You're listening to Clearview Today with Dr. Abadan Shah, a daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis, and welcome to the start of another great week here on the Clear View Today Show. Thank you for joining us in our studio today, and we are here with our host, Dr.
Abadan Shah, who is a PhD in New Testament textual criticism professor at Carolina University, author, full-time pastor, and the host of today's show. Starting off the week right on the Clear View Today Show with the Word of God. Dr. Shah, welcome to the show. Thank you.
Thank you. I want to see you guys. Absolutely. It's a great, a great conversation. Oh, yes, it is.
And I want to start off everybody's week with our favorite segment, Million Dollar Monday. Dr. Shah, I'm going to give you $1 million. Ryan, this is for you too.
Okay. You're going to get a million dollars. And as an added bonus, you get to spend one hour with the Apostle Paul. You can have dinner. You can take him out to see the town.
You can just sit and just talk. You're going to have one hour of the Apostle Paul's time. But your fly is going to be down the whole time. 100% he's going to notice. He's not going to say anything.
He probably won't even know what a fly is. But your fly is down the entire Visit. That's the condition? That's the condition. I mean, I will do it.
Absolutely. I would 100%. I was going to jump on it quickly, but then I was like, maybe I would take it. He's the man who walks with God. I mean, he wrote some of the most powerful.
Books in the Bible, in the New Testament, that really examine human nature. You say you want to look your best. No, I'm not worried about that. He knows that's how he knows. He's born anyway.
Yeah, he doesn't even know what a fly is. I don't even know when zippers were invented. But definitely it had to be. But he's a man who understands human constitution. He, I mean, every time you want to know what is a human being, who are we?
What are we made of? I mean, he understands all of that.
So. He'll probably, I beg to differ. I believe he would notice. He'd be like, okay, look at this fellow, but probably. Probably he's nervous.
Probably he is anxious because he's talking to me. You know, he will give grace there and he will. You know, try to show mercy. I mean, Paul talks about mercy a lot. Yeah, true.
All right, how about this? Bear with one another.
So he will be like, I'm bearing with this guy. I will bear with you in your weakness. How about this? How about this? What if you do that thing where you're trying to show him, like, you're trying to show him all the technology of the time?
Like, you're trying to pull up videos on YouTube, but your phone is doing that thing where it just won't work. Like, your phone works perfectly until you try to look for a specific picture and like you can't find it. Oh, yeah. I've been there. Or like you're trying to find a video on YouTube and it's taken down.
Like you're trying to show him. Would you still take it? Yeah, I'd still take it. Still take it? Yeah.
Your phone just won't cooperate with you? Yeah, that's fine. Yeah. Oh, my God. Absolutely.
I'd still take it. For an hour to spend with Paul? Absolutely. I would take it. Wow.
100%. Wow. And the million dollars on top of that. Yeah. And yeah, absolutely.
I don't know. I genuinely thought that you would at least have some hesitancy, but I guess not. No. To be fair, I would probably take it too. Absolutely.
Have you ever, Dr. Sha? Had the zipper down and like like on stage or during a funeral. No. You're gonna check it out.
I'm always checking. And the pastors know this.
So, you know, before you get up on the stage, check your nose, check your zipper. This is part of what you do to make sure when you get up there. You know, you're ready to go. Have you? What about you?
Not from the stage, but in like a conversation with somebody. I was like, oh man, I wish someone would have caught that. Yeah. But never, never from like the stage or anything. I never, I never, well, I've done it a couple of times, but I also have seen it a couple of times.
I've saw it one time on a Zoom meeting when someone got up. It was, I'm not going to say who, but I saw it on a Zoom meeting.
Someone got up and was like, hey, excuse me, guys, for a second. And he got up and the zipper, and it was like right in the 40s say something. I was like, I'm not going to say anything. I was like, maybe I'll just, maybe I'll just. Put it in a private chat to him.
But then I couldn't figure out private chat. And then even then, I was like, that's unfortunate. But it's a very humbling moment, right? I mean, those are the times when you're really humbled, just when you think, man, I have it all together. And then that happens.
