You're listening to Clearview Today with Dr. Abadan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis, and welcome back to the Clearview Today Studio. We've got a great conversation with you guys today.
We teased it a little bit a couple days ago, but I am so, so excited to jump into one of the coolest topics we have ever covered here on the Clearview Today Show with our host, Dr. Abadan Shah, who's a PhD in New Testament textual criticism, professor at Carol. There it is, professor at Carolina University, author, full-time pastor, and the host of today's show. Dr. Shah, welcome.
Studio. Thank you. Thank you. Look at those socks. I gotta say, your fashion has been on point lately.
Those socks are on point. We're so excited. We kicked the table. I think the table, so we took the rug out of here, and I think the table's a little closer than migrated towards us a little bit. I tried to cross my legs earlier, and I definitely like banged that table.
There's a table there. Oh, that hurt. Hey, quick reminder: I do want to update you guys right before we continue.
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So make sure that you're writing in and letting us know what you're taking away from each episode. Here comes the Oh no! Here comes what we're taking away from each episode. Money, money, money, money.
Okay, so, Dr. Shad, this is going to be a little bit of a different million dollars episode. I'm not going to give you any money. As my dad would say, I'm tapped out. I'm tapped out.
I'm moneyed out. Dr. Shah. You have to pay. $50,000.
Oh, you got to pay. That's a large sum of money. But that's a lot. That is a lot of money. You can't just drop $50,000 at the drop of a hat.
Some people can. I'm not in that camp. Dr. Xia, you have to pay $50,000, but you can go back in time. and correct one mistake.
You've made in your life. I would give. Hundreds of thousands of people. Really? Yes.
Is there any one mistake that you can think of, or is it just like, I'll just pay it and then a lot of the mistakes are unmentionable. We won't discuss those like embarrassing things, dumb things. You know, you do things in life. At the moment, you think that's a great decision, and then you go, no, that was not a great decision. I really didn't pray over it.
Now, the mistakes some people make is they. Go on the other side and they look back and they think, you know what, I wouldn't change a thing. And the reason they say I wouldn't change a thing because God worked all things together for good. That's right. Even the mistakes.
But that does not mean that. That was a right decision.
So, yeah, I wouldn't change a thing in a sense. But. If I If I could go back and fix I would. But that's a mistake, you know? And I want to challenge and encourage our listeners not to live in the past.
Jesus himself said, Don't worry about the future. Of course, don't worry about the past. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.
So living today actually will be. I would want to do it, but I don't know that I would actually do it. And like what Dr. Shaw said, by God's grace, all of that has worked out for my betterment. You know, we're talking about time travel.
We kind of got talking about this on Tuesdays. And we said, you know, we want to talk about this a little bit, but we're going to have a special guest on Wednesday. That's right. And then here it is Thursday. We're talking about this again.
I went home and I watched Avengers Endgame. Which I think is one of the heavy in the time travel, very heavy in time travel. One of the things I always said about the MCU was: I really love that they didn't do time travel because I've never seen it implemented in a movie. Where it was done well. Yeah.
And endgame is no exception. It does not work. It doesn't work.
Now, listen, I love the Marvel. I love the MCU. I think they've done a wonderful job in building this kind of unique, shared universe experience. But they didn't do that well. I think any movie, and Dr.
Shaw, correct me if I'm wrong on this. I think any movie that implements time travel is going to break down at some part. The only one have you ever seen Looper? Did you guys ever see that? I've never even heard of that movie.
It was Joseph Gordon Levitt? No, I didn't ever see that movie. I think that and Prisoner of Azcaband came the closest. Other than that, I don't think I've ever seen any movie where I was like, you know what? I really loved the time travel.
Yeah. The concept breaks down at some point because, I mean, people are basing it on fictitious ideas. Why is time travel so complicated, Dr. Jean?
Well, it is complicated because it's impossible. We cannot fix the past. There's only one person who lives above time in a whole different time, and that is God. That's right. And so when we're trying to time travel.
We're trying to live in the God time but still alter The mistakes in our time, and that's not possible. Right.
So either you are in your time, which means it's a One way Street, or you are going to be in God's time. And if you're going to be in God's time, then only those things will come. Will be available to you that God wants you to have. And your mistakes are not part of them. That's a great point.
It's not that time is together, it's that there is time that is linear that we experience, but there is also. God time or Christ time that exists separate. And in that time, God allows you the past. But for not the purpose that you want it to be. Your purpose is: I'm going to go back and fix this.
