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It's oliveandjune.com slash freshmani25 for 25% off everything. Good morning. I'm Jane Pauley, and this is Sunday Morning. Every year, dozens of American schools and universities experience the tragedy and trauma of gun violence. Studies of schoolchildren gunned down in places like Parkland, Florida, Uvalda, Texas, and Newtown, Connecticut are seemingly so common as to almost invite indifference. But as Steve Hartman will show us, for parents of the victims, the pain is all too real, a terrible moment frozen in time. We're about to enter a sacred space. There's one of these in every house where a child murdered in a school shooting used to live. The bedroom, often left as is, frozen in time because it's just too hard to let go. When that time comes that that room is not there, does she go away? Share stories ahead on Sunday Morning.
She's an Academy Award winner, a newly minted member of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and a pop culture icon. Now, Share is also an author and talking with our Anthony Mason. What did you want to say with this book? In the beginning, I didn't want to say much. Share's new memoir focuses on her years with Sonny, but she hesitated in writing it. At some point, I just thought, Share, do it or give the money back, and you've got to do it.
Share, ahead on Sunday Morning. For more than 20 years now, former President Bill Clinton has been out of office and living the life of a private citizen, a period he reflects on this morning with Tracy Smith. How's it been being in Harlem? I love it.
Hey, man. In the 23 years since he started working here, former President Bill Clinton has seen a lot of dreams come true, but not all. Do you think part of the issue is that America is just not ready for a female president?
Maybe. President Bill Clinton on power, legacy, and where to grab a bite in Harlem later on Sunday morning. Ten million people worldwide are living with the stiffness, shaking, and deteriorating motor skills of Parkinson's disease.
But as Leslie Stoll will show us, some have discovered an unlikely way to defy both Parkinson's and gravity. Seth Doan is in the arena with the star of the new movie, Gladiator II, Irish heartthrob Paul Meskal. Plus, columnist Peggy Noonan looking back on her storied career with Robert Costa. Automnal musings with Josh Seftel and his mom. And more this Sunday morning for November 17th, 2024.
We'll be back in a moment. Did you know that parents rank financial literacy as the number one most difficult life skill to teach? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app for families. With Greenlight, you can send money to kids instantly, set up chores, automate allowance, and keep an eye on your kids' spending with real-time notifications.
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For original gifts that say, I get you, Etsy has it. Steve Hartman starts us off this morning with something very different and deeply troubling. An intimate look at the lives of school shooting victims as reflected in their rooms, rooms frozen in time. I never wanted to be this kind of reporter, knocking on the door of someone who lost a child in a school shooting.
And yet here I stand, knocking nonetheless. I found myself here and here, standing on the threshold of grief across the country after years of pent up frustration. By 2018, America's school shooting epidemic had taken a toll on me. There were so many, the news coverage felt like a treadmill, pray, mourn, repeat, more guns, less guns, shrug.
It seemed to me the country had grown numb, lost its empathy for the victims and the families. And I wanted to do something. For help, I reached out to Lou Bope. Lou is one of the best still photographers in the country, but he had never faced a challenge quite like this.
I'm trying to take a portrait of a person who's not there. That was the ask. And that's what led us to places like Nashville, Tennessee. Hey, thanks for coming. This is Lou. Hi.
Hey Lou. Chad. About a year and a half ago, Chad and Jada Scruggs lost their daughter Hallie in the Covenant school shooting.
And you boys cannot use that. She was nine years old, the youngest of four and their only daughter. She fractured her front tooth on the playground steps.
Hallie had more stitches than any of her brothers, by the way, too. It was just a lot of fun having a daughter. We had a chance to have her for nine and a half years, and that was far better than not having her at all.
But at the same time, their goodbye isn't quite complete. This is her room. They're still living with her bedroom. Over the past six years, eight different families from five different shootings invited us into these sacred spaces, allowing Americans to see for the first time what it's like to live with an empty child's bedroom. Yeah. One of the places we traveled was Uvalde, Texas.
Wow, it's breathtaking as it is. In 2022, a gunman murdered 19 children at Robb Elementary, including nine-year-old Jackie Cazares. Jackie lived here with her father, Javier, and mother, Gloria. Like here, they were going on a father-daughter dance. Are you so excited? Who are you going to marry?
Wait, is it Dada? They say people are always telling them, I can't imagine what you're going through. But they say we need to imagine, and that's why they invited us in.
