You're listening to Clearview Today with Dr. Abadan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis. Welcome back to the Clearview Today Studio.
We've got a great conversation, great host, great everything here at Clearview Today. But we want to welcome our host, Dr. Abadan Shah, who's a PhD in New Testament textual criticism, professor at Carolina University, author, full-time pastor, and host of today's show. Dr. Shah, great to have you in the studio.
Thank you. Good to be here with you guys. Amen. I'm excited to continue the conversation from yesterday. Tell us further about Paul's doctrine of election in the book of Romans.
Your introduction. Reminded me of the Lego movie. Have you ever seen the Love Batman? I have not. You saw the Lego Batman Doctor show?
No. I started watching it and I fell asleep. There is a song in the Lego movie called Everything is Awesome. Uh-huh. And it's, you shouldn't get up.
It's a lot of fun. I probably will. In fact, we may, if I can get around the copyright issue, we may make it the theme song to this show. I don't know about that. It is pretty awesome on the show.
I have seen Lego Batman.
Well so Lego Batman is a spin-off of Lego. Oh, same people? Yeah, yeah. I mean, I guess that would make it. Lego Batman was in the Lego movie.
And then got his own movie. You know, I got into a lot of trouble online for saying that I genuinely thought Lego Batman was one of the most faithful adaptations of a Batman movie I've ever seen. And people got really angry with me.
Well, because they want Batman to be dark and edgy. But I'm telling you, if you read Batman, Lego Batman is the Batman freaking. All right, go for it. Guys, before we jump in today, we wanna just remind you that Dr. Shaw is on Prey Radio at 7 a.m.
every day, Monday through Friday. If you're not already on Prey.com. Make sure you go do that. It's a free app. Download it.
It's great, great way to follow along. And I was like, whyyainalpray.com. Exactly. No reason not to. Why aren't you on there?
It's a great way to grow in your walk with God, but also it's a great way to engage with Dr. Shah's content. Every day of the week, there's a new piece of content dropping from Dr. Shah.
So Monday through Friday, we've got Dr. Shah at 7 a.m. on pray.com. Saturdays is Discerning Doctrine. Yeah.
No. No, I'm sorry. Saturdays is the lighthouse. Yes. Devotional.
And then Sundays is a sermon. And then there's an exclusive series on Pray.com that's discerning doctrine. That's exactly right. We also have two new releases coming out very, very soon. One of them is a 30 Days Devotional, 30 Days of Seeing Christ in Judges.
We're going to give you guys a release date very soon. The other is a new EP, some original music. You guys didn't know we produced original music over here at Cleavage Church. It's called Cafe Sessions Volume 1. It's an acoustic worship session.
We're very, very happy about it. Very excited about it. That's going to be coming out in the next couple of weeks as well. And we'll have a release date very soon for you guys. That's right.
All right, Dr. Shah, I got a question for you.
So, there it is. There's my theme song.
So, this is gonna be a little different. This is not money that you get, this is money that you actually have to pay.
So, you're gonna pay $50,000. One-time fee. That's a lot. My money. Yeah, you don't have to pay a million though.
You're going to pay $50,000. But you now have the ability to To shut down any gathered speech that you want to once a year.
So I'll give you an example. If there's, let's say we go to like some giant mega Christian festival or whatever, and someone's up there preaching harmful doctrine. to like 100,000 people in a stadium. You can go up there. And be like, Hey guys, guys.
This is down. You're done. Get off the stage. Not only will that happen, but everyone in the crowd is on your side. They cheer for you.
$50,000. And it's not just. Yeah, and you can do that once a year, but you don't have to pay $50,000 the one time. You pay $50,000 one time, but once a year, you get to shut down any speech. It will like or like gathered event.
Like, it could be like a pride parade. It could be like a pro-abortion thing. Yes, a pro-abortion thing. Whatever it is, you can choose. You can go there, not only shut it down successfully and instantly, but everyone there is guaranteed to be on your side.
