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Bryant Gumble, Dick Van Dyke, Pablo Picasso a Look at the Man

CBS Sunday Morning / Jane Pauley
The Truth Network Radio
December 17, 2023 3:17 pm

Bryant Gumble, Dick Van Dyke, Pablo Picasso a Look at the Man

CBS Sunday Morning / Jane Pauley

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December 17, 2023 3:17 pm

Hosted by Jane Pauley. In our cover story, Pauley sits down with friend and former "Today" colleague Bryant Gumbel to talk about his biggest role model, and the end of his award-winning HBO series, "Real Sports." Also: Tracy Smith interviews actor Dick Van Dyke, who's just turned 98; Seth Doane visits with Australian pop superstar Kylie Minogue; Lesley Stahl interviews a doctor about the abuses suffered by hostages kidnapped by Hamas; as museums around the world honor Pablo Picasso 50 years after his death, Anthony Mason talks with the artist's daughter, Paloma.

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Start planning at, that's Z-O-L-A dot com. Good morning, I'm Jane Pauley, and this is Sunday Morning. As the holidays approach, family and friends come together, catching up on life and sharing memories of days gone by.

In that spirit, this morning, I'll do the same with a former colleague and good friend. This season, Bryant Gumbel ends almost three decades as host of Real Sports, HBO's longest running show, and the most honored program in all of sports journalism. And that's after his already groundbreaking career in television news, a world where we spent seven years together. In sports broadcasting, Bryant Gumbel had a nickname. Never Stumbled? Gumbel.

Yeah. Never Stumbled Gumbel. And for more than four decades on TV, Never Stumble Gumbel rarely has.

As immodestly as I can put it, I was fortunate to find my way into a business that fits the gifts I have. The many gifts of Bryant Gumbel later on Sunday morning. Fifty years after his passing, the world is still taking stock of the great Pablo Picasso.

We've asked Anthony Mason to take a closer look at the artist and his art. As museums around the world mark the 50th anniversary of Pablo Picasso's death, what are we to make of his reputation for chauvinism in the Me Too era? Before they made him into a god, which of course is an exaggeration. And so now he's become this terrible monster. Which you believe is an exaggeration too.

Huge exaggeration. Haloma Picasso, the artist's daughter, and others reexamine the life of Picasso later on Sunday morning. With 98 candles on his birthday cake and more than seven decades in show business, Tracey Smith is looking back and forward with the truly legendary Dick Van Dyke. This week, CBS is throwing him a 98th birthday party, but the world's been celebrating Dick Van Dyke for decades.

How important is it that you're having fun? My whole career has depended on that. Dick Van Dyke, an American classic, ahead on Sunday morning. Seth Doan takes note of pop star Kylie Minogue, plus Lesley Stahl talking with the physician who's dealt with Israel's returning hostages. Steve Hartman's visit with Secret Santa, commentary from New York Times columnist Charles Blow, and more this Sunday morning for the 17th of December, 2023.

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Discounts not available in Massachusetts, discounts not available in all states or situations. Tis the season for catching up with family and friends, a time to reminisce, reconnect, and remember. Okay. Um, Bryant Gumbel, Jane Pauley, been a while, seven years. We have some history together.

We have a lot of history together. Two thousand mornings, give or take. Bryant, welcome. This is the new day we've been talking about for so long. Thank you, Dawn, I appreciate it. Bryant Gumbel made history with his first good morning in 1982.

We're going to have some fun here, I think. Tom Brokaw's successor on today. He was the first black man to host a morning network news program.

He'd already made a name for himself in sports. Never stumbled? Gumbel.

Yeah. Never stumbled Gumbel. So long with Jane Pauley, I'm Bryant Gumbel. And just as flawlessly, he transitioned to news. This hour we'll be talking with Reverend Jesse Jackson.

As impeccably prepared as he was dressed. Have you noticed that spring has sprung in our studio? Oh, they've got the new silk in, huh? No.

Which would not describe me. Derek, can you swing down, Derek? Here. The geraniums have sprung.

I'm trying to pick one. Don't do that. They're very delicate flowers. A little dangerous, runner. Scale of one to ten, working with me was? Nine. No.

Yeah. Just try one little bite. I'm not going to. That about... Because you were always you. And I love that. Why not a ten then?

