What does possibility mean to you? Um, that's a hard question.
Something that you can strive for. I'm able to do anything I set my mind to. You're confident in yourself and you believe in yourself. Stuff that you could achieve. I feel at Saida.
Anything is possible when you're more confident. Shoes are a huge part of that. They are the most important part of my style. You can like express yourself in the right shoes. Anything is possible.
DSW, countless shoes at bragworthy prices. Imagine the possibilities. Let's talk about drama because what's happening across the country right now, it's next level. Attacks are intensifying on reproductive health care, including abortion. Lawmakers who want to force their personal beliefs on everyone else are coming after birth control, abortion, gender-affirming care, and more.
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Sunday morning's Anthony Mason does just that. Let's talk about touring because How when when when's the last time you toured? Before now? Yeah.
Well, now they like to be like, oh, the last tour ended in, this is a new tour. But the last show I did was literally a year ago, which is not that long, no. But you're touring in a. different way now. Correct.
How's it feeling? It's feeling really good, actually. Is it? It's super. It's like.
Very similar in a lot of ways, but also a very different How's it different?
Well, I don't have my brother. Yeah.
And I've never done a show without my brother in my life. I mean, I've barely performed and sung without my brother, like, ever. I don't have my parents on the road. I mean, they're coming out to visit, and that's been like amazing, but I don't have the same kind of. Structure that I had before, and then also I'm playing in the round, which I've never done before, and that.
I guess surprisingly to me, I guess it shouldn't be so surprising, but it is. Is a completely different experience for me. Like, completely different. I don't know. How does it feel different?
It's like Well, I'm never... really off stage. I'm kind of always Like I can't turn around and then feel like I'm not. Looking at somebody. Yeah, so.
There is a funny thing. When you turn around, you can pretend the audience is behind you. Yeah.
So I can't really feel like anyone's behind me. I'm like, I'm always on the stage. And also there's just Everyone is everywhere, so I have to make sure that I'm like. giving everyone an equal amount of like Me, you know, and like, I want to be even with that. I don't want to like be, you know, have favoritism in the crowd.
But it's been amazing. It's honestly like. What I do love about the round is that It seems that every Single person in the entire audience has a good view. Yeah.
That's what's really cool about it. Yeah.
Did you have to prepare yourself kind of emotionally for going out without your brother? I Yes, but I also didn't know that w like we di we talked about that happening like two years ago and it's been, you know, a known thing f within our Family for two years, and so I kind of was like, Oh no, it'll it'll be great and it's what we both, you know, it's what's right and whatever and then like two weeks. until I was gonna leave came and we were both like It was getting a little bit sad and just bittersweet and like emotional. And then the couple of days before I left we're just like Panic attacks? What would you do?
Choked up every time I'd talk about it or think about it. And Phineas was so sweet about it, and he was like, you know. this is the way it is right now, but like If you ever Need me, I will get on a plane as soon as you want, which is really sweet. That's a good broken. And then he also, like, You know, it's like they're not on tour with me, but like You know, he immediately came to Newark and played that show with me.
And my parents were there, and then we were all in New York, and he played all three shows there. It's been amazing, truly. Once you got on the road, you were okay?
Well, I really plan. You know what? Instead of like preparing emotionally, like I did prepare emotionally, but the thing that I really did was uh planned uh to not be lonely. Like I I really I was like, okay. Taking my best friends as my openers, hiring a couple of my best friends as my backup singers.
hiring more band members, bringing another of my best friends to work on tour. you know, bring my mom out, bring my dad out for some make sure we're going to the park.
Okay. Make sure we're playing games, make sure we're, you know, getting food, going out, going on walks. Like, I really, that's the thing that I really planned. And also, like, Tour has been such a depressive Experience in my life so much, and I really didn't in the past, and I just didn't want to. I was like, I kind of, I've said this before, but I had like a realization where I was like, oh, this isn't just like a temporary thing that I have to suffer through.
Like, I can make this enjoyable. It should be enjoyable. And that's also like, I love. I love doing the show so much. That I shouldn't have to just be miserable up until the show.
It should be like. The whole day is, you know, obviously it's like travel and it's tiring and it's gruesome, but it's fun.
Well, it's I mean, if you have the show itself to look forward to, that's a big thing. Yes. You like being out there. I do. Yeah.
And you don't have any stage fright about going out there or anything like that? No. No. No. No.