It could be a flat earth TED Talk. A Flat Earth or TED Talk. Oh, there you go. I feel like everyone already disrespects them. No need to go after the Flat Earthers.
So. Being who I am, which is I'm proud to be an American and stand for. Those values that make us American, which is the right to free speech. Uh-huh. That goes against my conviction.
Yes. So I completely disagree with those people. But if you notice in the past, A few years, I would say, I don't know, maybe a decade, maybe, maybe less, where people have become violent and hateful against somebody. And usually it's the left that does that to the right. Yeah, 100%.
Isn't that funny? Yes. Because the people on the right are usually accused of being bullying and violent and just this animalistic. When I say animalistic, I'm not talking about that way. I'm just saying like an animal, just like they'll go at you, hacky, ferocious.
Mm-hmm. That's false. Yeah, that's right. It's usually the other side. And it's demonstrated.
You can see that it's false. Yes. All over. You can see it on social media. You can see on the news.
They turn to violence when they cannot. reason with people and you cannot respond reasonably to people You turn to violence. That's true. And lately, we have seen the left do that time and time again. They're trying to shut you up.
They'll throw the The The placard in your face, so they will find some way to keep your mouth shut. I respect that.
So, you're saying, given the opportunity, you wouldn't use their own tactic against them? No, I would never do that. Gotcha. Because we let people talk. Yeah.
Unfortunately. We don't get the opportunity to talk because we are bullied or punched or whatever. And and that Or just even preemptively labeled. Like, oh, oh, you're you're a conservative. Oh, okay, you're a racist.
Hate speech.
So why would I spend? Yeah, why would I spend my time talking to a racist? I'm not even going to talk to you. Yeah. I'm not racist.
You've already labeled that. And then because by that label, you've already colored other people's opinions. Yeah. See, it's a very social Marxist agenda tactic, which is to silence the opposition. Americans never were like that.
We've never done that. Silence the opposition.
Now, we may, you know. Tell you, like, you're not going to speak in our event.
Okay, we'll stop you there, but we're not going to come to your event and say we're going to shut you down. Right. We're going to shut you down. That's a very leftist behavior.
So. I'm going to keep that 50,000 in my pocket right here and use it to do some good in the world. There you go. I love it. I love it.
Our verse of the day today is coming to us from Genesis chapter 12, verse 1.
Now, the Lord had said to Abram, Get out of your country, from your family, and from your father's house to a land that I will show you. This has sort of been at the core of our conversation for this past week, Dr. Shah.
This idea of election, we sort of think we've ironed out pretty much that when we talk about this idea of election, we're not even talking about salvation. God chooses some people to be saved and some people to not be saved. I think in the very first episode that we handled, we sort of ironed that out. But we've gotten.
Sort of deep into this conversation of, but God does choose who He will work through, He chose Abraham. And yesterday we sort of talked about how deep into that are you willing to go. And I think that's kind of where, if you want to kind of recap, you know, do you say, okay, well, what was it about Abraham? Or do you just say, hey, That's who God chose and I'm okay with that. Yeah, I would say the fact is God chose Abraham.
And I'm gonna accept that as God's prerogative. And I'm glad that he chose somebody, and Abram and Sarah were the ones. But I can always now come back and say, why Abram? And why not somebody else?
Well, who's to say that God did not ask other people? Mm-hmm. Who is to say that God did not talk to other families down the street in Ur of the Chaldeans? Right. Of course he he may have.
We don't have the information. They may have said no. Just like Isaiah. Uh oh Who who shall go for us? And Isaiah is the one who responds, Here I am, Lord.
Send me.
So, more than likely, Abram and Sarah were the ones who said, Here we are, send us. And they left Now, if you know anything about Abram and Sarai, who later on became Abraham and Sarah, they were. Royalties The Bible talks about that. They were royalties, and extra-biblical literature tells us that they were. that she was a princess.
