The enemy stood before God and accused Job right to God's face. He said, He's only blessing you because you're blessing him. We see that as a bad thing, but listen, how many times do we think the same thing about ourselves? Job might not have fallen into that trap, but we do it every single day. Join us as we dig further into the account of Job here on the Three Today Show.
You're listening to Clearview Today with Dr. Abadan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis. Welcome to the Clearview Today Show.
We have been talking about the book of Job all week, and man, we are learning so much. You know, we're talking about the historicity of it, how it fits into the biblical narrative, all of these mythological, quote-unquote, mythological aspects that people struggle with. And we're going on talking about all these things because how you approach the story really, really, truly matters and how you glean the wisdom that you're supposed to glean from it. But before we get into any of that, we want to welcome our host, Dr. Abaddon Shah, who's a PhD in New Testament textual criticism, professor, Carolina University author, full-time pastor, and the host of today's show.
Dr. Shah, welcome to the studio. Welcome. I'm excited. This is going to be another fun episode of Learning and Growing on the Book of Job.
Absolutely.
So excited to continue that conversation. Before we do that, I want to remind you guys about the new EP. Out from Clearview Worship called Cafe Sessions Volume One. It's fully acoustic and it is a wonderful blessing for you and for your life. It's very vibey.
It's very enjoyable to listen to. That's right. There's been a lot of people who have texted in and said it's not on Apple Music. It's not on iTunes. Hey, listen, I don't know what to tell you.
We turned it into the distributor, the distributor. It is on Spotify. It is on Amazon. It's on Rhapsody. It's pretty much everywhere else.
Apple Music and iTunes seem to have some holdup. There's copyright issues since they're all cover songs.
So just be patient. It will be there. But listen, who's even using iTunes anymore anyway? That's so 2003. David raised his hand.
Hey, can I tell you something? I'm using iTunes too. Really? Yeah, I've been searching on the iTunes store for Spotify House. Yeah, most people are on Spotify.
And guess what? Not only can you listen to our EP on Spotify, you can also listen to this show. That's right. Can I tell you something? I didn't know that for the longest time.
I think the first full year of doing this show, I did not know we were on Spotify. We had one of our listeners who has been listening, I'm pretty sure since the beginning, send us a screenshot of their Spotify rapped and top. Podcast was the clear. That's what you love to see, Dr. Shaw, on the Spotify wrapped.
That means that that means we were one of their most listened to shows for the entire year. Yeah, that's pretty cool. That is awesome. Dr. Shaw, we've been talking about the book of Job, right?
And how suffering comes into this life, how we should deal with it in the face of suffering. And for Christians who have grown up in the church, maybe it's tempting to think, I already, I get the book of Job. I don't know about this whole Satan coming before God stuff and about dinosaurs being on the earth and ice ages. I don't know about all that, but the principles I pretty much get, right? If God is having you go through a hard time, then you just got to have faith.
And it's not only the most surface-level interpretation you could take from the book of Job, but a lot of times that's not even the message. Exactly. And what we have learned in the past, I would say, three episodes on the book of Job is that Job is deeper and has a timeless message. And I would say it's a very timely message because where we are in our culture today, where we are in the church today, we have. We have become so surfacy.
And it's probably because of lack of biblical preaching. Maybe it's because of lack of depth in understanding the Bible. When we come to a book like the book of Job, we are using the current. Um Approaches to the book of Job, which are not very helpful. I mention the name of Will Kynes, who is a scholar in the book of Job, has written articles, he has written commentaries or written his dissertation on the book of Job, but also written a commentary, kind of like a layman's commentary with his father.
Yeah. Book of Job is not just a wisdom literature that you peel away the husks and get right to the wisdom, and that's it. No, the narrative matters. And the theology matters. We have to look at it in its context and see.
It's about Christ. When you look at it in its canonical context, it's about Jesus Christ.