Yeah, no, not at all. I feel like. How do you feel when you're out there? I feel I I feel different. on different nights.
Yeah.
Um I feel Well The way that my show starts, like this specific tour, I'll just talk about this one because that's the one that I'm on and the one I just started. But the way that the show starts is. There's this big intro that you know, I have this big cube in the middle of the stage and it lights up and then it pulses and then it raises up and You know, spoiler alert, I'm in the cube, but you can't see me. Red. But what's really interesting, and nobody really knows this because they can't see the other side, but The cube is is a bunch of um like screen walls, and they're white.
And so on the outside, it's like a super bright white screen. But on the inside, they're not a screen, and I can see fully through them. But I'm not lit up at all, so they can't see me, but I can literally see Everybody, so well from inside this box. It's a very Crazy. It's like, it feels like I'm wearing an invisibility cloak.
Like I, and I'm up there right there for like an entire minute before they can see me.
So I'm just looking around and staring at people and So it's a little bit surreal by the time they can see me, because I've been able to see them for a couple minutes. That's a luxury you don't have most of the time. No, that's true. That's true. But it also makes me feel a little like I'm not real.
So I kind of have to like remember that, oh, now they can see me and we're together. But also when I'm on stage, what do I feel? I feel. I feel so Free in my body. Like, so, so free in my body.
And I also. really do not experience Any kind of stage fright or even nerves, really, at all. I'm like, is that good? I don't know. I think it is.
Well, I think it is. A lot of people have it. Yeah, of course. And it feels totally natural. Of course.
Some people will say if you don't have it, that's not a, you know, there's something wrong. But I get it. I mean, it's nice that you don't. I think it's great that you don't. I have like little pieces of it.
Yeah.
Like. But also, I have it in random moments. But also, it's like it's less nerves and more just. excitement and less like Oh god, what if it's bad? It's more just like You know, I oh, I need it to be, I want it to be like this, and I'm eager, and it's just more of like a adrenaline Excitement and less of a fear or nervousness.
That's great. Yeah, it's pretty awesome. When I think about how your music is made, Yeah. In Phineas' basement, basically. Yeah.
It's such an intimate. creative experience to go from that to You know. 20,000 people or whatever it is. Yeah, there's something super Um like almost paranormal about like making music with your brother. In your family home, or Phineas' home, or his, you know, the yard, and it's like, no one's heard it, and no one, this isn't paranormal.
What I'm getting to is paranormal. But, like, no one's heard it except maybe your friend or your mom, or you know, and it's this like intimate, it's like, you know, writing something in your notes that's like some feeling of yours, or journaling, or whatever, and then. You put it out in the world. And people connect to it and then Aside from connecting to it, the fact that they just know it at all, can hear it, are listening to it is so weird and insane. And but at the same time, you kind of have no proof that that's happening until you're on stage.
And like the first show of this tour was in Quebec. City. And I started singing The Greatest, which is like one of my favorite songs that Phineas and I have written and Just a song that I was feel really pr I just feel really proud of and love and also isn't a big song. And He like started playing it and got to the pre-chorus and like took my one of my in ears out and I just I like looked around the room and I could just hear, you know, 25,000. people, humans.
singing along to this song That until that moment was just like this private Intimate You know, personal, scary, vulnerable thing for me. And then it's You hear it with thousands of people singing it, and it's just like the most amazing form of connection that I know. Yeah.
I want to talk to you about voice because you've talked a lot about using your voice on this record. Um and I read something that you said a while back, or maybe it was just sort of in the run-up to the release of this. um about at least how until Until recently, you really didn't identify as a singer. Right. Which I find.
Surprising. It's a little stupid, right? It's not stupid. I just interesting that you didn't think of yourself that way.
Well, let me clarify. Because It's more that I've I've loved singing more than anything for like my whole life. Yeah.
But it felt so normal to me that I loved singing. Like I didn't feel I it was never something that I you know felt the need to you know, parade around. Like, I never felt like I had to You never thought of it as a job description. Right, exactly. And I would never like, I remember growing up with kids who'd be like, I'm a singer.
And I remember hearing that s those words and I'd be like, Interesting, cool.
Okay. And that never I just never wanted to I I never like Singing was never my personality. Like, you know how, like, singing is some little kid's personality, and that's like all they want to do. Yeah.