That's how you know, man, we're all work in progress. We all have to give grace to each other, know that this happens. Would you rather be told, or would you rather just find out later? No, I'd rather be told. I'd rather be told and say that.
Please tell me. I think so. Please tell me. Please tell me. If you notice and don't tell me, you're not my friend.
Be your pastor's friend, or your Sunday school teacher's friend, or your worship leader, or somebody. Be their friend by saying, hey, just to let you know. Yeah, yeah. Your ear flies down.
Okay, thank you. Thank you so much. That's good advice. Thank you so much. We're going to read the verse of the day in just a second, but I do want to remind you guys very quickly that you can follow Dr.
Shaw on Pray.com. All of his messages, all devotionals, all of his books, all of his biblical teaching is all there anytime, anywhere, and it's 100% free. And some of our exclusive content as well is on pray.com.
So make sure you check it out, share it with a friend who needs some encouragement today. And thank you to everybody who has followed us on Pray.com. We are just about to pass forward. 43,000. That 43,000 followers.
So that's 43,000 people who have signed on to your Dr. Shah's teaching. We're very, very grateful to you. That's awesome. If you're tuning in and you're listening to it and you're benefiting from it, but you haven't followed yet, go ahead and hit that button.
Follow along with Dr. Shah's content. That way you'll be updated whenever a new video drops. We've got content dropping every day of the week. Yes, that's true.
Every single day of the week.
So you'll be up to date with all of that new content coming your way. Clearview Today is on Monday through Friday. The Lighthouse with Dr. Abadan Shah is on Saturday. And the Sermons by Dr.
Abadan Shah is on Sunday.
So every single day, a new Clearview podcast drops. That's a pretty big achievement. That's pretty cool. I thought, Dr. Shah, I don't know if you noted that, but that was something we didn't even aim for.
That was something we just kind of discovered: like, oh my goodness, every single day a podcast drops. That's right. And I'm grateful to you guys. Y'all have done a phenomenal job. I'm grateful to David, to Nick, to Adam, our whole team.
And there are people who also listen to the show on the staff. That's true. Staff wives will listen to the show just to catch times. And that happens.
Sometimes they do the best they can and they didn't get a chance to read. Really? you know, listen to the show before it's uh dropped and um You know, it things may happen, something may slip up, or one of the shows may may speed up. And it's all technical technology. Yeah, we want to be very careful about those things.
Still You guys do an amazing job, and I'm grateful to all of you. Thank you, thank you as well. Grateful for the content that you provide and the direction that you take the conversations. I mean, we've said for years that, like, just sitting and talking with you, I wish other people could benefit from those conversations, and then now they can, which is a cool thing to see. Amen.
Thank you. Thank you. Our verse of the day today is coming to us from Colossians chapter 3, verse 13. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.
Depends on what season of your life you're in, Dr. Shah, but sometimes that's really easy advice.
Sometimes that's the hardest advice you could ever give someone for a lot of people. It is. You know, a couple of weeks ago, I shared with a congregation a story that I have shared many times of how somebody had hurt me and I was carrying that burden or that hurt or pain. And I think that's a good idea. you know.
Struggle with it, but I was trying to still move along and do the ministry that needed to be done until someone. caught that And very wisely and maturely they said, you know, pray for that person. For the next Three weeks, 21 days, and see how. How God will set you free. And don't pray for God's judgment or wrath to be in that person.
Pray for that person to be blessed. Blessed for Physically blessed, spiritually, and blessed financially. I didn't like the financial. That's hard. That's tough.
But I prayed, and it was tough. I mean, the first couple of times, I could not even mouth that person's name. This tasted like hot, like ash. Absolutely. It was because all the things that that person had done really came back to me, and it really hurt.
But. In time. Yeah. Progressed and the next week followed, I realized I was actually praying for that person as if I was praying for a friend. And then By the third week, I woke up one morning and I was free.
I was no longer struggling. And if you haven't gone through the struggle, praise God. And I hope you never, ever, ever have to. But if you go through that struggle, it is very real. Oh, yeah.
And it's very painful and it's very hard to just. You know, shake off and just not think about it. You know, you tell people, just don't think about it. Just don't think about it. It's not that easy.
