You're listening to Clearview Today with Dr. Abadan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis, and welcome again to the Clearview Today Show. We are so glad you're joining us here in the studio with our host, Dr.
Abadan Shah, who's a PhD in New Testament Textual Criticism, professor at Carolina University, author, full-time pastor, and the host of today's show. Dr. Shah, welcome to the studio. Thank you. Thank you.
It's a deafening, deafening studio audience today. They're very happy to see you. They're very excited. Hey, Dr. Shah, I was cleaning out the fridge today and I did not realize that our show is being sponsored by Thumbs Up Soda.
Do you remember buying this? Like, by the way, just to clarify, Thumbs Up is not sponsoring this show. But this was the soda I drank growing up in India. It's very well known. If you talk to, if you have Indian neighbors, say, hey, how do you like Thumbs Up?
Did you drink Thumbs Up? Thumbs up growing up. Oh. Make sure they grew up in India. If not, that would be a little like.
I'm from Toronto.
So, the thumbs up, there's no B in it. It's. Thumbs up or thumbs up. Thumbs up. It's like a slang way of saying it.
Thumbs up. Thumbs up?
So, this is not a soda I've ever seen in America. Dr. Shaw bought this, man, two years ago. No, I would say maybe A year ago? Less than that.
Really?
Well, maybe you're right. I was cleaning out the fridge and I was like, what in the world is this? And I pulled out the little thumbs up and I was like, oh. How many more left of the last one? That's why I'm not drinking it.
I don't want to drink it. I drank one yesterday and it was really good. And then I went to go see it. I was like, there's a lot of people.
Well, you know, for a long time, Coca-Cola was banned from India. Really?
Yes. Because, you know, the government was very protective and did not want outside money staying outside.
So they did this whole thing of not allowing Coca-Cola and Pepsi and Sprite and all that. But now it's all there. They just wanted their own brand. And it was not bad. It was good.
But then people would go drink Coca-Cola like they were in the Middle East or in Europe or in America or Australia. And a lot of Indians work in these places. Oh, this is nothing compared to Coca-Cola.
So the truth came out. And then I would get National Geographic Magazine and they're Santa Claus drinking Coca-Cola. How do I do that? Why can't I have that one? I like that guy.
That looks good. And everybody else is drinking it. Look, this is what I did when I first traveled to America. This is in 1991. I was only 17 years of age.
And I mean, I asked that poor heir hostess For Coca-Cola's. Every Nice. 30 minutes. Like on the plane. Yes, can have another one.
She's like, sure, I can bring it. I hate to say that because those poor ladies work so hard. Yeah. But I want to say that Those air hostesses were much nicer and friendlier. Back then.
Back then, I think, and to their credit. Is because the audience has become much ruder now. That's true. And demanding and ungrateful.
So I think they've had to be like. Excuse me, sir, in just a minute. And it's like, oh, they've got to be a little harsher. They're harsh and they're just like, woof. But back in the day, it's like, yeah, of course, sir.
And they would bring you another Coke. Like, their hostess is your friend. They're there to serve you. That's pretty cool. You know what I really love that a lot of people don't get on board with?
Although I know you're this way. I love coffee on a plane. Oh, I do. I don't know what it is.
Something about coffee on a plane. It doesn't even have to be good coffee. No, it's not a cold. I love a cup of coffee on a plane. It usually never tastes good, but something about drinking coffee on a plane, I don't know what it is.
It's like coffee after a meal. It is a little high stakes, depending on the level of turbulence, because it's an open cup.
So you're like, I've never once had a drink spill on a plane other than the nonsense with the pressure. Wait a minute. Let's not say never. No, but I've never had like, I've never set a drink and like the turbulence made it spill. It's kind of funny because you're scared to death of turbulence because it feels like the plane's falling out of the sky and yet the cup doesn't move.
You're waste more stable. It's coming in amazing. Yeah. But yeah, coffee on a plane is. You drink coffee on a plane?
I do. Yeah, I do. Usually if it's like the afternoon time. I'll definitely get a cop. But does it make you feel cool?
No. I hate to say it. Nothing on traveling by plane feels cool anymore. No. There was a time that I would go and hang out at the airport.
