You're listening to Clearview Today with Dr. Abadan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis, and we are so glad to have you back in the Clearview Today studio today. Before we introduce Dr.
Shah, I want to see if I can beat the drum roll to the punch.
So, we are here with Dr. Avadan Shah, who is a PhD in New Testament textual criticism, professor at Carolina University author, full-time pastor, and the host of today's show, Dr. Shah. I was getting scared. I didn't want, I wanted to beat the drum roll.
Dr. Shah, welcome to the studio. I have no words. You sound like an auctioneer. After that performance, I have no words.
You know what's funny? You know what's funny? I actually started when I was like in college, I wanted to do auctioneer. I thought it was so I had no idea. That's funny.
Yeah. You said that because I wanted to do auctioneering as well. Isn't it fun to listen to?
Well, not for that reason. Oh. I wanted to do it because of preaching. Yeah. Because in the early, early years, like.
First couple of years of learning to preach, I used to get tongue-tied. I was like, Man, I need to loosen up. And look at the auctioneers. I mean, they are just like going at it so fast. And I watched a few of them, and I'm like.
I need to take a course in this.
So, I actually talked to one of the auctioneers I knew. I used to work with him at a warehouse. I said, What would it take to do that? He said, Not much. You need to just sign up for this course.
And there's this famous auctioneer, and just get with him, and he will include you in the course. And man, it's great. You could be doing auctions. I was like, I don't want to do auctions. He's like, Oh.
Why do you want to do this? I'm like, I just want to be able to speak faster. Yes. Yes. I 100% agree with you.
So this is not something I would recommend. This is before I became a Christian and got my life right with the Lord, but I listened to listen to rap. I liked rap and I liked, especially I liked Eminem. There's a guy on YouTube that I really like. His name was Watsky, but they do like fast rap.
It's really fast articulate. And when you nail it, it was just really impressive. And I was always drawn to that style of like rhythmically. And so I saw that in some auctioneers. I actually saw people on the internet take auctioneers and put it to a hip-hop beat.
And I mean, it's really impressive.
So it was sort of like that, but I didn't actually ever do it. Did you do the course? No, it it was just no time 'cause the course was in another town. I think it was in like Louisburg somewhere. We were living in Wake Forest at the time.
It would take like an hour to get over there. And I'm like, no, maybe I'll do somewhere down the road. But then It never happens. I showed your two boys because they listened. I mean, they listen to like Christian rap and they're like, they know some like rap music or whatever.
But I showed some, I showed them like how I could rap fast. They weren't impressed. That's not, it's not cool to do anymore. Yeah. That's not cool.
Like what's cool now is to sound like you've got like a mouth full of cough syrup. Yeah. Just mumble through all. Just mumble everything. But I was like, no, look, listen how fast he is articulate.
He's got, he's on the beat every time. He's like, that's not cool, bro. We don't like that.
Now, there is, there is a Christian rapper who's who's kind of like front and center in that world, NF. His name, he just goes by the letters NF. He sounds very similar to Eminem, but really super talented. And he raps that kind of very fast. I love that.
Yeah. I love that really fast articulate.
Well, I'll tell you what will not help you speak fast. What's that? Drinking. In fact, it almost always has the opposite effect. 100%.
100%. And that kind of leads into today's verse of the day. That's right. Our verse of the day today is coming from Romans chapter 13, verse 12. The night is far spent, the day is at hand.
Therefore, let us cast off the works of darkness and let us put on the armor of light. One of the things I really appreciate about the Bible, Dr. Shaw, especially as someone who's really into writing, and I like to notice how people write, is the Bible is so full of like concepts. Contradictory language in the sense of not this, but this. Don't do this, but do this.
And I think that's never been more apparent. Seriously, it's never been more apparent than it is on the issue of drinking. Not this, not reveling in drunkenness, but be sober-minded. Right. Not in the day, but the light.
But the light. Not in the night, but the light. Yes. And it uses this imagery so well. And yet there's still so much, I don't even want to call it confusion.
There's still so much resistance to this. No, I want that. And people even use the Bible to support their view that God was okay with drinking.
Now, keep in mind, while God allowed. Drinking, he never condoned it. To the contrary, he often condemned it. One of the passages that we ended our last broadcast or our show with was Proverbs 23, where it talks about how the wine just looks so beautiful, so inviting, just nice and red and bubbly. But when it Is drank or drunk in the end, it bites like a serpent, it stings like a viper.