So, we miss so much, and I think we have missed a lot over the years. I think that's a great point. You know, we usually don't even bring Christ into the discussion until we get to the whole, I know my Redeemer lives, and at last I'll see him upon the earth. Before that, I think a lot of us don't even think about Jesus when we think about the book of Job. Yeah, exactly.
There's so much to examine. I mean, it's such a complex book, and I love being able to walk through it. And if you haven't already listened to those episodes, I would encourage you to find a podcasting platform, go back and listen to those previous episodes because Dr. Shah lays out the context for the book of Job, how we rightly understand it, and the view, the lens where we need to see the story of Job. And it's critical to your understanding.
So, if you haven't already, go back and listen to those episodes. We talked about this a little bit on the last episode, but I thought today maybe we could dive into it even deeper, where Job understands his relationship with God, and yet at the same time, he doesn't fully understand the power that the enemy has over him. You know what I mean by that? Like, there's an entire realm. in heaven or in God's presence.
That is actively working, I want to say in this situation, against him, but that's not, you know what I mean. Yeah. It's working to affect him or to impact him. And he's sort of clueless of it. Right.
But the thing that's very important, and we sort of left it at that cliffhanger moment, is that God is the one who initiates that conversation with Satan, who has right now and will to the end of time have access into the presence of God. Revelation 12:10 tells us. The moment when his axis will be cut off. And he will be cast down. Until then, he comes and he accuses.
believers before God. He's the accuser of our brethren who accuse them before God day and night. And what is he accusing them of? He's accusing them of hypocrisy. These are hypocrites.
You are at Job's time, sending someone to save them. Since Jesus came. You sent someone to save them. But their love for you, their obedience to you, is because. of how you bless them.
It's only because of the benefits that they love you. Take away the benefits and they'll curse you. They don't like you. Which is exactly what he said about Job. Right.
And so There are several powerful lessons that are there. Lesson number one, Is that God is the one who initiated this conversation? We sort of mentioned that in passing, but. After all the havoc that Satan wreaks on Job and his family, There is no mention of Satan. You're right.
He's done. Yeah. It's just dealing with Job and God. And you know what's funny is like, not only did he not, not only did he initiate the conversation with Satan, he's the one that brings up Job's name. Right.
Job doesn't go. I mean, Satan doesn't go before God and say, have you thought about Job? He's only doing it. God is like the one, have you considered Job? Right.
So God is constantly bragging on us. Right. And Satan is constantly bringing up our flaws.
So, in the process, then God shows to prove us.
Now, it does not mean that everyone who has been saved and walking with Jesus, your family is going to die, your livestock's going to be burnt, you're going to have Sabians and Chaldeans raid your home in that subdivision and steal everything. They're going to tear up your yard, your hydrangea bushes. I'm getting a ring alert. There's a band of marauders in my driveway. There's a vandal, like, not a not a well, that joke didn't.
I was trying to say a vandal, like the people who sacked Rome, not like a vandalism. Yeah, I mean, same thing. That's where they got the name vandalism from. As I said, I was like, oh, no, that joke is good. And you'll be sitting on the street corner where the little dumpsters is.
If you live in an apartment complex, maybe the dumpster. Yeah, you're right. Sit by the dumpster. You got a little cardboard box. You're washing your hair with rainwater.
It's not good. And you're scratching yourself, all the sores on your body. Not good. Not a good idea. I don't think that necessarily has.
But What is the principle there is that God is constantly bragging on us. Yeah, that's right. Right. Now, there may be moments that you may not be blameless and upright, fearing God and shunning evil, and that's how we should be by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit.
So let's strive for that. But God is bragging on us. That's right. And Satan accuses us every step. And then God.
chooses to prove us. No. They love me because they love me. They serve me because they serve me. They worship me because they worship me.
They want to do those things. They're not forced to. They're not manipulating me. Yeah, that's amazing that God has more faith in us than We do in heaven. That is.
