You're listening to Clearview Today with Dr. Abadan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. My name is John Galantis, and boy, I'm so glad to be back in the Clearview Today studio with Dr. Abadan Shah, who's a PhD in New Testament textual criticism, professor at Carolina University author, full-time pastor, and the host of today's show. Dr.
Shah, it's so good to see you in the studio today. It's good to be here. Good to be here. It's good to be here. We got a midweek.
Yeah, there you go. You guys can give it up for the studio audience at home. A little bit delayed. A little bit delayed, Charlie. That was your cue, brother.
No, but it's so good to see you, Dr. Shah. We have had a great week. We're now out Wednesday, midweek. Pick me up.
That's right. There's probably some people listening who need a little pick-me-up this week. Absolutely. You know, I wanted to kind of just touch base. We were out at lunch earlier.
Yes, we were. Oh, boy. Are we going to talk about this? Yeah, I think so. We should talk about this.
No, why not? Why not?
So we were out at lunch earlier today. My heart is broken.
Well, so I liked that you actually stood with me in solidarity on this issue.
So. We were coming out of the we were coming out of the um Restaurant that has some nice Mexican food. We were going back. Ellie and I were kind of playing car hop, car tag, if you know what that means, like where your car's in the shop, so you're trying to arrange a ride with your wife, she's got the kids, so you're trying to arrange everything.
So then you call her up and say, Hey, just come and eat with us. She come join us because she was going to be out anyways. And I said, Why don't you join us for lunch? Our staff goes out for lunch once a week. And this is a great time for us to discuss things and spend some time together.
And so I invited them. Right.
So they come.
So they're like, okay, and then we'll take the car after. No problem. Everything's cool. We go, we eat. The kids are more or less well-behaved.
Everything's good. It was great. It was great. It was a great time.
So I get in the van, the church van, driving the church van. And the church van has a little, it's got, so it's got a holder, like for your pins and stuff. Then it's got a cup holder. And then if the door's open, it has two holders there. Yes, but it's just a cavity.
It's like a, it's like a little thing.
So I'm like, oh, I'll stick my phone there.
So I stick my phone there. That sound will haunt me for the rest of my life. I shut the door and I mean it is like bones crunching in someone's arm. It's just like the most sickening. Yeah.
And I said, what in the world was that? Yeah. So I open up the door. I see my phone. Dr.
Shell's like, oh no, John. And I don't know why I was. Downplaying of the music. You're very chill. He was like, oh, well, I said that's all right.
I knew I was I knew it was a lot, but I was like, maybe I can get I was like, oh, it's just the tempered glass. And as soon as I picked it up, like the and I looked at it, I was like, it's not you, you bent your phone. In I won't say in half, but it's like one-third, yeah. It's like nearly headless Nick with his head, like kind of it's like it's like this is kind of gruesome, but like in medieval times, if they tried to behead someone, but they didn't get it on the first, that's that's what the camera part of this iPhone is busted. And and by the way, the kids were watching some cartoons, Bluey, they were watching Bluey, and and guess what?
Bluey was still on, I was still playing, and I could still hear, like, oh, and I was like, and it was like, but the screen was shattered and glass, glass, glass everywhere, but bluey was still playing. I felt so bad. I was like, John, that's okay. I guess it's okay. It's all right.
I'm good. We're good. Have you ever had one of those days where like your frustration just keeps mounting? Yeah. I knew because I remember seeing my dad when my dad would get frustrated.
Everybody had to like, oh, back off.
So sometimes I overcorrect and I'm like, oh man, it's all good. It's all good. Like inside, I'm like really, really keeping it together. But on the outside, I'm like, I'll never be like my dad.
So I was like, it's all good. We're good. And then you were about to pull off. What did I do? Oh, yeah.
I was about to dr. Shaw was like, do you want me to drive? And then you were like, no, I'm good. Yes, you need to drive. Yes.
So I knew there was someone else that kind of hangs around with us. There's a lot of biblical truths here, folks. When you see your friends struggling and you know they're no longer in the right headspace, even if they're telling you, I'm good. I'm good. I'm good.