And have a better, different life. That's not how God works. He allows you to go back in time. You said, really? In God time?
But to Connect with, to identify, to learn. from God's people Whom you find in the Word of God, in the Bible. That's right. That's who he wants you to go connect with. That's right.
So Yeah, you can go back in time, but only in God's time. That's right. I'm excited to dig into this conversation. Yeah, me too. Me too.
You want to read the verse of the day? Yeah, verse of the day today is coming to us from Romans chapter 9, verse 6. Verses six and seven. But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect, for they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children, because they are the seed of Abraham. But in Isaac, your seed shall be called.
I think this is really what, in a sense, people have been waiting for. Because we've been camped out in Romans for quite some time. Yep. On the show and in your end times prophecy series, a lot of people. Don't even remember that it started as an end times prophecy series and still is an end times prophecy series because we've been in Romans.
Everybody wants to get to Revelation, right? But I remember you saying that we're building to something within Romans, which is 9, chapter 9 through 11. Because people will typically go one of two ways, right? They'll say either Israel is done, the church has replaced Israel, or they'll say, no, God has another plan for them. And there's this discussion about what in the world did Paul actually mean?
And it's all based on our understanding of time.
So, there is one way to see time, which is that time is linear sequential. It began sometime in the past where God created time. You're a part of that time in your moment in time, and you're moving forward to what. else is coming down the road. It's all linear, it's all sequential.
What's going to happen in the end?
Well, in the end, based on what you believe. About the Bible, either God's going to fulfill His promises to ethnic Israel. And You know, the millennium and all of that, and then crazy. Christ is going to now hand over the kingdom to his father. The kingdoms now have become.
The kingdoms of God, and now begin the new heavens and new earth. And this is now the timeless zone. At least that's what people believe. Right, right. Or there's another option in that linear sequential world, which is None of those prophecies are going to be fulfilled.
They have been fulfilled metaphorically, typologically. Israel was a typology of Christ. It is done. Nothing else is waiting for us other than We're gonna Usher into the Kingdom of God, the new heavens, new earth.
So, what's going to happen? In the future.
Well, really Either things are going to get really bad or really good. Yeah. A mill or post-mill, but there is no pre-mill because mill doesn't exist. Right, right. So, At the end of times Christ is going to come, but there's really bad, really good.
It's up to God. And he's going to now. Begin the new heavens, new earth, and this is a timeless zone.
So either Prophecies are not going to be fulfilled, or are they going to be fulfilled? But it's linear sequential time. That's one view, which has these two. kinds underneath it. Then there's another view which is Yes, we are in a linear sequential time.
But because of the coming of Christ, because of the cross. Another age has invaded our World. This is the apocalyptic time. And it started. It had a starting point.
At the cross. At the cross. Yeah, he has already come. This new time has begun.
So it's running parallel to our time.
So we're living in this time. But time and again, you can sort of get a peek into the apocalyptic time and see how God is destroying sin or how He's destroying. flesh and evil and all of that, and that is the apocalyptic time. What is the end?
Well, it could be that all the prophecies to Israel will be fulfilled. And then begin the new heavens, new earth, which have already begun, in a sense. with the apocalyptic time. Or there is um No prophecies need to be fulfilled. the end of the ages has dawned upon us.
And it's a matter of time before one time will end in this parallel time, apocalyptic time will Continue into eternity. albeit as a timeless. Existence. Can I assume? Is it safe to assume that both of those views have flaws at some point?
Yes, both of those views, which have two parts, right? Linear sequential. Apocalyptic. Two parts, which is prophecies fulfilled. Or prophecies waiting to be fulfilled.
Prophecies fulfilled, prophecies waiting to be fulfilled.
So both of those. Views allow for that. And scholars have sort of landed on one or the other. Apocalyptic view is sort of. new.
I would say new in the sense of maybe 30, 40 years.
Okay. With the coming of Christer Stendahl and others, sort of. Yeah. And other people who have advocated the apocalyptic eschatology. Relatively recent.
Yeah, 30, 40 years. One of the things I've learned about you. And I think it's it's really benefited me. in the way that I think is that Generally, as a general rule, if you have two views And they're both sort of flawed. But they have but they're both really good, but they have some flaws.
Typically, where the average person will say, I'm going to pick the one that seems the best to me. Yeah. You will make the best choice. You will say, There's probably a third option out there that's better. That I think a lot of people seriously I think a lot of people don't do that It sounds kind of obvious when you say it, but like.