For me, it was this, like, and it might sound like pick me of me or whatever, but like, it really was just this special thing that was mine. And, like, people didn't really know I even cared about singing. It was just like something that was special to me. And also To me, it felt like an obvious, like it was like, I was like, duh, of course I love singing. It's like my favorite thing in the world.
So anything that I would talk about loving. I can promise you I didn't love it as much as I love singing. And so to me that was obvious.
So I never really felt like I needed to be like, well, I'm a singer. That's, yeah, that's part of my job description. One of the things I do is I'm a singer. And I also, you know, was kind of told for so many years that I wasn't a singer because a singer has a big, you know, powerhouse voice. You know, was it?
The whole internet. Oops. Like honestly. And also every single, you know, music uh whatever those shows are called, like all of those audition Music shows. Every single show that I loved so much growing up, watching, you know, all of those talent got whatever that I loved, that I, you know.
Every judge on those shows would just be like You know, if you're a soft singer, then that's not enough. Like, you can't, that's you need to do more. I need more, I need you to project, and I need, you know, I need you to be able to belt these really high notes and do all these crazy runs. And so, I kind of Just thought I wasn't, like, I couldn't do those things, and so I was like, oh, well, I guess that's not. Like, I watched people on those shows.
You know, they have really beautiful, soft voices, and they get rejected because of that. And so I thought, oh, okay, well, then that means I'm. I'm not a real singer because I can't really do that.
So, okay, whatever. I love singing, but I guess I'm not a singer. And because I also sang kind of quietly when I started out, and I kind of. People always said I whispered, you know, that was the whole thing that I whispered and I was. you know, it was really really quiet and soft and stuff.
It's like Yeah, there was a lot of like Oh well because of that, that's not real singing. Um so I always had this kind of idea that I wasn't really a good singer. But I honestly like It didn't really matter to me because it was just kind of an annoying Things. Just like floating around.
Some weird judgment that people made. Yeah.
But As I've grown up, my voice has grown up. And gotten stronger and better and About like Two years ago-ish, I I had never really done any like singing lessons aside from like Growing up in a choir and stuff. Yeah.
And I met someone who I started working with and um doing singing lessons with. And I kind of had this idea that like You know, oh, if you can sing, then you don't need to do singing lessons. Singing lessons are for people that can't sing. And, like, singing lessons are for anybody. You don't have to, you can just do them.
And what I didn't really. No, until I started doing it was Like It's an instrument that you can Practice and And you know improve. And like, I can't even tell you how amazing the experience of of you know Working on my instrument has been. Right. And that being my voice.
It's like I've never felt so connected to myself and more. Like, now I believe in myself.
So, you thought singing was yours. It was very purely you. Yeah.
I thought that doing a singing lesson would mean that I'm not a singer, or like I can't sing somehow. Yeah.
I thought it was like. Like I would, I remember my mom would be like, you should do singing lessons, and I'd be like, Why? I'm not... I'm not a singer, like I don't why would I yeah. What would I be doing that for?
What am I working on? And because it was this like precious thing of mine. It's kind of like when you love a show, like a T V show, so much and then somebody else is like, I love that show, and you're like, okay. Leave me alone about it. That's my show.
Not the way I do. You don't know it. Yeah, you don't know it the way that I know it. And I think that's kind of how I felt about it. I don't know.
But you have to think about the greatest. you know The most talented people at the thing that you like doing take lessons. They have a teacher. The greatest tennis players all have coaches. Every athlete has a coach.
The best in the world. You don't just get good and then you just stop. It's just not how it works. And I don't think I really understood that. Or like.
Could allow that to happen. And I also have always been scared of being bad at stuff. And because of my kind of insecurity of like, well, I'm not a big singer, so I'm not a good singer, I was worried that a singing teacher would just tell me I wasn't a Good singer. Yeah.
And that's not true. It's it's I guess There's a fear that you're going to give something up. Yeah.
Or it's gonna change you. Yeah.
Yeah.
But instead it's empowering. Yeah.
It's amazing. It's like the greatest thing I've ever gotten to do. Yeah.
What's great about it for you? I mean, it's it's like growing. It's growth. Yeah.
Have you found some part of yourself you didn't even know was there? Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah. I mean, my voice. Like, I. I can't tell you how much Like How many results I've seen. Like, I didn't know that was going to happen.
I didn't know that was possible. I thought, like, this is the voice that I have, and it is the way it is. You know, and I'll never be able to do a run like that. I'll never be able to belt that note. I'll never have this range, and I'll never, you know, sing this low of a note.