It just makes everything more real for the public, for the world. Her room completely just speaks of who she was. In Jackie's room, we saw the chocolate she saved for a day that never came, evidence of the dream vacation she never got to take, and the pajamas she never wore again. It struck us how many of the rooms remained virtually untouched, even years after the shooting.
Frank and Nancy Blackwell lost their 14-year-old son Dominic in the Saugus High School tragedy near Los Angeles. That was 2019, but inside his room, it's like yesterday. We've just decided to keep everything as it was from when he last went to school that day. He didn't prepare his room to be photographed. He didn't put away his stuffed animals because he was worried about who might see it. He woke up, he got dressed, and he left to go to school.
And he thought he was coming back, and we all expected him to come back. So many rooms, waiting for a child that will never return. Charlotte Bacon was murdered in Newtown, Connecticut, six weeks after Halloween.
This was the last library book she checked out, now 12 years overdue. Luke Hoyer was killed in Parkland, Florida, on Valentine's Day, his bed, just as he left it. Alyssa Elhadeff, also Parkland, the whirlwind that was her room, now still.
And Carmen Shentrup, yet another Parkland victim. The watch she got for her 16th birthday still ticks, but the motivational sayings that filled her room resonate no more. The decision to either keep a room like this as it was, or pack it up and repurpose, tortures many parents.
Brian and Cindy Muehlberger lost their fifth child, Brian and Cindy Muehlberger lost their 15-year-old daughter, Gracie, in the Saugus shooting. We have the conversation all the time, what do we do with Gracie's room? Because I feel like when I do go in there that I feel her presence. And so when that time comes that that room is not there, does she go away?
I didn't realize what a, almost what an albatross the rooms are for some families. Like you embrace it, but it's also hanging over your neck. Yeah, that's the hardest part.
I can't put anything away, really. Yeah, I will just say I have a pretty confusing relationship with her room now. It's extremely painful, but there's a lot of moments where you want to be sad, because the sadness is a part of connecting with her.
Likewise, Chad says smiles connect too. She wanted a kitty cat hoodie. Could not talk her out of it. And she wore that a lot?
She did. All the time. All the time, the rooms really are a rainbow of emotion all at once. Tender as a lullaby and shocking as a crime scene. Clues, gathering dust, leading us past all the places these kids had been up until that very moment when everything stopped. So suddenly, there wasn't even time to close the lid on the toothpaste tube.
In the end, we took more than 10,000 photographs. And it is the parents' hope that at least one of these pictures will stick with you. That you will forever carry a piece of their pain.
And use that heartache to help stem the tide of all these empty rooms. My dad works in B2B marketing. He came by my school for Career Day and said he was a big ROAS man. Then he told everyone how much he loved calculating his return on ad spend.
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Hire high quality certified pros at Angie.com. After spending more than two decades as a private citizen, former President Bill Clinton has plenty to say about the past, present, and future of our country. He's sharing those thoughts with Tracy Smith. Welcome back to Harlem, Mr. President. Thanks, man. They don't play hail to the chief when President Bill Clinton shows up anymore. Hey, guys.
But there's an equally welcome sound he still hears all the time. Give my love to Hillary, too. Thank you. How's it been being in Harlem? I love it, man. Hey, man. Here in Harlem, a walk through the streets with Bill Clinton feels a lot like a victory lap.
Hey, man. The president set up shop here shortly after he left office. We've got to really move now. Back then, he was only 54, newly unemployed, but determined to use his influence, contacts, and know-how to make a difference as a private citizen. He even said so in his final address to the nation. In the years ahead, I will never hold a position higher or a covenant more sacred than that of President of the United States.
But there is no title I will wear more proudly than that of citizen. In the 24 years since he made that speech, citizen Clinton has accomplished enough to fill several lifetimes and the pages of a new book. What are you most proud of that you've done in your time out of the White House? I think the thing I'm most proud of is that I proved that you can make a big difference as a private citizen.
By any measure, he's done that. Through his Clinton Foundation and the Clinton Global Initiative, which partners business leaders with nonprofits, he's helped fund projects worldwide. To name a few, a program to help combat HIV and AIDS in South Africa, a massive clean water project in Rwanda, and closer to home, his foundation helped with everything from the energy-saving retrofit of the Empire State Building in New York to fighting drug overdoses in the heartland, to an upgrade of streetlights in Los Angeles. They also helped fund construction jobs to rebuild crumbling infrastructure. We raised $16 billion from union pension funds to put people to work.