And even the Bible tells us that. But even Abraham was the king of Damascus. Mm-hmm. And some of the cities they founded along the Euphrates were based on family names, which means they were. Powerful people, they could have said.
No, we're good. Right. We don't need to do this. Would you have left a perfectly go good bread brick and mortar home and And lived in tents. I mean, that's what the Bible says, right?
In the Hebrews, it says they chose to live in tents. uh waiting for a city Whose builder and maker is God. A city that has foundations. Whose builder and maker is God?
So even though they were in Ur, which was an ancient city. Ur had, you know, when you do read archaeological works, you see that they had buildings and foundations and all that. Mm-hmm. I know I would not have said yes. Yeah.
I'm not a I like hiking and I like camping and all that. But I like more like the glamping. Yeah, yeah. Right. I like it for a window of time.
You like Goofy movies? Back to Pete My camping. You remember how in Goofy Movie when Pete shows up with that big RV that's got the hot tub and the pop-up camper that like boom, boom. It's got like a bowling alley and stuff in it. That's the kind of camping I like, too.
Yeah. I would not have said. Let me drag my wife and me at What, sixty, seventy years of age? you know, treasure cross the uh this this Mesopotamian landscape and see Where are we going again? I'll show you when we get there.
Yeah, that's rough. Yeah, I'll just do it. Sure. I mean, are we going to like. to the north towards the Black Sea.
No. Are we gonna go to the Persian Gulf? No. But you're gonna go in the opposite direction, keep walking. That took some faith.
Abraham was a man of faith for sure. You know, one of the comments we got on our video, because yesterday, the verse of the day was Romans 9:33, that Jesus was a stumbling stone, a rock of offense. And one of the comments we got was: if that's the case, then aren't we the new elect? If they stumbled over the. The cornerstone.
Are they still the Jewish? Is Israel still the elect, or are we not the elect?
Well, if you read Romans chapter 10 and 11, you see very quickly that Paul is telling us that, number one, God chose Israel because he wanted to choose Israel to bring his people. promised one into this world. Uh God. uh chose them to service, not to salvation. God chose them.
In spite of Some of the things they did.
So you know, you know, in chapter nine Moses and the worship of the golden calf. We covered that like a couple of shows ago. They were worshiping the golden calf. Mm-hmm. Moses was pleading for them.
God's like no, uh some some will die. Oh, take my name off. Like, that's not for you to decide. Don't try to teach me about mercy. That's when God said, I will have mercy on whomever I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.
Don't teach me about that. I have chosen them, and I'm going to show mercy to them.
Some will be punished for this. You stay in your lane I have called them. I'm going to finish my promises. Moses, I mean, I'm sorry, Paul brings that up to tell us that. It's not because they always deserved it.
Right. That's right. Second evidence that God did this on his own free will. is Pharaoh and his stubbornness. Here you have God speaking to Pharaoh.
Pharaoh represented Egypt. Doesn't mean Egyptians could not be saved. In fact, some of them were. They left Egypt along with the people of Israel, known as the mixed multitude. We forget about that a lot.
Yeah, I forget about that. They went. But. Pharaoh was standing against the purposes of God. And in the process, he brought such heavy Burden and heavy strikes and curses against Egypt.
Mm-hmm. And so God said, Here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to make an example out of you so that you cannot pursue. my people any more. They will make it to the promised land.
Now they were supposed to make it to the promised land in like a week or two. That's how far they are. Took him forty years. Not because of Pharaoh. Pharaoh's Pharaoh was done.
Yeah. Pharaoh was done. His army was belly up in the In the Red Sea. Right. It's not like they were running from some present danger.
No, they don't host. No, they God's people, the Hebrews or the people of Israel, the children of Israel, brought that upon him themselves and they refused to go in. And all because of fear. You know, I can either bring Faith and hope in your heart, or I can bring fear just by the way I speak. I can tell you how things are tough and rough, and man, we gotta.