That's true. And so. By God's grace, you can forgive. And when you can't forgive, Forgive, just know that it's not Forgiveness through your own resources. It's forgiveness through the grace that has been given to us.
That's right. It's in the power of Christ. It's in the power of the Holy Spirit that you're able to forgive that person.
So you are a vessel no longer. Just, I'm trying my best. That's right. This is Christ living through you. And so, through Christ living through you, through the Holy Spirit, you were able to forgive that person.
Were you able to forgive Jesus? Oh, um, like I said, so you know where you're going with this. Like, I guess what I'm saying is, like. Were you able to forgive Jesus for hurting you through that person? You know what I'm saying?
You understand what I'm saying, right? I really don't. I really do not.
So we're reacting to something that I saw.
So hopefully, that did catch you off guard. There's a video that I came across yesterday. And I sent it to Dr. Shah. I said, I would really, really love to react to this on the show.
Ryan, I'm sure you have no clue what I'm talking about. But this is a video that came out a couple years ago, or maybe longer than that. But I just saw it for the first time yesterday. I was absolutely floored by this video. If you've got it, Nick, you can just go ahead and play that real quick.
I had a pastor say some things that hurt me really bad. Hurt me so bad. Mess me up. Emotionally. Mentally Really messed me up.
Nothing physical, nothing like that. A a a pastor I I really respected said some words and it hurt me so bad. And one time I was laying on the floor, actually it was in this room. I'm laying on the floor, and in a vision, in an encounter with God, in a vision, Jesus picks me up and holds me so close that I can't see anything. And he holds me so close and Jesus starts to weep.
And he says Please forgive me. Please forgive me. I said, what are you talking about? Please forgive him. He said.
When that pastor hurt you, It's as if I hurt you because he's a member of my body. Look at Ryan's face. Forgive me. And when we hold on to pain. From other believers or other leaders or old pastors or old Christians.
Look, the enemy is called the accuser of the brethren. Any thought. that accuses a brother. With the devil.
Alright, pause it for a second.
So. Dr. Shah, is this a valid point that really just went haywire? Like that he, like an illustration that really, really, really didn't land? Or is this heresy?
Well, to begin with, this is coming from Bethel Church, I'm assuming, right? Because it's Bethel.tv. Bethel TV, yes. A lot of things that come from Bethel we don't agree with. Right.
Right. Okay. Because many times what they have is false and aberrant theology. I just cannot agree with them in other places. Here, I wanna Share with you guys the mind or the reasoning behind it.
Okay. Okay, because that reasoning is Is very much part of the Bethel-like theology.
Okay. Okay. Yeah, it's not just that this guy just decided to find something very unique and like, oh, real. Oh my goodness, I never thought of that. Wow, okay.
I don't think it's just that. It's coming from a theological assumption that really supports their their way of Living the Christian life.
Okay, so this is not just an illustration that went haywire or one person's. Wacky ideas. This is part of a larger issue. This is part of the larger issue.
Okay. So, sometime back, I talked about this: that in some of the Pentecostal circles, there is a theology that attempts to bring Jesus down To the level of us. Yes, I remember that. We'll link to that episode too. That was a really great episode.
Yeah. Why is that important? And some of our listeners and viewers are just kind of going, What are you talking about?
Well, in some theological Uh circles or part of our The world church, I guess you can say, there are people who believe that I can do everything that Jesus can do. And they mean everything. Everything. Like whether it's. miracles or calling out things as if They are um Um you know, fighting the enemy I don't need to say in Jesus' name kind of stuff.
I am. Just as Powerful as Jesus is.
Now, they may not say the way I'm saying it, I'm saying it very clearly. Clear and distinct. Like They will they will probably Wrap it in some theological jargon or like, nah, that's not what we mean, kind of thing. No, but that's what it is coming from. Right, when you boil it down, boil it down, that's what they're really doing.
You say, why is it important for them to bring Jesus down to your level? Because when I bring him down to my. human level Then I feel like There is no difference between me and him. And if there is no difference between me and him, then I can do whatever he did. And what did he do?