Yeah. No, no joke. Yeah. You're talking about the pre-9/11. It's sort of like hanging out at the mall?
Yeah, you could go there, you can walk around, you can see planes taking off, you could eat there. Mm-hmm. It was great. And then of course, you know. 9/11 happens and everything shuts down.
You can't even go past a certain place, you know. And I get it, you have to do what you have to do to keep people safe. But there was a time we would go to the airport. You saying that you've told me that before. And so, the last time that we were in an airport, not New Mexico, but um, Dallas when we were in NRB, yeah, Dr.
Sha, you left a day early. You had an appointment back in North Carolina, yeah.
So, you left NRB a day early when we were coming back. I remember, what was the airport? Was it it might have been the Dallas airport? It was where we got stuck. Yeah.
It's still worth. In Fort Worth, yeah, where we like to wait forever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what I mean. That's what I mean.
So, so the Dallas-Fort Worth airport is huge, it's enormous. Really?
And we got there. I booked the flight for later in the evening because. NRB ended earlier than I thought. I thought we had an extra hour to an hour and a half of actually taking stuff down. For those of our listeners who do not know what NRB is, NRB stands for National Religious Broadcasters Convention.
We were at the convention. And this is where all the Christian broadcasters come, whether it's radio, television, magazines. It's a huge deal to be a big deal to be part of that.
Now we are, QuickBooks Today is a member of the NRB. In fact, you know what? That calls for a little bit of celebration. Hold on one second. Where's my make sure it's the right one, John?
I know. Where's my grunt birthday party? I think I'm just hit one. Go for it. Just hit one.
Well, unbelievable. There it is, there it is. The kids got excited about it. Though, yes, clearly today we are NRB members.
So we were at the. Fort Worth. Dallas-Fort Worth airport. And it was just gonna be a long flight. And I remember you telling me that story that we used to just go and we would watch the planes take off.
So I sat down and I started watching the planes take off. And you were right, it's really fun. It got to the point where I was like just sitting there and like Ellie was talking to me and I wasn't listening. I was just watching all the planes. I was like, huh?
Yo, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then there was a point where Ryan was like, hey, we need to move to another gate. And I was legitimately annoyed. At Ryan, because I couldn't watch the planes take off anymore.
So we went to the other gate, sat down. I knew we were going to be there for another three hours. I was like, I know this is weird, but I'm just going to go back to the other side. I'm just going to walk over here. I went back to the other gate and just sat by myself and watched the planes take off for like another hour.
I had booked the flight later because I thought we had more time to pack up at NRB. And then we had a rental car that we had to drop back off, and I. I'd never done that at Dallas, so I didn't know how long that was going to take us.
So I wanted to allow us enough time, but it ended up being. Way too much. Way too much. Yeah, I still have the text message. Cause I went and sat by myself for like an hour just watching the planes take off.
And I saved the text message that Ellie sent me after an hour. She texted me and said, come back. You're being weird and rude.
So I was like, okay.
Well, this all goes to tell you sometimes those little pleasures of life that some of us have enjoyed back in the day, they they change.
Now it's a different world in which we live. And we have to adapt to this world. can pine for that old world, adapt to this world and Keep sharing the gospel. Amen. Amen.
Absolutely. You got a verse of the day for us, Ryan? I do. Verse of the day today is coming from Romans chapter 12, verse 6. Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them.
You know, a lot of us, Dr. Shall have gifts that are not obvious gifts, like singing or preaching or whatever those obvious gifts are. And so we don't even bother looking for our gifts, we don't even bother asking, what is my gift? And it's a shame because, like Paul is saying, we're supposed to use them. You know, the gifts that we have are not supposed to be sat on or hidden.
We're supposed to use them for the kingdom. That's right. All of us have certain gifts, and God wants us to use them. And the church body, it's a body. We are all members of the body, just like Paul talks about it in Corinthians as well.
Same thing he's talking about here. We have different roles to play. And the key is for us through the Holy Spirit is to discover our gifts and then to utilize them for the benefit of the body. That's right. So if the eyes stop working, it's going to impact how the body functions.
