Friday, May 16 | An Educational Journey

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I'm John Galantis. Welcome to the Clear View Today studio. Happy Friday to everybody who has stuck with us throughout the week. We appreciate you being here. We got a great, great conversation lined up for you guys today. But first, before we do anything else, we got to welcome our host with the most, Dr. Abbadan Shah.

Welcome to the show. Happy Friday, my friend. Happy Friday to you guys.

What a busy, busy week. So much going on, so much happening in the church family, so much happening in our community. And then of course, in our own personal family, you know, we had graduation coming up.

So I should have saved the applause for Thomas. Our youngest son is graduating. And what is very interesting is that that marks the end of a 25 year era of nothing but schools, no more kids in at least high school, high school. So, or, you know, or school for that matter, because it all began in 2000, when Rebecca, who is our oldest one, began kindergarten. Wow. That's crazy. And that's the same year I also started my PhD. Wow. In New Testament textual criticism. That's the same year I went into teaching because the school zone that we were in was having a really difficult time.

I mean, it was not good at all. And so we had some church members whose family was on the board of education and a lot, a lot of powerful people. And they came to me and said, what if, what if we get Rebecca into this charter school that is, that started last year, which was 1999, but they need a math and science teacher.

Would you consider teaching? Because we know you, we've heard that you have a degree in math and science. And I said, oh, yes, I'll do it. Knowing the whole time that I'll do it means I'm also starting my PhD.

Right. And I'm already pastoring this church. I'm also working part time at the seminary painting.

It's going to be a busy, busy year. So I stopped painting for, because of course, working at the school, I was able to get income from that. So I didn't have to travel down to the seminary to paint. But it was a very, very tough, tough time. I can imagine so. And so school has been a huge part of your life ever since the year 2000. Ever since 2000. I mean, this is before 2001. This is before September 11th.

This is before September 11th. Wow. So you get, you get your PhD in 2019.

Right. And then I had to sort of, for those of you like, whoa, wait a minute, you started in 2020. I had to back away for, for a season because you're building a church, building a church. I was also a principal of a Christian school. And then this church began to grow. Our family was growing.

So there's a lot, lot was happening. I had health problems. So in fact, in 2000, when I started my PhD work, I could tell there was something wrong with my back. And I thought I had back trouble, but I didn't have back trouble. I had a tumor in my spinal column.

And so that was pushing against the nerves and causing a lot of pain, which was very similar to a back problem. So all this was at one time. Right.

Wow. So sometimes I will push people at our staff or volunteer. It's like, hey, we can do this. It's not from coming from an unrealistic place.

It's coming from a place like I've done it. Right. Right. Right.

Trust me. You have more in you than you realize. Now you can't stay that way forever. That's why in our church, we're focusing a lot on volunteer ministry and getting people to take over certain aspects so you can do the big things, the big ideas. But yeah, there's a whole lot more in us sometimes than we realize. That's a great point. And even the picture of I'm going to start this, but then I've got to back away for various reasons for a particular season, but then I'm going to come back and I'm going to hit it hard. I'm going to finish my PhD.

Right. I mean, that in and of itself is a beautiful trajectory as an example. That has given me a lot of encouragement over the years because I've been working on my undergrad since 2010 and it's 2020 to five right now. You know, just having to do it one or two classes per semester. But you have to remember what environment you're in and who is influencing you, impacting you. If it's someone like me, then I do understand the value and the place for temporarily backing away, but coming back in strong. I do that. Now there are other people, other places who are like, hey, if you don't get it done now, you'll never get it done.

Yeah. You might as well get it done. You better get it over with because once you, no, that's not how I think.

I think of it more as sometimes you have to make a little bit of adjustment and back away from certain things so you can fully focus on other things. But the thing you backed away from is never gone. You're going to come back to it. And so if you are in an environment like that, which I believe you are at Clearview, then you will finish what you start because I will talk to you about that.

I will encourage you. Think about Nicole, my wife, while we're talking about education, she began her bachelor's the same year I did in 1991. And then of course, in 1994, she sort of backed away. We had our first child, so she was like, I'm going to take a break right now. I'm going to focus on building our home, which is our family really, and raising our children.

And so I said, okay, that's fine. And then she, of course, I got called in the ministry, moved up here, and she had to sort of work. Kind of custodial work is what she did.

Nicole did that in the year 1996, 97. So anyways, so all this was going on. And then a lot of other things happened in our lives.

Church is growing, teaching at the Christian school, all these things. Going back to school was next to impossible. And at one point, she even tried.

