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You're listening to an extended interview from the latest edition of Sunday Morning. I loved your movie. Thank you. Look, you've had some leading man roles in movies, but but you're like the you know you're one of the great character actors in the history of of movies. Oh wow.
Well, I'll take that compliment. I'm not sure, but you know. But I mean, you know, being a character actor. I one of the reasons I wanted to be an actor was. I didn't always want to be, you know, play myself.
Basically, you know, you want to escape and imagine yourself in different periods and with different languages and whether it's prose or iambic pentameter, you know, you there's an imaginative flight that you take.
So, even if I play the lead character, you know, say in the television movie I played Howard Cosell in Monday Night. Mayhem, you know he's a character. You know he was a character.
So though there are great actors who don't maybe say transform, you know, not transformative type of actors, but they're great at what they do, and you believe them in any situation too. Yeah, I mean I don't know an actor who doesn't like being called a character actor. Yeah, I mean I am because that phrase character it's right there. Yeah, that's right. I mean you know I mean James Cagney was a leader, a leading man.
But he also was, you know. A character actor too, in in some ways. But that sort of strikes me. What happens here? Like this is pickpocket.
You're still a character actor, but you can lead the cast too. I mean, listen. I when I read the script, I thought, wow, this what what a great structure. It reminded me of a lot of the films that you show on TCM. You know, it's like a the clock is ticking.
It's almost Aristotelian. It's not 24 hours, 36 hours, but within this tense sort of crime thriller, there's all this humanity and like. Tenderness. There's like this love story, and there's this guy who, basically, the world has changed around him. His own personal relationship with the woman he lives with, technology, his chosen profession.
You know, is being sort of he's obsolete in some ways.
So, how does someone like that survive in a in a such a fast changing world? And just. I found it very evocative and moving when I read the script, and then when I met Noah Segen, who wrote it, you know, my my question was, you know, could he execute it? And he had done tremendous amount of research, and and he did, he did execute it. But we had a long gestation period and preparation, and that really, really, really helped.
Everything about your character, Harry, is old school. Yeah. Right. And and not in a cliched way. In what feels like a very authentic way.
Right. Clothes, coat. Looking for a payphone. You know. Yeah.
And and the job also. Right. Like this is the. I mean that was really a huge sort of. Criminal profession when people carried cash and they, you know, they wore people still wear nice watches, you know, or tie pins and and I like how you glance at my yeah I glance at your watch immediately.
You know, I read a lot of different books about pickpockets. A lot of them came from broken homes, orphanages, and stuff, and especially. In the 30s and 40s, there's a book called Wizmob by the same guy who wrote The Big Con that The Sting was based on, and he interviewed all these pickpockets, and they had a real sort of morality to what they did because it was a non-violent crime. It was a violation, but sometimes they take the wallet, throw it in the mailbox, so you'd get the wallet back. You've been super open about this with me here, and at other times, you know, but a lot of you guys.
You don't, you know, you don't, you don't like to talk about technique, and I don't know why we're so fascinated with it. I think because what you do amazes us so much, right? That we want to know how. How do you become this other person? I think children do it naturally.
They just do it naturally. They they play act. They they. They make up you know things, and it seems so serious when they're playing little figures or whatever.
So there's a childlike joy in that. Then later on, you learn the craft if you're doing a play of how to keep people's attention, sustain it, have enough variety, have enough musicality, physicality, contradiction. You know. A lot of performance has to do with what interests you know you. But I think when I did that as a kid, I would watch.
I didn't go to the theater that much when I was young, but I watched the Million Dollar Movie, and I watched all these great movies from the thirties, forties, fifties. And my parents were big movie lovers. My mom was a singer too, and. I fell in love with those people, and and those people all came from the theater, vaudeville, acrobats, and those people opened up my brains. You know, whether it was Barbara Stanwyck or Edward G.
or Cagney or Betty Davis, and I, they're like part of me. Look, your first movie is Raging Bulls. Obviously, very small part, but you work with, you know, you're there working for Martin Scorsese, who you work with again later in Color Money, and you're, you know, and you're working later with Paul Newman and Robert Redford's directing you. And compared to Pacino and De Niro, you're supposed to be, those are the guys that somebody your age, is supposed to idolize. And I'm sure I did, and I'm sure you do.
I'm not. I did. But it's interesting. That the people you keep bringing up are that it's Cagney and Stanwyck and Edward G. Robinson.
Well, those people were the first. They were all the first. Mitchum, Burt Lancaster. They were later on when I saw Dustin the first time. I was kind of shocked because I thought, Oh my God, he looks like someone in my family, and something went a bell went off in my head, and I was thinking like.