The whole time I may be telling you how great things will happen, but. But I can communicate to you in such a way that when you leave, you will walk away with more trepidation, fear, hopelessness. That's true. And it's not faith if you don't act on it, right? Like, it's not like they, you can't say that they had faith that God was going to take them to that land if they weren't ready to act on it when the time came.
The whole point of that is that God completely dismantled. Pharaoh in the Egyptian army.
Okay. That had nothing to do with the people of Israel. God did that. Why? Because he wanted to protect his people.
Why? Because he wan wanted to protect his promise. What is the promise? The promise that his son was coming. The third example was Jeremiah and the potter's wheel.
Here, if you know the context in which God said these words to Jeremiah, they go to the potter's house, God shows him what the potter is doing and tells him that will the thing formed say to him who formed it, Why have you made me like this? The whole point is, God's going to bring his people back. That was the promise that was being. reiterated or reaffirmed in Jeremiah.
So The reason uh all of this this this third evidence is given uh is To declare God's sovereignty over the nations. Over creation.
So From their own disobedience. from other nations like Egypt's disobedience, Or From um this this half the people are gone, the other half are left. And they are not believing that God is faithful. Nonetheless, God is faithful. You see how different scenarios God is saying, I have picked them, I have picked them, I'm going to show mercy to them, I am not finished with them.
And the fourth evidence you find are prophecies from Isaiah and Hosea. No, this is the one we actually didn't have. We were going to talk about. Two shows ago, we didn't have time to actually get to this point. That's correct.
From Romans 9, 2. Chapter 9, verse 25. Through verse 29, there are two. different references mentioned of each from Hosea and Isaiah. Mm-hmm.
Now, if you know anything about Hosea and Isaiah, they're both books that talk about how God is faithful when his people are not. Mm-hmm. Hosea is written about this man, Hosea, who's called by God to take a prostitute to be his wife.
Now some people say she was not a prostitute when she was called.
Some say she was, and she went back to her trade. Either way. The whole point is. She was unfaithful and yet Josea had to keep going back to her and bring her Back. Right.
So also God's people were unfaithful and God had to go back and get them and buy them off the auction block. Yeah. So What is the lesson here? God Pick them. And And still cared for them in spite of their unfaithfulness to them, to him.
I mean The worst kind of unfaithfulness. Like they s they were not just like raped or taken away. They went out there and sold themselves into Into sexual sin. Which kind of d I mean, I see exactly where you're going with this because we will turn around today and go: Israel is. is um They have denied the Messiah.
They have rejected the Christ. Right. And what you're saying is these arguments don't actually add anything. Because they did that before, and God still said. I'm still going to come after you.
That's right. And you will still be my people. That's right. The story of Hosea reminds us that God's faithfulness to Israel is not based on Israel's faithfulness to God. Right.
It says right here in Romans 9:26, and it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, You are not my people, there they shall be called sons of the living God. What some people have done is they've said, Oh, that's talking about the Gentiles. They are not my people, but now they're called. Wait, what are you talking about? Context.
Not just the context in Romans, but also in Hosea. It's about Israel. The context is about Israel being God's people, even when they are unfaithful. That's right, 100%. And then Isaiah, this is in Romans 9:27.
There are two quotations from Isaiah. Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel. Hello? What do you do? How do you miss that?
People still say, oh, this is about the church.
So, so great question there. People who would say that the church has replaced Israel, would they be. willing to say I disagree with Paul here. No, they will say that Israel is now the church. And it's just being called Israel?
Yeah. We are the Israel of God.
So they would say in Romans 9:27. He's quoting Isaiah concerning Israel, but what he really meant was the church. He's just calling them Israel. Yep.
Well, at least that's how Paul has now interpreted that. This is the new world. Welcome. Gotcha. Israel, you're out.
We're in. But we'll be called. Not only are we going to take your place, we're going to take your name. Exactly. Anywhere in the Bible is Israel used to refer to something other than.