It was the biggest in the country at the time. That's what I'm proud of because I think people are happy when they do things that actually make things better. You clearly are. I am.
Of course, this still makes him happy, too. The president hit the road for the Harris-Waltz ticket in the final weeks of the campaign and says he was disappointed but not entirely surprised by the result. Do you think part of the issue is that America is just not ready for a female president?
Maybe. I think in some ways we've moved to the right, as a reaction to all the turmoil. I think if Hillary had been nominated in 2008, she would have walked down just like Obama did. Has the country changed? Well, I think all these cultural battles we're fighting make it harder in some ways for a woman to win. So you think it has more to do with party than gender?
No. Although I think it would probably be easier for a conservative Republican woman to win. Than a Democrat woman. Because, I mean, that's what Maggie Thatcher did. But I still think we'll have a female president pretty soon. You do? I do. How soon? Within your lifetime? Oh, yeah.
Well, I think it would probably be easier for a conservative Republican woman to win. I don't know how long I'm going to live. You're asking an old man that question. I hope I'm around for the next time, but now it's President Trump's turn in the barrel.
It depends on what he does and how it plays. Thank you very much. We spoke this past week as the president-elect was in the process of naming his new cabinet, shaking up Washington D.C. and beyond. Are the guardrails off?
Well, there's no obvious guardrail. The Senate's shown some indigestion about some of these suggested appointments. We'll see what happens there. And, you know, somewhere along the way he'll have to think about whether at this stature of his life he still thinks the most important thing is to have unquestionable domination. Because that's not what a democracy is about. So you're saying President Trump might have a change of heart?
He might. I was raised in the Baptist church. I believe in deathbed conversions. You know, I think you can't give it up. But I think the rest of us just have to be diligent.
Watch the signs and be willing to stand up for what we think is right, even if they take a piece out of our hide. In his book, the president writes candidly about his health issues, including his battle with weight. But he couldn't resist stopping into the famed soul food restaurant Sylvia's, if only for a cup of coffee. If you were eating here, what would you get?
In the middle of the afternoon, I would get some piece of pie. I know you talk about this in your book. You have to watch your diet a little bit now? A lot. It's unbelievable how low your weight is.
It's unbelievable how low your metabolism is. If he's candid about his health, he's just as open about past controversies. Clinton writes about Monica Lewinsky, applauding her recent work on bullying. Why did you make a point of doing that? Because I thought I needed to say something about it. And I wanted to be as helpful as I could to let her turn the page.
And I think she should be given a chance to build a life that is about her and the future. And not, you know, being whiplashed into an old story. So great to see you. My goodness. No worries. I'm doing well. You did my heart so well to see you. I know. Yeah, yeah. How are you doing? Okay. Great to meet you.
So while he's mindful of the past, Bill Clinton keeps moving forward, making connections big and small, still trying and often succeeding in his bid to change the world. I don't mind it when people jump on me. I just talk to them and I don't turn them all. You don't have to turn everybody.
Just got to get enough. We just all need to loosen up and get back in the game. And I also think, just one other thing, and I say this in the book many times, we all keep score.
You've been doing this a long time. You're keeping score in your mind about this interview compared to 15 others you've done. And I think the way I keep score is are people better off when you quit than when you started? Do children have a broader future? And are we coming together instead of being torn apart? So for me, it's enough if I can answer yes to those three things.
I know there are no permanent victories or defeats in politics. And I have no interest in being an armchair quarterback except to help my team perform better. And I think they have enormous talent. So I wish them all well and I'll try to help. But meanwhile, I'm going to suit up and do what I'm doing.
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Go to Bluehost.com now to get started. You do have a name. My name is Gladiator. It's been 24 years since the movie Gladiator, starring Russell Crowe, dominated both at the box office and during awards season. Gladiator 2 comes to theaters this week. It's star, Paul Meskell, is talking with our Seth Doan. There's this weird sensation about landing into the city that just, I don't know, it just makes me feel calm.
Irish actor Paul Meskell was not going to get much of that calm on this stop, the Dublin premiere of Gladiator 2. He was here to promote the highly anticipated film we'd met earlier in the day at Trinity College, where not so long ago he'd studied acting. There's a little bit of really enjoying it, but part of it also hanging on for dear life. What do you mean by that?