It's just not true. Like, it's just not. And it's like, I can't. express how gratifying and satisfying and fulfilling it has been to like learn these things about my own voice that's in my body that I didn't even know I was capable of. It's liberating.
It's so liberating. Yeah.
And it's just fun. It just feels good. And it's also like. It can be emotional. Like it makes you get out of your, it's like pushes you out of your comfort zone, which is always scary, obviously.
Yeah.
And you know, sometimes it can make you cry. Like I've had sessions where I'm like you know, singing something that just doesn't is just a little bit scary and not in my comforting blanket world. Once you do it, it's like it feels like liberating.
Well, there you open up a whole world of possibilities. I know. It's amazing. You were when you started making this record, were you already taking vocal lessons? Barely.
Barely. Barely. Like a little bit. Because you reached on this record in ways. But you wouldn't be able to do that.
the lessons that I then started to take during the making of it. Yeah.
That's really cool. I know. It's really cool. And it's even crazier. Like, you know, the album is really, really fresh for me, and it feels still like we just made it because we did.
Yeah.
But, like, you know, I last night performed a couple of the songs, acoustic. Um with my brother for this event and like Even now, you know, a half a year later, and like my voice is just a completely new. I just have all these new choices that I can make. And I'm singing these songs that When I was recording them, they were the hardest songs I'd ever recorded, and I couldn't hit the notes, and I couldn't do it, and I was stressed out, and you know, scared. And now I hit them like it's nothing, and I do, I can change them and I can play with them.
And it's like, God, it's amazing. Like, learning is so amazing. I cannot stress enough. How Incredible it feels to learn. Yeah.
Ugh. And it's also like, it's, I just suffer from just being so. Worried about being bad at stuff, and I just, I'm like, I, you know, I think I have that thing that a lot of people have where you don't want to try something new because you don't want to be bad at it. And it's like why do you think you have that? Hmm.
Why do I think I have to come from? Um I think it comes from In my experience, A few things, the first thing that comes to my mind is like being the only girl in a sport. Uh Uh in a league. Like that. And so I saw a post last night that was like That was like, here's a video.
It was like an amazing video of a little girl skateboarding with a bunch of boys, and I was like, Wow, that's amazing. But it the caption was like, see just proves that like Kids don't see gender or age. And I was like, uh, what are you talking about? Like, being a young girl, an athletic young girl, wanting to be in s like sports and like Do different active things was literally like the scariest part of my whole life, like to this day. Like auditioning.
Trying out for a sport and you're the only girl or whatever is like.
So scary. And the twelve-year-old boys are truly, like, still the scariest. Beings in the world to me. Just because I was that kid, and I think I've I've always been afraid of being bad at something because when you're a girl, and you're bad at something once. then all the boys think you're bad at that forever.
Yeah.
And That's kind of how it felt like being a young girl in all those classes and stuff. If you messed up once, they just never passed you again. And I think I always will carry that kind of.
Okay, well then I have to be really good immediately, or I'm never gonna get pass to Frisbee or whatever. It's like that's the stuff you end up trying to sort out for the rest of your life. I know. I know. It's like, and hopefully you get close.
I also think it just comes from being a competitive person and just always being I've always been the most competitive person since I was a little kid and I think anyone who's competitive wants to be the best at what they do. Yeah.
Are you competitive with yourself as well? I was gonna say I don't know, but actually yes, for sure. Yeah.
I'm not like toxically competitive, but I'm definitely like...
Well, are you, I mean, you're athletically competitive. Yeah.
Are you artistically competitive? With myself? Yes. Yes, but I would say only when I'm. Yeah, I am.
But honestly, it's more of like an inspirational thing. I don't think it's as much like. I have to beat that last thing I did. I think it's more like that thing I did I feel really good about and it was really cool. I have to do something equally as cool or cooler.
It's not like I'm bad.
Now I was better then, or vice versa. It's kind of like just taking inspiration from different times, but I definitely. I mean, and it's easy to do this when your whole life is on camera, but I definitely like to romanticize different periods of my life and then feel. a sort of Competitiveness with the period of my life, in a way. Where I like w I'm trying to beat That period of my life with this period, I don't know.
It's weird.
Well, you want it to be as good as it was then. Yes. Yeah.
Yeah.
That could drive you nuts. Yeah.
It does. Yeah, and it's like all filmed.