Well, he fed the 5,000. I can do it. Mm-hmm. He healed the lame. He raised the dead.
I can do that. He casts out demons. I can do that. He made things happen. I can do that.
Yeah. Part of making, I think you're right, part of making yourself. Quote unquote powerful is to make others unpowerful. That's why people make fun of you. That's why they belittle you.
They don't do it just so that you'll feel bad. They want to feel good. They raise themselves up. Right. So in.
I mean, it's one thing to say everything Jesus did, he I can also do. But you also to do that, you do have to bring him down. You have to lessen the separation between you. Right. Push him down so you can elevate yourself.
Is there a particular passage or verse that they pull out of context, or are there several instances that just kind of. Yeah, there are many things that pull out of context.
Now, one thing that they will talk about, and which unfortunately is also part of other denominations and theological systems, is the fact that the idea that Jesus. Was punished for sin in hell in hell. Yeah, we've done episodes on that. Yeah, we've done episodes on that. And why is that important for them to have Jesus punished for sins in hell because This is where You see a Jesus who's completely Helpless.
Not just helpless, as in on the hill called Calvary, hanging on the cross between two thieves, and the wrath of God the Father is being poured out upon him. No, no, no. This is where. He is being Pummeled. By Satan, dragged up and down the corridors of hell.
and being punished for sins.
So Jesus died on the cross. For our sins. That's not enough. He has to go to hell and suffer for sin as well. That's what some of these people say.
And you know, in some of our that's why I am I love our creeds, but I am not like sold out. Like, I'm the creedal person because sometimes you have this Jesus suffered in hell. Part in the creeds that you go, I don't know about that. Right. And so I don't want that's not biblical.
It's not biblical. I can't go there. I can't, I can't take it that far. And the whole point of the creeds is to have your people recite them so that they believe them and so that they're right. And so I see, it's funny because I thought for sure the first time seeing this that he was trying to lessen the authority of like the pastor.
And then, but when he gets there, because he's like, you know, a pastor hurt me, a pastor I really respected. He also never said that the pastor did anything out of line, he just said that he hurt my feelings. Yeah. But at the same time, to bring this whole thing out with Jesus I forgive you Really, it caught me so off guard that I thought I had misheard. I had to go back and listen to the video again a second time.
Yeah, but I don't think he's doing that here to somehow promote this Pentecostal charismatic theology. I think. Or those who come from this theological world. Live in that mindset that Jesus is my brother. And yes, he is.
You know, talks about him being our brother, firstborn among many brethren, but yet he is also fully God. And even though he became man, don't just say human, by the way, we need to be careful. He became fully man, he didn't just become fully human. Because when you do that, that's also done by people who somehow try to diminish the maleness that is there.
Okay, okay. Yeah, he didn't just become human. He became man. Man. And that's important.
He did not become the new Eve, he became the new Adam.
So all these things are very important once you really start going deeper. Because you may be saying very innocently, but there's somebody who's also saying the very same thing, but they have an ulterior motive. Yeah, true. True. I've definitely called Jesus human before.
You know, not too. Not. Not in a sense to diminish that, but just as a, I guess there is an underlying quote-unquote inclusiveness that comes along with that. But yes, him being man does set him apart, and it shows the roles that God had him for. Yes.
I I don't know, and I don't know if this is something that you can speak to as like someone who's preached for a long time, but do you think there's any part of this person who preached this that was like, I know this is going to shock some people? And I'm going to say, Oh, yeah, exactly. There's a lot of shock value is there. And sometimes people like this who come from this kind of a background, they thrive on shock value because shock value tends to. uh get those people to submit.
Mm-hmm. Because once you are shocked like that.
Now, if he did that at a seminary campus or a place where there are pastors from various denominations there or leaders from a theological world, you know, if they're all sitting together and he said that, he would not dare do that because. They will be like, huh? What are you talking about? Like me. They'll be like.
No, I don't think so. I think you got a problem. You're just spouting off heresies. Right. But he will do that in a congregation or among people Shock Leads to submission.