She tried to, I'm not going to mention the name of the school because I liked the school, but that was a very difficult because they kept on finding one thing after another to keep her from enrolling. Yeah. Wow.

I hate it. Were you in North Carolina at this point? Yes. Okay.

But the school is not in North Carolina. Got you. Got you.

Is she going online? She was starting to do online in the 90s. No, this was in 2000. Got you.

This was in 2010. Okay. Oh, okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah.

You're right. And just could not seem to get this university to really get her going. This was a two, three year process of back and forth. She started school, had to drop out.

It was crazy. Anyways, so I was finishing up my PhD as a Nicole. It's time to go back and do your bachelor's, finish your bachelor's. She's like, no, I'm going to wait. I'm going to wait.

There's so much happening. I was like, no, you're going to start this fall. You're going to start this fall. This is in 2019. 2019, the same year I was graduating with my PhD and she started and believe it or not, she finished in 2022. But here's, here's the interesting part. It's not over.

Yeah. Because in 2023, I told her she wants, she says, I want to take a break. I want to take a break. And I don't know if she took a break or not. I think she took a semester.

Maybe a semester break. I'll say, you're going back for your master's. She said, I don't know about that.

If you know my wife, I don't know about that. I'm not, it's like, you're going to get your master's. You need to do your master's. Your parents would be proud. Her dad is in heaven now. But I said, but I'm sure your family's going to be proud.

You need to do your master's. And guess what? This Saturday, the same day that our son is graduating from his high school, Nicole is graduating with her master's. That's awesome. That's awesome. She's glad she did it.

Yes, that's good. But here's what I told her. Now she has to go back and get a doctorate. She's like, no, no, I've drawn the line right there.

She's been saying a lot. I said, you can take a year break. I'm taking two years break.

I'm like, we'll see. Y'all do it together. Cause you're going to try to for your second PhD.

I said, take a year break, but then you're going back. One of my goals is for all of y'all to go back and maybe get your doctorate, get your master's, get your doctorate, whatever, and do those things. Absolutely. But to rush and get it done now, you can.

What are you achieving? I agree. I agree.

And it's also kind of funny. Ellie was talking to Nicole last night. She said, I feel like there's sort of a handing of the baton happening because the same year that Nicole is graduating, Thomas is graduating.

You guys are like, okay, school accomplished. Gavin is starting kindergarten. What's it called?

K four. I was thinking about that too. Like Thomas is ending the school era and then Gavin is just entering into it. That's crazy.

Isn't it? School has been, school has been a big motivator for Gavin. Gavin's very motivated. If you give him the right motivation, like if he does, he's a lot like me where it's like, if this is something I don't care about, it's really hard to get any momentum going.

So like, he's been having some trouble with like bedwetting and, and like getting rid of the pull ups all together. And we told him, you know, if you are not potty trained, there are no pull ups in school. You're not going to school with your friend, Asher. You're not going to school with your friends. And he was like, what? I was like, yeah, you're not. I was like, they can't be changing pull ups in school, buddy. You mean to tell me.

And not an accident since it's been like five, it's been like five weeks. Your boys are very smart, especially Gavin. Gavin is very, very smart. So when you give him that kind of a reason and really work with him on that and give him that ultimatum, he will do it. Oh yes. A hundred percent.

If you don't, then he will make the plans for you. He is a, he's a, he's a situation setter. He's going to frame the, and I've, I see a lot of myself in him.

He's like, okay, I can get ahead of this if I frame the situation. Right. Yeah. So, so while we're on the subject, so David, what, what is, what's happening in your life now? You were, you were at the college at Southeastern for some time doing your bachelor's and then you took a little deviation.

A little bit of a hiatus. And now I am at, there's a college in Florida called Full Sail University that does all digital like media and film and stuff like that. And since that's, you know, what we do here, I decided to do that, you know, with your guidance.

How do you like it? It's, it's really cool. The classes are really cool.

Like one class that I'm in now is called, I think it's Composition is the name of it. And pretty much everything that I'm doing is stuff that I would do on a normal everyday basis. I have to send in like screenshots of a camera that I'm working with. And then I have to send in these shots that I've taken. But a lot of things that you're doing there, you, you, you have been doing here at a more advanced level for some time, at least for this point, at least until now, right? Yeah. At this point in time, everything that I am doing, I have done just over and over, like since coming on to Clearview and being like even an intern here.

So it's right now, it's really easy. It's just making time to do it. And I'm sure that as I go on, there'll be more stuff that I can learn because I'm by no means not know everything about filming, but it's been really nice.

