Thursday, May 15 | The Cosmic Power that is Flesh

This episode of Clearview today is brought to you by Le Bleu Ultra Pure Water. When you drink Le Bleu, you're only getting two ingredients, hydrogen and oxygen. Le Bleu is the leading choice for hydration with a patented process that removes impurities and ensures the highest level of purity possible. Unlike other bottled waters, Le Bleu's ultra pure filtration system provides water that is free from contaminants and infused with only the essentials your body needs. So whether you're at home, on the go or working hard, Le Bleu Ultra Pure Water offers a refreshing, crisp taste with every sip. It's going to give you the hydration you need without the worry. So make the smart choice today and experience the difference of Le Bleu Ultra Pure Water. You can find out more and order online at Le Bleu. That's L-E-B-L-E-U.com and make sure when you check out, you tell them the Clearview Today show sent you.

You can use promo code T-O-D-A-Y at checkout to get 10% off your next order. It's going to save you money and it's going to support all of us here at the Clearview Today show. So stay hydrated, stay healthy and without further ado, let's start the show. You're listening to Clearview Today with Dr. Abbadan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis and welcome to the Clearview Today studio. We're glad you're here with us. We have a fantastic conversation planned for you guys today. We've been talking a lot about sin and death and the flesh all over these past couple of weeks. Going through our series on the book of Romans with our host for the day, Dr. Abbadan Shah, who's a PhD in New Testament texture craft.

Of course, yeah, you guys can handle them. From coast to toast. From coast to toast. Buckle up, fam. This ain't no facade.

You're tuning in now to Dr. Abbadan Shah. Welcome. Oh, okay.

The facade and the shawl. It's pretty good. It's a slant rhyme, but I think it works. Sure. Just give us a little slam poetry for you. Sure. Welcome to the studio. Thank you. Thank you. Good to be here. That was some beatnik style poetry.

Oh yeah. That's like Judy funny style. Like you, Judy, Judy. Well, our verse of the day today is coming from Philippians chapter two verses 14 and 15. Do everything without complaining or arguing so that you may be blameless and pure children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation in which you shine like stars in the universe. Christians don't really complain that much, do they Dr. Shah?

Oh, they don't, do they? Unfortunately, that's part of our nature. Right. That even though that nature is dead, as we're discussing in this series or through Romans about the sinful flesh, the old nature is dead.

The body is dead, but the spirit is still alive. That's right. Yeah. So dealing with that spirit, you require the Holy spirit to counter that old spirit. That's right. But sometimes that old spirit is just way too strong and it happens, man.

It happens. But I do have a question, something that might make that a little bit easier. Oh my goodness. You already knew what it was time for. It's time to pick up the, yeah, I know that would really help out a great deal. So here's what I want to ask you, Dr. Shah and Ryan for $1 million a peach, a peach peach. You have three months to prepare for this.

Okay. You have to take on Nick, who is, who is Dr. Shah's son. You have to take him on one V one Halo five million dollars. He's not going to practice, which the context for those of you guys listening is Nicholas was really good at Halo five, but I would assume you've not played Halo five.

You've not played. So what's the cost for, if I lose, that's my question is like, you lose your car, lose the car, lose your car. And three months of your life.

Like you, like you, you devote three months to, I mean, you don't have to practice, but you, you, you lose your car. I'll say to Nicholas, I win that million dollars. I will take him on. You'll take him on. So three months of prep.

Now keep in mind, I used to play video games back in the day, and this is like the late eighties and then early nineties and then a little bit into the two thousands. Do you take a, then I stopped. Do you take a three month sabbatical from pastoring and preaching or do you just keep going? No, just keep going. I just want to probably going to back away from some of my other responsibilities. I'll back away from them. I still do my preaching, still do the main things that I have to do, but I will spend a lot of time researching that game, finding the loopholes, getting the rhythm, the, the, the pattern. And once I do, once I unlock that key. Oh yeah. I'm on your PhD. Student is like calling, blowing your phone up. Dr. Shaw, we need to meet right now.

I'll meet with you for 10 minutes. And then you got to go to Halo five. He's got the headset on. He's playing online with people while I don't, I'm not confident enough in my ability. I don't know that I could, I play video games, right? I have, but the kind of video game that Halo is, I'm usually not great at that first person shooter type game.

I enjoy playing them, but I'm usually not skilled in that area. I would also take the money. I would, I would, I would take the risk.

I would, I would smoke him. I don't know. The car is a recent addition in my life. I don't know that I'm running to put it up on the line.

That car is brand new. Dr. I respect that. My friend, Dr. Shaw is the type he's like, I'm going to make it work. Like I'm you going to get a sermon. You're going to give it all.