The hands don't do what they're supposed to, if the feet don't respond, if the ears are not working, if the mouth is not speaking, it impacts the whole body.
So recognize Christ is the head, we are the body, we all have different roles.
So whether it's in your home, Or is in your Charge family. Utilize the gifts that God has given to you.
Now, I want to clarify that gifts are not necessarily, oh, that's my expertise. Gifts can also be It it a sense of Understanding A spirit of Giving That's also part of what God wants you to use. See if I can if I can give an example in the context of don't think too highly of yourself. I think about my dad. Back in when I was A little boy.
Dad was traveling everywhere preaching the gospel. He was in crusades and and conventions and big evangelistic meetings, and he would go for like a week, two weeks at a time. He even worked with a Billy Graham Crusade. For several years, and of course, Billy Graham himself was banned from India. But my dad got to work with many of his associates.
Like there was a man by the name of Akbar Abdul Haq. He was a famous Muslim convert, an evangelist.
Well, actually, he was not a Muslim convert, his father was. But Akbar Abdul Haq grew up in a Christian home, but he was very good at. being uh you know the Christian apologetics to Muslims. and my dad translated for him. And I have a picture of my dad translating for Doctor Huck, who was part of the Billy Graham team.
Wow. And there were others as well that my dad translated for. He was Um Trustee On the Union Biblical Seminary Board, the same seminary that he attended as a young man. He was. You know, very well known in the evangelical world in India.
But When he and my mom got married, my mom straight up told him That she was not going to clean the bathrooms. What I mean by the bathrooms more specifically is the commode. The toilet, yeah. The toilet is not going to be cleaned by her. I've done a lot of things.
I'm not doing that. I'm not doing that. I have not heard someone call it a commode for. 15 years. That's what my dad always called it.
Really?
Yeah. My parents, too. It was a commode. Yeah, the commode. I think that's what it is called.
I think that's what the picture turns out. Yeah. So. That was their agreement. That she would do everything.
She can change the children's diapers. She would clean the kitchen, the bedroom, whatever. And we had people who would come and do that for us. You pay them, and that's what they do. They're house cleaners.
And but that's one thing that we did not have our house cleaners do. But mom was not going to do it. Guess who's going to do it? Dad. Dad's going to do it.
So he would go off to all these conventions and come back. He would bring us toys and gifts and plants and all these things would come. And then he would I remember it like it's y was yesterday. Then we would he would say, I need to get to get some rest. I'm tired.
And he would lay down. Like sometimes it would be six o'clock in the evening, he would lay down until eight. Or sometimes it would be the first thing in the morning that he would lay down. You know, he would arrive at six o'clock train and then he would before school he would, you know, come and and give us our toys or whatever he bought for us and then he would be like, I'm gonna take a nap. He was take a nap until like ten o'clock and then he would get up.
The first thing he had to do was go Clean the bathroom, clean the toilet. That's clean the toilet. That's rough. That's rough. You just had to roll your sleeves up and get it done.
But this is a passage that comes to mind. Don't think too highly of yourself. I mean, just because he has such a big responsibility and went and translated for Billy Graham Association. Yet he came home and cleaned the toilet. That's the spirit we need to have.
In the church. That's exactly right. In the family, in the church. That's what Paul is talking about here. Yes, sir, exactly right.
I can't remember who tweeted it. There was one, there was a worship pastor or a worship leader. Gosh, I wish I could remember. I might look it up. But they tweeted something years ago that I always remembered.
I think it was one of the first times that we met. I saw it on Twitter. It said, if you. If you won't hold a toilet brush, you've got no business holding a microphone. And I remember that making.
I don't think I like that. Yeah, I wish I could remember who said that. But I think it was Mike Donaghy from 10th Avenue North. I think he tweeted. That sounds right.
Yeah. That sounds like something new. But I always remember that. And seeing the way that you work, Dr. Shah, and you work, Ryan, and the things that you guys do.
And I think the things that the leadership staff here does, I think they've embodied that very well. Absolutely. You guys absolutely know what it takes physically to make this church run. And nobody is above anything that we have to do to make it happen. This is our place.
This is a place that God has entrusted us with. And we can't sit back and just say, okay, you could do this, you do this. We've got to be willing to roll up our sleeves at times and do the absolute.