Just the size is something that I haven't experienced before. I also just haven't led a huge amount of films. Now he's leading this huge film. In Gladiator 2, he plays Lucius, who learns, along with the audience, of his connection to Russell Crowe's character from the original blockbuster. Are you not entertained?
Are you not entertained? Nearly 25 years later, director Ridley Scott is back for the sequel, out this week. This is an epic film to watch. What is it like to be in, to be in the middle of?
I would say equally epic. Strike the mother! Strike the mother! Last night, time for a dance. The 28-year-old has already been nominated for an Oscar, playing a single dad in Afterson. I told you, I love to dance.
Are you going to start kissing me again? And an Emmy for his role in Normal People. Aside from the critical acclaim, it turned him into a Gen Z heartthrob practically overnight.
Ridley Scott says he was so impressed with Mezcal that he cast the young actor after just a 30-minute Zoom call. Got a phone call and they were like, you're going to be in Gladiator 2. And you're thinking what? That's kind of massively life-altering news to receive. Yeah, I think so.
Yeah, of course it is. I think there's something that comes with the legacy of Ridley Scott, this film. The first Gladiator won five Academy Awards.
In this incarnation from Paramount Pictures, a division of CBS's parent company, Mezcal stars alongside Denzel Washington. Did you hear that crowd? You have something. I knew it from the start. Did you now?
Yes. As an actor, are you taking mental notes when you work with someone like Washington? When you go back to bed in the evening, you're like, how is he doing this? How is he doing that?
Give me an example. Every scene I did with him was never how I expected it to go, which is the dream. It was very thrilling to be five feet in front of his face watching him do that. Mezcal has star power of his own. Yeah, we have now a sea of people following us. He's proving to be a singular actor, at least until a look-alike contest. We had to show the real Mezcal.
I mean, I feel like it's easy to do a parody of me. I mean, like, just take a look at the photos, and I think it's pretty. The shorts? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, those shorts are the uniform of his other love, Gaelic football.
This athlete bulked up, putting on 18 pounds of muscle. The role is so different. You're often playing these kind of softer, almost tormented, shy characters. It's a major transition for you.
Yeah, it is. I think going back to the sport that I played before, there was definitely a desire to make a more physically informed choice with a character, and Lucius represented it, like, the perfect opportunity for that to happen. Normal People, his big break, was shot at his alma mater. In it, Mezcal portrays the sharp, nuanced emotions of a student.
Angst, torment, desire. I think it exposed an audience to me. That job essentially allowed me to prove to people that I can act. Couldn't I say it was you that was seducing me? I was trying to. It's not been that long since you made that sausage commercial. Yeah, yeah.
Thanks for bringing that up. Always wanted to do a bit of travel myself. That's it.
I'm going to travel. It's incredible, really. Yeah, no. 2018 or something. No, that covered my rent for the year. I was absolutely delighted by it. He'd started acting at 16, and a production of Phantom of the Opera changed his trajectory. I think I'm still chasing that feeling again. From high school? Yeah, nothing has ever really come close to that feeling. Your high school Phantom of the Opera production versus Gladiator 2. It sounds absolutely bizarre. I think because it felt physically dangerous in my body to be exposed to an audience of people who knew me as somebody who played sports.
The adrenaline was, like, extraordinary. Childhood, he says, was pretty standard. My mum's a policeman and my dad's a teacher.
Both retired now. But he credits that upbringing with helping him navigate today's pressures. This isn't you for me. Really? This, Paris. But you're used to attention at this point.
Within reason. How's it going? On campus, at times, this star was as struck as the students. Are you all in college here? Yeah. Mezcal is hoping to maintain some distance, some mystery as an actor. No, but I don't want you to see me like that in there. To be able to convincingly inhabit such varied roles.
Seriously? You don't want an audience to know you innately. What do you think your relationship is with fame? Ever-changing, I think. Perhaps that's because it's all changing so quickly for him. Instead of dispersing during our interview inside, the crowd, we soon discovered, had multiplied. And we got to witness Paul Mezcal I don't know what to say other than hello. in a role for which there is no rehearsal. Thanks for all coming out. This is f***ing bananas.
And no script. I have to go finish, finish an interview and... We have to get to class. You have to go to class, yeah. You should all go back to school.