I'll jump all in and call in some expert help, calling some friends, some favors and say, Hey, I need some training. It's like in those old, it's like in those old like cheesy movies where Nicole's like standing in the doorway, she's got the curlers in her hair. She's like, are you coming to bed? He's like, not right now. Five more minutes.

There's a training montage from somewhere. He picks up. He like cracks eggs in a glass for a video game. For some reason, I think we do, then I'll take that million dollars. Of course, pay off some of our bills and then probably try to do something for missions.

Maybe start some ministries, maybe help some people in, in, in ministry. So maybe it's worth taking that risk. I would say so if I can use that money for something good. Now, I'm not going to play the lottery. There are certain things I will not do, but if it's like play a video game, like I have to work on getting this thing, break the code and, and, and win the game.

Yeah, of course I'll do it. When I was younger, like, like my early, early 20, like probably 2021, I thought I was going to get into esports and like actually do gaming. I wanted to, I wanted to, then I went to one tournament in Raleigh and competed smoked in the first round.

I was like, this is not for me. Those guys are no joke. They're serious. It's definitely been like, when you think, when you're the best among your friend group and you feel like I could probably do this.

And then you go out, there's like, Oh, there's a whole nother tier that you just really, yeah. You don't even, that's all they do. That's all they do day and night, sleep just constant at one game. Like that's that game. They are, they're experts.

They're they're experts. Yeah. That was not the, that was not the life for me. God had other plans.

That's right. Speaking of God having plans for our life, Dr. Shell, we've opened up this conversational pathway. Like I said yesterday, Mass Effect style, right? You got all these different conversational topics from one. You want to talk about video games that I could guy could put on the line. Oh yeah.

I would do massive Mass Effect, three multiplayer, Ryan. And I remember when Ryan, when I was going through Mass Effect three, Ryan and I played Mass Effect three multiplayer for like a month. Yeah.

That was really fun. But we've opened up this conversational tree where you've got all these different topics branching off of this one root topic, which is the flesh. And I think before we started that, I think before we started this whole series on Romans, Dr. Shaw, people thought of the flesh as one thing. It's bad, right? The flesh is bad. The spirit is good.

It's the bad part of us. But we have been talking a lot these past couple of days about the true nature of the flesh. And it isn't that suddenly now we think the flesh is good, but it's a much more complex word when we give it credit for it.

Yes. And I explained in the past couple of shows how sarx, flesh, sarx is the Greek word for flesh, means different things based on the context. And just looking at the book of Romans, Paul's letter to the Romans, we find four distinct definitions of sarx. The first is simply human existence.

That's right. This is what it means to be a human, to have a human nature. And we looked at a primary passage, which is Romans chapter one, verse three and four, because that's a passage that maybe the average person may not know, but it's one that scholars have been debating and discussing for centuries. Romans one, three and four. Is it two stages or is it two natures? And if we get that right there, then when it comes to Romans chapter seven and eight, we get it right there as well. So if it's two stages that Jesus was, stage one would be, he's fully God, but then stage two, fully man, then when we come to Romans chapter seven and eight, then we get into this whole, is this two stages of Christianity or what's happening there? But if it's two natures, then Jesus fully God became fully man.

Then when we come to Romans chapter seven and eight, we can see the battle of the natures. How do we deal with this? What do we deal with the old? How do we deal with the old nature?

Is it the new nature that finds the old nature or is it the Holy spirit? So we explained that last show. So human nature is one meaning. Second meaning is the limited human existence. Socks can also mean that you are weak. Socks can also mean that you cannot keep the law.

Not because necessarily of sin, you just can't do it. You're just a human. Just a human. The third definition is sinful human existence.

This is one we probably most people recognize. Flesh. Oh, in my flesh, oh, in my flesh, man, I got in the flesh there. What we're saying is that myself has sinful passions, has anger issues, has lust issues, has greed and covetousness and flying off the handle, outburst of wrath. Those are part of my sinful flesh.

Would you say that third definition is the one that the vast majority of people mean when they talk about the flesh? I believe so. Gotcha.

I believe so. Uh, you find that of course in Romans, but then you also find it in first Corinthians chapter three, verse three. And we read this two shows ago for you are still carnal.

Really? The word is fleshly for where there are envy, strife and divisions among you. Are you not carnal and behaving like me or men? Are you not fleshly and behaving like me or men right means to be a mere man means to be fleshly and, and mere men are fleshly. That's right. That's what it means. Yeah. But then we come to the fourth meaning, which is being explored and has been sort of, uh, unpacked over the past, I would say 20 years.

