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There's no question artificial intelligence has brought revolutionary change to our world. but not without controversy. Huge, power-hungry data centers are popping up by the thousands in towns across America. One proponent is Pennsylvania's Republican Senator Dave McCormick. He's talking with Sunday morning's Robert Costa.
AI It's on everybody's mind. including people in Pennsylvania. There are challenges with it in terms of the infrastructure for sure. How do you see the AI race? Who is the United States racing against?
Yeah, well, I think it's, this is a big thing to say, but I think it's the most transformative thing. that will happen in our lifetimes. Here's a really big statement. It might be the most transformative thing to happen in human history. That's how big.
Of a technological change is happening. You can think of the printing press or the industrial revolution, the combustion engine, this is much bigger. And It has enormous consequences for society. It has enormous consequences for national security. for productivity, for how we think about work, for our society in general.
So and it's happening. Whether we like it or not, this is something that is happening. And so the question is. How do we as a society guide it? The question is, how do we make sure It is to the benefit of all society that it helps everyone, and how do we mitigate?
The risk of it, and so that's the starting point that I have for it. And when I talk about AI, I also talk about. energy because they're Different sides of the same coin. You can't have AI leadership. without having energy leadership.
Those two go hand in hand. And I do think we're in a battle. with China. for leadership. In AI and energy.
And I think the consequences of not winning. Uh that race. is that China will set the terms. of how the technology is deployed or set the terms for potentially what it means for the world.
So I think it's something that we have to lead and and win. And I think it depends much more on what we do than what China does. In other words, of building blocks the ingredients for success are in our hands. and we just need to take advantage of it.
So that's sort of the starting point. You have said you want Pennsylvania to be the tip of the spear. when it comes to the success of AI, the development of AI in terms of helping the economy. of your state, but what does that mean? In reality, how does a state be the tip of the spear?
Well, first, I think if you sort of agree with what I just said, that this is something America needs to lead on. Then I think Pennsylvania Can be the point of the spear for America's leadership. And I think we're uniquely. position to be that and it's a little bit of like do you want to be the dog or the tail If this is happening.
So, I and I think it is happening. Then, we in Pennsylvania want to be the state. that takes advantage. I think the net benefit for Pennsylvania is enormous And Pennsylvania is uniquely positioned. To take advantage of it.
There is such a range of opinion on data centers. Senator Bernie Sanders on the left wants a moratorium. on their construction. And there are those more on the right. Capitalists who say, leave them alone.
Where do you land in that spectrum?
Well, to answer that question, I think you have to start with the premise that I said earlier, which is this AI energy revolution is happening. America needs to lead. And therefore, if it's happening, how do you guide it? In a way that benefits everyone.
So, my basic view is that if you look at what data centers and energy infrastructure brings to communities. There's enormous benefits.
So, I want to make sure every community that's weighing in on this is doing it in the most informed way. When I think about my promises, to Pennsylvania, the thing I kept saying about is jobs, jobs, jobs. We need new jobs. Pennsylvania was at the forefront of the Industrial Revolution. We've been at the forefront of innovation.
But to make sure that our economy grows, to make sure that we create opportunities for our kids so they don't go elsewhere. We need to have great jobs. How can you make sure those jobs are for Pennsylvanians when it comes to these data centers? I think there's four or five big uh growth opportunities for jobs. The first is building.
the data centers.
So that's a huge source of job creation. Those are those skilled workers. And many labor groups are supportive of the construction of these things. The trades are absolutely supportive. This is a new growth industry for them.
So building, Running the data centers. There's a lot less. Thousands build data centers. Hundreds run data centers. But those are great paying jobs.
The interesting thing about data centers is every four years, they need to be updated with brand new technology.
So then there's another splurge of jobs that comes with that. There's all the energy infrastructure. new transmission, fracking, nuclear reactors, all of those jobs. are enormous and you have to build the energy infrastructure. Uh along with The data centers, those go hand in hand.
You've talked a lot about nuclear. How important Might nuclear need to be when it comes to powering these centers? It's a huge source of opportunity because. Nuclear power is baseload power. And you need steady power.