Well, even you said, Dr. Shah, sometimes they'll be like, just from kids running around or just teenagers, like there's Cheetos on the floor. It's like, guys, this is our home. Let's clean it. That's right.
Yeah. There's trash on the floor. Yeah, it was Mike Donahue. I thought it was. Just if there's trash in the street, if there's trash in the parking lot, treat it like it's your home.
Well, my dad used to say that regarding people coming into the church and they want to be the chairman of some board. They want to be the chairman of the finance committee. They want to be the chairman of the trustee board. I'm here and I should be given that responsibility because I am so mature and so much experience I have. By the way, if you do that Just know that it is coming from a place of insecurity.
Don't act like that. Don't walk into somebody else's home and say, Now I'm in charge. Yeah. Don't do that. Just come and obey James.
You find that lowly place and let someone else. You know, um Or, like Jesus said, come up here. Don't go find the highest place. You find the lowliest place. And don't.
Tell someone, go sit, just like James says, go sit on the lowly place. That's right. But my dad used to say, before you can be a chairman, start picking up chairs. Yeah, that's a great, that's a great thing. I like that.
And you don't want to pick up chairs, but you want to be the chairman. Right. Right. You know, it's funny because a lot of times, and I don't, I don't really see that here because I think you've developed a great culture here where a lot of people who come looking for something, they're looking for acts of service. And I think they see that and they're drawn to that.
But I know there's a lot of churches where people come in. The very first thing, like you said, that they that's on their mind is, you know, how do I become a deacon here? I want a position of lead. I want to direct. How do you get, how do you get to be a Sunday school teacher?
How do I start getting on boards? I want to start moving things around. And, you know, it's funny when I come to Clearview, seriously, brand new people for the first time. They're like, what can I do? How can I serve?
How can I plug in? Right, right. And that's how it should be. Not Demanding a position of authority, but simply a position of service. How do you create that culture where people start looking for places to serve?
Great question. I think you have to model it. You have to model it. You have to change the way you carry yourself. I learned that.
Years ago, years, oh my goodness, you're talking about 25 Yeah, twenty five years ago. I saw, we were at a mall and Our family was very young at the time. The girls were little. I would say maybe Rebecca at the time was probably three years old. Abigail was probably a year old.
I mean, just really tiny, if a year old. And we were at the mall, and I saw this pastor and his wife, and um. His kids were with him. And I immediately recognized that pastor, and I'm not going to mention his name. or the church's name.
But I saw them walking and it was just The and I hate to even talk about pastors this way because they go through a lot. But it was just a strut. It was just a Like I have arrived. I'm somebody and I know it. Yeah.
And He didn't know I knew him. But I did because of course I'd heard him in chapel and all that.
So I was like, oh, that's I know who that is. And But the vibe that he gave was like I am somebody. Of course, I'm here. Pay attention to me. Yeah, I am somebody.
You're welcome to my presence. Yes, and I've got it. I've got it figured out. And of course, his ministry was very, very successful. I mean, it was a talk of the seminary.
It was a talk of the Raleigh-Durham area. It was just phenomenal. And true. Tragically today, not only is he not in the ministry, he lost his marriage. It was very, very tragic.
It's heartbreaking. I think back on that image, and I don't feel like that's right. That's right. No, I actually feel like, oh, I wish I wish time could be turned back so I could walk over to him and say, hey, man, no matter how successful you are, don't forget your family. Make sure you make this a priority.
I doubt he would have. listen to me, he would have punched me in the face. But I would have Oh, I would have gladly done that. And I'm sure he would have been glad that I came and said it. Yeah, I'm sure.
But it was, it was. Very sad. You have to model that. And I'm sure he did at some point. But as when I saw him walking around, it was with such air of I have arrived Don't ever act like that.
It's funny because I think, and maybe you can speak to this, Dr. Shaw, I think people are naive enough to think that. I'm different. If I start. Getting successful, I won't have that mindset.
I think in the past, when I was young, I thought that. I thought it wasn't something that I had to guard against because I'm not bent that way. And it's funny how even little minute successes can do that to you. You know, it's, it's, I think it's done it to me in the past where I'll, I'll. Achieve something, even if it's something small, and then the next time I have to do it, it's like I got this.