Because of consistency. There we go. My slipshod style of preparation for someone like you must have been annoying. No, no, not annoying because I never... It's funny you say that. Yeah. I never expected others to do things the way I did them.

While he conveyed an effortless polish from every detail of his wardrobe, including meticulously color-coded notes. But there's a story there. I always figured, you know what? I'm never going to be the good-looking guy. I'm never going to be the popular guy.

I'm never going to be the big guy. I'm going to have to be able to do things at the margins. I'm going to have to be able to be the guy who knows how to order food in a restaurant.

I have to be the guy who knows how to dress. I'm very aware that I ask more of myself than I would ever ask of anyone else. I am excessively demanding of one Bryant Gumbel, but not of others. Not to say he was easygoing. I was kind of the cactus of the garden. Yeah, you were prickly. Prickly. That's the word.

Prickly's a good word. Still, the garden grew. Today ratings climbed. Gumbel scored coos with the big newsmakers of the day. Though sometimes he was the newsmaker. It's something he considers now with the wisdom of age and hindsight. I've said a lot of dumb things that as I stand from a distance of a 75-year-old, you sit there and you go, wow, how could I have said that? So I'll apologize. The drama mostly stayed outside.

And after 15 years hosting today, he moved to CBS News and to Primetime. When things are seeing their most chaotic, I'm generally pretty calm. I have a lot of faith in myself. That's obvious.

That faith in yourself. Yeah. I have a feeling I know who put that there. Yeah, my father. Gumbel grew up in Chicago, the youngest of four, including the longtime sportscaster Greg Gumbel. A lot of people would have looked up to his father. Richard Gumbel was a probate court judge in Cook County, Illinois, in the 1960s, when a black man on the bench was a rarity.

Though Judge Gumbel died at the age of 52, he remains a towering presence. When people say, how do you define yourself, they say, I'm my father's son. That's who I am. At heart, that's who I am.

That's all I ever wanted to be. I had the best role model who ever lived in my dad. Judge Richard Gumbel taught me conscience, commitment, confidence, curiosity, and to believe in myself in a way that made all things possible. Gumbel was honored earlier this year with the Lifetime Achievement Award at the 44th Annual Sports Emmys. Because Real Sports with Bryant Gumbel on HBO is one of the most awarded shows on television, 37 Emmys and Dupont's MP Bodies. Why is it called Real Sports? Because at a certain point in life, I think rather than looking at athletes and how they impact the game, you look at the game and how it impacts the athletes. We want to begin tonight with the story of a too good to be true young athlete accused of rape.

Real Sports isn't sports journalism in the usual way, but sports seen through the sometimes critical lens of journalism. We've done a lot of good, thankfully, you know. Like what? Netting at baseball games.

I want them to do the right thing and fix this game. People have gotten maimed, hurt by foul balls. Now you go to every baseball game, there's netting all over the place. Heard the crack. I heard behind me and above a woman's voice say, watch out!

The next thing I know it's bam! The extent to which concussions are very much a part of the debate about football is something that we pressed a long time. You remember the football days? Oh, yeah.

What's your best memory about when you were playing football? No. That's all right.

That's okay. The news came this fall. The 320th broadcast of Real Sports would be the last.

After 29 seasons, the final episode premieres this week. What happened? Nothing happened other than I knew my contract was coming out, was ending. And I had to ask myself, did I want to do another three years? Could I do another three years?

The answer was probably not. My heart wouldn't be in it. And I'm okay with that.

I'm at peace with it. You want to be painful. Try being a Cubs fan as long as I was. That's painful. Not so prickly, Bryant Gumbel has mellowed.

He plans to spend plenty of time with his wife, Hillary, his children and grandchildren, and maybe more golf, if that's possible. Only a fool says never. So I would never say never again, but I'm not actively looking for another chapter. I'm really not. In your fantasy life, would you have played with a band or been a professional golfer or what?

No, you know what? This is going to sound very Pollyannish. I've kind of lived my fantasy life. I really have. And if you had told me when I was in high school in Chicago, what I would do with my life, I would have said, I'll sign up for that in a heartbeat.

That's my fantasy life and I'm okay with it. If you're getting ready to do your holiday shopping at Adidas, Walmart, or Macy's, make sure you head to Racketon first. Racketon helps you save big on whatever you're buying for the holidays. Getting gifts for friends and family, get some cash back for yourself. Plus save on festive home decor, party outfits, and that trip to see your fam. With Racketon, you can earn cash back on top of the biggest sales of the season.