To be able to manage these data centers. And you have intermittent power like solar and wind, which can contribute to the grid, but you need baseline power that comes from fracking, comes from nuclear, comes from coal.
So, nuclear is really going to be an enormous part. If you think, for example, that our energy demand. May triple. in the next 15 years, which is what some project. There's no way you can satisfy that without embracing nuclear.
Now, you know there's concern out there among some of your constituents about. Nuclear power, especially with the history of Pennsylvania. Sure. You know, nuclear power has evolved dramatically. The safety is indisputable.
There's new small reactors that offer. I mean, I can see a a future not too far down the road where you have a data center and a and a nuclear. A reactor next to it, a small nuclear reactor just to power. The data center. It's an enormous source of growth.
And let me tell you a tale of two countries. I was in the government 25 years ago, and I remember being part of a meeting with the French and the Germans. And the Germans under Angela Merkel at the time said, you know, we're going to get rid of fossil fuels, we're going to get rid of nuclear power. and they became dependent on Russian natural gas. And we saw what happened during the Russian invasion of Ukraine and so forth.
Sitting next to them were the French who said, We're going to embrace nuclear power, and now 92%. Of the power needs of France are met by nuclear power.
So, nuclear power needs to have a renaissance in the United States, the safety Uh the ease with which that'll help support our energy needs is huge. And we need to fix our regulatory processes to allow that to happen. you know, a decade. To be able to get the approvals to build a new grip.
So we need to do permitting reform, which is something I've been a a real champion of. To allow all energy infrastructure, whether it's natural gas or whether it's nuclear. Or solar or wind, whatever it is, to be streamlined in a way that we can get that investment in the ground. Before you were in the U.S. Senate, you were in the private sector working in the financial space.
What's the cost when you talk to your friends in that world? Should the United States or Pennsylvania reject data centers, reject being part of this project? I'll answer that question. I want to go back to the community part. I do think communities Need to have a real voice in whether this is something they want to embrace in their community.
So it's not like I'm saying, you know, we should do this. uh community by community without the community saying we've assessed All the different dimensions of this, and we believe this is what's best for you. Do you think buy-in is necessary? Absolutely. At a local level.
No, I think buy-in is absolutely necessary at a local level. And when a community looks at the totality of the jobs, the tax revenue. The new roads, the libraries, the schools, the opportunity of jobs for their kids. I think these are pretty compelling. opportunities for communities.
Those would be compelling and they could be compelling. Just when we sometimes talk to people in Pennsylvania, They just want to make sure that those kind of promises Really happens. Absolutely. That if someone's, if a developer's talking about helping with the roads and the schools and the baseball fields, that it really happens down the line. Yeah, no, that's true.
There's got to be a covenant. There's got to be a promise. that goes from the community to those that are developing in the community. Of what kind of job creation, how they're going to protect the environment, how they're going to protect water supply, how they're going to protect energy costs. You know, the president came out.
I guess a week ago. With that, essentially, that compact, where a number of the big hyperscalers signed, which they said that they would ensure that energy prices weren't. Driven up by the power demands. I think that's going to be absolutely necessary. Where the investors in these data centers say that we're going to make sure that there's no additional burden on the grid.
No additional burden on prices. We're going to take those costs onto ourselves. Um if they're going to make uh contributions to the local community in terms of libraries or roads or whatever it is, they need to say that up front. They need to say how many jobs it's going to be because that affects the tax base.
So it needs to be a very well-informed Decision of a community. And if in the end, The community sees all those facts. and they choose not to, that's absolutely something that might make sense for that community. I believe that in most cases, when those communities are able to weigh the benefits. Let me talk about water as an example.
I hear all the time that people are concerned about water.
Well, if they go to Loudoun County, That you mentioned in Virginia, what they'll see is the large majority of data centers are closed-loop. uh recycle. 95% of the water.