In life, even if I'm presented two options, I'm not going to be like, Let me search for the third option. I'll just pick the one that I like best.
Well, I think that's because it speaks to your mind as a scholar. There's some research to be done, there's some digging that has to happen. It's not just the two most immediate options, which are usually there's almost always a polarity. There's almost almost a binary option, like this one or this one. Pick your camp.
And they're typically at odds. They are, yeah. But. Could it be that there's a third way and we just have to dig a little bit to find it? Yeah, and that's what happened to me because as I was uh r reading on this and studying on this, I kept feeling like th there's gotta be something more out there.
There's gotta be something better. Available. And I remember A while back, coming across an article by Ann Jervis. Ann Jervis was a scholar, is a scholar, but I think retired now. I believe she was at Wheaton College.
And um So anyways, she had written an article in a book called Um um It w it was a compendium done by, um Wycliffe College. Yeah, Wycliffe College. I'm sorry. Wycliffe College. And.
So sh she had written an article on Paul and Time. Mm-hmm. As in Romans 9 through 11, and how time plays a role.
So it just kind of struck me as like Paul in time. There Okay, maybe one day I'll read it. I just don't know if I have the time today. And then with all the series happening and everything, it just I was like, wait a minute, I need to find that article. Where did I see that article on time?
Oh, I know where.
So I had that book. And of course there was an article. And then, since then, that article I believe came out, I want to say maybe 2017, 2018, somewhere there, became part of this book. Published by Baylor University Press.
So That article was published in that compendium. She had written a book. In fact, she wrote it two years ago in 2023. Called Paul and Time. Mm-hmm.
And so was light. That's the book I need to get.
So I rushed deliver delivered that book. to my address and warped through it for the message last week. And it was eye-opening. It was very helpful. Of course, her earlier article helped me a lot, but also reading the book.
helped me tremendously. They're just, this is the first time they've ever listened to this show. And they're saying, so wait a minute, you're saying that there's a parallel timeline. That Paul is talking about in Romans. How would you explain it to someone who's just turning the show on for the very first time?
What we're talking about. It's very simple. What is Christianity? What happens the moment you are saved? What happens when you pray and invite Jesus?
To be your saviour and your king.
Well, you may say many things happen. One is you're saved, your sins are forgiven, you are a child of God, you are going to heaven, you have a new life now. You have the Holy Spirit with you. Yes, all those things are true. And they're very important.
But there's one thing. Also that happens. That at the moment of your salvation, now you are one with Christ. You know, Christianity is not like any religion out there. There's no religion like Christianity where.
our Saviour, our God, Now dwells in us. And we in him.
Now don't misunderstand. We will never become God. The fact that he's connected to us, we're in him. And his life is flowing with us, does not make us God. Right, we will never in a trillion.
trillion years ever become good. God. But now we have his life flowing through us. You say, where does the connection take place? There's an episode we did on that a while back.
We are connected to God through the human n through the human Of Jesus. That's right. You know, Jesus, fully God, fully man. I am connected to the fully man side of Jesus because that's as far as I can go. Right.
All right. I know there's a lot of views out there about theosis and things like that, where people feel like, man, I'm connected to God. I'm like, that's the that's where I'm going with it. Yes, I am connected to God, but the place I'm allowed to connect Is the humanity of Jesus. And that connection.
Yeah, I didn't mean to cut you off. No, go ahead.
Well, I was going to say that connection that you're talking about, that's not just I have this in common with Jesus. Because you could say every human being. Saint, sinner, Christian, non-Christian, they have that in common with Jesus, that they're fully human. But there's a spiritual connection between Christian and Christianity. Yeah, there's a relationship.
Right.
Yeah. There's a relationship there now, which did not exist before.
So now that I am united with Christ. And in that sense, I'm connected to God.
Okay, they're still at distance. But there is a connection. I'm also united to the Christ time. In other words, I'm allowed to enter into the Christ time, which means the way I see time. has changed.
That's such a fascinating conversation. concept. You I mean, on the surface, it seems like something out of a science fiction movie. Like we're talking about a different time and a different realm of time that we step into upon salvation. But it makes sense when you think about being connected with Christ through humanity, through our humanity, through His humanity.
We are connected with Him who is beyond our linear time. There is a sense in which we step into that realm. Exactly. We are. It's not like li uh life is just linear sequential, then then for promises fulfilled.