This is good. It's okay. It's all right. You still say, hey, look, let me just drive. And for those of you who are in my position, don't be too proud to take it because that would have been me.
And I know there's.
Someone else that I think we're both thinking of who would have tried to power through and be like, No, no, I'm good. Truly, truly, I'm good. Let me drive. They would have got frazzled, started drifting off the side of the road.
So I was like, you know what? Let me actually, I will take that out of it. And I, and I drove, but so, so I got out of my seat, which was the passenger side, yeah, with my phone in my hand. And I don't know what happened, I actually dropped it face down on the pavement. On the pavement, 20.
Thank God, it did not. I mean, I have a case, like a battery case around this uh phone. And and but, anyways, yeah, it's got scuff marks, but thank goodness it didn't break. And I was like, What in the world?
So I came over and I told you, yeah, well, I was telling my because I wasn't gonna, I was just gonna keep it quiet and try to figure out how to do it. I was like, ah, let me just go ahead and tell my wife.
So I was like, Hey, this happened. And then Dr. Shah came over and was like, In solidarity, I threw my phone on the ground too. Didn't mean to. Didn't mean to happen.
Well, is it any wonder the verse of the day is about suffering today? No, I'm just joking. I'm just joking. But it is coming from Romans chapter 8, Dr. Shah.
Romans chapter 8. You know, we got some people who actually, the last couple of weeks, were texting in and was like, hey, I actually enjoyed walking through Romans. What happened? Yeah. Well, guess what?
We're back. We're back in it. We're back. Here he goes. Back in Romans, Romans 8, starting at verse 29, it says, For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover, whom he predestined, these he also called. Whom he called, these he also justified. And whom he justified, these he also glorified. You know, Dr. John, I don't know about you, but I've watched at least three YouTube videos on this subject.
So I'm something of an expert. I mean, I don't have a PhD. I would disagree with you, but I am something of an expert on predestination. Basically, I can tell you exactly what this passage is saying: is that God already, not only did he know, he chose who's going to go to heaven and hell. And that's what this passage is all about.
I mean, am I right on that? No. No, no, no. You know, this passage has been debated for a long time. I mean, when we say long time, we're going back to the early church history.
We're going back to, let's go to the fourth century with Augustine, the Bishop of Hippo, North Africa. And he was very strong on this matter because there was another church figure by the name of Pelagius. Pelagius was a Romano-British monk and he knew some Latin. He was good in Latin, but not as good as, say, Augustine was. But he was.
He he was uh preaching the view that Unable, if I can say that, that's like a double negative there. We are not unable to come to God. In other words, there is no such thing as original sin. There's nothing that we're born with. He would say there's nothing we're born with that keeps us from reaching God.
Right.
And so Augustine jumped on that. He said, absolutely not. We are born dead in trespasses and sins. And so. I totally agree with him.
I agree with Augustine on this matter. Yes, we are born dead in trespasses and sins. But then to go to the next step, which is God has to choose you to be saved. And that you have no choice in that matter is nothing to do with free will. Because if you say free will, then you're getting into Pelagianism or this Pelagian view.
I think that's an overkill.
So, Augustine would have said there is no free will. Right.
God chooses, and that's it. That's right. Okay. And I disagree with Augustine because I think. It's fine to say that we're born dead in trespasses and sins because that is biblical, but then to To think that now you require God to pick you out because we know that everybody's not saved.
then how are the ones who are saved saved? But God has to Pick and choose. That's what Augustine was saying. And I would disagree. I would say, go to the Gospels.
And in the Gospels, it talks about the dead will hear his voice and live. Right.
Means when the voice of Jesus comes to our hearts, that's when we have the opportunity to hear. We can reject and stay dead, or we can receive him. But if you carry that analogy just too far, as in people who are dead in a funeral home or in a hospital, and say, you see, that a dead person cannot do anything. I think you're taking the analogy too far. Right.
Because there is some, I don't want to say poetic, but there is some illustrative language happening. That's right. In scripture, that if we take just too far and say, dead, I mean, What do you mean by dead? Dead means there's nothing. No, dead in the sense that spiritually we are born in trespasses and sins, but does not mean that our will is dead.