It's not good for you. You will do things, you will see strange things. And then the next day you will get up and you will say, I want another drink. Yes. And I think one thing that maybe we can kind of talk about today as we continue this conversation, because I'm sure people are going to be like, why are y'all harping on this so much?
But people's lives are genuinely destroyed by this. Oh, absolutely. It's not just, oh, I'm going to wake up with a hangover. And it's not just a person's life, it's the lives of those around them. It always affects more than just that individual.
That's right. That's right. That's right. So. One question people often ask me is Why didn't God just Make a law.
Instead of 10 commandments, make them 11 commandments. Why didn't God just say, Thou shalt not drink? Right. And then we'll just be done with it. We should be done with it.
We don't have to worry about it. And the way I explain to people, and it really helps them, is that. The Bible was written to help people get saved. What what I mean by that is It was written so it would go to every culture.
Now, I know the whole Bible was not like handed down to Adam and Eve or to Moses. No, different books were added with time, then the Old Testament. Then there's a silent period, and then comes the New Testament writings and all of that. But nonetheless, it was written with the goal to go to every culture, civilization, and share the good news that the Savior of the world had come. Come to Jesus and be saved.
But if this command of wine was there. it would be a stumbling block. People would be like, I'm good. I'm good. He said, Well, come on, then, what about the other ones?
What about thou shalt not lie? Thou shalt not commit adultery, thou shalt not covet. Why didn't that become a stumbling block? Because in most every. Culture Those things are already condemned.
Generally those are regarded as bad. Generally they're regarded as bad.
Now there are cultures who will say that you can do that to your enemy or what what not, but most people will say lying is not good. Cheating is not good. Murder is not good. Most people will say that. Right.
Drinking Oh, that's good. That's good. Drinking cannot be bad.
So, we don't want your gospel. We don't want to know about your Messiah. We don't want to know about your God's son, the seed of the woman, the promised one. We're good.
So, you made an illustration when you preached the sermon once that has really hit home for me because I'm in the period now of my life with two kids. One of them's four, one of them's two. And so, Gavin, Gavin is a, I mean, they're both good kids, but Gavin is very sharp and he knows what's expected of him and he knows how to fall in line. And so, they'll be fighting over a toy that and Holden genuinely took it from him. And Gavin's like, but he took it.
And so many times I've been like, Gavin, let him have it. Just let him have it. And you use that illustration that God did the exact same thing when we talk about the strong versus the weak. And I know we'll come to that conversation later. And that's why he allowed this thing.
That's right. So the goal, again, we need to keep in mind of the Bible is to get people saved, not just get people sober.
Now, after you are saved, Then get sober, right?
Okay, then get sober. We read from Proverbs 23 last time, and I want to also emphasize the fact that in the New Testament, This book Like the Gospels, or Paul's letters, or Peter's letters, or James, or the Catholic Epistles, or Revelation, they're being written to people who are already living in a Jewish world view. Mm-hmm. They're living in a in an Old Testament worldview. They don't have to be explained.
All you make sure is is it diluted? Did you all dilute that? They just knew that. They knew that. Like, that went without saying.
Yeah, it's not like Jesus said, okay, guys, go prepare a place in an upper room and get everything ready. We're going to celebrate the Passover together. Oh, remember, it's 3 to 1. Oh. okay three parts of water one part of wine okay because i thought you were i hope i diluted it but i can yeah like they knew they knew paul didn't have to explain that when he was talking to the corinthians they knew so when he tells timothy take a little wine for your stomach it's understood it's diluted yes it's not like he had to go and say hey i know the ancient like the greeks like i you know by the way paul was from tarsus in a very greek world um but people who've never traveled Turkey has more Greek sites than Greece does.
I did not travel to Turkey, but I saw a lot of the footage that you brought back. I was very shocked at how Greek everything looked. Oh, yeah, because it was part of the Greek world. Yeah. Troy was in Greece, right?
Troyas.
So, what we're saying here is Apollo is very aware of these ratios of water to wine.
So, he does not have to tell Timothy, who's also half Greek, that, hey, now make sure you dilute that.
Now, no drinking pure shakar. No funny business, Timmy. No monkey business, Timmy. Yeah, he knew. Right.
So when he says, take some for your stomach, It's not your hardcore liquor that he's talking about. Right. Pour yourself just like a couple of shots of vodka. It'll sell your stomach real quick. Yeah, no.
And then, for us in the modern Western world to say, your drink right out of that cooler over there, same thing, man. Just take a little bit. That's what Jesus drank, man. And Paul's told Timothy to do it. No.