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Join for free at or get the Racketon app. That's R-A-K-U-T-E-N. It's been more than two months since the deadly Hamas raid on Israel led to the seizure of more than 250 hostages. It's thought 150 are still in captivity.

As you may have heard, on Friday the Israeli military confirmed its troops mistakenly shot and killed three of the hostages in a Gaza gun battle. But in Israel, hostages who have been released are breaking their silence. Tonight on 60 Minutes, correspondent Leslie Stahl will talk with some of them. But this morning we hear from a physician charged with examining the hostages on their return home. About 100 Israeli hostages have been released after more than 50 days in captivity. At Sheba Medical Center, Dr. Etai Pesach and his team interviewed and examined many of them. This is where the hostages were brought. As I understand, virtually all of them, whether they wanted to come here first or not.

We knew they would need a buffer. From that time in captivity, underground, in the dark, with very little food, with a lot of psychological stress, we have to remember that these people have not been around since October 7th. On that infamous day, Hamas struck mainly the string of kibbutzes along the border with Gaza. Some of the houses were set on fire to smoke out the inhabitants. They had no home to go to and they didn't know that. You basically had to tell them. One of the largest challenges that we had is how do we break the bad news? They look around the room and they see that someone's missing.

That was something we had to prepare for. Except for a brief ceasefire, there's been an almost constant Israeli bombardment of Gaza, much of which has been pummeled into wreckage, with half the population facing severe hunger. You think all Israelis have PTSD. Well, what about Gazans?

I'm sure they are the same. And when they undergo events such as this, this will take its toll and it doesn't matter if they are on this side or the other side. If you look at the pictures on television as the hostages were coming back day after day, some of them don't look physically abused. Was that deceptive?

I think it was very deceptive. So there's not a single person that came back that didn't have a significant physical injury or a medical problem. On top of that, some of them were getting medication to look better than they actually were. I just heard a story about a young person who was branded, branded like the Holocaust. Did you see signs? You saw signs of branding.

We did see signs of branding. We definitely saw signs of being handcuffed. The stories of sexual abuse are just emerging. And there are indications that this was central to the message that the terrorists wanted to send. We did hear and see evidence of sexual abuse in a significant part of the people we have treated. We also heard evidence, and that was one of the hardest parts, of abuse against those that have stayed both physical and sexual. And the ones who are still there?

Yes. Did you hear of a psychological torture in that they were told Israel doesn't exist anymore? What really struck me is how prepared the Hamas terrorists were with their psychological torment.

It was structured and pre-planned. They're constantly saying, nobody cares about you. You are here alone. You hear the bombs falling. They don't care about you.

We're here to protect you. And this is really played with their minds. There have been some episodes when they separated two family members, separated them, and then brought them back together, and then separated them and brought them back together.

So as a parent, you would do anything in order to have your child with you, even when you're in captivity. Was there a protocol that you followed? Was there a formula how you talk to a hostage? There was no protocol.

We had to make that up as we went. Now, unfortunately, we are the world experts in receiving people that were hostage. I'm CBS News correspondent Major Garrett, host of the podcast Agent of Betrayal, the double life of Robert Hansen. During the Cold War, FBI agent Robert Hansen traded classified secrets to the Kremlin in exchange for cash and jewels. In the podcast, you'll hear from Hansen's closest friends, family members, victims, and colleagues for the most comprehensive telling of who Robert Hansen really was.

Binge the entire series now. Agent of Betrayal, the double life of Robert Hansen is available on the Wondery app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Mo Rocca, and I'm excited to announce season four of my podcast Mobituaries. I've got a whole new bunch of stories to share with you about the most fascinating people and things who are no longer with us.

From famous figures who died on the very same day to the things I wish would die, like buffets. Listen to Mobituaries with Mo Rocca on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. This year marks half a century since the death of the great Pablo Picasso, and while few doubt the genius of his art, more and more question the quality of his character. Anthony Mason has this portrait of the artist. At the Gagosian Gallery in New York, an exhibition of Pablo Picasso's works opened last month. It's one of nearly 50 shows this year in museums and galleries around the world, marking the 50th anniversary of the artist's death. From sculptures in Spain to landscapes in Mississippi. Even one exhibit at New York's Museum of Modern Art exploring works from just one summer. This work in particular stands out for its subject, vibrancy. And at Sotheby's last month, Picasso's Femme a la Montre, Woman with a Watch, became the most expensive painting to be auctioned this year. But in the Me Too era, the master's reputation has also been the target of reappraisal.