All right, see you later. After Alzheimer's, Parkinson's is the second most common neurodegenerative disorder in the world, afflicting some 10 million people. There is no cure. But as our 60 Minutes colleague Leslie Stoll discovered, some hearty patients are mounting an uphill battle to diminish its symptoms. We were amazed at what we were seeing on a sweltering summer's day, when these people with Parkinson's disease began rock climbing on the Carter Rock Cliffs of Maryland. Yes, rock climbing.
If you look at these cliffs, you can't imagine anyone could climb them. So you're not babying them. No.
At all. No, I definitely give tough love. It's all part of their therapy, says Molly Kupka. She's the no-nonsense instructor and cheerleader for this community of courageous climbers. There's a lot of balance involved. Mobility involves strength, cardio, and then there's the cognitive part where you have to look at the hold and figure out how to get your body to move to get to that hold. Nice right hand there, John. Find any, yes, that looks like a good foot.
She started this program called UpEnding Parkinson's as a non-profit 12 years ago. How often do they fall? Because falling is definitely part of climbing. You're always on the rope. There we go. You fall, but you don't fall far. You want to say if you're not falling, you're not trying hard enough. Oh really?
Yeah. They never really fall because they wear a harness that provides a layer of safety. There's no cure for Parkinson's, which usually affects mobility, coordination, balance, even speech. I'm a 59-year-old retired cardiac anesthesiologist. About 12 years ago, I retired. Because of Parkinson's? Because of Parkinson's. John Lesson was diagnosed in 2003.
He was once an all-around athlete. There you go. Good job, Dad. Very good. His daughter, Brittany, watched his steady decline until he discovered climbing walls as high as 60 feet.
My dad has a hard time walking across the room, but he can make it to the top of this giant wall. There you go. Come on, John. Keep those fingers on. There's a lot that he's had to give up because of his disease, but this is something that he found through it, which is really cool. Nice work. Woo! Good work, Dad. I get to the top and I feel like I've conquered something. And I feel like the wall can't beat me. I can beat the wall. Good job. Yeah, you answered that.
Full disclosure, this story is very personal to me. Are we ready? My late husband, Aaron Latham, had Parkinson's and boxed as a way to fight the symptoms, as he explained on Sunday morning in 2015. So what does boxing do for you?
Boxing is just the opposite of Parkinson's. Everything is designed instead of the strength you have, everything is designed to pump you up. He talked about how it makes you feel small and when you can accomplish something like this, you feel big. Right, it makes you feel very small.
You make small movements, you're hunched over. This makes you feel like you can accomplish the world. It was Lesson who first had that big idea to use rock climbing as a therapy for Parkinson's. I wanted to do a big movement exercise and I found Molly at this gym. Lesson proposed the idea to Molly Kupka, who runs the Sport Rock Climbing Center in Alexandria, Virginia.
She thought it was worth a try. One of the symptoms with Parkinson's is that you lose the ability to plan ahead and that is so this sport. I mean, you have to plan where you're going to put your foot next or your hand next. I wish I could go into the brain and see what's happening while people climb. When I don't climb for some periods of time, I get worse. Some people with Parkinson's, like Vivek Puri, get dyskinesia, involuntary jerking motions. Puri says he's usually unaware of his.
He runs a home building company in the D.C. area and was only 38 when he found out he had Parkinson's. So what can't you do that you used to be able to do? That I used to be able to do? Type.
Type? Yes. Oh, dexterity. Yes, exactly. Yes, exactly. Fine motor skills have kind of really suffered dramatically. But once he gets on the wall... You called yourself Spider-Man.
Yeah. I think some people say I climb like a monkey or I get my finger strength moving, which is my fine motor skills. Maybe not back, but kind of keeps that in motion. I was watching Vivek and his leg was kind of tremoring and yet he could put it where he wanted to. And that hand would go and confidently grab and have the strength to hold on when normally they were shaking. There's no evidence climbing slows the progress of Parkinson's, but Kupka joined forces with Marymount University last year to study patients climbing for the first time.
Ready, set, go. We have people literally walking and carrying weights, you know, walking and looking, so multitasking. The study found that in so many words, if you climb, you may walk better. That was Mark DeMolder in those videos, a musician and former director of the National Geospatial Program.
He doesn't need a study to prove what climbing does for him. Keep looking for feet like that. Yeah, Mark. Good work. It allows me to say, all right, take that Parkinson's. I'm doing this. It just makes me feel stronger and I don't know. You're fighting it. I'm fighting it. I'm doing something about it.