Do you think that's where a lot of bad doctrine comes from is people just taking what's supposed to be illustrative too far? Like, it's like, not saying that, hey, he's speaking metaphorically. Like, there's truth there, but you're taking it too far. Yeah, it happens all the time. It happens all the time.
And that's where I think we have to bring some sense of proper hermeneutics and say, wait, is that what the author intended? Because if you want to know what the text means today, you need to know what it meant back then. Right.
What it meant yesterday. If you want to know what it means today, you need to know what it meant yesterday. And if in yesterday's context, if that's not what they were thinking, then you need to stop superimposing what you are thinking today on what they were thinking then.
So let the text speak. You said this and then apply it. Yeah, of course. You said this one time about hermeneutics, and it stuck with me for some reason. But the way you said it was: it's about getting moving your understanding from what does this say.
to what does God mean? Right.
There's a lot of truth in that that people can take because, of course, we want to interpret the Bible, but there are Christians who are like, that's what it says. He predestined. That means he chose. And that's as simple as that. And so there's no looking more into the Yeah, look at the context in which Paul said those words, and we can look at that in a few moments.
But I want to do a little bit of a historical survey to help people understand that this debate over Romans 8:29 to 30, and by the way, that's just one. One Passage that is used to support double predestination or predestination. There are other passages as well. We're just focused on this because this is where we are in Romans.
So, this might come as a reveal by the end of the episode, but I'm glad. And there's a reason that Dr. Shah didn't say we're going to look at this issue of predestination. We're looking at Romans 8:20. Right.
I just want to do a historical survey of how people have used this passage to support their view, but I don't want to spend time going into the depths of predestination or foreknowledge because that's not what's happening here. Right.
Let me also clarify one more thing if I can. Sure, please, please. This does not mean that Pelagius was right. For him to deny original sin. Yeah, that's crazy.
That's crazy. And so just because I disagree with Augustine. Does not mean that I agree with Pelagius. Pelagius was labeled a heretic, right? Yes.
Would you say rightly so? Is that heresy or is that just really bad doctrine?
Some people have tried to defend Pelagius over the years, and I still think Pelagius was off the mark. Yeah, yeah. He was, would I like stone him as a heretic? I don't know. I don't think so.
But I would not put him in line with Orthodox biblical theology. He wouldn't be invited to speak at Clearview Church. No, definitely not.
Okay. He could talk about anything else he wants to tell me about life in the Romano-British period. But if he emailed you and said, that was life under Romans in Britain. But if he emailed you and said, Dr. Shah, I'd love to do a sermon on original sin at Clearview.
He said, no.
Sorry, buddy.
Sorry.
Now, if you go further down, now we're in the 15th century, you have the same battle happening. And I'm sure throughout the history of Christianity, this was where people disagreed. And I'm talking about scholars probably, but in the 15th century, you had two. Larger than life figures who also fought over this passage. And on one side is Martin Luther, him I've heard of.
And the other side is Erasmus. Yeah, of course. So. I feel like, and I don't know if this is this is real, but I feel like anybody who's a Christian, especially if they're a reformed Christian, they can't not side with Luther. Right.
You know what I mean? I feel like he's coming out as the heavyweight just by name alone.
Well, there are things that even the Reformed sometimes have to part company. I mean, like. You know, things that Luther believed, like the book of James was a straw epistle, like it does not belong in the Bible. It wasn't right, wow. Yeah, Luther said that.
Or his tract against the Jewish people towards the end of his life. I mean, things like that, you have to go, oh, come on, Luther. What are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing?
What are you doing? Somebody get him off of Twitter. But, I mean, look, Luther was a phenomenal. person, not just as a theologian, as a scholar, but he he knew how to how to create a brand. I mean, there's a book out there called Brand Luther.
Wow. Yeah. That's pretty cool. Yeah. Brand Luther?
Brand Luther. I like that. Yeah, it's a pretty good book. Yeah. And it tells you how he was very particular about his products.
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, I can imagine. Yeah, the how the books were going to be produced and what they're going to look like and where they're going to be sold. I mean, so so we like the Steve Jobs of his day.
I would say so. I would say so. Steve Jobs couldn't touch Martin Luther. Couldn't touch Martin Luther. I mean, Martin Luther, you know, by God's grace, started the Reformation.