So this is relatively new. Oh, absolutely. This is known in Roman studies, not studies of the Roman empire, but studies of the book of Romans as, uh, or in Pauline studies as the apocalyptic view.

Okay. Apocalyptic view. There is the, um, classical view of justification. Then there is a new perspective view. Then there is, uh, uh, the gift view, which is even newer than apocalyptic, but then there's the apocalyptic view, the participationist view. Uh, and then of course the gift view that I mentioned a few seconds ago, but apocalyptic view says that in Romans, especially, but also maybe in Galatians, sin and death and flesh are like superpowers, like physical cosmic powers that have invaded this world ever since the garden of Eden.

When someone has, so, so this idea of being recent, maybe in the past two decades, does that give them more credibility, less credibility, or does it, does that even factor in? So what I mean is, is someone discovering this or someone saying, Hey, I think Paul might be talking about this and everyone else is like, Oh, I never thought of that before. Or are they discovering something in the text that nobody caught on to previously? People have caught on to it throughout the history of Pauline studies. And I'm talking about centuries ago, I'm talking about the church fathers. At times they would mention that they would mention flesh as this invading army. They would mention sin as this invasive power, but they didn't stop in and create a new way to read Pauline letters. Like now we can see these powerful forces that have come into the world.

They haven't. And typically people have dismissed them and said, ah, that's just personification. It's just poetry.

It's just poetry personification. You're reading too much into it. But when then you see how you are not debtors to the flesh, debtors to the flesh. What does that mean to be a debtor to somebody?

What does that mean? I mean, you owe them. You're indebted to them. There's a price and you must pay it.

Right. So think about flesh being like a lender who comes and says, here are some of my goods. You're welcome to lease them from me. Would you like to lease envy today? Would you like to lease anger today? Would you like to lease self-gratification today?

What would you like to do? I'll give you these things, but then you have to pay me back. Yeah.

You have to pay me back. Wow. So is it that the idea was there?

I mean, it was there in the early church fathers and it just wasn't systematized up until I would say the past 10, 15, 20 years. Okay. Okay. So the idea was present, but then it's really been systematized as far as modern theologians putting it out there saying Paul really did mean this. Right.

Okay. One such scholar right now that comes to mind is Beverly Gaventa. She has written a comic, a commentary. That'd be great to have a real illustrated comic about. I'm thinking about like these three kind of monstrosities invading the earth with their forces like that.

That would lend itself well to the rise of the silver surfer, how Galactus was just like a giant cloud for some reason. That's kind of how I visualize sin and death and flesh. That's right.

That's right. And so she has written a commentary and she has been writing papers and it's not just her. There are several other scholars who have also written on this subject and maybe some point in time we can sit down and talk about it. I like the apocalyptic view, but I'm not like hundred percent sold out on it.

So it has, it has helped me understand Pauline letter, especially the book of Romans a little better. And when you say apocalyptic view, what you're meaning is that sin and flesh and death are cosmic powers. Right.

Okay. That's, that's one big part of the apocalyptic. But there's other parts of it too.

Right. Because apocalyptic implies something with the end times, not necessarily that that's all there is to it, but it implies that. So in the end, when you see all hell breaking loose in Revelation is really God declaring his judgment on the forces of sin, death and flesh. So, so does that give, and I know this, this may be jumping ahead or maybe just kind of crossing around to someone, but when Paul says, Oh death wears your sting, oh Hades, he's talking to these powers. He's addressing them as though they were people.

Absolutely. And the apocalyptic view would say, that's not just poet, poetic license. He's not just being, you know, poet, poetic or whatever. He's actually addressing these living creatures, these living powers.

These powers. And also keep in mind that this is, these verses are not something that Paul created. They're coming from the old Testament.

He's quoting from the old Testament. Right. Are these forces in the sense that they are sentient and possess a will and have like a plan or like something they're pursuing a goal? Or is it like a force like a wind? Like gravity is a force. Yeah. It's something like that.

I would say more like a gravity or whatever. Okay. But, but behind them or sort of on top of this axis of evil, sin, death, flesh is the enemy. So, okay. That makes a lot more sense. It's not that sin and flesh and death are living creatures with a will to act against us, but they are forces that are employed by the enemy.

I guess that makes, that makes more sense. Gravity is a good, is a good way to say, cause we wouldn't say that gravity is like poetic. It exists.

But it also doesn't have a will of its own. Like I'm going to pull you to the earth. It just is.

It's just going to do it. Yeah. So for years and years, we used to say the world of flesh and the devil. Well, where is that verse? The world of flesh and the devil.