Yeah, maybe I could, maybe I could think about doing this. I didn't know that. And then when I saw Pacino and De Niro, I was like, they were. That was very inspirational. It was like a door was opening for not so much actors of color at that time, but ethnic actors more.
And it was, and it was opening up for a little bit for all different kinds of people. And it was for a bit. But it it had a big effect on me. What was that Hoffman movie? Was it Graduate?
It it was a it was a I had I hadn't seen the Graduate. It was a clip of Midnight Cowboy. It was a scene, and I just I was just stunned by it, and I was like, wow! I and I couldn't see it. It was rated X.
I was too young to see it, and then I saw you know, you know, early De Niro and Pacino, and and it just was. You know a lot of those actors, Duval and you know Hackman, and then all the Casavettes people. You know, Jenna Rollins, of course. You know, so yeah, that those are people. They've had big effect on you.
They really have, and I'm sure people. You know, just like Brando had a big effect on them. You know. Oh, you listen to Pacino talk about Brando. Yeah, yeah.
He's like, yeah, he's the best. Yeah. So, do you remember the scene? And which scene it was in Midnight Cowboy? I think it was a scene in a diner.
Yeah. When he said he was like, "Oh, Joe, you know, I only got sixty-four cents in my my pocket, Joe," you know. And I was like, "Who is this guy? Who is this guy?" You know. And I told Dustin that later.
You know. And yeah, just. You know, but those those people, you know, they had Charles Lawton. You know, I mean, just. Huge effect on me.
You said you were performing at a young age. Who were you performing for? Oh, my, you know, my parents and stuff. But my parents, basically, when I went to a really good acting class based on the Sandy Meisner technique, which you improvise, you do a repeat exercise. I thought, well, this is like being, you know, in the kitchen with my parents because they would go moment to moment, and nothing would pass.
I would say, "What's that look, man? You know, what are you thinking? You know." I know what you're thinking, and my mother would pick it back up and go back and forth with your father. Yeah, oh yeah, and so it was, like non, you know, and they had kind of a very intimate relationship and volatile at certain times. And when we used to watch the honeymooners when we I was really little kid, my older brother Ralph used to call the show "Mommy and Daddy." And we just watched Mommy and Daddy, and I think we weren't the only ones, you know, who did that.
But it was, you know, an expressive, sometimes explosive household.
So you learn like what size is and what also quiet is within that. We'll have more from our Sunday morning extended interview after this break. I've told the story many times. You don't have to tell it all again. But the the the getting.
I mean, obviously, it's a little part. It's described as a non-speaking part. Your role in in raging bull, in raging bull, but it's not really non-speaking. You got a little. There's something there.
I say, Hey, Jake. Jake, very very nervously. Hey, Jake. But as your first line is delivered to Robert De Niro, it's pretty. Yeah.
Well, I I auditioned with Michael Batalucco, my my very dear friend, and we had prepared a scene from the book. And De Niro and Scorsese were just talking to us, because we were in this little off off Broadway play, Tooth of Crime, and they said, "Well, we have a scene." And they they were saying, "Well, we don't have a finished script." And I said, "Yeah, but we have our own scene. We adapted from the book. It was my first audition." And professional audition, and Bob wanted us to do it, and we moved the table, all four of us, and we did this scene for them. And they always, you know, Bob has brought it up to me over the years that you know that he got you.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're in this business because I am. Yeah, yeah, and there was two of our, you know, heroes at the time, and. You know, I've worked on a lot of films that Marty's executive produced too, and that he's encouraged me to do. Francesco Rosi's *The Truce*.
Marty was the person brought us together, and so that was a big thrill. And I've gotten to work with both of them, you know, since then.
So, I mean, Scorsese, Coen Brothers, Spike Lee, Robert Redford. Like you've Peter Weir. Peter Weir. You've worked with some great directors. They're all different.
They're all different. But what's the through line? I think they're all very prepared. They they have a vision, and a really good director makes you feel like you're a collaborator too. That there's room for you for your input.
You know, you're not a puppet on a string. And and they're all different. They do it all different ways.
Some people like to improvise.
Some people like. This is the script, but you can try it all different ways, and I think a lot of them are sure of themselves, so they don't have to be. They don't have to browbeat you into anything, you know. And you know, I've worked with a lot of other directors who are terrific too, Alison Anders, Ernest Dickerson. That you know, wonderful experiences with, and you know, that's what I I like.
That I enjoy. To plug into, if you're going to direct something, to plug into your brain, and say, well, what, what is Ben's sense of humor, his sensibility, and so then I can understand that, and and then you know bring sort of something to, to supplement that.