That's true. Steve Jobs. He made some cool gadgets. He made some cool stuff. But going back to Luther, Luther, you know, believed that.
You know, he wrote the book Bondage of the Will. That your will cannot choose God. Erasmus, on the other hand, who was also Luther's friend for a while, he was sort of more on the humanist side of things. He was a humanist. He was a brilliant scholar.
This this we're talking about in the 1400s into the 1500s. He also was the first person to put the Greek New Testament Together and publish it. Right, right. There was also another attempt being made. I think they were first, which was the Complutensian Polyglot.
But. Luther, I mean, I'm sorry, Erasmus went ahead and published it. And so, in a sense, he won the race, but it really. Should have been the other guys. But nonetheless, to put that New Testament and Greek together was a phenomenal task at a time where we do not have.
all the the resources we have today. He did it in the 15th century. But you would say they fell into the same trap as Augustine and Pelagius, where they're both taking very extreme stances on this issue. Yes.
So, Luther, of course, bondage of the will. Erasmus, on the other hand, claimed that a natural man can do what God has commanded him. Just in your own strength. Yeah, and I can agree with that. Yeah, yeah, I would agree with that.
So I disagree with Luther, but I also disagree with Erasmus.
Well, we're no closer to solving this issue. Just to forewarn you, we're not going to solve it tonight. Yeah, if someone is listening to this episode, like, finally, we're going to learn about predestination. We're going to solve this. No, this is what the passage is about.
The only reason we're going through this so you will have a better understanding of what this passage is about. Right, right. And maybe at a future date, we can take on this massive subject.
Well, so, yeah, that was the kind of the reveal I was I was talking about is that, you know, and I thought the same exact thing when you actually preached the sermons, that this passage is not about predestination at all. People see predestined and they're like, oh, of course it's about predestination, but it's really not. Right.
If you go down to the 16th century, then you have another big showdown between, this time between Calvin, John Calvin, and Arminius, Jacob Arminius, Jacobus Arminius. This is the one that I've actually heard of, but not that I like delved into it. But I've heard you speak of Calvinism and Arminianism. Yeah, you go to seminary and go down in the hallways at 9, 10, or 11 o'clock at night in the dorms, you will hear this argument. Yeah.
So, like, you know how, like, the nerdy kids in high school debate about Spider-Man or like Superman or Batman or whoever's better? These guys, people in seminary, debate about this. Yeah, they do. I mean, I know I did. And so Calvin, of course, was a brilliant man.
I mean, think about it. At age 27, he published his Institutes, which are still being studied to this day. That's young. That's really young. 27 years of age.
And if you've ever read it, because I have it in my office, Calvin's Institutes. It's unbelievable. I mean, he was brilliant. Yeah, that's incredible. I wish I could.
God really blessed him. Yeah, I wish I could be doing stuff like that at 27. I was on the Halo 4 leaderboards, but I was not writing the Institutes of the Christian Religion. I can tell you that.
So, of course, Calvin. Believe that God chose beforehand who He will accept and who He will reject. Arminius, on the other hand, you know, believed that, um No, that's not true. You have free will.
Now, people usually, I'm not saying everybody, but usually. Are like, no way, no way. I cannot believe in a God who chooses some people to go to heaven and some people to go to hell. I cannot be a Calvinist. Do you feel like...
Do you feel like that's an that's an appropriate view to take? I think that may be fine, but that does not mean that then you are an Arminian. Right.
I'm not an Arminian. Definitely not.
So that's a good that's another good thing, and this is something that could probably be its own episode, but The way that Christians, especially, or maybe it's just people, but they'll say, if you're not this, then you're that. There's only two options. Right.
And I'm definitely not an Armenian because Arminians also have to answer a big question. And the question is this: if you believe that God knows everything, right? I mean, that's what they believe. God foreknew. He didn't pick for you.
He didn't pick you for heaven or hell, but he knew what you were going to pick. Mm-hmm.
Now, Armenians also have to answer a big question, and the question is this. If God knew What I was going to pick. And knowing that he still made me. Right.
Because the consequences of not picking right are so severe. Right.