As the Brooklyn Museum put it, it's pablomatic. Do you think it's right that he's being reevaluated? Why shouldn't he be reevaluated?

We are living in a time when we no longer want to tolerate abusive behavior. Art critic Deborah Solomon raised the question in a recent New York Times column, Picasso, love him or hate him? I love the way he depicted women. I don't feel cruelty in the paintings.

I don't feel sadism. If we're going to look at his life, that's where all the problems come in. He obviously was a cad. He was a raging chauvinist. Picasso abandoned his first wife, ballet dancer Olga Koklova. The lover he left her for, Marie Therese Walter, later died by suicide. Another lover, Dora Mar, needed shock therapy after Picasso walked out on her. There's a famous photograph of him trailing Francois Gillot on the beach holding a parasol above her head.

You would think he is the most helpful lover. I don't think it really captures what he put women through. Gillot, an artist herself, became the only one of Picasso's many muses to leave him. She thought that in that relationship they should be equal.

Yeah. He didn't like that. When she left, he didn't. Aloma Picasso, the artist's last surviving child, was four years old when Picasso and Gillot split. For the next decade, she and her brother Claude would spend about four months a year with their father. What I always thought was fascinating is that every time we arrived from Paris with Claude, the house would look different because it would have been maybe through a phase of doing ceramics so the house was filled with ceramics you could hardly walk. You were aware that you were kind of growing up in a magical world.

Oh, completely. But in 1964, just months before her mother's book, Life with Picasso, was published, Aloma says her stepmother, Jacqueline Roque, abruptly cut her off from her father. I think that Jacqueline felt threatened by us. How did you feel about that at the time? Very bad, of course.

It's very difficult to take. A few times a year, Paloma says she went unannounced to her father's gated house in the south of France. What happened when you rang the doorbell?

Monsieur Nepala. He's not there. Yeah. But she kept going back.

Just because I would hear that I didn't want to see my father, so I had to do this so that I would keep my sanity. Do you think he was there? Oh, sure. Yeah. He could have made an effort to see you, couldn't he?

Actually, I did run into him once in the street, and everything was great except that Jacqueline kept pulling him, saying, oh, we have to go, Pablo, we have to go. You seem to give him a break a lot. Yes, I guess.

True. You tend to blame it on people around him or on your stepmother. So I'm daddy's little girl, I suppose. This year, Paloma, a renowned jewelry designer, took over the administration that runs the artist's estate.

Post Me Too, there's been some attempt to sort of reappraise your father. Right. How do you feel about that? Before, they made him into a god, which, of course, is an exaggeration. And so now he's become this terrible monster. Which you believe is an exaggeration, too. Huge exaggeration. Of course, he had some faults, but he was not nice to his men friends, either.

Nobody cares about that. So given all the discussion about who Picasso was as a man, has your view of him changed in any way, given the way- No, he's still a ****. Artist Mickalene Thomas. Has that affected your respect for him as an artist in any way? It's complicated. And that's OK.

I mean, there are family members that are the same way. He was innovative, experimental, and he did it half the time in his underwear. Thomas's own series of work, TĂȘte du Femme, took inspiration from Picasso's female portraits. You don't think Picasso should be canceled?

I wouldn't want my work to be canceled. I think it's very complex, because right now we can separate the art from the artist because he's not here. But would we hold him accountable if he was? Art is larger than this moment, and this moment is causing a lot of dissent, much of it justified, but art is larger than that. Art critic Deborah Solomon says we should look to cubism, which Picasso created, to understand the artist. What made him a modern artist is that he took on the single-point perspective that had prevailed in art for 500 years. And he believed that we never see things just one way. You're saying we should see him the same way.

Exactly. When we look at Picasso, he deserves to be seen from multiple perspectives. It's OK to have conflicting feelings about him.

You can say, I love his work, but yes, he was a bad boyfriend, and I'm glad I never met him. This is Stephen Colbert, here to talk to you about The Late Show Pod Show, which is our podcast of The Late Show with Stephen Colbert. I'm here with my producer, Becca. Becca, what can people expect on the podcast?

