You're listening to Clearview Today with Dr. Abadan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis. Happy Taco Tuesday to all of our Clearview Today listeners.
Taco Tuesday. Man, I hope you guys are having a Mexican feast. We had one just today, but we're not here to talk about lunch right now. We're here with our host, Dr. Abadan Shah, who's a PhD in New Testament textual criticism, professor at Carolina University author, full-time pastor, and the host of today's show, along with Permaguest Drumroll.
Please, you guys know her, you love her, you can't live without her. It's Nicole Shah. Welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome. Thank you for having me. Absolutely.
It's good to see you. Welcome to the show. Dr. Shah, how's the week treating you so far? It's been a busy week, but it's been a great week.
A lot got accomplished. We are so busy at Clearview doing a lot of activities, but it's wonderful to see how all that comes to, you know, works out so well. And then, of course, we do a lot of things in the community. We're so involved.
So this week was a busy one, but by God's grace, we were able to get through. A lot of people, you know, it's funny, a lot of people think that churches, and maybe some churches, Do, but a lot of people think, oh, well, people are traveling during the summer, so churches, you almost take it easy in the summer. Like, that's probably in summer than it is any other time of the year. We actually had this conversation recently with somebody. It was like, oh, yeah, y'all took off for the summer, right?
And we're like, no. No, no, we were here rolling. I mean, there may be one or two times where we like there's an interruption in the regular schedule, but we're here. Yeah, we're probably busier. In the summer, sometimes than we are any other time of the year.
Do you ever find that people think that church stuff just happens? Like, like, like there's people, and I know some people say it as a joke, like, kind of tongue-in-cheek, because they know how busy and how demanding ministry life and like work can be. But then there's some people who are genuinely like, so do y'all just like. Do Bible study all day? Do y'all?
Just read the Bible and drink. Or do y'all just plan the service on Monday or a Tuesday, and then the rest is whatever? Unfortunately, a lot of churches do operate with that mindset. And again, I don't know if I fault them for that because they are, you know, have a smaller congregation, and the pastor has, in a sense, Lot of responsibility with the few people he has, you know, visiting them, checking on them, taking groceries to them, or building a ramp for them.
So, there are a lot of things that go on.
So, sometimes the smaller church pastors have a lot on their table. We are. Not a small church, I don't know how big we are, but uh, we have a bigger team, so we are doing other things which are, um, you know, like the this five-day-a-week radio show. People don't realize how difficult that is on you guys because you have to stop what you're doing and then. Not only film, but also John, you have to plan out the show and come up with the ideas to introduce the show and the humor and all that.
And Ryan, you have so much on your plate and you have to leave that and you have to go do this. But we believe that God has called us to make an impact in the world. That's right.
So. there's a bigger impact. But we do care about our people and we do Hospital visitations, we do other things, but we have other people in the church body who also help us in those areas.
So it frees us up to do other things. And it also go ahead. I was going to say the spirit there is different, I think, because, you know, I've been here for going on 11 years. John, I know you've been here longer than I have. And since I've been here, there's never been a time where I can recall us just sitting around twiddling our thumbs.
Like, let's wait for the next project to pop up. No, you've inspired that spirit of like, let's capture, let's, let's advance, let's move forward. Even when our church was not as big as it is now and our team wasn't as big as it is now, that spirit was always there.
So I think that prepped us for achieving greater things down the road. And then that in turn will prepare us for what's next. Yeah, you definitely don't miss being bored. You know what I mean? Like, like, I don't remember, like, do you guys remember the last time you were bored?
Like, just sitting around bored? No. I can't either. And you know what's funny? I don't miss it.
I don't miss it at all. Yeah. And Dr. Shaw, what you were talking about, I feel like it really gives you energy once you see the impact. Yeah.
You know what I mean? Like, if we were. Doing all this, and no one was listening to the show, no one was responding to the sermons. It was like we're just kind of blabbering into microphones and nothing's happening. I'd be like, man, I just don't have the energy to do this.