It's been really cool. One of the good things about working here was I remember there was a point and Dr. Shah, I know you remember this too, where our videos, we were putting a ton of effort into setting everything up, but they just were not looking good. And I remember we came to the decision, like the lights just aren't good. Like if like you can get the best camera, the best lens, the best everything, but if the lighting isn't good, Dr. Shah bought us a textbook, like the textbook on lighting and the fundamentals of lighting.

And I remember David and I both read it and ever since then our videos look really, really excellent because we took the time and because Dr. Shah, you invested in that education. It was one of those things where it's like, all right, YouTube videos are not going to help you guys. YouTube videos are not the answer here. Typically their answer is, hey, listen, guys, you don't need the fancy gears. You don't need any of that. Just do this. And then it's like, but you're doing it. You have all those things.

You have all those gears and you have all these things, but you're telling us not to do this. Like pastors who are super successful have big congregations and doing so many things, writing books, conferences, all that. And they tell you, it's like, hey guys, it's not about any of those things. Do you ever see that in the field of academics? Do academics do that with each other or will they be honest and be like, no, it's going to take a lot of hard work and research? Academics, there are different levels of people even there. So there are some academics who are like, I got my PhD.

I'm happy. I'm at a college. It may be a community college.

It may be a four year college. I am set. I'm an adjunct. I'm happy with what I'm doing. Then there are those who are like, I'm happy, but I'm going to start something. I'm going to do something.

I'm going to start a program or I'm going to start a special school or, or, you know, if it's in the Christian academic world and I'm going to see if we can take a mission trip and maybe start a college somewhere in an, uh, you know, uh, under-powerished, uh, impoverished region of the world and start something there. Then there are those who are like, I have a great PhD. It may not be from Cambridge and Harvard and Moonster or someplace like that, but it's a pretty good PhD.

So I'm going to try with that to write. Then there are those who are like, I went to Harvard. I went to Princeton. I went to Yale. I went to Oxford, Cambridge. I went to... Have you ever met academics like that? Oh yeah, I know them.

Some of them are my friends now. And they're like, we are the series editors. We do this. We do that. And then there are those who do go to those places and they, they made it, but at the same time, they're not as, um, well versed in, in, in starting a series and all those kinds of things.

So they have the degree, but they don't, they're not able to get a lot of products out of that. I have a, I have a, I have a question and maybe, maybe this isn't a false analogy, but, um, I want to, I want to try to frame it correctly and you tell me if this is kind of how it works. So like for me, when it comes to like worship and singing, I'm not the strongest singer.

I'm okay. And I've been working to get better. I've been taking lessons and we have a coach that kind of works with me on that, but I know I will never be a naturally talented, like, like really superstar singer. So I work harder and try to hone my craft, not to keep up, but just because I know this is not natural. This is something I've got to work at in the world of academics. If someone goes to Harvard or Cambridge or, or an Ivy league school and gets their PhD from them from there, do you feel like other academics who get their PhDs elsewhere, not at an Ivy league school feel like, Hey, I'm going to produce and I'm going to work harder because I didn't, but I don't have that Ivy league marker. I don't have that Ivy league marker. Or do you feel like it's the opposite where it's like, they feel like I got my degree from Harvard. I'm good. I don't need to write anything. The PhD, the diploma, the degree from the school is enough.

All of the above. You you'll see some people who went to Harvard, Cambridge, Duke, which is not an Ivy league school, but it is considered a prestigious school and they don't publish hardly anything. But when it comes to a university college seminary, they love those people because it looks good on their accreditation. Right. So they're going to hang onto that. So in a sense, they already have tenure. Gotcha.

Right. Because they, they have that, that, that PhD from that prestigious school and it looks good for the school. Then there are those who are like, went to those schools and man, they are productive.

They produce things left and right. It's hard. It's hard to talk to them.

It's hard to ever get them to stop and give you an interview or five minutes of your time. I mean, of their time, they're not going to do that. Right. And I have mixed feelings about that. I get it.

I get it. They're very smart and they have a lot to contribute, but you have to interact with people and not just because you're getting some benefit out of them. So with your professor, Dr. Robinson, he, has he released a lot of works or has he released one really, really major work? I would say one major work, but it is really major.

Right, right. It's like the work on the New Testament. So it has spawned a lot of other avenues and materials and has helped research. It's more, correct me if I'm wrong, it's more like I've set I've set the paradigm for the field instead of just his, this published work that I did. Yeah.