So you're drawing little bits of all those people, whether it's Ernest, Allison, and and then all the big names we mentioned—Scorsese and Redford—and yeah, I mean Redford was great with with physicality and and moving, and we we had a very intimate relationship, and I used to love to you know kid around with him and stuff, but I I loved working with him. And you got to work with him like eight years after working with Newman. Oh yeah, I mean I got to work with Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid at the premiere of Quiz Show. There's a picture somewhere with me with both of them and Paul Newman saying, "You know, you did good, kid. You know, you you did good." And I was like, "This is a little surreal, you know, for me, you know." But you know, they're people.
They're human beings too. You know, they're human beings. We so connect with these. These actors and the characters they play, like you just revealed, that Paul Newman came to the quiz show premiere. Yeah, which like is beautiful.
Yeah, it's just lovely. He was a beautiful guy. Yeah, yeah. Did a bunch of like charity things with him, and he was just. He said something very interesting to me in his trailer in *Color of Money*, because he wanted me to come and sit with him, and he said, "You know, it took me 25 years," he said, "to relax on screen." Really, I said.
Well, you could have fooled me. Yeah, I said because I'm a big, you know, hustler fan, and a lot of somebody up there likes me. Fan. He said, but just to be able to relax, and if you watch Paul Newman, he actually got better. I think he's one of the the actors you really see mature, like a fine wine.
He did. There's no question, but like, but he was still great. But like, he's great in the verdict. But he, like, you're telling me that actor in Hud wasn't relaxed. That seems crazy.
He said, "I was always working too hard, John." You know, and I was thinking, "Well, here's a serious guy. Here's a guy who's still working on his craft." Yeah, and I, I respect that because you got to be a craftsman first before you can reach those other. What was the connection you had with Spike Lee? Why do you think you guys?
Well, he saw Five Corners, and I did a lot of crazy things in that movie, and he he said, "I want to, you know, meet you." And when I read him, met him, we're the same age. I'm three weeks older than him, and we have so much in common. I grew up. Primarily for six years of my life in a black neighborhood. He grew up in Italian neighborhood.
Both in New York. Yeah, both in New York. I was bused out to an old black school, so it was really strange meeting him. It was almost like meeting a, a family member or something. And I knew what he was talking about intrinsically.
And when I got the script, he said, "Well, this is this would do the right thing." Yeah, would you like to play? And I said, "I'd rather play the racist because that's the guy." You know that's what the movie is about, and the racist son of Danny. The racist son. Do you think he wanted you to choose that character? I think he was happy that I did.
Yeah, because I, you know, one thing about me is like I don't need to be liked if I'm doing a movie. What I need to do is to hold your attention. And I can, you know, surprise you. You know, I'm not looking to be, to soften the edges with it, or even making, you know, worse than it is. It is what it is, and it's it's around us.
It's a, it's around us constantly. Right. You've seen that. You've seen that guy. Yeah.
And and you see it in all different forms. That's right. In all different forms. Yeah. And so I think that's one of the unspoken things in our country, which has such diversity.
You know, it's it's something we grapple with more than a lot of other countries who are homogenous. Another character that you voice and look, you got, and it's his most memorable scene in a movie that I'll remember all my life. But Miller's Crossing, right? Who was that? I actually.
You know, I read a lot of stuff about that period and stuff, but I was looking for someone, and I interviewed my accountant at the time, Abe Altman, who was a very Abe Altman, who was a dear friend, and I interviewed him because I liked the way he laughed and the sound, and he also could speak Yiddish, and I figured, well, the guy would have spoken Yiddish.
So he must have some kind of Yiddish inflection.
So I had Abe do all the lines just flat, and then do it in Yiddish. That scene in Miller's Crossing—that, I mean, in the in the list of difficult scenes. That's a difficult scene. Yeah, I I had one advantage. Because I did have, when I was younger, I was a serious basketball player.
My friends and I came home from a party, and we had like bike with a banana seat, you know, and a handle. We pulled into a schoolyard, PS thirty eight, where I played basketball, where I went to school, and this guy was shooting baskets, and was three of us.
So he thought maybe we were. Going to try to steal something from him. It was was late. We were, but he was shooting baskets late. And as I pulled into the bike thing, the guy, must he was a policeman.
He took out a gun. He put it right to my head on my bike. And I was like, I was frozen. And I remember feeling like my legs are just. And I said, Listen, we just wanted to play basketball.
And he said, Oh, I thought you were trying to. I said. I didn't want to play, but then we did, and my legs were like, you know, that you see you played afterwards. I played afterwards, and my legs was so heavy afterwards. But I never forgot this feeling of having this gun pointed at my head, and I mean, I, you know, I was good thing he was calm enough not to do something crazy.
