You're listening to Clear View Today with Dr. Abinan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis, and welcome to the Clearview Today studio. We got a great conversation, maybe wrapping up our discussion on election through the book of Romans today.
But before we get to any of that, before we get to your comments and all of your questions, we want to welcome our host, Dr. Abadan Shah, who's a PhD in New Testament textual criticism, professor at Carolina University author, full-time pastor, and the host of today's show. Dr. Shah, good to see you, Dr. It's good to see you.
Welcome. I'm very excited to continue the conversation. That's right, that's right. Another great conversation. Before we get into that, I do want to remind you of a couple of quick things.
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Or if you prefer to text us or call us, you can do that at 252-582-5028. Got to text. This morning, Dr. Shaw Mark. From North Carolina, Western North Carolina.
This is in response to, so another thing I never noticed this, and tell me if this got ever happens to you guys, but like people will reference something that you said on the show like a week ago because they're just hearing it today.
So I think that is kind of what happened here. This is in response to a conversation we have on Calvinist Arminianism. Mark said, Amen. There are problems in both strict Calvinism and Arminianism. Both originally had errors, and errors continue today if one claims strongly to one side or the other.
Just because you are not this doesn't mean you have to be that. Totally agree. When somebody asked me a question, are you a Calvinist? And I often try to clarify: you mean with a capital C, like a tulip. Right, right.
No, I'm not. But if you say Calvinist in the sense of, do you believe that one saved, always saved, or Calvinist in the sense of, say, you are a sinner. Like, totally, you're a sinner. There's nothing you can do to save yourself. Absolutely, I agree with that.
The moment you get into limited atonement and unconditional election, those kind of things, then our irresistible grace, that's where we have issues. Even perseverance of the saints, you know, that's a. It's a good doctrine in a sense, but it doesn't really. It's not very true because there are believers who may not persevere in the end. But that does not mean they're not going to be saved.
Eternal security is not. Perseverance of the Saints. Two different things. They're two different things. Perseverance of the Saints means you're going to leave the world on a high note.
That ain't true of every Christian. Laserblower. Yes. You know, you'd be like, so. That's loving the Lord Jesus and serving God better and better each day.
And that's the goal. Don't misunderstand me. That is the goal of every believer should be.
Now, who wants to like. You know, go up and down in your Christian life and like be on the down on the way out. But Reality is that there are people who will grow More and more in their walk with God, and then there are people who will struggle and they may go out on the low end, but man, they're still saved. That's right.
So there's a difference between perseverance of the saints and eternal security. Neither am I an Armenian. I'm definitely not an Armenian. I mean, I may have some affinity with Calvinism. As I mentioned, but Armianism, it has a whole different ballgame.
Different ballgame has many problems there. A lot of problems there. Maybe another show will take up.
some of those uh issues of the problems in Armenianism. But here I just want to clarify. I don't know how that works out. But people on the Arminian side, many of them end up not believing in the inerrancy of Scripture or they have issues with um Um You know, how God has set up his church, you know, having male leadership. Uh does not mean that we're any superior to women, but It's just God has set us up so that we would be leaders.
Men would be the servant leader. And so sometimes the Armenian theology.
Somehow, they always end up on the wrong side. Are those part of the Armenian theology, or is it just like a byproduct of what they actually do? It's a strange byproduct. Gotcha. But if you dig deep, you'll find out, yeah, it obviously makes sense.
That's why the progression makes sense. Makes sense. Our verse of the day today is coming to us from Romans chapter 9, verse 33. As it is written, Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling block and a rock of offense, and whoever believes on him will not be put to shame. You know, Dr.
Shah, there are other verses that are similar to this one. Like I'm thinking about when Jesus said, You know, I didn't come to bring peace, I came to bring a sword. And then here, where it's like there's, I'm going to lay this stumbling stone, this idea that Jesus is a stumbling stone, that he's there. To trip people up. And I don't know if cause division is the right way to say it, but we get hung up on this idea because it's not the Jesus that we picture.
And yet God said, I am sending Jesus for a very specific purpose. And part of that purpose is to. Make Jewish people stumble? Is that what he's saying? Or in a sense, is that what he's saying?
To cause offense?
Well, it's not that God is causing this. Right. But this is what has happened. Uh Jesus was the cornerstone, but he became a stumbling stone. Gotcha, gotcha.
And the reason he became a stumbling stone is because, not because they had a wrong understanding of what the Messiah would do, they knew what the Messiah would do.