You're punching it in the face. Yeah. Good job.
That was awesome. Many of the climbers have become friends who climb together several times a week. And they become a support group, Parkinson's pals who encourage each other. And I reach the top. I can turn around and look and wave and see my wife and my friends. And that's the reward.
It's really wonderful. And everybody's clapping. Yeah.
Saying, good job, Mark. There's no real understanding of how these people can do this. But you can certainly understand why. It takes so many things that a lot of people with Parkinson's you would think could not do. That you can zip up that wall is something to behold. Thank you.
I mean, it's something that... You get emotional. It's nice to be good at something. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. No, that's her boyfriend's brother.
Oh, the brother. Do you think you could be a commentator? Not a football. Why? I don't always know exactly where that ball is. Don't you think you'd have something to say anyway?
I always have something to say. Did you know that November 12th was Odd Sox Day? No. November 15th was National Clean Out Your Fridge Day. Oh, don't even remind me. Where did you find all these things?
I don't know. There's all these holidays. You know, November 29th is Black Friday. It's also Buy Nothing Day.
Well, I like to buy things, especially if they're on sale. December 3rd is Let's Hug Day. Oh, I like that. Do you think you'll celebrate?
I would if I had somebody to hug. Have you been watching The Golden Bachelorette? Oh, I love it. Will you marry me?
Of course I'll marry you. Why do you think you like it so much? I can kind of, you know, relate to some of it, having been in that situation. Being a winner. I know a lot of people make fun of it and stuff, but they're not old. Would you ever want to be The Golden Bachelorette? No, no, no, no, no.
Not too old. Maybe they could have The Golden Bachelorette Senior Edition. That would be good. What do you think it would be like?
I guess there'd be a lot of canes and wheelchairs. Are you looking forward to Thanksgiving? Oh, yes, very much. I'm going to be with my whole family. And what are we going to do?
Eat a lot. Where does Thanksgiving rank for you amongst all the holidays? Probably number one. I just think it's a real family-oriented day. Everybody coming together and being together. What do you think of the Thanksgiving Day Parade? Oh, I've always liked it. Would you like to perform in the parade?
Not if it's cold. What would you do? I'd probably want to be all dressed up, have music, and maybe some people dancing. Just have fun. Well, I'll see you really soon. Maybe we can celebrate Let's Hug Day during Thanksgiving.
Oh, that's a good idea. Love you. Love you.
Bye bye. That's Sonny Bono and a teenager known as Cher, singing the song that made them music legends. All these years later, Cher is talking about those heady days and more with Anthony Mason.
It took too long for Cher to get into the rock and roll hall of fame. I thought, what do I have to do? I've had a number one record in all these decades. Yeah. You know, I had a song that changed music forever. And so what is it that I've got to do? This year, she finally made it.
All right. So it was easier getting divorced from two men than it was to get into the rock and roll hall of fame. You know, it also took forever for Cher to write her story.
And they just kept saying Cher, Cher, Cher. Where's this book? Right. This week, it finally comes out. My God, this is genius. I love this book. Okay, I'm done. What did you want to say with this book? In the beginning, I didn't want to say much. And then at some point, I just thought Cher do it or give the money back.
Cher the memoir part one centers on her years with Sonny and her itinerant childhood with a mother who married at least seven times. And one time we were driving in the car, and she said, Cher, I don't know how we're going to pay the rent. What do you think? And I was like, okay, how is this going to work?
How are we going to do this? Well, you say that you basically had to be a grown up. Yeah, from the beginning. Yeah. In 1962, Cherilyn Sarkisian met Sonny Bono in a coffee shop. He's wearing a mohair suit. Yes. And a mustard color shirt.
Yes, with a white collar. And what did you think? I thought it was like when Tony met Maria.
Everybody disappeared. And it was just the two of us. You say it wasn't love at first sight. It wasn't love at first sight. It was something.
Yeah. I never felt it before. Sonny was 27.
Cher was 16. It wasn't passionate. I just loved him. What did you love about him?
I don't know. He was different than anyone else, and he made me laugh. And we had a dream. It came true.
By the mid 60s, they had five songs in the top 50 at the same time. Because you got me and baby, baby, baby, baby. I got you. Baby. I got you, baby. I got you, baby. In the 70s, on the Sonny and Cher comedy hour, they'd become America's favorite couple. She was a B-A-M-P. Bam. With their banter.