But, like, seeing the follower count grow, like, you knew we're approaching 50,000 followers on pre.com. And that's 50,000 people. You know what I mean? Right. You're talking about board.
I remember that first week of being The pastor of this church, this is the year 1999, and being in the parsonage, we had just moved in, and the phone was there, and I was sitting there. like thinking the phone is going to ring, people are going to need me. Nobody called. Nobody called that day, nobody called the next day, nobody called.
So you know, so I do remember being a pastor of of the same church, but the pastor of a church where no one calls, no one cares. Wow. And then now it's a big difference. And I think I can't imagine going back to sitting there waiting for a phone call. Yeah, huge difference.
Nicole, how's it been? Been good, been busy. Yeah. Yeah. Like you said, I was listening to y'all talk about the summer, and a fleeting idea went through my head after, like, at the end of May.
And I was like, okay. It's time to relax at summer. And I went, oh, wait. No, it's not time to relax. It's time to get busy.
It's time to crack it into gear because I heard this is a quote from the Big Bang theory, but I've always remembered it. Not a lot of really monumental, impactful things happened by people who were relaxing and having a good time. That's true. That's a great point. Yeah.
Ryan, you want to read the verse of the day? Absolutely. So, verse of the day today is coming from Romans chapter 8, verses 15 and 16. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, Abba, Father. The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.
You know, that's a family I can be part of. Yeah. And you know what's funny is a lot of times we doubt that we're part of that family. And you know, Dr. Show, we've been talking ever since Friday of last week, we've been talking about dysfunction within the family.
So you have this. Quote-unquote dysfunctional family on our earth. And maybe we can dive into what that means. And then you have the ideal, right? We're children of God.
And maybe it is the case that we're so used to this, or maybe it's the case that we've created this in our minds that we have trouble believing that we're children of God. And so the Holy Spirit has to bear witness to that. That's right.
Bear witness as in remind us, bear witness as in speak to our hearts that we are children of God. And there are days that you don't think you are. You think you're abandoned. You think you are an orphan. You think no one cares.
No one is concerned whether you live or die. But then. God, the Holy Spirit reminds us that's not true. Whatever circumstances we're facing in life, God is very aware of it and He is very involved in it, albeit. We Don't like the way he operates at times.
We don't like him waiting. We don't like him allowing things to. Progress In a way that is very, very unnerving and painful to us.
So we wonder, it's like, what is God doing?
Well, He wants us to be patient because He is working everything together for good.
Some things we can understand. Many things we just have to trust him and know that he will work it out.
So. I think That's how I see it. What do you find contributes to that feeling of isolation or abandonment by God? Is there one thing, or are there maybe a couple of factors that push people in that direction? What do you think, Nicole?
Why do you think people Sometimes feel abandoned or feel God is uncaring or unconcerned with what's happening in our personal or family or couple life? I think. The first thing that comes to mind for me is that His timetable is not ours.
So we pray for something to happen. We pray, you know, whatever it is that our prayer is, you know. Fix my marriage. Fix my kids. you know, whatever.
And We think, okay, if I pray for this for this amount of time, then something's going to happen. And that. That timeframe that we have in our minds comes and goes. And nothing has changed. And so we think.
Well then What is he doing? I think you're exactly right. Yeah, we were talking about this in devotionals last night for the worship team. And I said, you know, God's standards and God's timing are not only different from ours, they're almost complete because he exists outside of time. And so his standards are so different.
So we gave the example: Am I willing to let my son get hurt? In order to teach him a lesson to some degree. Yeah. Like if he's jumping on the couch and he falls off, like, yeah, I'm willing to let that happen. What if I knew he was going to break his arm or clip his head on the then you're like, okay.
Yeah. And so we expect God to have the same standards. Like God. It's okay to hurt me a little, hurt, quote unquote, hurt me a little bit to teach me a lesson, but not too much. Yeah.