So I don't know, I couldn't, I don't know how you do that. Yeah, I see. We'll have more from our Sunday morning extended interview. After this break. We all belong outside.
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So when you sit down to make a record, because I think so much of the challenge for an artist at various points in life is what makes them want to make something. Right. You know? Yeah.
And a lot of times it's the chore of You know. The order from the label that we need a record, or whatever it is. Yeah.
And from what I understand, you were never. but least until recently. you didn't think of yourself so much as a songwriter. Yeah.
Has that changed? It's changed. I've had a lot of revelations real recently. Yeah.
Um and a few of them being that I Like Honestly, I've just really grown up around the most talented people, like my family. You know, I have the most talented brother. He's the most talented person I know, you know, and like such an incredibly talented mom, incredibly talented dad, and like. That's the kind of thing that is so supportive, like it makes you strive to be better, but also you're like, Whoa, they're really good. Like, what if I can't be that good?
But I think it did more good for me than bad. I really feel like I was almost. only just inspired by that. But I bring this up because You know, for instance, I like I just produced a song for a couple of my friends, and it's the first song I've ever produced myself for someone else. when we like started working on it, I was like, well just so you guys know like I'm not I'm not really good at producing.
Like, I don't really know. what I'm doing on logic. And they're like, okay, well, we don't really know either. And then we like opened the session and I'm like, you know, doing all these things. And they were like, what are you talking about?
You know you totally know what you're doing. And I think I'm just like, oh, well, I'm just so used to You know, I've learned from my brother. My brother is so good that I think I. I'm better than I thought because the better is Phineas. Phineas is better.
And I think, like, you know, the other, like, I've always been like. I'm not a very good cook. My mom is the greatest cook in the world. And like the other day, I was making dinner, and my friend was like, You're a great cook. Like, you're great at this.
And I think it's like, oh, well, my mom's the best cook I know, so I didn't know that. And I think, like, with songwriting, I had a little bit of that. I'm with Phineas, dude. Like, he's. The greatest songwriter.
He's so fast and he's so smart and thoughtful and like just like hits it right where it's just like Mm-hmm. I think that the difference is that Because I grew up with Phineas, you know, he His passion is songwriting. And my passion has never been songwriting. My passion is music and performing and singing. And songwriting is something that I do so that I can then sing it and perform it.
The people that I know that are real songwriters and that's what they call themselves, they do it to survive. And for me, I do it. to then sing. And it's really interesting how many. Artists who would say their songwriters first and their singers second.
I know. Yeah.
I know. You don't have that feeling. I feel like I'm neither first. I'm. With this record, did your attitude towards songwriting change at all?
It did. It totally did. Yeah.
And interestingly to what I'm saying, like I did way more writing on this album than anything ever. I mean, you know. I've been writing, but this is the thing I'm trying to say: is that like, I've been writing music since I was 11. Right. But because.
I wasn't as fast at it, or it wasn't as good as my brother. I kind of thought, oh, I'm not a songwriter. But the truth is, like, if I was an only child in a household with no music and no musicians, it'd be like. Billy is the songwriter. Like, that would be the thing.
I think sometimes when you grow up in the shadow of somebody who is very good at something, you cannot see your own talent in that particular thing. Totally. Totally get that. Yeah.
Experienced a version of it myself. But what's interesting to me is you're talking now about two things in the last year or so. One is you've discovered a part of your voice you didn't even know was there, and you've discovered you're more of a songwriter than you ever thought. Yeah.
Where does that leave you? Great question. I don't I will see. I don't know. It left me in a very daunting uh intimidating s album making process because um you know, it was a mixture of it was it was two things that were happening.
It was like me being more inspired than ever to make music and Phineas being the least inspired he's ever been. And Phineas and I were, you know, how siblings are, and families and relationships and friendships. Everything does this, but like, when you're kind of not in the same Frequency groove, right? And so this was a period of time when Phineas and I. Obviously we're super close and with nothing was weird, but it was just like We were kind of just a little bit.
uneven in our In our kind of groove, like you said. You were in different places. Different places. Yeah.
And I think also we didn't really know what to say No. And I think Phineas was I mean I know Phineas was having like a lot of kind of crises about feeling like he had nothing to say. And like nothing he had to say was interesting. And it was really interesting to me because That's how I felt. For so many years, and I always had Phineas to like lean back on and be like, oh, well, I'm not inspired, but you always do it.