Now, of course, there may have been people there who thought he was going to lead the rebellion and lead them to freedom from the Romans and all that. Maybe there were some, but overall, the religious leaders at least, the establishment, they knew, That the Messiah, those who were trained in the scriptures, like the Pharisees and the scribes, they knew that the Messiah would be. Um God's substitute for their sins. They knew that the God's son would come to die for their sins. I mean, Isaiah 2.
Is replete with prophecies about the suffering son of God, the suffering servant of God.
So they knew that. Why did they not receive him?
Well, they didn't receive him because he did not come to them for endorsement. The Pharisees wanted Jesus to come to them and say, Hey, you guys are doing a great job. I am here. I am the promised one. I'm here to die.
I hope you guys will get behind me and help me out. Instead, Jesus. Turn on them. He liked that one. Yeah, he called them whitewashed tombs.
Unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the Pharisees and the scribes, you cannot see the kingdom of God. Means He didn't come to take sides, He came to take over. And that really Tick them off. It makes me think of some politician that's going around as he's running for office. Like, I hope I can count on your support.
I hope I can count on you to be there for election day. And that's what they wanted, but because Jesus wasn't that, I mean, the Pharisees knew what they were doing when they took Jesus out, they knew who he was, and they just knew the fact that he wasn't kowtowing the way that they wanted him to.
So, also, the chief priests knew something was distinct about this one. He is the one. We've had these so-called messiahs who had fought the Romans and did this and that and the other, but they were not the one. We knew that, and they fizzled out. No sooner had this started.
But this one is different. This one is lining up through all the prophecies. He is checking all the boxes. of Old Testament prophecy. He is the one.
But He is also calling us to repent. That's unacceptable. Yeah. We are the good guys. We have been Holding down the fort.
We have been waiting for you. We have been getting all these riffraff. To straighten up. We have been standing up against the Romans and you're telling us that we need to change? And they also were mad at John the Baptist because he was also.
Telling them the same thing. He was calling them to repent. He was saying, You brood of vipers, who warns you about the coming? Wrath of God. Who warned you?
How do you know that the Messiah was coming? I mean, think about what he's saying. If you pay attention to what these these statements Uh uh mean Then you know. They knew. Because they did know.
Who warned you? Yeah. Who warned you about the coming of Jesus? Mm-hmm. Which means they knew it was the coming of Jesus.
That's why this one like Elijah is out here. Baptizing on the other side of the Jordan.
So everything lined up. but because Jesus called them out, It ticked them off. Yeah. And they stumbled at the stumbling stone. The cornerstone.
who is still a cornerstone, became a stumbling stone for them. How many pastors, if Jesus were to call them out today, do you think would have the same response? I think A lot of us would do. A lot of us will be in the same boat. It's like, no, no, I've been trying to be a good pastor.
Pastor, I've been trying to keep things going. I mean, these people don't want to support and move forward and change and grow.
So I'm doing what I need to do. But if God were to say, No, but there is sin in your heart, Well, what do you mean by sin? I mean, I have sacrificed so much. I've worked two jobs. My kids have to go without.
My wife wants this, that, and the other. And yet, we have learned to live within our means so that we can help this congregation grow and all that. No, but Jesus would say, No, but you also are no better than them. It is easy to. I think it's easy when you're reading the story to think of it as just a story.
So it's easy to villainize the Pharisees. Um But I think you're right. I would probably do the exact same thing. I might not would. I might try to paint myself as the good guy and say, but look at all the things that I do and look at the actual joy that I get from doing them, the service.
And, you know, it's not fake, it's all real. Yeah, look at how selfless I am. Look at how much I serve. Yeah, yeah. I would want it to, I would want, I would definitely want to skirt past that confrontation of sin.
And Jesus never let that happen. He didn't. The Bible says, and I believe it's in the Gospel of John, that he did not give himself to any person. man or any person because he was He knew what was in man, or any, he knew what was in a person, and he had no need that any one of them would testify of him. That's right.
He he did not need them. to endorse him. Mm-hmm. And that, I think, is why they stumbled at the stumbling stone because he did not come. With the seal of the temple.
He did not come, which would be Sadducees, right? I mean, he called them out. he did not come with the seal of the Pharisees. They had the local people. And he called them out.
He did not come with the seal of the scribes because they were the interpreters, the experts on the law. And they were the ones to whom the Pharisees went. He did not go to them.