And so then when it goes past what we think our standard is, we're like, God's not good. Yeah. God's not with me.
Well, and also, too, that, you know, that whole thing of God's not good, a lot of times I think we make decisions. And we, you know, we make choices in life. And then it we reap the consequences of that decision that and it's not a good consequence. And so we turn around and we blame God. But we were the one that made the decision.
We tend to forget that we made the decision. I mean, there is something called free will. And so, in God's complex plan, which is not complex as in complicated, complex as in we don't see all the moving parts, we don't see the future, we don't see how all things are going to converge and work together for good. Even God's going to use the enemy. as a tool As an instrument to bring God's grace to us.
So we don't see all of that.
So sometimes it can be very difficult to say, okay, God is working. God is not done. God is going to. Bring everything together for good. Yeah.
How do you manage that? Maybe both you guys can chime in on this because a lot of people might not know this, but the ministry arm of Lighthouse Counseling. Or the counseling alarm, I would say, of Lighthouse Counseling here at Clearview is starting to really pick up speed and go strong. And so you're seeing clients now, you're talking to people. How do you convey a truth like that with someone who's been through trauma, either trauma that is like legitimate or maybe trauma that is I don't want to say it's not legitimate, but you know what I mean.
Like, how do you bring in this whole thing of, you know, we make choices and sometimes we reap those consequences? Because for us, you know, sitting in this nice air-conditioned studio, of course, we can say that. But someone who's really going through it, how do you communicate that? It all depends on their story, you know, and of course, if. If it's decisions that they've been making, I mean, they pretty much.
When you come into counseling, If you don't tell me the truth, then I'm going to give you answers. I'm going to give you things. That are what you're telling me.
So you have to be honest. It's kind of like cheating at Solitaire. You're only doing yourself a discussion. What did you mean? If you're honest, if you're honest with me and you tell me, you know, all the stuff, then I can come in and I can really, you know, as I pray about what God wants me to tell you, I can give you like not answers.
We, as counselors, we cannot give you answers. We can only get you thinking. We can only ask you questions or say something to. Get you thinking about okay, what is my next step? Yeah, how do I do this?
Because I am not the expert in your life, right? You are the expert. I was going to ask, why is that distinction important? But I think you just answered it. You're not the expert in their life, they're the expert.
You just kind of give them the push or the nudge they need in various areas. Yeah, you try to get them thinking. In that way, you know, and especially with clients that are Christians, they know. Overarching that God is in control, but when their life is falling apart. They lose sight of that sometimes.
And so you bring that back and say, you know, God knows. What is going on? Have you prayed about it? Have you had people come to you, Dr. Shaw, with that misconception?
Like, I'm coming to you for answers. I don't want to think. I don't want to be led on this journey. I just want answers.
Well, I've had different kinds of people come to talk to me about things in their lives.
Some people come and they just simply need confirmation. They're not interested in my advice. They just need confirmation. And sometimes it's good confirmation, like, yeah, you're on the right track. Other times, it is not a confirmation that I'm willing to give because it doesn't line up with the word of God.
It doesn't line up with the truth.
So. If you're asking me to say something that would help soothe their conscience, I can't say that.
Some people come looking for confirmation.
Some people come, definitely, like you said, looking for advice, looking for guidance, looking for direction. And then. you know, Help them there. But again, In a 40-minute, 50-minute conversation, how much can I give them a perfect assessment? True.
That's true. I can give so much, and then. Go, okay.
Well, let's take some baby steps. Let's try this and let's try that. But overall, Human beings are complex, the world is complex. God and His Word is what entangles some of that complexity.
So, anyways, I mean, there are people who. Just one confirmation, then there are people who are genuinely like, I don't know what to do, help me. And so, and then there are people in between. Yeah. Do you find that there's one group that is we're talking about this move from dysfunction to resiliency?
We talked about that a little bit in the previous episodes. Do you find that there is one group of those people though? I can't remember the way that you just you just put it, the ones who are That want confirmation are the ones who are like, I don't know what to do, help me. Is there one group that's more? apt to move toward resiliency?