It's interesting because we are so quick to prove the enemy right. You know what I mean? We're quick to say, and not even in the way that it's like, all right, God, you're making hard times come against me. You're punishing me. You're whatever.
So I'm done. It's not even that we do that. It's like, Lord, what can I do? What can I do? You know, what have I done wrong?
And God is saying, you've missed the entire point. You're playing into his. Mind games. You're right. Don't fall for his acc accusations.
His accusations. Yeah. Yeah. It it adds a whole layer. I mean, we're talking about a courtroom drama, but it adds a whole layer of that, you know, Satan bringing those accusations, but God, God bragging on us and God coming to our defense and God saying, No, they're doing that because they love me.
But but but but you see, they didn't go to church this Sunday. Yeah. They sat down to eat and they didn't pray first. Right. They didn't thank you.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they right now are working for self rather than working for you. Mm-hmm.
What do you think God does at that moment? And again, I don't want to get into some positivity. Preaching, you know, that's not where we stand. You know, where we stand is the word of God is our guide, and we call sin sin.
So, so don't think that we are here just kind of like as a feel-good-good moment. Um, and I'm not going to mention names of some of those preachers from yesterday's or today who just have a positive approach to life. But God brags on you. He's not up there saying, look, what a terrible person you are.
Now does he brag on you when you sin? Probably not. I would say no. But he wants to draw you to repentance. And that's what he's doing.
But he brags on you. I mean, if you go back to the prodigal son. Story is is the is the father who waits on his son to come home. He's not the father who writes off his son and says, I'm done with him. He's dead to me.
I'm a. Just pour all of my My grace and my And turn my will over to my elder son. Or I'm going to adopt another son. I'm going to take one of the slaves as one of my sons. None of that.
He waits for his son to come home. That's right. It's a very different approach. And we have. We have allowed the world This silly world, this atheistic, agnostic world.
to color our view of God. That God is this. This um Intolerant, sadomasochistic. Just belligerent Child beater. angry Person upstairs.
Right. He's a mean dad. He's a mean, horrible dad. This desert religion dad. Why are you buying into that?
Right. Of course, our God is a God of wrath. Yeah. Right. But he took that wrath and poured upon Jesus.
That's right. And all you have to do is believe that he is your substitute for your sins. Talking about God bragging on Job, too, I think is really tempting for people to say, Well, he bragged on Job because Job did all the right things. But God knew the end of the story. God's point wasn't, look, Job is doing all the right stuff, so I love him and I'm gonna brag on him.
His point was, even after all the chaos you're about to inflict, I know that Job is going to, and not just I have faith, he knows because he's God, right? He knows that Job is going to still love him and still serve him, right? Yeah, it's Job's character that he's he's bragging on.
So, going back to Job chapter one and verse 10. Satan says, Does God does Job fear God for nothing? That's verse 9. Have you not made a hedge around him and around his household and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land.
Now, even there, I think he is laying out a fact. God has blessed. And I think daily we need to thank God for everything we have. Right. even in the midst of suffering and pain, We should still thank God for how good He is.
Amen. Amen. Because that's what He does for us. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
And so Satan's suggestion in verse eleven is, but now. Stretch out your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse you to your face. You do this. Yeah. But God doesn't do that, by the way.
You'll see that in a moment. Yeah. But he's telling God, go ahead and you do this. Yeah, you afflict Job. You take all of those things away.
You harm the things that he has. Oh, that's a good point. I didn't even consider that. Yeah. That Satan is saying, you heard it.
Satan tells God to do it. And God says, no, I'm not going to do it. You do it. Yeah. And the Lord said to Satan, Behold, all that he has is in your power.
I didn't even catch that. That's such an important paradigm for people to grasp. God does not send the evil, God does not cause the calamity, God does not cause the bad things in our life. He may allow them. But he is not the source of evil, not the source.
For a greater purpose. And I know if you're a cynic today, you're going to say, greater purpose. What a great God you have that can even protect you. Can even stand up to defend you. Oh, he is.