So he did not go to the temple the Pharisees, the scribes, Uh and even The Jewish rulers, if you want to call Herod and his family Jewish, they were not really Jewish, they were Idumians. He did not even look to them for endorsement. Of course he did not turn to Romans. Who are the rulers of the time? I mean, why would he do that?
Right. Yeah at times he would heal there, their sickness or whatever, but he never uh look to them for support. I mean No sense.
So he didn't. Did he look to anyone for support, really? Was that something that he even was interested in? No, he came to call all to repentance. Right.
Mm-hmm. He came to die for all. No one was better. in this so called pecking order, uh to to say well i'm close to him So you know, I am exempt from certain things. When it came down to it he even called Simon Peter, Um Yeah.
Satan, get behind me. Satan, you are not mindful of the things of God. I remember that. That's a harsh chastisement. I remember that TikTok.
I remember that TikTok. I might try to find it. Maybe we can put it in here somewhere. But where is Jesus? The guy walking.
The guy walking. Yeah, it was like Peter trying to impress Jesus, and he says, Get behind me, Satan. He's like, Me, me, I'm the one. You know, we've been talking a lot about this going through the book of Romans: this idea that God will work through one person. He'll work through this person and not through this person.
Doesn't mean that he's choosing to save this person and not this person. But his work is gonna be carried out through a select individual. And the idea that people have a problem with that, they're like, but that's not fair. Why is that person worthy? And not this one.
Well, the point is they're not worthy. It's God's arbitrary Um uh you know call or um His God's prerogative to call whomever he he chooses to call. Right. By the way, when he calls, it's not an unconditional election because He still has an opportunity to respond. Case in point.
In Isaiah. Whom shall I send, and who Will go for us.
Okay. I mean, this is a choice. God Declares that question. Whom shall I send and who will go for us? And then Isaiah responds: Here I am, send me.
It's a choice. When God called Abram And Sarai. In Ur of the Chaldeans, get out of your country from your father's house. And go to a land that I will show you. He had a choice.
He could have said no. Yeah. That question was bubbling in my head. Like, could Abraham have said no to God? Absolutely, yes.
He would have said no. If he did say no.
Well, would we have the nation of Israel? Would God have worked through a different person to bring that about? More than likely. But see, God is all-knowing, He has foreknowledge, so He would not have. asked him if knowing the whole time that he may not respond.
So, God would have asked somebody else. I mean, or maybe God, that call did come to a lot of people. Mm-hmm. But a lot of people did not receive that call.
Well, his grace, too, and I didn't mean to cut you off. Go ahead. His grace as well. Like, I think about Jonah, who did say no. Yeah.
And he gave him a second chance. You know, we think of the fish as punishment, but I think it was really grace. No, the fish saved Jonah. Yeah, the fish, the fish that swallowed him was Jonah's second chance to do what was right. You know, it's funny, this is kind of an aside, but I was, you know, we do our little bedtime devotionals, and I think at school, they've been showing Gavin these, like, these little Bible videos.
So we watched one on Jonah. And he loves the story of Jonah. We were watching the little video, and it actually says that he didn't want to go to Nineveh because he didn't want God to forgive them. And I was like, okay, I wasn't expecting that. Usually it's.
They were mean. They were mean people and Jonah was scared. But it was like, no, he didn't want. God to forgive them and stuff.
So then it gets to the end of it and it shows Jonah preaching and all the Ninevites get saved. And then Jonah's like hugging them and high fiving and he's really happy. And then Gavin literally he looks at me and goes, It's a happy ending 'cause now Jonah loves those people. And I was like, in reality, in the book of Jonah, that's not what happened. That's right.
But I didn't know how to tell him.
So I was like, good night, son. We'll talk. He's sitting under the juniper tree, right? And he's angry. And God.
uh sends this uh well uh god sends this um This heat wave And uh and then God You know, Allows this tree to grow and shade him, and then sends a worm to eat it up. And then the tree dies, and he's angry. He's mad. He's like, You're so petty. Uh-huh.
You're worried about this. You're angry because of this tree dying. And you're not worried that there are people in this This massive city of Nineveh, who cannot tell their right hand from their left. That could be evidence to your point, Dr. Shaw, where it's like nothing made Jonah angry.
In fact, God gave him a second chance, and it seems like he still didn't get it. Yeah. He still didn't learn. But God chose to work through who he was going to work through.
Well, I would say it's not like he didn't learn, but it's a very beautiful literary device that. Jonah has used, or the writer of Jonah has used, which is it leaves it there to ask us that question: what would you have done? Good point.