Yes, the well, the group that is not going to move towards resiliency are the group that thinks that healthy family is the goal. And we are very healthy last I checked. And that's not a good good assessment because none of us are healthy. Our families are not healthy. Our our ancestors are not healthy.
If you go all the way back to Adam and Eve, not healthy. You go to Cain and Abel, definitely not healthy. That's a great point. The first family, you got You got problems. Big problems.
So we have to move from The healthy to the dysfunctional family, which is all of us. We're all carrying the DNA that was in Adam and Eve, which is a DNA of sin, and we all are prone to sin. It's really interesting you say that because we just spent, like, man, I think we spent like two or three weeks talking about alcohol and like the problems that people have with alcohol. And the very first step that AA teaches you is that you have to admit that you have a problem. I think people are way more apt to admit they have a problem there than to admit that their families are dysfunctional.
Why do you think that is? I mean, it's embarrassing. Yeah, but I mean, yes. I don't know. I just feel like someone would be willing to say, yes, I'm an alcoholic.
And they're like, okay, but your family? Like, no, no, my family's healthy. Like, it's me that's got the problem. I mean, I guess that's I get yeah, I can see that, but I think also we're worried. W I mean, think about it, you're worried about what Other people think about sometimes it's not really what they think about me.
But what do they think about my wife or my husband or my kids? Because Let's face it, our kids are A reflection of who we are. And, you know, think about it when you get that first phone call that your kid misbehaved in school. I'm dreading that phone call. And it was my son's second day of school ever, and I'm dreading that phone call.
That's funny. I think that's the reason why. You think that's more of a do you think that's a universal thing, or do you think that's more like in the South or more among an age demographic? Or do you think that's just people in general? Oh, it's the world over.
Yeah. Yeah. World over. We like to defend our family. And sometimes there are people who will take all the blame.
I'm the problem. I'm the source because they don't. It hurts them to see that their children are making the decisions that they are because they feel like I am the reason for your failure and your wrong actions.
So you start blaming yourself and you find some kind of a redemption in blaming yourself. But there is none. And it's because it's not true.
Some part of it is true.
Some decisions we made do impact our children, but many decisions are being made because they are inherently sinful, because they have the same. Sinful DNA running through them that is running through us. They're also individuals against whom Satan has launched an attack.
So it's not just against Adam and Eve or Cain and Abel or against me and my wife, but also against my children.
So You know, it hurts to think that they are suffering because of us. You also brought up a great point in one of your recent messages about how parents are quick to. Kind of paint this picture of a healthy family. Like we got it all together, everything's figured out, we're all good. But kids are the ones who are quick to cry dysfunction.
Right. They're the ones who are quick to label my family's dysfunctional. My parents are messed up. We're all messed up. There's no hope.
What do you think contributes to that difference in view of the family? I would say social media. Oh my goodness. I think, yeah, I think you're right. I think social media has a huge part to play.
That's a parent's worst nightmare. My, my, Teenagers, my newly minted teenagers, just got phones for the first time. Oh, wow. And one of our first. Ground rules.
Stipulations. One of the first ground rules was: you are not to have any social media. You can have this phone, it is for communication. Obviously, you can download games and play games on it, but as a device, you are not to have any social media. That's weird because I saw Hartley Hill and Anoah Hill on Facebook today.
Oh, well, that'll be short. I promise you that. I'm joking. I'm joking. It was MySpace.
There's no one on MySpace. Oh, my God. Nothing. No trouble for that. There's no trouble for getting you on MySpace.
That was one of the first things because, you know, while we're trusting you with this device, you do not need to have the entire world accessing you on a social media. You're right, man. That's right.
You're 100% right. Yeah, I agree. In your sermon last week, we were talking about how social media, especially TikTok. is launched by China, you know, to dismantle the American family because they want to destroy us. And I truly believe that, that's also not only is it Is it their agenda, but it's also the enemy's agenda to dismantle the family, to destroy.