Does this mean what I think it means? Yes, sweetheart. I'm knitting us a baby.
Their songs. And that Bob Mackie wardrobe. And then when they started to realize that people were tuning in because of what I was wearing, then they just gave us all the money we needed. Must have been great. So much fun. I can't wait to get my man dinner.
Where would you like to start? But Sonny began to change. He just started not to care. Not to care about what?
About me. He didn't like her going out or even talking with their band. But one member had his eye on her. A guitarist in the band. Yes. Bill.
Yes. One night, she met up with him. We walked back to this place where the guys used to get high before the show. And then he kissed me and was like, oh my God. Somehow word got back to Sonny. I don't know if I can actually say what happened because it's so personal and it's so, it's embarrassing.
Sonny looks at you in your room and says, what do you want to do? That's the part I'm not going to say. You can't say it. No. But it's in the book.
Cher said to Sonny, I want to sleep with Bill. There was part of you that knew that if you said that. It would be the end. Yeah. I thought if I do this, it's over.
He's not going to be able to come back. We're not going to be able to be Sonny and Cher. I just want to blow it up. Yeah. But I didn't know I wanted to blow it up until I was blowing it up. Yes, millions of viewers are talking about Sonny and Cher, the game that they play on our hit show here every week. They offered her anything to keep up appearances. Because everybody was afraid I was going to blow up the show. They just said, what do you want? And I said, well, I want my own place in Malibu and I want $5,000 a month. Hello?
And, um, I want freedom. But Sonny and Cher kept up the facade for two more years until Cher's new boyfriend, record executive David Geffen, got a copy of her contract. Sonny owned 95% of the company and his lawyer owned five.
And it was called Cher Enterprises, but I own nothing. And we'd worked together for almost 12 years. You confronted him about it.
Yeah, I did. And I said, when was the moment that you thought this would be a good idea? And he said, I always knew you'd leave me. And I said, that's not a reason, you know? And I said, son, how could you do it? I, I was there by your side, working all those nights, all those days, through good, through bad. He didn't have an answer and we were still friends after that.
Even after Cher married Greg Allman and was pregnant with their son, she rejoined Sonny for a revival of their show. Can you explain why that is, that up on stage, all the other stuff seemed to go away? Because we had fun with each other. Because on stage, I felt like a kid for years. There was no marriage. There was no discord. There was no word for our relationship and you couldn't cut it with a chainsaw.
We talked at the Academy Museum of Motion Pictures. Cher has an Oscar, of course, but that's for part two of her memoir, which she still has to write, as for her music. You've got another album you want to make?
Yes. When are you going to do that? After I get rid of this book. Because talking is harder on your voice than singing and I want to record an album and 78 is not exactly a time in your life when you want to.
I hope I'm Tony Bennett. You gave me faith to go on, now we're there and we've only just begun. And this will be our year, took a long time to come. Finding the perfect gift can sometimes feel impossible. This holiday season, give the gift of unforgettable travel experiences. With Viator, you can book guided tours, activities, excursions, and more. Viator has over 300,000 travel experiences to choose from, making it easy to find something for everyone on your list.
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That's cloud gaming with Amazon Luna. The words of columnist Peggy Noonan have helped shape political discourse in America for decades now. She's in conversation with our Robert Costa. These days you'll find Peggy Noonan in many places. In front of crowds, the secret of successful politics, be moved more by what you love than what you hate at the political roundtables. Peggy Noonan, columnist for the Wall Street Journal. And for the past quarter century in the opinion section of the Wall Street Journal. Back in the off the record bar. Yes, like the old days. But when she was just starting out in Washington, D.C., you could find Noonan here, at the off the record bar near her job at the White House.
I would sit over there by myself, I would order a beer or a glass of wine, and I would just quietly sip and read. In 1984, Noonan joined President Ronald Reagan's staff after working at CBS in New York. At first, she felt like an outsider in the buttoned up West Wing, but soon became an acclaimed speechwriter. And early on wrote Reagan's moving speech for D-Day's 40th anniversary.
These are the boys of Puentejo. These are the heroes who helped end a war. And lift off. Then, when the Challenger shuttle tragically exploded, Noonan was given a tough assignment. Write Reagan's address to a distraught nation. As they prepared for their journey and waved goodbye and slipped the surly bonds of Earth to touch the face of God.