So I would say Jonah probably in time was like, yeah, you're right. Because, I mean, how would you know about the tree and the worm and all that unless he told somebody? Did Jonah write his own book, or did someone write about him?
Well, traditionally, it is considered to be written by Jonah.
Okay. So, if he didn't write it, then somebody else, of course, obviously, but there's a good possibility that he may have written it. And then comes the big question, were they capable of writing something like this in a third person? And the answer is yes. I mean, Moses did, right?
Yeah, Moses wrote Exodus. The more you study ancient writings, and not just biblical writings, but other writings, you find that people were far. more astute and able and creative and knowledgeable. To be able to do kind of things like this, yeah. We think because we got laptops and phones and stuff that were that makes us have colleges and universities, yeah, and we have Turabian and MLA or Chicago Man, Chicago Man, know how to do these things and bring up bad memories, man.
I don't like that, not true. They knew how to do those kinds of things. Yeah, that makes his story of Jonah. I don't know why I haven't thought about this before right now, but that makes it even more compelling. If Jonah writes this own example from his life about the time that he ran and that he didn't want people to be saved, and he provides that as an example for the readers, wow, I mean, that's that's kind of humbling on his part.
And I think it also shows the wide birth of people that God will use. Maybe not birth, but the wide, like, Um Choices of people, yeah, the pool, yeah, the selection pool, variety of people that God works through, yeah. Yeah, because you know, we started this whole thing talking about how why did God choose the nation of Israel? But Abraham was not Jewish, he was not Israelite, he was not Hebrew, of course. His descendants became Jewish, but we're sort of playing on words here, so nobody don't want anybody to walk away thinking, Are you telling me then we don't need to like the Jewish people?
No, no, what I'm saying is, God did not say, I'm going to work through the Jewish people, right? Where are they? No. He picked a Babylonian. He picked a Mesopotamian.
And Babylonian may be a little anachronism, but Mesopotamian is not. Right, right. That's what that land was. The land between the two rivers. Do you?
I'm sorry, go ahead. I mean, Mizo Potamas. Potamas is river, Mizo in the middle, middle of the river. In the middle of the river. Yeah.
If we have all this evidence of God working not just with a people group, but God working with individuals, right? We're talking about God calling Abraham, God calling Isaac, God calling Jacob. If God works through individuals, he's got to pick somebody. Right. So, why are we up in arms about him choosing Abraham?
Well, so that was my question. That was going to be my question. Not necessarily why are we up in arms, but for you, you're a scholar. Your whole job is to look at these texts and to dig and to find out what is going on.
So, when you see something like that, God says, All right, Abraham, I pick you, you're the one. Do you then, as a scholar, say, okay, I need to find out why Abraham, or do you say that's just who God chose, and that's fine. I'm okay leaving it at that. I do a little bit of both.
Okay. Because uh once Scripture declares something, then I will take it for what it is.
Now, of course, there may be some issues regarding the text, where textual criticism comes in, whether it's the Old Testament or the New Testament. Is that word in the manuscript, or is there a different variant that is better suited?
So that's one issue. Second issue would be more translational. Is the translation correct? Or is there a better translation? You know, those are the kinds of things.
But once that is. Establish, I will take whatever it is saying, what the Word of God is saying as fact. I'm going to begin with that fact. I'm going to begin with that truth, that principle. and and know that that's where I what I s believe, that's where I stand.
Um But then Also I I would say I will dig into it to figure out.
Okay, now that I know this is the fact, principle, truth. Why? Or for what purpose? Whether or not it's true. Whether or not it's true or not.
Right. Once I've established that it is true. Based on the text and the translation, then I'm going to operate from that perspective. Got it. Jesus rose from the grave.
Textual variant-wise, hey, that's solid. Translational advice, it is solid. Heroes from the grave.
Okay, now I'm going to work from that. Point of view. I'm not going to say it's like, now, is he, is that really possible? Can dead people rise? Was Jesus fully God?
Was he able to rise? No, that gets into more of a historical critical question. And that was a movement that was Very popular back in the Oh, the nineteenth, twentieth centuries. Can we trust the Bible to Do miracles happen? Yeah.
Have they simply Taken. everyday things of life and turn them into these mythological Happenings.
So Anyway, I hope that helps. It does. I think that speaks to the power of textual criticism because we talk about textual criticism on the show. Obviously, that's your degree. That's your PhD.
That's the works that you've published other than the devotionals that we've been talking about. By the way, 30 Days of Seeing Christ in the Book of Judges. Yeah, that's coming out in the next couple of weeks.