The extended moments, for sure. For instance, if I'm talking to Tom Hanks for like 20 minutes, only 14 of that ever makes it to air because we just don't have time. And Tom's a jabber-jaw, you know, he's a chatty cat. But it's all gold because it's Tom Hanks and we put that on the podcast. We do.

That's value added. Listen to The Late Show Pod Show with Stephen Colbert wherever you get your podcasts. We just performed a dazzling concert in London and started a residency in Las Vegas. Singer Kylie Minogue is a world-famous pop star, has been for decades.

With Seth Doan, we take note. This show sparkles, mostly because of the high-energy star at the center of it, Kylie Minogue. Thirty-five years into her massive music career, the Australian Grammy-winning pop star has landed in Las Vegas. We heard you sing Vegas high. Are you on a Vegas high? I'm absolutely on a Vegas high. The energy in this show is, I mean, it's huge. Her residency at Voltaire Theatre at the Venetian Resort means 20 performances in a city as glitzy and glittery as her shows.

I've done, you know, huge tours like Aphrodite with precision water fountains and, I mean, like insanity really. She's just five feet tall, but big is something of a trademark for Minogue, whether in record sales 80 million worldwide, or hits, with her brand of dance-fueled, cheerful sensuality. But in Vegas, she's gone intimate.

As it turns out, I think it's perfect. It's been a good year for the 55-year-old pop star. Her song, Padaam Padaam, became a viral sensation, and now is Grammy-nominated.

Padaam went beyond my fan base, and that's hugely exciting. And importantly for Minogue, it was a hit in the U.S. You're a global superstar, but you're less well-known in America. Does that matter to you?

It matters a little, yeah. It's something that I'm working on. It's part of why I'm here and spending time in your land. But you've sold lots of records. You don't need to prove yourself from a commercial success.

I know. How much success is enough success? We first saw that success in London, in the form of fans lined up for a September pop-up event celebrating the release of her 16th studio album, Tension. Earlier we met in the neighborhood where she lived for nearly three decades and asked what she'd tell her younger self. Listen to your inner voice. Don't get bossed around and enjoy the ride, because it's going to go like that. Do you feel like you didn't enjoy the ride at times?

I am a natural stressor when it comes to a lot of things. You do this with your hair. Minogue's determination took her from a middle-class family in Melbourne, Australia, to landing a job as a teenager in Neighbors, a popular soap opera. Her singing began almost by chance. I recorded the locomotion just as a demo. I sang it at a fundraising event. It was the thing that led to my career in music. It was a hit.

So was her second song, I Should Be So Lucky. Still, she faced some skepticism. I think I was seen as the puppet, and to a degree, I was, for sure. I did not know what I was doing.

I did what I was told. But there's a steely part of me that I kind of overlooked for a while, and now there's really not much that happens that I'm not across. Yet she had no control over her 2005 breast cancer diagnosis. She underwent surgery and chemotherapy and was declared cancer-free in 2006, but the experience is still raw for her.

You have to get on. You have to get on with stuff, but... Is it fear that's coming through? It's trauma, and any trauma resides within you. The experience of a cancer diagnosis will live in me. It was difficult. It was also amazing. Amazing in what way?

Amazing in that you are very aware of your body and of the love that's around you, of your capability, all sorts of things. Do you sing to process any of that? I sing to process everything, I think. I write to process. I perform to process. And sometimes I think I live to perform.

Enjoy the show. Come, come, come into my world. Won't you lift me up? Kylie Minogue keeps performing and says it's mind-boggling she's still at it 35 years on.

Las Vegas! It seems there's not much that can stop her. How long will you keep doing this? Ask my knees.

Ask my knees that have been stomping on stages for years and years and years in stupid high heels. Steve Hartman is here to remind us that what really matters at Christmas isn't the getting, but the giving. The red caps were the only clue, the only hint that something Christmas was afoot, something that would soon strike straight to the heart. Are you guys serious? Seriously?

The kids responsible for these moments of overwhelming joy are all students and former students of Derek Brown, a Phoenix Elementary teacher who uses my stories to teach kindness and character, a perennial favorite, Secret Santa, that wealthy businessman who every year gives out hundreds of hundred dollar bills to random strangers. It's impossible. This is impossible. It is possible.