He will. But as we live in this life that is a fallen world, a sinful world, even though that world is in the process of redemption because of Jesus Christ, and one day that entire redemption will happen in the new heavens, new earth, the whole creation is groaning for that day. We all are suffering until that day. I think even here we see that Satan doesn't have free reign. He doesn't get to just do whatever he wants to.
God tamps down his power, and Satan only operates within the parameters that God establishes.
Well, even talking like what you just mentioned, Dr. Shah, how people are like, well, I just can't imagine that he would do this. How is this going to serve the greater good? I think we're so plagued by this Disney happy ending myth that every individual life has to have that cathartic happy ending. And it's never promised that it was for Job's personal greater good.
Think about how history has been transformed because the book of Job exists. Think of all the millions and millions and millions of people. I would say billions of people throughout history who've gotten saved thanks to the book. Like what Job went through absolutely undeniable. I would say even someone who doesn't believe in God would not deny that it worked for the greater good of humanity.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And so, yeah, here we see God is the one who is signing off. On this work order. He is the one whose signature is in the big letters, the final signature. This is God. And the Lord said to Satan, behold, all that he has is in your power.
Only do not lay a hand on his person. Means there are some limits.
Now, of course, God one by one is going to take some limits away because Satan is going to up the ante and say, well, okay, but then how about this?
Okay, you can do that, but not this.
Okay, you can do that, but not this.
Yeah. I've often wondered about that. I've often wondered why put the limits on in the first place. Maybe I guess maybe it's to, I know thematically, I guess it's to demonstrate Job's unwavering loyalty and devotion to God. I would say to help us understand trauma.
The levels of trauma. In fact, this, you know, we're going to be talking about this. My wife and I will be addressing the subject of trauma, how trauma Is on different stages and different levels in people's lives. Not everybody's trauma is the same. And with that not everybody's healing is the same.
So Job Book again, isn't this a primitive book? Yeah, this was like scrawled with leaves and berries on a rock. No, it absolutely from Lion King carved it into a tree. By the way, just now, in 2025, 4,000 years later, finally, they're applying trauma. Therapy reading to the book of Job.
Really? Yeah. It took that 4,000 years for people to finally get to the point and say, hey, I. I see a lot of things that we have looked up in the, what is it, the DSM DSM four, or five at this point. We have five TR, is it correct?
Something like that. Finally, Oh, wait. It's all there. And it's been there this whole time. Is it because they classified it as wisdom, like as a myth?
I mean, it's just that our brains did not click in yet.
So we didn't realize that, oh, there is. Trauma thing happening here, these are stages, and it's kind of funny how God put it in there and it's been lit. It's been those truths have been there for thousands of years, but only now we think, like, oh, wait, no, we invented that. This is like pop psychology of the day.
Sometimes I like to think about God as a dad lens, and I know that God is a much more perfect and beautiful, wonderful father than any of us that could ever be. But I like to think of him as a dad lens where, like, your kid comes to you and they've just figured out something that's completely obvious. Like, daddy, look, daddy, look, and you're like, Yeah, good job. Like, now you finally arrived at the conclusion that I knew all along, but I'm glad that you. Oh, Holden's on the stage now where, like, I'll do something, like, I'll open a jar for him.
Yeah. And then I'll just put, just set the jar back on it, he'll open it and be like, I did it. I did it. And I was like, yeah, man, you're strong. Good job.
You're really strong. Good job. Yeah. There are several good books if people want to research in this area. One is called God, Trauma, and Wisdom Therapy, a commentary on Job by Norman Habel.
Now, Norman Habel is an Old Testament scholar, has written on Job before, but this particular work, he's looking at it through the lens of trauma. And there's some others as well that I will mention along the way. Yeah, so good. It's helpful to think about, you know, as Job is going through this trauma, how we can map that onto our experience. You know, not everybody experiences trauma the same way.