Hello, people. Read the context.
So. In the first century church, it was not expected. And that also tells us that the Bible is the Word of God. Because if I was writing it, guess what? If I were writing the Bible.
If I Was writing the New Testament. I would clarify all these things. Mm-hmm. But then again, I'm not under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Right.
Yeah. That's right. Holy men of God wrote as they were, spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. I have the Holy Spirit. I am filled with the Holy Spirit, but I did not have that inspiration that they did.
Yeah. And that could be a good, strong argument that a lot of clarifications we expect. Are not there because they weren't needed. They were not needed. Yeah.
That's one of the things that I like about our Digging Deep series, which is an exclusive thing that we do. A lot of people look for those online, but it's exclusive to Clearview. But. We forget that the Bible was written for specific people in a specific time. Yes, it's written for people throughout history.
Right. But also, these people in these situations were very real. Yes. Right. That's the key.
Yeah, it was written in a specific time.
So we've got to pay attention to what's going on in the world around and use that lens when we interpret scripture and how it applies to us today. What it meant for them helps you understand what it means for us, and then we apply it.
So going back to this whole discussion on alcohol and wine and all these issues, the New Testament writers did not feel the need to specify. But But if you wanna know how they saw things, Read The early church fathers I'm not talking about All church fathers. I'm not even talking about Augustine and Chrysostom and all of the rest. No, I'm talking about the earliest ones, like Justin Martyr. Justin Martyr wrote in AD 150, and he gave the following instructions about the Lord's Supper.
Blessed is I'm sorry, bread is brought in wine and water. And the president said sends up prayers and thanksgiving. Bread is brought. And wine and water. Not two separate drinks, and you choose which one.
No, this is together. This is the drink, wine and water. Why? Because Justin Martyr is not writing in a Jewish context. He's not riding in Jerusalem.
So he has to specify. He has to specify for those people because a lot of Gentiles, including himself, are. Taking part of the Lord's Supper, and he's like, Make sure it's water and wine, water, and then wine. is mixed together more water Less wine. Also, we have Hippolytus, he writes.
Bless first the bread into the representation of the flesh of Christ and the mixed. For the antitype of the blood which was shed for all who have believed in him. Mixed. He's laying it out too as well. The cup had to be mixed.
Clement of Alexandria Where is Alexandria? Egypt. Right. Listen to what he says. It is best for the wine to be mixed with as much water as possible.
Yes, there were a lot of Jewish people in Alexandria. But again, this church is now growing, it's going beyond the bounds of just Jewish people. This has to be specified.
So even though the New Testament authors did not, because they're audience didn't need it.
Now that the church is going to all the world The pastors or the leaders or the church fathers have to say, I know y'all don't know this 'cause you don't do this. You didn't grow up doing this?
Okay. But here's how it's been. Here's how it's done. It is best, this is Clement of Alexandria. It is best for the wine to be mixed with as much water as possible, for both are works of God, and the mixing of the two, both of water and wine, produces health.
Because life is composed of necessary element And a useful element. Necessary element being the water. Yeah. Useful element being the wine. That's right.
So your point is that Jewish people did not need this specification.
Now that the church is starting to grow into the Gentile territory, they need more instructions because they don't. They don't know what Passover is. Of course, they have a general idea from their Jewish neighbors, but now, since they are celebrating, We got to get this right. It makes perfect sense. Yeah?
So. Based on this, based on what we're discussing here. Based on ancient peoples like Greeks and Romans based on The people of Israel In the Old Testament times, based on The people during Jesus' time, even though it's not specified, based on people who came after the first century church. The alcohol content of the New Testament wine, was probably two point seven five To three percent. Wow.
Now, how does that compare with modern Alcoholic beverages. Great question.
So. Let's go back to the distilled alcohol. Remember, we talked about that in yesterday's show, or day before yesterday. Distilled alcohol, something. Perfected, invented, sort of by the Arab alchemists from the 8th century AD.
You're talking like whiskey. Whiskey, gin, rum, brandy, those kind of things. The alcohol content, get ready for this, is 40%. That's heavy. I believe it, though.
40%. 40% would be 1,330 times. thirty percent of The New Testament wine. Goodness. That's 1330.
Of the New Testament wine. And people will use the Bible. As long as it's moderation. As long as I just take one little salt, I'll take a little eye drop. Moderate that.