Israel. I mean, I know Jacob's name has changed to Israel, but as far as Israel as a nation, as a people, Is there any other nation called the Israel of God? No. No. What what they will say is, oh, there are plenty.
And they'll go to Galatians and other places, but they are misinterpreting those passages. In the context, they are misinterpreted. I mean, these people are very big on context, context, context. Other than when it comes to Israel and the church, they go what context. Right.
No context. There's no context here. I don't have any context. Go get your own. And so here it says again, but Israel pursuing.
I'm sorry. Verse 27: Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, the remnant will be saved. That's right. We are the Gentiles. We are the remnant.
No. For he will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth. And as Isaiah said before, unless the Lord of Sabaoth had left us his seed. That's not. Lord of Sabbath, Sabeoth, had left us a seed, we would have become like Sodom, and we would have been made like Gomorrah.
Yeah. From what? The remnants of Israel. We won't be the remnant of Israel. No.
I mean, how can that be? No, a remnant is part of something. that it was attached to already. Right. How can I become the remnant for them?
Like, I cannot be like, we're the last surviving I am the last surviving descendant of the Hill family. Huh? Just instant question mark. Yeah, it's like that's that's his family, but I'm the last surviving remnant.
So these people are the remnant. The people. No, that doesn't work that way. I'm guessing these are mostly like reformed, reformed Christians who would say supersessionism. Would they say, would they refer to themselves as Jewish?
They'll refer to themselves as Israel. Yeah, they won't refer to themselves as Jewish.
So now we got to make it.
So Israel for them takes on more of a spiritual connotation rather than ethnic connotation. And It's the very opposite because every time it mentions Israel, that's as ethnic as it gets. That's what I'm saying. Like Paul is talking about. Ethnic Israel.
He's talking about Isaiah cries out concerning Israel. There was no like church during Isaiah's time. He's talking about God's people. Right. And they will say, no, that was those who were there who actually believed were the true church.
And So is this Because this feels obvious. Is this obvious to us because we've sat under your preaching and because we have that viewpoint, or because it is just that obvious? And the other, like supersessionism, they're going to have.
Well I think a little bit about having studied under or listened to my preaching over the years, you know. where I will come down to. But at the same time, Even though I come down on that fact that Church hasn't replaced Israel. Just basic hermeneutics. should be enough to convince you that Yeah, that's that's correct.
This is blatantly obvious. Yeah, that's not us. Like it feels like I'm having to do more work to convince myself that the church has replaced Israel than to believe that God still has plans for both people groups. He's got plans for the church, and he's got plans for Israel. And we're not saying that if you're if you're Jewish, you're automatically saved because you're God's people.
No, I don't think that's what you're saying. Because Paul is going to talk about that in a few moments. Right. So I don't understand this. I don't understand why I go through the extra work of saying, no, no, no, they're out.
They're gone forever. Because I think a lot of these uh These ideas were born Or solidified, not all of them, many of them, at a time when. the Jewish people were just wanderers. In the medieval times or during the Reformation period, they had no identity left. They were still holding on to their ethnicity or their traditions or the Old Testament systems or whatever else they had accumulated over the centuries.
They were doing all these things, mindless stuff. And here you had. The People who are worshiping the living true God, and they're looking at them and going, they don't even care about this stuff. They they don't have they don't have any desire to turn to Jesus as the Messiah.
Now some would But as a people they are still Blinded, and they remain blinded no matter how much we try to explain to them. Like Martin Luther tried to witness and evangelize the Jewish people. He got frustrated. To the point of getting angry, to the point of writing a book, a pamphlet against Jewish people. And so When you feel like you are so superior, and they don't deserve anything because they're not responding to the promises of God.
to the Messiah. Then you know what? We are the ones now. then you find ways to sort of support and buttress that kind of theology. And so many of the key reformers and even people a little bit earlier there.
uh fell into this trap. That the only way to salvage this is that we become Israel. Mm. We are Israel. And they no longer are a people.
They may go around and doing their customs and rituals and still claim the Old Testament, but. We know better. We know better that they're done, they're out.