You can hear the change in his voice, too, in the speech pattern and in the intensity of his voice. He really starts driving the point home. He knows that he has the audience hooked, so he gets a little more forceable. His volume increases a little bit. He also probably knows, like, his congregation, like, if these are, if these are people who have been hurt by the church and they're going to a place like Bethel, which is like inclusive and they're like, come, come, I've been hurt too.
You know, he probably knows and is pandering to that type of. And again I'll I don't n I'm not Ready to judge his motives there, but just going by how churches like this operate or denominations like this operate or theological. persuasions operate. This is done not necessarily to set people free from hurts. inflicted by church leaders.
This is done to admire that person and their their theological Insight and how, wow, man, that person is deep, man. I mean, that got me right there. I'm gonna have to think on that for a while. And so you submit to that person because if they gave you such deep theological insight, there's more there, which means you are superior and you'll always be superior. And so I'll do whatever you want me to do.
I agree. I'll submit. Again, I cannot judge the person's motives, but. People in this theological persuasion do operate From a sense of superiority, because that's when people submit to you. I agree with you 100%.
I know there's hierarchical language in here. The fact that he went with Jesus to me is kind of crazy. But anytime that you talk about, you know, I did this wrong and I asked this person for forgiveness. There's a humbling of yourself where you're like, I'm putting this person above me in this temporary hierarchy of relationship. But it's the opposite when you're like, yeah, this person hurt me and I forgave him.
Okay, now you're positioning yourself as the higher. But to do it with like, I had to forgive Jesus. You know, Jesus wronged me through that pastor and I had to, I forgave him. And thank goodness I did. Yeah.
I'm like, gosh, that's. What I want us to understand is. the second person of the godhead did become man? But you and I will never, ever, ever, ever, ever in eternity ever become equal to Jesus. That's right.
We will not. Whether it's in his deity or humanity, we will never be equal. Or his oneness as fully God and fully man, we will never be equal to him. That's why sometimes you have theological persuasions. It may not be coming from what Bethel is, you know, Pentecostal theology where I can do whatever Jesus can do system.
There are other systems where I am participating in God. Where I am one with God. You will never be one with God.
Okay, yeah, God lives in you.
Okay? You can Touch God only through the humanity of Jesus. You can never be like submerged. And that's where Eastern Orthodoxy comes in, where they talk about. Deification.
And they will always clarify. It's like, we're not saying that you will become God. We're not saying that. What we're saying is that this is how you become one with God. And And I'm like, yeah, but I know what one with God means.
It means His life is in me, that I'm connected to Him. But there is always going to be a distinction between human Beings and God. Right. There has to be because we're created beings. We're finite.
He's infinite. There's no way. And even in heaven. Right. We'll still be separate.
We'll be in his presence and we'll be with him, but we are distinct and we'll never be merged into this one kind of symbiotic entity. No, and even though we will be, we are one with Christ, you know, like Paul says in Galatians 2:20, I'm crucified with Christ. I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. And the life that I live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me. See, yes, his life is in me.
But to say that that means now we're equal. Yeah, see, I see that I agree with you. I see it more like you said, it's not I that live, but Christ lives in me. Like, not that I'm like a puppet corpse that Christ is like parading around, but he's the one living his life through me. He has imparted life to us, but it's not a shared life.
It's not like I'm attached to him like just a lump on the shoulder. He has imparted gifted life to me, but it has not. I'm not attached to him in any way. Right. Well, I can touch.
God through Christ, but that's also through the humanity of Christ. What do you mean by that specifically? That I am connected to him, not maybe not like the just exactly the way Ryan described, not like I'm like touching him like that, but it's more of a faith relationship that his life is in me and I am in him, just like a husband and wife. The two shall become one flesh. How does that happen?
What do we mean by that? I mean, what do you all think? When a husband and wife come together, what does that mean? The two shall become one flesh? Or what should it mean?
I know in our fallen, sinful world, where we are selfish human beings who get angry with each other or who betray one another or who hurt one another, it's hard to understand it. But still, what? What does that mean? What did God mean? Yeah.