It's true. Watching Secret Santa do his thing made a huge impression on the kids. I was like shocked because, well, who does that? I've never seen anyone like give, just give money away like that. Could you imagine that someday it would be you?

No, not ever. And so with guidance from Mr. Brown, I sent everybody an itinerary. The kids started a Secret Santa Club and began fundraising, calling friends, family and businesses. They raised $8,000 without any help from their school or district just so they could turn around and give it all away. It's OK. To people like Rosemarie Hernandez.

Rosemarie had been out of work for a week. You will give me a lot of relief. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

You're good. Oh my God. They also gave money to Deidre Taylor. Oh my God.

Deidre had just gotten diagnosed with cancer and was down to her last $20. You guys are amazing. The children spent the day changing dozens of lives. And along the way, they noticed something remarkable that the more they gave, the more they got. I'm so happy right now.

You get so many feelings in your body that just makes you like want to do it again. Their joy, that's the gift to you. Their joy, that's the gift to you. Exactly the realization Mr. Brown was hoping for. I want this memory to be so strong that it now drives them every day in everything they do. Did today change you?

Definitely. I never felt this way in my life. So this was really a life changer for me.

Whoever said money can't buy happiness, obviously, never gave it away. Thank you so much. God bless you. God bless you too.

Thank you. Merry Christmas. It's a jolly holiday with Mary. No wonder that it's Mary that we love. Just four days after the great Dick Van Dyke celebrated his 98th birthday, we figured this was the perfect weekend to celebrate him. Tracy Smith does the honors. Oh, yeah, he's still got it.

At 98, Dick Van Dyke still sings with his group, the Van-tastics, and still makes it all look easy. Chitty, Chitty, Bang, Bang, Chitty, Chitty, Bang, Bang, Find more friends, Chitty, Chitty, Friend. That was great.

I didn't even know they were coming. How important is it that you're having fun when you're doing it? My whole career has depended on that. If I'm not enjoying myself, I'm really bad. I am. It's such a blessing to find a way of making a living that you love, that you do for nothing. I feel so sorry for people who hate their jobs. I look forward to going to work every morning. The Dick Van Dyke Show.

And some of his work helped define a generation. Imagine Minneapolis without St. Paul, it's harmony, that's all. Take the Dick Van Dyke Show. It ran for five years on CBS, and it was such a hit that they're bringing it back, sort of.

Ladies and gentlemen. This week, CBS will air a two-hour tribute, Dick Van Dyke, 98 Years of Magic. And for the occasion, they even recreated the original Dick Van Dyke Show set, down to that well-known ottoman. The famous living room is an example of mid-century modern design, but the scripts had no reference to the time period at all.

No pop culture, no slang, no politics. They wanted the Dick Van Dyke Show to be like the man himself, timeless. Early in his career, Van Dyke was quoted as saying he only wanted to make films his children could watch.

That got the attention of Walt Disney, who promptly cast him in Mary Poppins. Bad Cockney accent and all. What did I tell you?

There's the whole world at your feet. Oh, you pretty, chitty, bang, bang, chitty, chitty, bang, bang, we love you. And his next few films were equally family-friendly, like this one, which was based on a book by James Bond creator, Ian Fleming.

Bang, bang, chitty, chitty, bang, bang, our fine fourth vendor friend. From then on, Van Dyke was almost always typecast as the good guy. Did you miss out on some big parts? Yeah, I could have been James Bond. You could have been James Bond?

Yep. When Sean Connery left, the producer said, would you like to be the next Bond? I said, have you heard my Benny Saxon click? Is that true? That's a true story.

Chief, I am a candidate for mayor. Dick Van Dyke's career went on, of course. He made more movies and more TV shows. What have I got here?

An elephant. He also survived alcoholism and built a body of work that has yet to be finished. Is there one thing that people say to you that gets to you that makes you say, oh, I did this right? I'm on my third generation. I'm getting letters from little kids, and that is what I love, that they watch the movies over and over. No, I'm getting so much more mail today than I did during the heyday of my career. It seems that in showbiz, the true legends never stop. Just look at this interview from 2017 with his friends, Norman Lear and Carl Reiner. There's something about 90, hitting 90. I know I can get applause just standing up.

People are more afraid of aging than they are death these days, and we need to tell them there's a lot of good living to do. The last time that I sat down and had a long conversation with you, it was with Norman on one side and Carl. Yes, my two favorite human beings. They're both gone now.