But it was always in my mind. I was like, wow. And so when the guy put his gun there, I was like, I know what that feels like a little bit. And I also felt like, okay, in this situation, a person will do anything to survive. Yeah, they'll they'll they'll they'll talk.
They'll try to reason. They'll cry. They'll do this. It's it's got to be the performance of your life. You're trying to affect the other person.
So that scene, which is what like I don't know three four minutes long, something yeah whatever yeah, and like you know that if the movie works. That scene's going to be a memorable part of it.
Well, they have to edit it, right? Sure, and those guys do. Right, you know, those guys do it. They, they.
Sometimes you do something and you go, "That's not what I did." It's been truncated. And sometimes, the the the moment that got you to the last moment is taken out. And and you're going like I started here and then I'm there like they they weren't following it you know and and that happens you know for necessity sometimes sometimes but and sometimes it's a mistake that's it sometimes it is a mistake but but so that's what I meant but you know if the movie works which means they know what they're doing then that scene's going to make an impact right you can't possibly know in four minutes that you're going to make the same kind of impact in Lebowski. No, the truth of the matter is, I had done a play called La Pura Vida, where I played a character called Chino, similar by Renaldo Pravad, at the Public Theater, and they they were fascinated. Joel was with that character, and he said, "We want you to do something like that." Accent.
Yeah, you know, with the because I I once again interviewed the playwright's father, who had just gotten out of prison. And I asked him what he was going to do today. I said, Mister Pravda, what are you going to do today?
So I'm just going to, you know, hang out. I ain't got nothing else to do. You know, he was like, he was like Russian Cuban. The mother was Puerto Rican. He was Russian Cuban, and he had this gentle, really gentle voice.
And I just, I fell in love. And to do that on stage was hard to do that gentle voice. Got to have a, but.
So when Joel and Ethan said they kept telling me they're going to write it, and then I saw it. I said, "It's so small. There's nothing." And they were like, "Yeah, but you'll do something with it. We know you'll do something with it." So I said, "Okay." But then they were talking a lot about him, and I didn't know what kind of music they were going to put in. And so I came up with some of these ideas of dancing like Muhammad Ali and shining the ball.
Some of them I came up with on the spot, and I was still very thin. It was. Like four months or five months after the truce, I was still very thin. I had gained a little weight back, and I was just doing it to entertain my friends. I wanted to entertain them, and do all kinds of crazy.
And I didn't know they were going to use licking the ball, was shining the ball, all that stuff. But they trusted me to add some stuff, and they gave me the jumpsuit. Then I, I said, well, I want the nail, I want the the hairnet, and we worked, you know, together on it. And you know, I did a like a little bit of a sequel movie to it, which not a lot of people have seen. The Jesus rolls, which I think has a lot of fun.
Stuff in it, so I always loved that that that character because I said, "Well, what would you see him in a full movie? You can't be that you know that heightened." But I mean, that's a movie that it wasn't a big hit here when it came out, you know. But Jeff is brilliant in it, John and Steve, and it's it's such a funny movie. It's such a I mean, people wouldn't remember it. You know, remember what I did.
If it wasn't that funny of a movie, but I have gotten lots of mail over the years from all kinds of men, women, about their attraction to Jesus. People with tattoos all over their body, sometimes intimate places. I'm like, I was in the movie for five minutes. I said, you know, give me a break over here. You know what I mean?
But you know, I really, honestly, man, I did it. To, like, entertain my you know my friends and I, Jeff, I, I, and John, those are two, you know. And Steve, those are those are great actors. They knew, like you say, you did it for your friends. Yeah, but they knew whether it's for your friends or not.
They knew. He's gonna do something. Yeah. Well, they showed me. They showed me because I was editing something, and when they were editing it, they showed me the sequence, you know, the with the music, cut.
And I have to say, I was really embarrassed the first time I saw it. I was like, and they would. It was during their mix. They said, "We want to show you something." I was laughing, but I was really embarrassed. I was like, "I can't believe you put all this stuff in there," you know, because it's like we were friends, and we were like seven years old.
They say, "Babe, come on over. Let's let's let's." Do a show together, you know. You want to make your friend laugh. Yeah, yeah. Can you measure success without awards?
Yes, I've been able to work and do interesting things and entertain people and maybe even make them think sometimes, or laugh, or you know, cry at different times, and take them away from their lives.
So, I'm very, very appreciative. Of where I am, you know. I, if I look at it, in you know, I would go, wow, you know, as Paul Newman said, you did good, kid.
So I want to keep that up, and I feel like I'm in a very fruitful time. I'm Jane Pauley. Thank you for listening. And for more of our extended interviews, follow and listen to Sunday morning on the free Odyssey app. Or wherever you get your podcasts.
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