So the water demand on the community is very limited. But each community needs to go through that assessment themselves. I was just in one of the rural counties in Pennsylvania. A couple weeks ago, when I met with a bunch of county commissioners who were assessing a data center, and they had gone down to Loudoun County, and they came back and said, My lord, I learned so much. That I was misinformed about.
So I think as long as everybody has the facts and they're deciding based on the facts, I think. I think these are going to be pretty compelling opportunities for most Pennsylvania communities.
So many people are worried about their energy bills. the electricity that's coming in from the uh utility locally. Uh You've introduced, in a bipartisan way, the Liquid Cooling for AI Act. When you step back What's going to be the federal role? What's going to be the role of Congress.
In trying to contain some of the problems here that are perceived by many constituents of Europe?
Well, I think there's a couple big areas that, and it's moving. As I said, it's moving so quickly. There's so much innovation happening that Congress needs to. I think study and get in front of these issues so we can be productive. I view myself as someone who's very interested in this and it's very difficult to keep up.
There's so much change. But I think the the biggest challenge right now we have Putting aside how AI is going to affect jobs and so forth, I want to come back to that in a minute. But the biggest challenge in terms of infrastructure. is permitting reform. We can't build the energy fast enough.
to meet the growing demand for energy. And the biggest obstacle to that is the permitting that I spoke about earlier.
So we need to have federal permitting reform. That's legislation that I've contributed to and am trying to champion. That's a critical thing. The reason it's so critical is it gets. those energy projects moving to meet this need.
It's also a huge economic policy because there's about a trillion and a half dollars of capital. That's sitting on the sidelines because it can't, it doesn't want to invest into this uncertain environment. Oh, I'm going to invest my capital, it's going to take 10 years to build a pipeline.
So that's the number one thing that we can do to meet this growing surge of demand for artificial intelligence data centers and so forth. There's also a whole set of questions about how this affects the workforce. And it's a little bit too early to tell, honestly, but I think a couple things are clear. One is, at least for people that build stuff, build things in Pennsylvania, it's going to be a huge area of opportunity. You can't, I mean, the most secure job in Pennsylvania right now is an experienced welder.
You can't get enough of them. There are so many Americans and Pennsylvanians who understand the promise and peril of AI. They want to see economic development in places that have felt left behind. At the same time, many of these people say, Not in my backyard. They don't want these data centers built.
in their small town. What do you say to those who understand why AI matters, but don't want the data centers In their neighborhood?
Well, it's just sort of back to, I mean, I grew up in a small town, I grew up in Bloomsburg, Pennsylvania. We had a mill When I was growing up, a lot of my friends, their parents went to high school. There was a carpet mill. It employed about 2,000 people. Today it employs about 150 people.
And so our town was forever changed by the fact that there wasn't something that replaced. That mill. Lots of the kids who graduate from high school go other places because there's not an opportunity.
So now you have this huge economic opportunity, huge opportunity for growth. Of jobs and each community. is going to have to make a decision. on whether they want all the benefits that come with that. as well as some of the trade-offs that come with that.
And I think it's going to be community by community, but at least across Pennsylvania. Most people I meet are looking for chances to create jobs. create growth and opportunity. And the biggest thing that's happened in our lifetimes Pennsylvania is uniquely positioned to be a leader in. How important is it for America to win this race in AI?
I mean, I think it's... The most important question facing our country. If we are in a position of unique power, I think sometimes we take for granted. what it means to be a global superpower. the global superpower.
that position in the world could be displaced overnight. if we somehow fail to maintain leadership. in this AI in this AI world. Also, we should never lose sight of the fact that AI has all sorts of downside risk, it has enormous upside risk. life sciences, of remediating diseases.
I mean, there's all sorts of incredible things that can come from this moment of opportunity.
So we want to be the country, we want to be the leadership that manages how all those trade-offs are made, and that alone will be an enormous challenge for us, but just imagine. If China or someone else is setting the terms of that debate. That would not be good for any of us, certainly not good for our children. I'm Jane Pauley. Thank you for listening.
And for more of our extended interviews, follow and listen to Sunday Morning on the free Odyssey app. or wherever you get your podcasts. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies.
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