I'm going to hell.
So he is creating me. Knowing fully well that I'm going to go to hell. Hey, buddy, do me a favor. Just don't make me. Don't make me.
Well, sister, seriously, that's a great qualm that they have to answer. Because if that's the case, and he did that, is he good? Right, what kind of a god is this? Like who's setting me up for failure knowing fully well that he's not going to choose me but i'm going to make him anyways yeah That's the I'd be like, yeah, I'd rather just not be like, I'm not at fault. You knew.
And that's the thing, because I've heard this analogy before where it's like, I know if I set down broccoli and I set down ice cream, I know which one my son's going to make, but the choice is still his. It's like, yeah, that analogy is fine, but this, I'm good either way. Like, I'm still not me, but I'm not like a bad father, whatever he picks. If I, if the consequence is heaven or hell, and I still make it, and eternity is too long to be wrong. Yeah, I'm a bad father if I do that.
For Gauntist. Think for a moment that I'm an Armenian because I'm not, because they also have a big. question to answer. Mm-hmm.
Right.
Now th then later on, you know, go back, go down about two more centuries.
Now we're in the eighteenth century. Mm-hmm.
And this is the seventeen hundreds where you have two giants again. And this time it is George Whitfield and John Wesley.
Okay. and they were fellow students and um again George Whitfield was a Calvinist. And John Wesley was an Armenian.
So definitely one is saying, no, it's completely God's choice, which is George Whitfield. John Wesley saying, no, humans have some sort of. Here's a funny thing: John Wesley, when he was coming to America to. do his mission work, he left his church under the care of George Whitfield. And when John Wesley came back came back to England, guess what?
Whitfield had converted all his congregation. Oh, no, for real. And so Wesley was not happy about that. I don't blame him. Yeah, it's like, I should not have given it to him.
That is pretty, that's pretty stinking funny. Yeah. And so they sort of fell out of friendship for a while.
So the debate got that heat. Yeah, I mean, they were not friends. Wow. But here's the interesting part, and I hope there's a lesson there for the church today. And I'm not talking about heretical views or views that deny Christianity or core doctrines and all that.
But When we have people disagree over minor issues, and again, I'm not trying to divide doctrines into primary, secondary, tertiary. I think that's that's you know, everything is connected. That's right, that's right. But on trivial issues, be careful because sometimes we end up labeling each other's. As heretics, when we shouldn't.
True. What we know about George Whitfield is that he asked Wesley to preach his funeral. Wow. Yeah. He asked Wesley, and Wesley did.
He preached George Whitfield's funeral. And here's something very interesting. One time, one of Whitfield's. I guess disciples or colleagues asked him mister Whitfield, Do you think you will see Wesley in heaven? Put him right on the spot, huh?
Yeah. And you would think, you know, Whitfield was like, I don't know, you know, I'm not sure if he is saved or not. Whitfield's response was. No. I am not going to see Wesley in heaven.
Because Wesley is going to be so close to the throne of God, and I will be so far back. Wow. That's beautiful. That's a great answer. I want to give that answer next time someone asked me that.
Talk about humility. That's humility. You know, that's humility. And it's a good lesson, like you said, because a lot of times, you know, doctrine is something that we talk about. We have an entire exclusive series on prayer that just goes through doctrine.
But I think when you live in that world and you argue and you are so. devoted to Being right. A lot of times you can forget that we're humans. You know, we're to chase doctrine and pursue correct doctrine, but at the same time, we're humans who are doing that. And so we have to live in fellowship with each other.
Now, I would say things like inerrancy. Trinity, these are exclusivity of Christ, that he is the only way, truth, and life. These are doctrines worth breaking friendship for. I would say, yeah, if somebody is not going to stand there, we can be friends, I guess. That's cordial.
Cordial. We don't have to be hateful and ugly, but at the same time, it's not going to be the same kind of fellowship anymore. That's right. That's 100% right. Right.
So, again, what we're talking about here is things you may like. I don't like that song, or I wish we had hymns versus. You know, praise and worship, whatever. Be careful about that. That you break friendship over, or something like that.