So we just want to take that chance to sidebar with you, our listening audience. But it speaks to the power of textual criticism because, I mean, you've just said as a scholar, like, if there are no questionable variants here, and if translation-wise, there's nothing that leads us to believe that this is not, you know, some. It's not a mistranslation. Exactly. If those two things are on level, I'm going to operate from the.
Point of view that this is fact. Exactly. And so that speaks to the power of textual criticism. It's not like historically, could this happen, physically in the world, scientifically, could this happen? No, we're going to operate from the understanding that God's word says it.
And we'll move from that as truth. And that also has been established in my mind. Right. From years ago, years of studying. In the early days of my ministry, I was I know we're kind of veering away from what we need to talk about here.
From my early days in ministry, I had some doubts.
Now, I didn't have doubts growing up. I was pretty solid. I didn't have doubts when I was called in the ministry. I didn't have doubts when I came and took the church. But then.
A little bit of doubts began to creep in. How do I know if all this is true? How do I know there is no other way? How do I know that all this is just bunk? And we're just you know, floating on this This abandoned ship And All this is just a mirage, just a dream, this doesn't exist.
You know, many, many kinds of questions came to our mind. And so I spent some time. researching and studying. and even prayed God give me solid convictions. Convictions about your word, convictions about salvation, convictions about the lostness of people, convictions about heaven and hell.
convictions about, you know, many other things of life. even convictions about The life of the unborn. convictions about Marriage, gender, sexuality, all these things I pray now. And once. after some some some subjects I studied like in depth Because that's how I'm built.
Mm-hmm. When I'm studying a subject, I'm going to get right down to the core of it. I'm going to go right down to the cell and break it apart. And look at her the nucleus and uh and and and and the In a mitochondria, whatever you want to say. I'm going to really work on every little detail of that, and then I'm going to pull out.
Has that ever made your doubts worse? What I mean by that is, like, have you ever found something that didn't line up with something you thought before? You're like, oh, wow, this actually presents a big problem that I can't reconcile just yet? To the contrary, every time I walked away, I was more.
solidly Um positioned On my convictions regarding the Bible and everything. Every one of the time I walked away. And and with a deeper, better understanding. Mm-hmm. Deeper, better understanding.
Previously, I had this understanding, now I have this, and that gives me a much more of a vice grip on. That truth or principle or whatever. Do you think I think that's so helpful for people to hear? Because a lot of times people will throw that up as an excuse. I don't want to dig too deep.
Because what if I find something that's going to shake my faith? Yeah, I've heard people say that. Yeah. But to hear you say every time, 10 out of 10 times that I have really dug in to explore these doubts, I've walked away more sure of what I believed. Do you think it's safe to say that people who do say that, like the more I read the Bible, the more my doubt I just realized this all can't be true?
Would you think it's safe to say you're not reading it correctly? They read the wrong books. They went to people who have wrong convictions. They have an agenda. And unfortunately, they got trapped in it.
They got hung in the net. Of the enemy. And so that's why it's so important. to know for sure who you're studying, who you're reading. What is their bias?
Where do they get their education? What is their agenda? That's why it's so important.
Now I'm not looking for some you know half-hearted Hack scholar To tell me, hey, I'm right, and I don't care what you say, I'm gonna stand right here. Uh I know I want to find The best of the best of the best. I'm not scared of scholarship. I'm not scared of Okay, I I'm not scared of reading a scholar who may not be a Christian. As long as what he's researching in And and and producing Is solid scholarship.
But you know, Paul in his letter here. In Romans, he's gonna tell us why God picked and it's not unfair. For him to have picked Israel. I want us to look at that next time. Yeah.
Let's do it. Let's do it. Guys, make sure you join us next time, same time, same station. We're going to be diving into another great topic here on the theory of today's show, exploring this doctrine of election as Paul talks about it in Romans a little bit further. Thank you again to our sponsors for making today's episode possible.
And like we said up top, if you're interested in sponsoring the Clearview Today Show, write in and let us know at contact at clearviewtodayshow.com. Or you can also text us at 252-582-5028. Make sure you're subscribing anywhere you get your podcasting content from. And don't forget that you can always support us financially at Abadanshah.com forward slash give. John, what do you want to close with tonight?
Just want to remind you guys that Clearview Today's show is just one show on a larger truth network. Our friends over the Truth Network have been very good to us, and they're being very good to you by providing 24-7 Christian Talk Radio, all at the touch of a button on your smartphone or on your radio.
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