I had a feeling of that didn't work, nothing worked, because nothing was worthy of the moment, nothing was worthy of that day. A certain friend of Reagan's saw it differently. But then Frank Sinatra called him. And then Frank Sinatra called. And he called that night to the White House to say, Mr. President, you just said what needed to be said. And Frank didn't call after every speech. By the late 80s, Noonan had said that he was going to call after every speech. By the late 80s, Noonan had cemented a reputation as a wordsmith.
And Reagan turned to her for his farewell address. We made the city stronger. We made the city freer. All in all, not bad.
Not bad at all. Read my lips. George H.W. Bush turned to her, too, as he rallied Republicans on his way to the White House.
You know, part of life is luck. It was not lucky to follow dazzling Ronald Reagan and the plainer seeming sturdy George H.W. Bush.
But I believe history was not certainly in his time sufficiently fair to him. That opinion is one of many found in the pages of her new book, A Certain Idea of America, a collection of her recent work. What's your certain idea of America today? Big, raucous, troubled, frayed. Noonan's columns often delve into questions of character and leadership.
What I do not perceive now is many politicians who are actually saying, guys, this is not good for the country. We've been given this beautiful thing called America. Shine it up.
Keep it going. You have a lot of fun in this book doing what you call taking the stick to certain people from time to time. I don't mind the stick at all. When I see something that I think is just awful, I love to get mad at it. I got mad at John Fetterman.
You don't like that he's wearing shorts. Oh, it's OK with me that he wears shorts, but he is not allowed to change the rules of the U.S. Senate to accommodate him in his little shorts and hoodie because he enjoys dressing like a child. Noonan, now 74, grew up in the Democratic strongholds of New York and New Jersey. And I was very happy with that because Democrats were cooler than Republicans. Democrats were little Bobby Kennedy and Republicans were like Dick Thornburg. But in Reagan, she saw something fresh.
You looked at him, you saw his confidence, and it made you feel optimistic. The Gipper, of course, no longer dominates the Republican Party, and President-elect Trump's victory could transform the GOP even more in the coming years. In terms of policy, the Republican Party has changed by becoming not a standard, usual conservative party, but a populist party. Issues have changed very much, but also the edge of anger and, I'm afraid, a little paranoia that is in the Republican Party now would be something that Reagan did not recognize. Tip O'Neill, Democratic leader in the House, big, tough guy. Back at the off-the-record bar, the faces on the wall and at the tables still catch her eye.
Now, Jerry Ford up here, always underestimated. For Peggy Noonan, it's all part of America's story and her own. In a way, you're still the writer in the corner.
Yeah. Watching everybody at the bar in Washington. I like to watch them. They're human, and you bring a little warmth to it, a little humor. And always bring your stick and smack them when you need to. It's kind of nice. Thank you for listening.
Please join us when our trumpet sounds again next Sunday morning. Did you know that after World War II, the U.S. government quietly brought former Nazi scientists to America in a covert operation to advance military technology? Or that in the 1950s, the U.S. Army conducted a secret experiment by releasing bacteria over San Francisco to test how a biological attack might spread without alerting the public? These might sound like conspiracy theories, but they're not. They're well-documented government operations that have been hidden away in classified files for decades. I'm Luke LaManna, a Marine Corps recon vet, and I've always had a thing for digging into the unknown. It's what led me to start my new podcast, Redacted, Declassified Mysteries. In it, I explore hidden truths and reveal some eye-opening events like covert experiments and secret operations that those in power tried to keep buried. Follow Redacted, Declassified Mysteries with me, Luke LaManna, on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.
To listen ad-free, join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app. When 60 Minutes premiered in September 1968, there was nothing like it. We realize, of course, that new approaches are not always instantly accepted.
Very few have been given access to the treasures in our archives. But that's all about to change. Will you tell me something?
If you can, we'll name no names. I'm Seth Doan of CBS News, and I'm excited to introduce a new podcast from 60 Minutes called A Second Look. The team at 60 Minutes has spent the last year digging through thousands of tapes and reels of film, and you're about to hear some of the sound that was never broadcast. Like 21-year-old Taylor Swift. Ten years from now, I'll be 30.
What's the sound then? We'll hear how much our world has changed and how it hasn't. You were either for the books or against the books. It was almost like a civil war. It's time for A Second Look. Listen to 60 Minutes, A Second Look, wherever you get your podcasts.