You always get us there, and you always bring the lyrics out of me. In that moment, did you feel? Alone? Yeah, totally. And also, that's not Phineas' fault.
I mean, I think why it was scary was I was like Seeing myself in him. And I was like I was basically just He was just being me from the last four years. And so I was just like... Mm. Oh my god, what do I do with this?
Like, this was my role to be the kind of thing. Like, I don't want to make an album. I don't want to write, I don't have anything to say. Because that was kind of going on, and also because he could tell I was feeling inspired. We switched, we physically switched places in the studio without really even meaning to.
Like we made all of happier than ever. Um him at the desk and me on the couch, like laying there and You know, it was an equal process, like we both made 50-50 of the album. But with this one, I was at the desk and he was at the couch for a lot of it until we both We're at the desk, and we were both doing the equal amount. And, like, he there were moments where, like, you know, it used to kind of be like we would sit there and And come up with stuff and if I just got a little like you know A little repetitive and not coming up with anything, he'd just like come up with something and and instead She Waited. He just waited me out until I came up with it.
And It was so scary for me because I'd never really done that. And again, I've never really enjoyed the songwriting experience. What did you find when he did that? I found that I at first would be You know, why aren't you helping me? Why aren't you coming up with anything?
And then in just being given that space I'd I'd come up with it. And like He kind of said that, like, with this album, he's always been so used to writing so fast and coming up with things super fast, but. That doesn't always yield the greatest results. It yields the quickest results. But he He has told me that like part of what he did for this album and writing this album with me was he just would wait.
a little bit longer. Yeah.
until I came up with You know. the idea. And then he would come up with like The great idea, and then I come, like it was so, you know, saying that one of us made this album. It's just wrong. We both equally made this album.
It's as much his as it is mine. A lot can happen in that. silent space. Right. You need that.
Yeah, you do. You can't be creative. If you have no room. Yeah.
You know? Yeah.
You have to respect it. Mm-hmm. Because there's all kinds of stuff down there. All kinds of stuff. When we talked to him, I guess it was at the end of last year, like probably December.
He had talked about how Um How you'd act, you guys had actually, you were at a point where you were actually pretty. Oh yeah. And are you I mean, are you familiar with that place? Are you comfortable in that place when you get stuck? It never is comfortable.
No. It never you never get used to it. You never remember it. Like it happens and you're like, What the hell? You're like, I'm never going to create again.
That's really how it feels. Yeah, you don't say to yourself, Oh, I've been here before, it's going to be alright. It feels like when you have a cold and your nose is stuffy, and you're like, My nose has never been not stuffy, and it will never be again. It feels like that, it really does. Yeah, and You also like.
Can't remember how it felt to breathe. Like, that's how it feels when you have that kind of, you know, what they call writer's block. And Phineas and I kind of have this whole. look and view on writer's block that Writer's block is like kind of a mental State, like it's not really real. Because you don't really have writer's block, you feel like you're.
You know, you're not you're not like overflowing with with inspiration and you're not making anything you think is good. But you can make anything. Like you you know, you just might think it's really bad. And You know, I think writer's block is something we hide behind when we're Feeling insecure and bad about ourselves, and we're like, Well, I have writer's block. It's a very real feeling, but I think It's like so easy to be hard on yourself when you aren't feeling creative, but really, it's like.
You know, sometimes you can't force it. Like, sometimes it's like. Maybe it's not writer's block, maybe it's your body being like, please go take a bath. Like, God, go to sleep. You know, like, we don't need to be doing this right now.
And or it's you know. Or it's maybe today is the day you need to write something really bad. And maybe it'll give you an idea to write something good. You know? There's no writer's block.
There's fear. There's fear. And I've suffered from that an enormous amount. And Truly like making hit me hard and soft, especially in the Kind of Beginning, no, honestly, the entire making of that album, but it was like, it was like. December, January, end of 22 into 23.
where we were just completely like Just like hopeless. I mean, we were just like, oh, well, we're never gonna. We're never gonna make this. We can't. We're not capable of it anymore.
We used to be able to make music, and that's probably because I was 15 and Phineas was 19, and there was something special about it. And now that we're adults and we have our own lives and people like us, we can't do it anymore. We've lost it. I genuinely believed that. It was terrifying, and it felt like I'd never felt it before, even though I had.
And it just took like. Just took some like patience and like talking about it and You know, allowing yourself to be bad for a second. Like, that's so important. Dear to suck, as they say. To suck.