Yeah, I think some of that comes from. people. And the because of those one or two people who are the naysayers or the people who are not so happy for our success. to prove to them that we don't We don't need them or we are so superior to them, we do those things. But in the process, we only hurt ourselves.
That's true. So don't do that. Don't live your life. To prove to somebody who doesn't care for you, but in the process, you develop a habit or a behavior that dishonors God. And that discourages God's people.
There are other people who are watching you too. Like I was watching, and I was like, I hope I never act like that when I get to that point. Even though I was so young, I didn't know half the things that I know today. I was like, hmm, that that is so str. sad that he's acting like that.
But Fast forward ten years And all of that was gone. You see the trajectory. Yeah. But I think it makes sense, you know, going back to talking, talking about creating a culture, I think it makes sense the time-tested principle that it starts with the leadership and it trickles down from there. You know, you look at any church and you're going to see, you're going to get a good temperature of what the leader prioritizes, what the pastor matters to him.
Look at Clearview. We are meeting needs in the community. We're making a difference. We're making Christ visible. That's your heart.
That's the culture that you've established here. It matters to you as an individual, as our pastor. And so we then catch that. vision, we catch that that culture and we Let that trickle into our various places we're responsible for so that people walking in the doors for the first time they feel that sense of, okay, this is a church that's about making a difference and about serving other people. And I think you do a great job, Dr.
Sha, of catching on to Paul's meaning here when Paul is talking about our spiritual gifts. I think one thing that we do is we turn it around and we don't call them gifts, we call them our talents. This is my talent. It means I was born with this. I got this.
I'm a good singer. I'm a good leader. I'm a good musician. I'm a good organizer. And that's just me.
You know, that's my identity. But Paul says, no, it's not your talent, it's your gift. How can I be proud of a gift? You know, if you give me a gift, if you gave me a gift, right? I can't go out there bragging about look what I earned.
Look what I did. I made this. No, someone gave that to you because they loved you. That's right. And I think with our spiritual gifts, it's the same way.
I love that Paul doesn't call them our talents, it calls them our gifts. That's right. One of the very first things you ever taught me here was that you cannot succeed on talent. Mm. Maybe out in Hollywood.
But even then, you don't know who's selling their soul behind the scenes to get to where they are. You cannot. Make it on talent, and I think there's so many young Christians today who are getting disillusioned by that because they think that their talent will carry them to success, right? And it does not, or because they are talented. I mean, there are some people out there who are genuinely talented musically, with speaking, with preaching, they're genuinely gifted or genuinely talented in that area, but they're frustrated because it's not taking them where they think they ought to be.
Comes from a heart of submission, a heart of humility. If you don't have that, you're going to be a life-wasted gosh. A life wasted. And you don't get a second life. There's no second, third, fourth life.
A life wasted because you had so much and yet you couldn't get over yourself. And look where you are now. I've seen that in this town. I've seen it. I've talked about that.
And I'm like, you know, there's so much talent in that person, but because of their own self, their own cannot submit to The Lordship of Christ can I submit uh have a spirit of humility gratefulness Now they are they have they have begun to to take pride in their attitude and their behavior. They've tried to legitimize their bad behavior. And they are hurting themselves. Nobody else is hurting them. Nobody's robbing them of opportunities.
They're robbing themselves. If if I don't make this matter, it will be as though it I never lived. And I think maybe the world's better or no different for it. Right. Yeah.
I won't have made any kind of impact discernible beyond the time that I draw breath. And just like Dr. Sha said, I won't have anyone to blame for that but me. My own pride, my own foolishness, my own inability to listen to wisdom.
So, the solution there for us is not to dig into our own self. To find love or service or ministry, but dig into the resources that God has placed inside of you.
So, when God says, or Paul says, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, he says, let love be without hypocrisy, he is telling us to reach in and get the love that God has poured into our hearts. Romans chapter five, verse five says the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us. Meaning Once I'm saved, I don't reach in to my own Love because that love is always going to be selfish, self-centered. Cell protective. It's nothing.