Both gone, yeah. I can't believe it. Is it hard to wrap your mind around that?

Yes. Everybody I knew and worked with, there's no one left. How do you deal with that? Well, I try not to by making new friends and getting involved in a lot of things.

Try to keep busy. I know you think about this. Do you think about why you're still around? As I've said, if I had known I was going to live this long, I would have taken better care of myself. Yeah, because I went through that whole period of alcoholism. But my wife, God bless her, makes sure that I go to the gym three days a week and do a full workout.

And then I do these. And his workouts are pretty legendary, as Anthony Mason saw in 2021. But it's kept him going and going. You wrote something in your autobiography, Don't Be Scared of Dying, Be More Frightened That You Haven't Finished Living. That was a good quote I said, get your living done first. And have the nerve to try something. Failure is OK. I read something about you.

You do the New York Times crossword in pen. Yeah. What does that say about you? That I'm very confident. I feel like I could fly.

Still, the taping of his special last week left him pretty speechless. This is just mind-blowing. I can't have any words. You know, it's just, I mean, it's past my bedtime now, I'm even sleeping.

With his wife Arlene at his side, it was a tribute to a remarkable life that even he still can't believe is his. You never planned any of this? No. I never did. As a businessman, I'm not much good.

I would do a movie or something and come home and just sit down, wait for the phone to ring. I wasn't aggressive. So I was out of work a lot because I didn't go out and look for it. And how did that sit with you? Well, I didn't mind it. I'm pretty lazy, really.

When I'm having fun, you know, all right. No, I'm a lazy person. Really?

I don't have a lot of drive. I've been very lucky. Wow. Oh, somebody picked me up and put me over there.

That's wonderful. It just sort of happened. It did. It just happened.

Absolutely. And then, right in front of us, this happened. He started singing again, and the weight of nearly 100 years fell away. And Dick Van Dyke was what he's always been, a happy kid.

When you find the joy of living is loving and giving, you'll be there when the waiting dies to toss, to toss, a smile is just a frown that's turned upside down, so smile and that smile and be proud, and be proud, and don't forget to keep your fingers crossed, ba-dum-dum, yeah. That's awesome. Whew.

So awesome. Our commentary is from New York Times columnist Charles Blow, whose new HBO documentary is now streaming on Max. At the end of the Civil War, three southern states were majority black, and others were very close to being so. And during Reconstruction, the 14th and 15th Amendments to the Constitution made black people citizens and gave black men the right to vote. This led to years of tremendous progress for black people, in part because of the political power they could now access and wield on the state level. But when Reconstruction was allowed to fail and Jim Crow was allowed to rise, that power was stymied.

So began more decades of brutal oppression. In the early 1910s, people began to flee the South for more economic opportunity and the possibility of more social and political inclusion in cities to the North and West. This became known as the Great Migration and lasted until 1970. But nearly as soon as the Great Migration ended, a reverse migration of black people back to the South began, and that reverse migration, while nowhere near as robust as the original, is still happening today. In 2001, I published a book called The Devil You Know, encouraging even more black people to join this reverse migration and reclaim the state power that black people had during Reconstruction.

I joined that reverse migration myself, moving from Brooklyn to Atlanta. Next year, I set out to make a documentary, which road-tested the idea, traveling the country, both North and South, and having people wrestle with this idea of black power. I suggest that black people return to the states with the highest percentages already of black people, where they can gain political power.

We gotta get back and claim really what we built. Here are three things from that experience. First, black people are tired of marching and appealing for the existing power structure to treat them fairly. Second, young black voters respond to a power message more than to a message of fear and guilt. And third, many of the people I talked to had never truly allowed themselves to consider that there was another path to power that didn't run through other people's remorse, pity, or sense of righteousness.

I don't know if black people will heed my call and re-establish their majority or near majorities in southern states, but sparking the conversation about the revolutionary possibility of doing so could change the entire conversation about power in this country in the same way that it has changed me. Thank you for listening. Please join us when our trumpet sounds again next Sunday morning. Hey Prime members! You can listen to CBS Sunday Morning with Jane Pauley ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen ad-free with Wondery Plus in Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at slash survey.
Whisper: medium.en / 2023-12-17 16:29:39 / 2023-12-17 16:47:33 / 18

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