Yeah. By, by doing what he did, he's allowed text critics to think outside the box. Now, some people hate it. Some people are like, ah, that's just, that's just KJV or this is TR and it's not the ones who are really text critics. Uh, they understand what Robinson is about. They may not agree with him, but they understand that this is not just TR and KJV. The ones who are ignorant or they have just basic knowledge and they're simply parroting so that somebody over there can pat them on the back and say, ah, I like you. I like you.

Cause you're saying what I say, you hate the Byzantine texts and we all go for the critical texts. Uh, so for that reason, sometimes people it's like, there's a guy in the street and, um, that everybody hates. And then you walk up there and punch the guy. It's like, okay. All right. You're our friend now. Yeah.

So that can happen. Where did he get his PhD from Dr. Robinson? So Dr. Robinson got his PhD from Southwestern, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in, in Fort Worth, but he did his, his master THM, I believe, or master THM, uh, at Southeastern, Southeastern and Wake Forest. But the professor at Southeastern and Wake Forest in New Testament told Dr. Robinson, I cannot supervise your PhD. Your PhD is more advanced than I can handle, but there is a professor at Duke by the name of Kenneth Clark.

If you go to Kenneth Clark and we can set up a deal with him or this, this collaboration, then you can still work at Southeastern, but have him as your mentor. So he still did his PhD with someone who was from what could be considered a very, very reputable school, right? Kenneth Clark went to, uh, what was, was a professor at Duke, but Kenneth Clark was at, uh, got his PhD from University of Chicago.

Gotcha. He worked under, uh, um, EC Colwell. EC Colwell is like the mack daddy of textual criticism. That's EC Colwell. Wow. So Kenneth Clark worked under EC Colwell and then Dr. Robinson worked under Kenneth Clark. Right. And you worked under Dr. Robinson, right?

But it doesn't end there. When he went to Southwestern, he did his PhD. It's all in textual criticism. He worked under James Brooks. James Brooks worked under Bruce Metzger at Princeton. Gotcha. Gotcha.

Gotcha. So there is just a few steps away from these kind of giants in the field, right? So here you have, uh, for his master's THM, I believe, is going back to EC Colwell and for his PhD, going back to Bruce Metzger. Wow. So I worked under Robinson who worked under James Brooks, who worked under Bruce Metzger. Who got his PhD from Princeton. You're talking about Bruce Metzger?

Yeah. Bruce Metzger did his PhD at, uh, at, uh, Princeton. So also, um, James Brooks got his PhD under Bruce Metzger at, uh, Princeton. So by the transit of property, then we can say that you got your PhD from Princeton.

The transit of property of degrees. We can say that is kind of what I was going to ask. And this conversation has sort of gone to really some interesting places I wasn't planning on, but how much teaching is there in the PhD process? So what I mean by that is you're presenting your dissertation to your mentor, to your, your professor, I guess you would say, is that still a teaching process where he's saying, okay, now it's time for some lessons.

Or is he just editing and saying, no, I wouldn't say it this way. Like how much give it like in a, in a regular school setting, the teacher is teaching, I'm testing to make sure I understand what I've been taught. How is it different in a PhD setting?

Cause you're presenting your ideas. In PhD setting, when you first start in the PhD program, it's assumed that you have a certain level of knowledge. That's where the PhD entrance exams come in. You should have a very good basis for like, if, like if I was going into biblical studies, which is New Testament and maybe Old Testament, but let's say I'm focusing on the New Testament and somebody comes in or in the exam, I'm asked the question, explain the JADP theory, right?

The various sources supposedly that went into making the Pentateuch. I should be able to explain what JADP is all about. That's just base level starting the program. Right.

I should be able to talk about all that entails there. If I was asked the question, explain the synoptic problem, I should be able to then go, okay, synoptic problem. We're talking about these three gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and this is why there is supposedly a synoptic problem. I can say that. Some people will say there is a synoptic problem.

And then why is it? So there are things that they agree on and the things they don't agree on. And then there are things that are unique to each one of those books.

That's a synoptic issue. They can ask me a question, explain to us the question behind the authorship of the pastoral's. I should be able to explain that. Now we're talking about more specific things in my field, New Testament. Explain the Colossian heresy. I should be able to say something.

What are the various ways to interpret revelation? I should, I may not have all the information, but I should be able to give a good bit of it. Are they expecting you to know all this stuff from independent study or from prior learning? Both.

Independent, prior, whatever. Maybe it came out of your master's program. Maybe you studied for the entrance exam.

Either way. So there's an entrance exam to a PhD program? Yes. Is there a guide? Like, these are the things you ought to know.