Especially Christian families. Yeah. And so that's what kids today are being fed: that your family's dysfunctional. You know, you've had trauma. I've had trauma.
And, you know, I'm triggered by this. I'm whatever. I really loved the series that you did, Dr. Shah, that was on these generations and the difference between all these generations because it's so fascinating how many different factors there are. Like sometimes I wonder, like with what you were talking about, for example, how older people in the boomers' generation, like my parents' generation, they're like, hey, if there's dysfunction, you don't talk about that.
You pretend everything's cool. Put on your happy face. Like that's, that's my parents. And like, I think all of. Like many people that age, that's them to a T.
And then you've got people who are in Generation Z who are like, no, you know, air it out, air all your dirty laundry because it gets you clout and it gets you attention. I wonder if it's the case that when. The Gen Z are boomers age. If they will start behaving more like boomers, or if they carry all that social media influence with them through the years. And I don't know if there's even a relevant answer, but I guess what I'm saying is it's so interesting to see how many factors play into all these generational differences.
If you're talking about generational differences and talking about the boomer generation or that World War II generation, they were big on getting help. They were big on, you have problems, I have problems, go get help.
Sometimes that mentality or that way of thinking has created more problems. I have a problem, you have a problem. We all have problems. Here's a problem, there's a problem, you know, a lot of problems.
So, it it made things very difficult when everywhere there's a problem. but it also brought to light the need to have counseling and things like that. Mm-hmm.
So talking about our generation Which is has been impacted by social media about being. Um you know, traumatized and And dysfunctional, maybe it's making us aware that there is something called trauma. that we were afraid to talk about before. Maybe it's making us aware that there is something called dysfunctionality, which at one time we were like we would laugh it off.
So maybe there is something good that came out of it. And hopefully, we can turn it around for something better. How do we begin this move as individuals or as family units from dysfunctionality? Which you already said, everybody's dysfunctional. We're all starting from the same place, varying degrees of dysfunctionality, but we're all dysfunctional.
How do we begin that move from being dysfunctional to developing resiliency? Resiliency is the goal because that's where we're trying to get to. The goal is to go from dysfunctionality, which is faulty coping mechanisms and mental illness and therapy and all this, to resiliency, where a family can bounce back in times of stress. Family relationships should be a place of learning and support and education where the individuals can develop healthy ways. of dealing with their crisis.
So I would say What should you do to become a resilient family?
Well, I would say definitely seek professional help. I mean, Nicole is that professional on our staff here, and people come not just from Clearview, but they're coming from other places. You know, we we've also talked a lot about trauma and Nicole, I know that's what your specialty was in as far as like your master's degree. That's what you specialized in. With us sitting here talking socially, if we were to see somebody Like online, say, and they're like, Hey, I went through this really traumatic experience that was legitimate.
We could say, Okay, yeah, that was pretty traumatic. Or if we see a teenager who, like, I don't know, didn't get their way at Starbucks or they had a customer yell at them or something, and they say, I'm traumatized. We just. Colloquially, can make that judgment call that he wasn't traumatized. We know it's quote unquote not real trauma.
As a counselor, are you able to bring that? Judgment, I don't know if it's the right word, but are you able to bring that into the session, or do you have to treat all trauma as legitimate?
Well, when they first come in, you can't look at them and say, I don't believe you were traumatized. Right, right. You you listen to their story and then you just you kind of begin to peel back So to speak, the onion. and help them understand. What is trauma?
Especially to a kid who comes in and says, I've been traumatized.
So you have to kind of peel it back and say, you know, this is trauma. This is what this is what this looks like. Is this what you're going through? Right. And asking them, you know, is this what this looks like?
And then they come to realize: wait a minute, maybe. is not. What I think is trauma. That's just what they're being fed.