And people do, and it's very sad. And each of these men, you know, I know these are, these are, I mean, you would consider them giants of the faith. They're absolutely even despite these disagreements. Yeah, yeah. And I'm not, just like John the Baptist, I cannot loosen the sandal straps.
Wow. But I would say that in this particular passage, I think they were. Mistaken. In using this or including this in their argument. We've got maybe about six minutes left in the show, so I'm sure we're going to have to tackle this on the next episode.
But what do you think is the core misstep that they made?
Well, let me at least whet the appetite of those who are listening and watching. Let's read again Romans 8:29, if you don't mind reading it. Sure, yeah, I'll read it. For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover, whom he predestined, these he also called.
Whom he called, these he also justified, and whom he justified, these he also glorified.
Now, here's a big question. Mm-hmm.
All those big words from forenew, predestined, Called, justified, glorified. What tense are they? Tense, there are past tense. Right.
Because if it were present it would be Um These he is calling, or these he is justifying, or these he is glorifying. If it was future tense, it would be these he will. Predestined, these he will call, all will be future. They're all past, and the one that is very important for us to recognize is the last one, which is glorified. How in the world are we glorified?
Right, because we're that's still to come. Still to come. But Paul here is saying. It is done. And what often happens is people read that passage and go, oh, this Paul is being kind of rhetorical.
Nothing big there. No, I think there's something huge that is happening there. And that helps us understand that this passage is not about predestination to salvation or damnation. This is communicating something different. Because if this is a sequential thing that one happens after the other, then we can't say he also glorified us.
Right, because glorification hasn't happened. Right.
Now, people can still force the issue and say, well, you're still glorified in this.
Well, no, when you read Romans chapter 7 and 8, We know that that glory is coming. Creation is waiting for us to be revealed. All that is still in the future. And yet, in this passage, he says it is done, like happened now. Then we have to back up and say: so, what is Paul really talking about?
In the context, and that's something we can take over, take up next show. In the context Paul is giving that statement As a sequence of assurance to believers who are going through suffering. Because when you're going through suffering, sometimes when things are so stressful, so frustrating, you're praying to God and you feel like. There is no God. There is no Answer coming.
No one cares. God doesn't care. Am I even saved? You know, that's where you begin to doubt. your salvation Because if God really cared, But I but I feel like The windows of heaven are closed.
I feel like there is no answer coming. That's when this passage tells you: no, even if the answer is not coming right now. From God's perspective, Your salvation is already completed. Because he's. Watching.
He's seeing the end from the beginning. That's right. Okay. Everything regarding your salvation is secure. You may still have to go through suffering in this life, but that does not mean that your salvation is in jeopardy.
So this, this, we're getting the wrong doctrine from this passage. Instead of saying this passage is about predestination, this passage is about assurance. This is not the golden chain of salvation. This is the golden chain of God's assurance as we face sufferings in this life. Wow.
I want to dive into that a little bit more. Unfortunately, we are out of time. But Dr. Shah, thank you so much. And guys, make sure that you join us tomorrow, same time, same place.
We're going to be diving right back into the book of Romans right here on the Clearview Today show. I want to say a big thank you to all of our sponsors, particularly Mighty Muscadine and LaBlue Ultra Pure Water. Thank you so much for sponsoring the show. And you guys can always support us by subscribing on iTunes, Spotify, anywhere you get your podcasting content from. You can listen on pray.com.
More about that in just a second. You can also support us financially at Abadanshah.com. A couple of things real quick before time runs out. Number one, we are doing another live stream, August 15th from 7 to 9. p.m.
We want you guys to call into the show so we can pray with you on the air. That number is 252-582-5028. Make sure you go ahead and just save that in your phone as the Clearview Today show. You can text us at any time, whether we're live or not. Also, and I cannot stress this enough, guys, go and subscribe to Dr.
Shah's weekly devotional podcast, The Lighthouse with Dr. Abadan Shah. Those are weekly devotions. The new episode drops every single Saturday at 8 a.m. You can find it on Apple, Spotify, Pray.com, and on Pray.com, Dr.
Shah, we are passing 33,000. 33,000 people. Praise God. Thank you, Lord. We're going to do a big celebration episode once we hit 50.
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