Not everybody experiences healing from trauma the same way, like you said, Dr. Shah, but Job's journey helps us in our own. It helps us as we kind of think about the things that we've endured, the things that have been brought into our lives, how we rightly think about not only those situations, but God's goodness in light of that evil.
Well, look at Job's response to, like, I think, I mean, there's tons of ways that people would respond to traumatic events like what Job goes. Goes through, but I think that typically what we do is just desperation. Like, I know why I would do this.
Okay, I gotta, I gotta get disciplined. It's time to get back on the, and you gotta think, like, all these things that Job did, these offerings, these, these, uh, these things that it lays him out for being blameless for, it doesn't, he doesn't jump back into those things and say, okay, God, I'll do even more. He sits and he asks, and he talks and he laments. And, you know, I think there's, there's wisdom to that. And I know we'll be talking about it, but I think Job's response.
Really is what we're looking at, right? That's right. That's right. You know, I mentioned Norman Habel, but those of you who are interested, recently a scholar just did her PhD from Liberty University and published through, I want to say, TNT Clark Press and then IVP. And it's a trauma theory reading of the book of Job, Michelle Keener.
And then she's also written another work called Comfort in the Ashes: Explorations in the Book of Job to Support Trauma Survivors. Wow. Michelle Keener. Michelle Keener. Any relation to Craig Keene?
No, no, I don't think so. I was thinking. That is a kind of a unique lesson. Yeah, that is. Yeah, it is.
So God slacks the leash a little bit for Satan. And that sort of precipitated this discussion on trauma therapy because. Why did God do that? Why didn't He say, Go ahead, go all guns blazing, Satan, do what you want to. I know He's going to hang in there.
But stages and that's why we're discussing trauma therapy, because trauma comes in different stages or There are different kinds of traumas that people face. And the book of Job amazingly lays it out for us.
Well, it's also funny because God knows how Job is going to respond. I wonder if Job knew how he would respond. For instance, when, like, I like to think that if traumatic events happen to me, That I'll deal with it, you know, with not stoicism, but I'll be strong and I'll, but until it happens, I've got no clue. I've genuinely got no clue how I would react. God does.
Absolutely.
But then I read the book of Job and I start to wonder: like, these doubts that Job was having, these questions, they're coming from the core. Do you think, did he know that that was going to be his response, or is it just he is discovering it too?
Well, I think we can all see that in our own lives, too. I mean, I can think about times in my life where there are situations that I faced, and I thought, man, this is like. This is the end. Like, I'm going to be deregulating. This isn't the big one.
But I wasn't. I was able to make it through, you know, with the help of godly counsel and others. And of course, God getting me through the situation. And then there are other situations that I regard like, oh, that's hardly anything. But those were the ones that kind of, you know, wrecked the whole ship.
And I was like, I didn't think this was going to affect me this way, but it did.
So I think we see God's wisdom here on display in allowing Satan. Methodically uh more and more ground instead of just right out of the gate. Have at it. Right. You know, to go back to earlier what John said about did God know?
And the answer is: yes, He knew. He knew that Job will endure. He knew that this is going to completely wreck Job's world. whether with his family, with his possessions, and with his health, God knew all of that. God also knew that Job will come out of it with a very fresh.
living understanding His son Jesus Christ. See, the end of the book of Job is not like Job saying, Yeah, see, I told you, I told you I didn't do anything wrong. I told you God bragged on me, and Satan suggested this, and this is why it happened. I knew it. No, he doesn't.
I was right. I was right. He doesn't do that, even though that part is true. That what was happening to Joe was not because Joe was doing something wrong. What happened to Job was because he was doing something right.
That's hard. That's hard to hear. I want to be rewarded for my good deeds. I want to be rewarded for being faithful. I don't want to be quote unquote punished.
Right. But in the end, Job is called to repent, and Job repents in dust and ashes because he doubted God. He doubted. God's Goodness in his life. He doubted that God.