End of the world, new heavens, new earth, timeless existence. Or, We're living linear sequential, but the apocalyptic age has invaded our world when Jesus came. And now we are simply existing in this limbo right now until the This linear sequential age will end, promises fulfill or not, depends on your view. And then we go into this apocalyptic. Age forever and ever.
I've never been comfortable with either of those views, linear sequential or the apocalyptic age. And so I always was searching. There's got to be something more. Did you feel like something was incorrect about them or that they had stuff missing?
Okay. Gotcha. But of course incorrect. It can also be said, gotcha. And so Ann Jervis's work has been very helpful.
Because What she proposes is the Christ time. Even though the designation is not found in the Bible, that's okay. The Christ time idea. is everywhere. Mm-hmm.
And then we often quote Galatians 2.20. for I am crucified with Christ. I no longer live. But Christ lives in me. And the life that I now live in the flesh.
I live by faith. In the Son of God. who loved me and gave himself for me. I'm crucified with Christ.
Well, when did that happen? Yeah. When was I crucified with Christ? I mean, when were you? I mean, if you're a Christian, you have been crucified with Christ, right?
Right, right. When did that happen? Which hill? Where? Was it outside this town?
Mm-hmm. How did that happen for you? Did you hop over to. To Jerusalem and just got over there. Like when was it?
Was it when you got saved? Was it. Way back 2,000 years ago, you didn't exist 2,000 years ago. Like, how did that happen? See, what is happening there is that Paul is taking us into the Christ time when he says that.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.: So, do you think then that the temptation would be to write that off and just say, oh, well, I wasn't actually crucified? It's just a metaphor, it's a symbol. That's exactly what people say. Yeah, because that's what I was thinking. Like, okay, before this, I would have just said, no, that's symbolic.
I wasn't actually crucified. But Paul is saying, I was crucified with Christ. Yes. It was n so how how do we understand that?
Well, of course it's spiritual. But we we need to stay spiritual, not Metaphorical. Spiritual is quite different than metaphorical. Metaphorical means like, oh, that's not really what it means. That's a great distinction.
Metaphorical, I feel like people just kind of write it off like, oh, that's just flowery poetic language. And people will do that. People, I've even seen scholars do that with the Bible, where they'll say this is metaphorical in the sense that they can still say it's real, even if it didn't happen. It's real in the sense that it teaches us how to live. And seriously, I've seen scholars like online, I've seen scholars, they will treat the Bible as fiction.
But since it's metaphorical, it's good for us, it's good for society, we should treat it as though it's quote unquote real. Right.
And that's not I don't think Paul himself would have Agree with that. I'm not talking about metaphors here. It's not like the cross metaphor applied to your life. It is spiritually, you are crucified with him. Means when you are saved, you're entering into the Christ time.
To that time. And it's already applied to you, so don't try to do it today. If you're saved, it already happened for you. You have to, by faith, receive what has already taken place. That two.
2,000 years ago, when Jesus died, you died with him. When he was buried, You went into the grave with him. And when he rose from the grave, he said You also have risen, Romans chapter 6, to walk in the newness of life. That's what baptism represents. Right.
I was just about to bring up baptism because I think people are very. Quick to say that. Like that, when we get baptized, this is a symbol. This is an illustration of what's happening. But I think, and even if that's true on a surface level, I think what you're saying, Dr.
Shah, is on a spiritual level, it is also literally true. You are being. Or being buried and risen with the money.
Now, I don't know if somebody listening or watching is going, y'all are reading too much into this. I don't know about that. All right, let me ask you another question. In Romans chapter 8, this is a very important passage.
So if your bubbles are there. In Romans chapter eight, And I believe it's in um Versus.
Okay, Romans chapter 8:17, it says, and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ.
Now, I want you to listen very carefully to the next line. If indeed we Suffer. Suffer with him. Where is Jesus suffering right now?
Well, wherever God's people are, he is suffering.
Well, no, no. That part may be true. But that's not what it's saying over here. When did Jesus suffer? When he was here, he suffered.
He suffered on the cross. He suffered the mockery. He suffered. The The hatefulness of people.
So, when you are in Christ, okay, when you are saved, you are now in Christ, you now are able to connect with the suffering of Christ. Because as Christ was/slash is going through that suffering, I'm there with him. I'm going through you. I'm in him. You are.
You are experiencing that suffering. Through Christ's time. If we suffer with him.
So it's present tense. Through Christ's time in the Holy Spirit, we can slide along that timeline and be in that suffering. Very well said. That's what we're talking about here. Why is it important to get on board with this?
