're fortifying yourself so that, like you said, Dr. Shah, when things come and you do start to question your worldview, it doesn't crack, it doesn't crumble under the pressure.
Make sure you join us next time, same time, same place. We're going to be diving into this topic further here on the Clearview Today Show. Thanks to permanent guests Nicole Shah for being on today's episode. Thank you, Nicole. Thanks to our sponsors for supporting and making today's episode possible.
And if this is your first time, like we say at the end of every episode, we want to tell you we love you. We're glad that you're here. And if you're dealing with a traumatic situation in your life right now, a difficult season that you're walking through, we want to pray with you and pray for you.
So write in and let us know how we can do that. 252-582-5028. Or you can email us at contact at clearviewtodayshow.com. And you can always support us financially at Abadanshah.com forward slash give. We love you guys.
We'll see you tomorrow with Clearview Today.