In the moment Was, I'm not sure what he's up to. He didn't say, Let me go check the box and make sure you're appeased, because that would be very pagan. That would be like the Mesopotamians, the Sumerians, the Egyptians. That would be very much like, hey, you must have messed up somewhere. Please the gods and you will have the blessings again.
Do some invocations, do some sorcery, some magic, some incantations. Do something, Job. Let's get with it. Called the best of the best. In fact, his friends who came, and we're going to look at that over the next few weeks, they gave advices which were the best of the wisdom of the time.
The best Prescriptions of the time. And In essence, they were saying, Job, you're messing up. Yeah. You're doing something wrong. Fix it.
Yeah. That was the culture of the people around them. Right, right. And again, I'm being very simplistic because when we unpack their speeches, which we typically just flip through and get to the good stuff, when you unpack their speeches, they're not just Just repetition or just some poetry. Um Put together by s caveman to rhyme here and there.
to fill Fill pages, yeah. Yeah, I think they've always been regarded as sort of like the dumb, bumbling friends that come and give him just bad advice. Like, these are terrible friends. You should surround yourself with better people. And we just kind of, like you said, just flip over quickly.
Because we want to get to Job and God, but those friends that are talking to him, there's some deep wisdom in that. There's a reason. That's a huge chunk of the book of Job. Yeah, exactly. And that's when we need to unpack because that's where we will see our mistakes.
Our misunderstandings of the living true triune gods. True nature. Because you're going to see and go, wow, I am with Bildad over here. Yes. I'm with Zophar over here.
I think you're 100% right. I mentioned this on a couple of other shows, but there have definitely been times when I've been reading Job and my devotions here these past few weeks where I'm starting to side with them. Yeah. Knowing that they're wrong. Yeah.
Right. Knowing that they're wrong. But I'm like, I'm looking at Job and I'm putting myself in his situation. And I'm like, man, if I was one of Job's friends, I guarantee you, I would say the same exact thing. I'm like, dude.
And we do. You're annoying. You're self-righteous. Humble yourself. Why do you think that's such a pervasive idea among Christians that.
If you are encountering difficulty, you've messed up. Yeah. I mean, that's because we're human and that's what we're conditioned to be. We don't understand the grace of God. We don't understand what salvation is really about.
It's the righteousness of Christ applied to us. You know, that transfer, that imputation. It's not a big deal. We roll past those things and revert back to our old nature. And that's where the problems come in.
It's also funny. And maybe you can say a quick word on this. I know we're running out of time, but it's funny how I also was, because I was reading what Job's friends are saying. It sounds like a lot of modern day preaching. It is.
And singing. And singing. Hey, he's God. You're not God. Humble yourself.
Like, dang. Yeah, I've definitely heard that. And I guess a cliffhanger moment. Yeah. Elihu, who's not part of the first three, he's different.
His name is more of a Hebrew name, which means he is one who is coming from a biblical perspective. Does not mean he's giving right advice. Right, right. But at least he's coming from a biblical perspective. And his statement to Job is not that Job you must be doing something wrong.
His statement to Job is: Job. You are too self-righteous. Yes. You are too full of yourself. You need to humble yourself before God.
And Joe is like, I am not self-righteous. I lived my life in humility and I give God all the credit. But something is wrong here. Yeah. And that's what I'm saying.
Like when Job, it's funny because you see someone in this position, and we really are out of time, but you see someone in this position and they won't give an inch. And it's like, okay, I'm starting to understand why this has happened to you, Job. You start to realize, oh my goodness, I'm the bad friends in the store. I'm the wrong one. I'm the one giving bad advice.
Yeah. Guys, make sure you jump back into Marwit and continue this discussion. Man, how relevant is the book of Job to our lives today? It's impacting us here on the show, and we know that it's impacting you who are listening and watching at home as well. If you're tuning in for the first time, I want to say thank you.
Glad that you're here. We love interacting with you guys.
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