Because it is complicated, and in these past few days that we've been talking about it off-mic, it's been not complicated as in like convoluted, but it's a shift in thinking. And it's hard to sort of get on board with that because I've always taken it as this is metaphorical, this is symbolic, Christ did it, and now I relate to it. I identify with it, but it didn't happen to me. Yeah, because if we don't do that, why is this so important? If we don't do that, then we're missing a major part of our Christian life.
Mm-hmm. You know, Paul says here in Romans. And I'm trying to find the right reference here. it says and reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. What is that passage again?
Romans chapter six eleven six eleven. Reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, But alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Reckon yourselves, count yourself. Right? It's an accounting term, accepted that you are dead to sin.
But you're going to go, man, I pinched myself, I'm alive. I'm alive. Oh, metaphorically, we're talking about. Right, right, right. I think that's this is a big shift for me.
Paul is not saying, and I think even a few weeks ago or a few days ago, I would have said this. Paul's not saying, act as if you are. Right.
He's saying, you are. You are. Yeah. So, how can I be unless I enter into the Christ time?
So, that's the struggle that people will have. What does that mean to be in the Christ's time? Then, I will suggest to you and encourage you to understand who you are in Christ, which is the heart of Christianity. Christ in you, the hope of glory. Good point.
Good point. And this is a spilling all kind of this analogy may not do it, but it's the difference between being married, being a good husband, and acting like you're married and acting like you're a good husband. Right, right. See, Romans chapter 6, verse 8.
Now, if we died with Christ, we also believe that we should also live with Him. Live with him, knowing that Christ, having died, raised, having been raised from the dead, dies no more.
So this is not a death like Jesus experiencing death because Some Christians were persecuted and they died, so he's experiencing death in that spiritual sense.
So you're also, no, this is about what took place 2,000 years ago. Is what you and I are connecting with, and we connect with him when we enter into the Christ time. Right.
Which is not some Special thing you have to do is simply understanding who you are in Christ. You're already there. And when you are in Christ, and when you are in the Christ time, you are able to connect With The saints of God. He said, What do you mean by like, I'm going to have a seance or something? No, you're able to know what Abraham experienced and how he saw Christ.
You're able to see. Um Moses and see how he walked away from the passing pleasures of sin. esteeming the riches of Christ far greater Then all the treasures of Egypt he he chose to suffer. He the sufferings of Christ were more important to him. Um you see David.
In Psalm 22, talking about My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? I mean, you are able to come close to these. Men and women of God. And really see. What they saw and connect with them.
And in the process, it's not like a connection with people. To see how Christ was a center was the focus of everything. And that's when Hebrews 11 really applies. Let us therefore run this race. set before us.
Right? Yeah. But did you know that it starts with Since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses. Those are our witnesses who are cheering us on. We say that.
Preachers preach that all the time, but they forget that. How do you See the cloud of witnesses around you. is when you enter the Christ. That's a great Point. I'm so excited to dig further into this.
Like, actually, seeing what does that look like? How do we realize and recognize that connection between us and between not only Christ but between the saints of the past? Yes, that relationship, right, between faith and sight. I know we like to say that a lot when people die, but there is, I think, there's definitely a tangible relationship between what you see and the faith that allows you to see. Absolutely.
But unfortunately, We are the topic.
So you're going to have to make sure that you see it on the show tomorrow. There you go. Make sure you join us for tomorrow, same time, same station. We're going to dig further into this topic of the Christ time and how we apply that as believers. Thanks again to our sponsors for making today's episode possible.
And don't forget that you can support us by subscribing to the show on iTunes, Spotify, Pray.com. Make sure you're listening on PrayRadio. That's right. And you can also support us financially at abhinanchad.com forward slash give. John, anything you want to plug as we close?
Definitely just want to quickly remind you that there's all sorts of great shows on the Truth Network. That's where we're syndicated as far as our radio broadcast is.
So make sure you go and check out all the other talk shows on the Truth Network. You can also follow Dr. Abadan Shah on Prey.com, trying to get over 60,000 followers, and I think we're very, very close. We're at like 57, 000.
So very, very grateful for all of you guys who are supporting us on Prey. Make sure all throughout the month of October, you're listening to Dr. Shah on Prey Radio, 7 a.m. on the East Coast. And then everywhere else, one hour and a half where you were previously.
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We'll see you tomorrow, Uncle B. Today.