There is no such verse. It is based on a sort of a deductive logic. Like since it's talking about worldly behavior and it also talks about fleshly desires and also talks about the enemy. Oh, those are the three forces that are working on us.

So we've been talking about forces for a while. The world, the flesh and the devil. What is the world? What is the flesh? We know the devil.

What are those two things? So there's nothing new that we're doing here. So somebody is like, I don't know about all this apocalyptic view.

Well, if you ever ask a person, what is a Christian up against? Oh, the world, the flesh and the devil. What does that mean? What is the world?

Like the mall? The world like the politicians, the world as in the Hollywood actors. Who is the world?

What does that mean? That's a good point. And that's a good question. I don't know.

See, I had never heard that phrase, the world, the flesh and the devil before. Yeah. But that's something that for a long time. Yeah. Wow.

Yeah. And they're quoting, actually, I think it is, I want to say John, maybe first John, I may be wrong, but somebody can maybe find it for us. All you got to do is go on Google and drop world and the flesh and the devil. It'll give you a verse. And based on a certain interpretation of that verse or sort of like distilling the various phrases of that verse, you get the world, the flesh and the devil.

You get these three categories. So that's where it's coming from. It doesn't look like it's an actual verse, but it looks like it could be coming from somewhere like in first John two, 15 and 17, although I don't think so. So first John two, 15 and 17 says, do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the father is not in them for everything in the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life. So there's no lust. There's no world, flesh or devil in there. That was just what Google kind of gave me to. There's also links to James three, 15.

It says this wisdom does not descend from above, but it's earthly, sensual and demonic. So that might be more like it. And then if you think about the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life, what are these? Yeah, true. So they are forces.

Yeah. They're not just, they're not just ideas. They're forces that actually act out in our lives.

Lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes and the pride of life. So the thought that there are forces that are acting against us is nothing new. It's just that scholars or Pauline scholars in recent years have really shown them to this to be true by exegeting scripture rather than just saying, oh yeah, if you read that verse and you distill it down, that's what it means. So if we, so this fourth definition of the flesh, the flesh as a cosmic power, would you say that it's just anything that is anti-spirit, anti holy spirit?

So let's go to Galatians chapter five and verse 19 because here you get a list of the works of the flesh. Okay. Okay. Okay. You want to read for us?

Sure. So starting in verse 19, it says, now the works of the flesh are evident, which are adultery, fornication, uncleanliness, lewdness, uncleanness, I'm sorry, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like, of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. So if you think about the list that Paul gives us in Galatians 5 19 and through 21, these are the wares or the items in the catalog the flesh carries around. These are his goods. These are his goods. He says, would you like to rent some of these things? Oh yeah, I'll take adultery.

How long would you like to have it and how much? No, I'm not going to do hardcore adultery. I'm not going to go find a hotel room to be with somebody. I'm not going to do anything like that much, but I can be flirtatious.

Okay, go for it. Now you go out there and you're flirtatious with somebody and you think it's not hurting anybody. It's just me, just I'm just goofing off. Man, I'm not happy at home. I'm not happy at home. Things are not going on well. So what do you want me to do? You know, I'm just a man. So we'll justify ourselves and that's where sin will give us plenty of reasons why the goods of the flesh are okay to use. You're starting to see these forces working together now.

They work together. Yes. Wow. So sin is that power that says, yes, you're justified in that.

And here are some reasons why you can use them. And if you want to, while you're at it, also take fornication and uncleanness if you like. There's a really lewd and crude movie out there.

Why don't you watch that as well? You justify it. So you go, you know what? On second thoughts, I will take that, that and that flesh. Flesh is okay, no problem. And then flesh and sin sort of look at death and go, do your work.

Collect your due. Because death comes in, not necessarily like people will physically die, but now the relationship with your wife or your husband is going to suffer. Yeah. There's decay there. There's spiritual decay. Relationship with your children is going to suffer. Relationship with your church family is going to suffer.

There'll be a death-like existence that will come in. Wow. That's kind of chilling to think about those forces working together and how insidious it is.

I mean, none of us would go out and say, yeah, sign me up for adultery. But that flirtatious nature, that kind of, you know, wandering eyes. I mean that, that's a very real danger. Yeah. And it's more than just a slippery slope as well because it's a slippery slope is like, oh, I just, I happened to fall.

Like I just put my foot in the wrong place and then I just happened to fall. But these are forces working against you. Yeah.

These are tools that the enemy is using to actively harass you and make you go down that path. Right. So, I mean, we can, we can look at, we looked at adultery and now there's also covetousness. We can, we can talk about that for a second because that is actually given to us in Romans chapter seven, verse seven. So I kind of jumped ahead and talked about adultery as one of the line items or not line items, really the, a product in flesh's catalog.