It'll be like well my dad calls a puddle. A put-on. Yeah. That's a put-on. My dad used to say that's a put-on.
I love you because it makes me feel good. Mm-hmm. That's hypocritical. Yeah. But the love the Holy Spirit pours into my heart is true, genuine, self-giving love.
And what does that love look like? Romans chapter 5, verse 8. It says, God demonstrates his own love towards us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Means this is the kind of love that dies for others. That lays down their life for others.
And that's tough because in the early years, I'll be very honest with you. I did not understand that kind of a love. I did not, it took time. for me to understand that love. I would say, in my case, in my case, it was having children that helped me understand what that love looked like.
Yeah, that's a great point. You think you have this concept of love, of a sacrificial love that you're willing to put others before yourself. But really, I mean, we're all dads here. Really, until you see that kid and you see that little baby that's dependent upon you and that looks to you. And as they grow up, they model themselves after you and they learn from you and they get corrected by you.
You really understand this. Like, I would give my life for this, for this child. I would lay down everything that I am for this child. And then, if we, on an imperfect, sinful level can do that for our earthly kids, how much more. Our Heavenly Father is willing to do that for us through Christ Christ.
I think you hit the nail on the head because I was just thinking about that too. Like a lot of times we will try to put ourselves on Jesus' level and say, Oh, I do get it. I know what God's love is like because I would die for my kid. But it's like, yeah, but most normal parents would, or even soldiers, like, I'll lay down my life for my country. It's like, would you lay down your life for your enemy's country?
Yeah, because I wasn't, I wasn't God's enemy, or enemies in your country, right? I was, I was God's enemy, and He and Jesus died for me.
So, that's right. There is still this separation of maybe I can see a glimpse of what that love looks like, but without the Spirit, I'll never, I'll never achieve the type of love where I would die for my enemies. Yeah, but here's one more description of love right here in the book of Romans because we're staying in Romans, right? We could go to Corinthians and we could talk about the love as Jesus explains it. No, we're talking about just Romans in Romans 8:35.
Through thirty-nine, it says, Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation or distress or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. It's not like we love Him above all these things. No, He loves us in spite of all these things.
And then Paul says in verse 38, Romans 8:38, For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present. nor things to come Nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Here's the point. If you are insecure about God's love for you, Then You Do not know how to love people the way you're supposed to. That's right.
That's right. It's when we are secure in God's love, that's when we can give love unreservedly. Mm-hmm. to other people. That's when we can love others even if they hurt us because The love that really matters Is there And it's bubbling forth, and it's going to keep on going and never let me go.
So I can keep g loving you even though you are unlovable or you don't return that love or you are. Hateful or whatever it is, that my love keeps coming. That's right. That's so good.
So hopeful for our future relationships and how we can navigate those and love, not from our own resources, but from the love of Christ that's within us. You know, Dr. Shaw just read that verse from Romans 8:35 through 38, especially those last two verses, 38 and 39. You know, we love that verse so much that we actually wrote a song about that years ago. And it's actually on iTunes, it's on Spotify.
Dr. Shaw's wife, Nicole, actually leads that song and sings that song. It's called I Trust You. It's on iTunes, it's on Spotify. But it is that it is from those two verses specifically that that song is written from.
And you'll hear it right in the bridge of that song, which is really the heart of it.
So we're going to link that in the description. If you're listening, if you didn't know that we had original music, of course we have original music under Clearview worship, but we want you guys to check it out, especially that song, I Trust You. That's right. Great song. Make sure you guys tune in tomorrow, same time, same station.
We're going to be diving into another great topic here on the Clearview Today Show. Thanks again to our sponsors for making today's episode possible. The Blue Ultra Pure Water and Heidi Musket. I'm very grateful for their support. And make sure that you guys.
Support us by subscribing to the show on iTunes, Spotify, Pray.com, wherever you get your podcasting from. And you can always support us financially as well at Abadanshah.com forward slash give. John, what do you want to close with today? We're almost out of time, but definitely want to let you guys know that Prey.com is where our exclusive content is. We are starting up a new show here very, very soon.
We'll have more details on that, but you can only access it on Prey.com.
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