This may not be what God meant, but I think I see it as like when a man and a woman come together, there's the sexual nature of that, but then there's also the like. Not adoption, but like how, you know, you always say, like, as a husband, your duty is over your wife. Your duty is like to provide for her to care for. You're accountable for her spiritual life. That's kind of how I see it, where God is going to look at her, yes, but he'll also look at us as one unit.
Right. And I don't know if that's exactly what Paul means by that or what Genesis means. Where is that? Genesis or Paul? Paul?
Genesis says that? Genesis.
Okay. Yeah, the two become one.
So we are regarded as one union, where there's the distinct role before the husband and a distinct role for the wife, but we function together. We are collaboratively united and regarded in connection with one another. Right. We have the same goals, same desires. We have one mind.
Even though we are distinct persons, yet we are still one.
So in a similar way, when When we become one with Christ, we are still distinct, different roles. Right? We're no longer we're not just like now we're a little Just the same level as Jesus. We're distinct roles, and yet we are one. We have the same goals, same visions, same desires.
And And his life is now flowing through me, just like a husband-wife. Uh they they strengthen one another. S but on a much deeper and greater level, My connection with Jesus strengthens me. And gives me grace and power and everything I need.
So when I pray, God, give me grace, what I'm saying is, let The grace of Jesus Flow through me. When I say, God, give me power. What I'm really should be praying is, Lord, let the power of Jesus come through me.
So that's what Christian life is. Yeah. I see I see what I see that illustration. Yeah. Even though the degree the degree of separation is so like cause because even though I'm quote unquote over my wife, I still need her forgiveness.
You know, I still have to submit in that way and say, hey, listen, I was wrong. Will you forgive me? And that relationship will never exist with Christ. Christ will never submit to me and say, Hey, Even though that's right, will you forgive me? Yeah, that's and the way he has kind of twisted that into thinking, into explaining, like, since we are all members of the body.
I guess he's talking about Romans chapter 12, where members of the body that that and also those who are church leaders are, I guess, deeper members of the body or more important members of the body.
So if one member hurts, then The head has to come and apologize for them. Yeah, you can make that kind of a deductive logic or reasoning. But that's not ever found in the Bible. Right. It's inconsistent with the character of Christ.
Right. Dr. Sean, maybe there's people who are listening or watching who have maybe grown up in this school of thought or grown up thinking this, you know, Christian. Christ is equal with me, or Christ is subjugated to this. And today's episode was eye-opening for them.
They want to learn more. What advice would you give them? Where should they start reading in the Bible? What resources would you recommend? Absolutely.
So you often hear people say, I don't care about theology, man. I mean, it's about practice. It's about just doing what God wants us to do. Theology matters. Doctrine matters.
What you believe matters because belief affects behavior. That's right. Their behavior is impacted by their beliefs. If you start thinking that you're equal to Christ, you're gonna do things and then not only be disappointed, but you're also going to hurt the testimony of the gospel. That's right.
Because you're gonna go out there and start doing things as if you're the man and you can do whatever Jesus can do. Have you consulted with Jesus? Have you consulted with his word? Because that's where you find out what God wants. But why should I need to?
He's just like me. Yeah, I'm just like him. We're on the same level. Yeah. I don't have to.
And listen, we're laughing, but that's exactly how these people think. That's sad.
So the word of God is important. Digging into God's Word. and learning theology and learning the repercussions of bad theology are critical. for Christians, for churches, for denominations. That's right.
And we hope this episode is helpful for you. If you would like to learn more, you can always write in and let us know: 252-582-5028. Make sure you join us next time, same time, same station. We're going to be diving into another great topic here on the Clearview Today show. Thanks again to our sponsors for making today's episode possible.
And don't forget that you can support us by subscribing to the show on iTunesPray.com, Spotify, wherever you get your podcast from. You can always support us financially at Abaddonshot.com forward slash give. John, what do you want to close with today? Definitely just want to let you guys know that everything that we're doing is available on Pray.com and on the Truth Network as well. Make sure that you check out the Truth Network every single day.
All of their original Christian Talk programming is available on their app as well as the Pray.com app. Thank you to everyone who's already subscribed and are listening daily. We love you and we value you. That's right, we love you guys. We'll see you tomorrow on Clearview Today.