But if you go to Romans chapter seven, verse seven, here you have Paul explaining how the law works and how law is not sin, but it can be used by sin. Very interesting. Yeah.

Yeah. So let's read it. Romans chapter seven, verse seven.

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not. On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. So law is actually good.

It helps identify and explore and expose sin. Right. That's what law does. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, you shall not covet.

Good point. But sin taking opportunity by the commandment. So sin sometimes will take the law, which is actually good, given by God to expose sin. Sin will actually use the law to produce, produced in me, all manner of evil desire. The law showing you what covetousness did not make you covet. Sin makes you covet.

Right. It actually produces all manner of evil desire. It means it doesn't just say, okay, so now, you know, covetousness, why don't you covet? No, it produces all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law, sin was dead. I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. So sin was already passively choking the life out of me. But when the law exposed sin, sin now, instead of just passively choking the life out of me like a massive python around my neck, now it actively begins to devour me. Wow.

Okay. Sin becomes active instead of just passive. Both ways, he's bringing death.

One slowly, but now one more aggressively. Because he doesn't want to be, sin does not want to be exposed. It's not just exposure. It wants to destroy you. Because you're trying to fight it. Right. Okay. Okay.

So this is, this is sort of the lost person scenario right here. Okay. Okay.

That helps. Because I was thinking about a Christian. I thought Paul was talking about a Christian, but he's talking about the Christian. There's a switch that happens starting in verse 13.

Okay. And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. So knowing what not to do actually opens the door wide for all the things I can do and all the ways I can compromise and find shortcuts and loopholes to do more bad stuff. For sin, verse 11, this is Romans chapter seven, verse 11, for sin taking occasion by the commandment deceived me and by it killed me. That's not the story of a Christian.

That's the story of a lost person. Yes. Good point. So we die and we think the law is killing us. No, the sin taking opportunity by the law is killing us.

Therefore the law is holy and the commandment holy and just and good. And then he goes on to say, we don't have time to go through all of this. Maybe we can do it another show. Sure.

We can. This is Romans 7, 13. Has then what is good become death to me?

Certainly not. But sin that it might appear sin was producing death in me through what is good so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful for we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin, sold under sin, which means this is a story of a lost person. And then there's a change that begins. But what I am doing, I do not understand what I will to do that I do not practice what I hate that I do. Oh, I hate a lost person cannot hate sin. Sin. So now the story has shifted from a lost person to a saved person. Gotcha. This is this, I think from verse 13 onwards, it starts to get a lot more dense and the situation gets a lot more complex.

It shifts from an unbeliever to a believer scenario. And I really want to go through this. Maybe we can do this on tomorrow's show. Sure.

I love it. That'd be great. Guys, make sure you join us tomorrow. Same time, same station. We're going to be diving into another great topic here on the Clear V Today show. Thanks again to our sponsors for making today's episode possible. And don't forget that you can support us on iTunes. If you want to subscribe to the show and you can always support us financially at ClearVTodayShow.com.

John, what are you going to leave our listeners with today? I want to let you know that we are going live on May 23rd from 7 to 9 PM. We'll be live on Facebook, YouTube, ClearVBC.org. That's our church website. Going to try to see about going live on pray.com. I don't know if they have live streaming capabilities, but we're talking to them right now, but we're going live as part of our 24 hour prayer vigil. Make sure that you're there.

You can call us 252-582-5028. We would love to pray with you or someone in your life on the air. Also all of Dr. Shah's exclusive series, including Discerning Doctrine and a new one coming up very soon called The Lighthouse is going to be exclusive on pray.com.

Make sure you follow Dr. Abaddon Shah on pray.com, especially if you're listening to us on pray right now. That's right. We love you guys. We'll see you tomorrow on ClearV Today. This episode of ClearVue today is brought to you by Mighty Muscadine. If you're looking for a natural way to boost your health, Mighty Muscadine has you covered. From 100% Muscadine grape juice to premium healthy supplements, every single product is handcrafted to bring you the best of this extraordinary super fruit. It's backed by science and best of all, every Muscadine grape is grown right here in the heart of North Carolina.

But no matter where you are, Mighty Muscadine is your go-to for strength, health, and vitality. You can visit MightyMuscadine.com today and use promo code TODAY at checkout to get 10% off your next order. And every single time you use that promo code, you're helping us here at the ClearVue Today show continue to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ. So thanks for your support. Thank you to Mighty Muscadine for sponsoring today's show. Now let's get started.