Well, other than getting help, you should also try to, as a counselor, I know you try to do that, help the family's connection to each other. Because one thing that Nicole said, you know, it's not just what is happening to us, it's what's happening between people who are in the crisis. Great point. It all has to do with communication or lack. of communication.
So if you don't if you're not communicating with the people in your family. Talking about even the hard stuff, then how are you going to become resilient? How are you going to become that cohesive unit as a family? You have to. Hone For a bit, I don't know a better word to use.
Hone your communication skills. You have to learn what, what is it, and put it into practice. How often are you able as a counselor and Dr. Shah, as a as a Person who counsels from a pastoral standpoint, how often are you able to help people? Bridge that communication gap, or is it mostly individual work?
Like, are you able to work with groups or couples or families and help that communication gap? Open up. I have worked with families before, and it is not easy. Just when you think you have found a breakthrough or it seems like it's we're headed to a good place, and you take a more confident Step In helping resolve their family conflict, sometimes one side will pull out or they will say, That's it. Have they returned on you?
Um never turned on me like like permanently, but did not like the fact that I was Getting them to sort of come meet in the middle. Gotcha. They felt like I was taking sides or something. And it doesn't go well. Yeah.
So, yeah, it does happen when families don't listen and then you find yourself in a mess. Yeah. I've only ever. Counseled individuals and couples. And so, with individuals, of course, you can teach them these skills, but Their job is to go home and to put those skills into practice, right?
And then with couples, you can kind of do it as exercises right there in the office and. work with them on how you know You give each one a certain amount of time and say, okay, this is how we're going to communicate. This is how we're going to do this. And sometimes it works and like you said, and sometimes it doesn't necessarily backfire, but you get to the point where I have felt like a ping pong ball at times where, you know, I'm like, wait a minute, let's take a break here. Let's start over again.
When do you make that shift from, is there ever a time to make that shift from an individual coming in to see either of you to say, hey, we need to actually bring in the whole family?
Well, for me, there have been many times that I've talked to the whole family, and the way I do it is I'll meet with the whole family. kind of sorta um put in words what the problem has been, And then I will say, Okay, let me meet with you all first. Let's sit down and I'll bring the other group to come. Sit in the cafe or somewhere or in the waiting room that we have, and then talk to them and make some suggestions. Like, look, we gotta meet in the middle.
If you truly want reconciliation here, you gotta meet in the middle. And then I'll bring the other per group in and let this group go sit out, and then I'll talk to them the same thing. And I'm trying to be the peacemaker there.
Sometimes it works great. People are like, Wow, this is. Wonderful. We finally were able to communicate. Other times they will say, yeah, yeah, but then you see that they are reluctant to come back.
Was there any sort of like formal education for pastoral counseling, or is it just years of both, both? But I did have formal education in Christian counseling, especially as a pastoral.
So important for us in this conversation about moving from dysfunctionality to resiliency. I know there's lots more ground to cover, but we got to land the plan for today. But Nicole, thank you so much for being on the show today. Oh, thanks for having me. Lots of lots of more conversation to have around this topic.
Guys, make sure you join us tomorrow. Same time, same station. We're going to be diving into another great topic here on the Clear Vee Today Show. Thanks again to our sponsors for making today's episode possible. Don't forget that you can support us by subscribing to the show on iTunes if you want to re-listen.
You can always support us financially at Clear Vee Today Show. I'm so sorry, not Clear Vee Today Show. Abadanshad.com forward slash give. Don't worry, I'm going to fix those run sheets one of these days. Sean, close this out.
Well, we're definitely chugga, chugga, chugga along. Towards 50,000 followers on Pray.com. If you're one of the 35,000 who have already followed Dr. Shaw, first and foremost, want to say thank you. Thank you for your support.
Thank you for all your financial contributions to keep the show going. We love you and we want to get to 50,000. We're going to have a special celebration episode when we do.
So make sure you're that 50,000th follower. That's right.
We love you guys. We'll see you tomorrow on Kiwi Today.