I can just take a little eye drop or put it on your tongue. Yeah, no, I don't think that's how that works. Wine, which is 15% alcoholic. Yeah, modern-day wine is 15%. That would come up to about 600% compared to the wine in the Bible.
100% times stronger than what Jesus and those guys were drinking. Yeah. Corn liquor gets up to about 80% alcohol. Whoa, that's insane. That would be about 2,000.
Six hundred and sixty percent. Of New Testament wine. You're just destroying yourself at that point. Yeah. 80% alcohol, that's crazy.
That's insane. That's like drinking like. Yeah, you may as well just drink. I was gonna say, you may as well just drink rubbing alcohol. Napalm, just, I mean, it's so harmful for you.
Good, really, that is life. But that's how people die. You know, that's what happens to the liver. Seriously, that's true. That's very true.
Destroying their organs. Budweiser. Yeah, just a can of Budweiser. Yeah. 5%.
Alcohol, which comes down to about 66% compared to New Testament wine. Wow.
66%. And something like Bud Light or Coors Light or Wine Coolers, 4%. That's about 40% of New Testament wine. We we have these monstrous, monstrous versions of alcohol and we're trying to use that to say, because they did it back then, I can have this. You cannot compare this to New Testament wine.
Yeah. We need to keep that kind of measurement in mind when Paul is writing these things.
Now, Robert Stein was a New Testament professor. He's still living, 90 some years of age. And he wrote on this years ago, and this is what he said: he said, to consume the amount of alcohol that is in two martinis.
Okay, get with me on this one. To consume the amount of alcohol that is in two martinis, but drinking wine containing three parts water to one part wine, one would have to drink. Over twenty one glasses. Goodness. So, someone in the New Testament would have to drink 21 glasses of wine to get the same amount of alcohol as two martinis today.
Right. And people would go. It's nothing at all for someone to go to a bar and drink two martinis. Yeah. Oh, yeah, they do it all the time.
And he goes on to say: in other words, it is possible to become intoxicated from wine mixed with three parts water. But once drinking would probably affect the bladder long before it affected the mind. Yeah. You're going to have to go to the bathroom a lot sooner than you're going to feel the effect. That's right.
It's just a game of numbers that doesn't add up. Yeah. So, all that to say, the New Testament content of alcohol was very low compared to the modern content of alcohol. But people in the Bible, they didn't go on these like big, huge binges like we try to justify them doing, did they? I mean, they did, people did, but um.
The ancients talk about them and they go, This is terrible. Uh for example, the Romans did that, you know, when it came to like Bacchanalia or the festival of Dionysus, uh who is the god of wine. And during those periods it got so bad that the Roman Senate was afraid of a of a coup. And they they thought these people are going to go crazy and and attack the government and try to take over. I don't know what they will take over to, but they said, we got to do something.
And so they were passing laws to outlaw drinking excessively during Bacchanalia.
So all that all that is to say You know, what we're talking about today. With drinking, our modern beverages no comparison to ancient times.
So, but when Paul's writing to the church in Rome, like, are they how severely are they arguing over this matter? Is it sort of like what we have today where the Christians are split to where no matter what, I'm going to drink? It was an issue. It was an issue. Yeah.
It was an issue. And maybe next episode, we can talk a little bit about the status or the state of drinking wine in Rome. Sure. But I do want to cover one more thing because I know there are a lot of intelligent people who are listening to our broadcast.
Now, someone might say that people in biblical times drank different amounts than what we have in a can or a bottle.
So. The rabbis debated what was a generous portion Of the Passover wine. That kind of helps us sort of set a standard of how much would a person drink. Right. Where they're drinking tons and then I'm drinking just one can.
I mean, maybe at the end of the day, it kind of balances out. Yeah. So. They had a measurement called quarter log.
Okay. Quarter log, and there are other measurements too, but quarter log would be the amount of liquid in. One and a half egg. Like an actual egg, like an actual egg. Yeah.
Okay, okay. The volume. Of one and a half egg.
Okay. That's a quarter log. That's a quarter log. Okay. Okay.
And so others have said, no, that's not true. Each of the four cups was a quarter log.
Okay. So one group of rabbis were saying if you add All of them. It would be a quarter log. All four of those cups. Of mixed wine.
Of, yeah.
Okay. It would be. quarterlog. Another group said no It has to be each cup. Each cup is A quarter log.
So four and a half, six eggs worth of mixed.
Something like that. There's no way someone's getting drunk on that. Yeah, well, so Passere wine, if you go by four cups together, quarterlog. would be four point two three ounces.