Well, some do get saved. Yeah, we know. But as a whole, they're no longer. They don't have exclusive rights to those promises anymore. Why is this harmful to the average Christian?
Let's say there's a Christian out there, just average Joe, and he's saying, okay, I sort of see what you're saying, but even if I thought that, it wouldn't really affect me at all. I'm still going to live my Christian life. I'm not going to go out of my way to be hateful to Jewish people, but I'm just going to believe what I believe.
So be it. It has a lot of ramifications, and I don't know how much time we have to look at all of them. One big one is hermeneutics. Because if you're going to say that those promises in the Old Testament are no longer relevant to the Jewish people or to the people of Israel. then you have to now explain The nature of God.
Why some promises can be broken. Yes. Yeah. Can will God Change his mind? Does God break promises?
And if that's the case, then There are many other promises that he doesn't have to fulfill. Yeah, that opens up a whole big silvery slogan. Yes. And so all of a sudden, you have to now rethink the nature of God. You can still double down and say, no, those are gone.
But no, this is real, and this is true, and that will remain true.
Well, how about that one? Oh, that doesn't matter. You can do that, but it's still. Does not fix that problem, why those are not fulfillable. Right?
Why this one is. And then you come up with a I would say an extra biblical Explanation means it no longer comes from scripture, it comes from your mind, it comes from your prejudice, it comes from your your r your attempts to To somehow make this jigsaw puzzle work and fit. And so you'll do whatever it takes. to make it work. And when that begins to happen, then throw out all the rules.
Make up your own rules as you go. But I mean that's kind of what I was saying earlier. It feels like it's a lot of mental work for something that's really not worth it. Like I'm like my Christian life is actually better. For acknowledging that God loves and chose his people and is going to work through them in a way that he sees fit.
It seems like a lot of extra work to get rid of that. And also, there is a level of prejudice involved because throughout the history, as I mentioned some time back. From I think it's H. L. Ellison's.
Work is commentary on Romans 9 through 11. where he talks about you know one reason Anti-Semitism has Risen again and again in the history, and I'm paraphrasing is because. compared to other peoples who may have claimed to be special These are the only ones, the Jewish people, the people of Israel, are the only ones who, under the blows of history, continued to persevere. I know we're out of time, but just as a point of curiosity, was this a discussion among Christians in India? Like, did your dad have a strong position on this issue?
Yes, he did. Because it was a discussion among the people. And it was far more relevant for him because he was a Muslim before he became a Christian.
So His perception of Jewish people was prior to becoming a Christian was very negative. Like these are the people who rejected God. These are the people who have corrupted the truth of God. These are people who Worship who killed the prophets and blah blah blah.
So then to shift your In time. Higher worldview and say If we're wrong, they're right. It's tough. And even though they are right now not responding to the gospel. They're still right.
and they still deserve to be Love and Grade 4. with the expectation that one day God will raise them up and there will be glory for them. Yeah. So so much to talk about. Good conversation.
I hate to run out of time, but we've got much more to talk about in the next episode. There's a lot of people who, there's a lot of people who have asked if we could start putting out long form content. Like, can this just be one three-hour conversation? Listen, if we didn't have radio, if we weren't on the radio, we absolutely would. We're a radio show first.
That's right. So you get in 30-minute bites. That's right. But you can always come back tomorrow. That's right.
We're going to be here same time, same station, continuing the conversation here on the Clearby Today show. Thanks to our sponsors for making today's episode possible. Don't forget that you can support us by subscribing to the show, wherever you get your podcasting content from: iTunes, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Prey.com, and then make sure that you're supporting us financially at Abadanshai.com forward slash give. Make sure you also stay on the lookout for 30 Days of Seeing Christ in Judges, as well as our new EP Cafe sessions, Volume 1. Both of those are going to be coming out in the upcoming week.
That's right. We love you guys. We'll see you tomorrow.
Okay, guys. Today.