Basic guide, but the questions are not necessarily limited to that guide. So like if you got your master's, let's just say I'm making this up. If you got your master's in, I don't know, culinary arts, cooking. Yeah. And then decided you wanted to go get your PhD in textual criticism.

You're setting yourself up for failure because they're going to expect that you know all this stuff. Yeah. I would say at that point, they probably will require a master's of divinity. Got it. I would say so. Got it. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah.

So you're not going into the PhD program cold. Like you have to know a bunch of stuff. But in the yesteryears, there were people like say Albert Schweitzer. Albert Schweitzer, I think he had his PhD in the history of theology, I think, because he wrote a lot on that.

Okay. And then he wrote on the New Testament. Then he was an accomplished musician. And he, I think he got some studies done in music as well.

Wow. Then he went and got his medical degree. He became a doctor and then moved to Africa and practice medicine. He ended up having like two or three different doctorates. In unrelated fields. Did he go back and like, say, I'm going to get a bachelor's in this thing. I'm going to get a master's in that. I'm going to get a PhD or MD. I don't know.

I don't know how that worked, but he was very good at what he did. Yeah. What about for you? And we're running out of time. I hate this because I'm actually really into this conversation. But with you, you had your master's in biblical languages. Was textual criticism as a PhD related enough? Yes. Yes.

That's perfectly fine. As long as it's in the divinity field. Like I could have done my master's in comparative religion and still been able to do my master's in my PhD in New Testament. So when you were doing those Intrigues exams and you were like, I'm coming in needing to have all this knowledge. Was it from your master's or was it from independent studies?

No. I did a lot of independent study. Gotcha. A lot of independent study. In fact, I had students who were coming and borrowing my notes for the PhD exam. Wow. Yeah. I did a lot of study.

That's incredible. I still have some of those folders and they were like, Hey, so I'm taking the exam and I've heard that you have all these answers written out and he's like, do you mind if I like, nah, go for it. So I let him use my notes as he just don't lose it. Yeah.

Do not lose it. I worked hard to compile those. Yeah. I mean, I wrote them out by hand. This is back in 1999.

Wow. 98 is when I started studying for the exam. That was in the last year of my, of my master's. I started studying for the PhD entrance exam.

What's one way that you would just in the like two minutes that we have left, what's one way you would encourage our listeners from today's conversation? I would say, but we began this conversation with, we're coming to a close of our season of taking our kids to school. And of course, Thomas is a senior.

He doesn't have to be taken to school, but that's what we mean is like the school years. What I want to encourage people is that it's never too late. If you want to go get some education, it's never too late to go finish that.

Yeah. There are times you may have to back away or may have to like David is doing going in a different direction. It does not mean that you're done with doing a bachelor's, finishing your bachelor's in divinity or in apologetics. You can still come back.

That's right. It comes down to how you have understood God's calling on your life. And as long as that calling is there, you may have to put it away for 20 years.

For goodness sakes, Moses had to put it away for 40 years and he's still, and he still went back to it. Great point. Wow.

Great point. So good. Guys, write in the most know how today's conversation encouraged you two five two five eight two five zero two eight. Let us know what degree program you're enrolling in as a result of today's conversation. Thanks again to our sponsors for making today's episode possible. And don't forget that you can support us by subscribing to the show on iTunes.

If you want to re-listen or share it with a friend and you can always support us financially at clearviewtodayshow.com. John, what do you want to leave our listeners with as we go into the weekend? We are going, well, first and foremost, make sure that you're in church worshiping God this weekend.

If you don't have a church family, you can join us online at clearviewbc.org at 8 30 or 11 a.m. Definitely be checking out Dr. Shah's exclusive series, Discerning Doctrine on pray.com. If you're listening on pray.com right now and you have not followed Dr. Shah yet, we are approaching 5,000 followers. We really want to see 5,000 by the end of the week. The end of the week's already here, but I think you guys can make it happen. Also, very, very quickly, we're going live on May 23rd at 7 to 9 p.m. You can call us here as part of our 24-hour prayer vigil. You can call us at 252-582-5028. Pass that number on to your friends and family who need prayer. We'd love to pray with them on the air.

That's right. We love you guys. We'll see you Monday on Clear View Today. This episode of Clear View Today is brought to you by Mighty Muscadine. If you're looking for a natural way to boost your health, Mighty Muscadine has you covered. From 100% muscadine grape juice to premium healthy supplements, every single product is handcrafted to bring you the best of this extraordinary super fruit. It's backed by science, and best of all, every muscadine grape is grown right here in the heart of North Carolina.

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