Okay. If each of the four cups is a quarter log, Then do the math, this times four, it comes to about seventeen ounces. That would make it about Eight ounces per cup.
Okay. Four cups together would be 4.23 ounces, which is like half a cup. Passover time? Each of the four cups being a chordalogue that would make it two cups. That's the pass over.
The Passover wine. Wine. That's mixed. Those four cups, yeah.
Okay. If you were to compare that with our whiskey based on the alcoholic content. For you to have that much It would give you only 1.82 teaspoons under the four cups being together quarter law.
So, if someone really wants to get biblical and say, I really want to do this according to the Bible, they got to have. Basically, two teaspoons of white. I mean, you weren't far off with the eye drop. Yeah. And but if you say, No, no, no, wait a minute, wait a minute.
I go with those other rabbis, the fun rabbis, who said who said, who said each cup is a quarter log.
So add them all up. You get like quarter log, coralog, coral, coralogue. Add them all up. That's that's how it's supposed to be.
Well, you get 2.57 tablespoons. Yeah, you're gonna look real cool. You're gonna look real cool with your little tablespoon of whiskey, slurping it like hot soup. Yeah. So You're not getting as much as you think you're getting.
Right. What if it's wine?
Well, wine would be 1.35 tablespoons under. all four cups together making a quarter log. How about if each of those cups is a quarter log? Then in that By that standard, you will have 0.34 cups. Not even half a cup.
Not even half a cup. One third. Yeah. Yeah. How about something like a Bud Light?
Yeah, something something casual. Yeah, something casual. It's not that much wine in it.
Okay, well how much will that come to? Coralogue? being four cups together. It's 0.25 cups. This much.
Like a quarter of a cup. Yeah, yeah. What if each of the four cups is a coral log? Add them all up? That's one cup.
Of Bud Light. Of Bud Light. So, yeah, you could do technically speaking, you could do a cup of Bud Light. Yeah, but ain't nobody doing that. Nobody's drinking just a cup of Bud Light.
Yeah. This one. That's crazy. Like a shot glass is about three tablespoons.
So, so, like, so that's about someone would have to do a shot of whiskey, and that's then you're done. Yeah. Nobody's doing that. Nobody's doing that. Because.
each of the four cups together. Under the measurement that All those cups together make a coralogue, then you get only 1.82 teaspoons of whiskey. Wow.
We talked about that a few moments ago. I mean, all that we're saying here is. We are comparing apples and oranges if we try to say that modern alcoholic beverages and New Testament wine are one and the same. Yeah, right. That's true.
As long as I don't get drunk, as long as I eat, drink in moderation, it's no different. And there's a huge world of difference. That's right. And there's a lot of data to back that up. You know, we had to go through three episodes to get to this point, but at the same time, it shows us that this really is not an issue that we can argue about just based on scripture alone.
And I know that sounds weird to say. You have to bring in history. You have to bring in context. Absolutely. You have to bring in Jewish history as well.
If you truly want to study the Bible in its context and understand the role of wine and alcohol in a Christian's life, then you have to be faithful to the information we have, to the evidence we have. That's right. Based on that evidence, modern alcoholic beverages cannot compare. With New Testament wine. That's right.
The content today is so far more, even down to beer.
Okay, whiskey and distilled alcohol is way out there. Wine. but still way out there. Beer Wine coolers, are definitely Uh I would say less but Still compared to New Testament wine, they don't hold a can. They are so much more.
So much more. That's right. And understanding it in light of the full conversation is so important for us. And this conversation is far from over because so far we've just been talking about the science and the facts and the figures behind this and kind of setting up the framing of the argument. Right.
There's a lot more to talk about as far as how this affects people's lives and their spiritual lives. That's right. Guys, make sure you join us tomorrow, same time, same station. We're going to be diving into another great topic here on the Clearview Today show. Thanks again to our sponsors for making today's episode possible.
And don't forget that you can support us by subscribing to the show on iTunes if you want to re-listen. And you can always support us financially at Abadanshah.com forward slash give. Just want to very quickly remind you guys, we are going live on August the 15th from 7 to 9 p.m. That's part of our 24-hour prayer vigil. But we'll be doing a two-hour live stream where you guys can call us and pray with us on the air.
We'll pray with you as well. That number is 252-582-5028. Go ahead and save it. That number's going to be in your phone for the rest of time. And you can always text us in anytime, but definitely.
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