Yeah.
Also, boredom is part of the process. 100%. Right? Yeah.
I think you've got to leave your mind the room to. Just go inside of itself. Also, experience, like, go, you know. Go live a little bit. You don't have to worry about getting something done right now.
You can go. You know, go experience and have something to say.
Something you said interested me because you've talked about how.
Sometimes you don't like yourself in relationships because you don't like feeling vulnerable. How do you write songs then, if you feel that way? It's really hard. It's very difficult for me. Because songs are all about vulnerability.
Yeah.
Is that a conversation with yourself about opening yourself up and being willing to be that? Or what happens? To be honest, I have a really hard time. Like Two things. I have a really hard like if I'm writing on my own.
Yeah.
It's really hard for me to write about my own experience in the moment. A million times easier for me to write about somebody else, somebody else's life.
Somebody else's view, something that happened to somebody else, or even something that happened to me years and years ago. But it happened, I'm not in it. And So you can write about Barbie. Yeah, I was gonna say that. When we were in that complete dead patch of like we can't make anything We saw that movie.
And honestly, like, Greta said something to us in that period of time. She knew, she was like, I know you guys are in this album process. I'm sure it's really challenging and honestly Sometimes I like to have a a reason to procrastinate or like a a little Um Yeah, a little like other, what's it called in video games when you have like a little side hustle or whatever you call it, like That's kind of, she said that. She was like, sometimes it's nice to like. Oh, a side quest.
There you go. She was like, sometimes it's nice to have a little side quest that you have to go on to then get back to what you were doing. And that really, honestly, I gotta give it to that song. That song really like kinda kinda sorta saved us a little. I mean, really brought us out of a Uninspired.
whole. Honestly, it's why I It's why Phineas and I work so well together. is that I It's hard for me to Yeah. what's going on. In front of me.
Yeah.
And Phineas knows me better than anyone, and I know him better than anyone. And The reason I can be so vulnerable is because it's my brother. When I look at videos of us writing music, It's literally almost the entire video is just me being like, well, and I also feel like, you know, if I did this, then this would happen. I also feel like if I said, you know, when I do this, then this happens. And it's like, as I'm saying that, Phineas is like, well, then, what if you just said it like this?
And then I'm like, oh, what if I said it like this? And then I rhyme it, and then he adds another word, and then we find another. And then it's like, slowly, you're being more honest than you. were even being in your conversation because You know. You're being seen.
I mean I Like I wrote a song recently alone I wrote a verse alone. That I wrote so fast And felt so proud of, and it was a a A verse that I wrote About my friend from the perspective of her friend. that she was having, you know, some Sadness with. And I sent it to her, and I was like, hey, this is, I just wrote this verse from the perspective of your friend that you're really sad about. to you.
And she was like, what? What the hell? I think that's where I just thrive, is like seeing People and seeing others.
Well, then sometimes you reveal parts of yourself in doing that. Literally, when I wrote that verse, I like two days later was like. Oh, this is exactly the situation that I'm in with somebody that I know. And I didn't even really put that together. I mean, it's the same with like, what was I made for?
I mean, that song. We wrote solely From the perspective of a Barbie doll. Right. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no, it's about Barbie and Ken. It has nothing to do with my life.
genuinely, and then, you know, a couple of days went by and I was like, oh. This is exactly my life. Cool. Literally every word.
So, I don't know. I think the honesty. Is subconscious. Yeah.
I don't think I'm. meaning to do it. And I think that if I'd mean to do it It's too vulnerable. And I will also say My kind of fears about vulnerability and Weakness, it's really weakness. It's less vulnerability, it's more weakness.
I I have found that that That indulging in in being vulnerable and being known and You know, being honest is actually really rewarding. And It's also like Can be really fulfilling and actually. Mm-hmm. Make you experience more love than you even thought. And like closing yourself off to things, you know, we close ourselves off to things because we're scared of like getting hurt or hurting someone or.
something involving pain, you know? The truth is Yeah, that's always a risk, but You have no idea how much love you can experience. if you allow it. And I've always been really Had a really weird relationship to weakness and like. being seen as weak.
Female Speaker 2 And I think that And just just submitting to that and and just being like, you know what? Maybe I'll be seen as weak and I won't win this, but I don't need to win anything. I just. I am a person that is capable of loving and being loved and that is all I can do.
Well, and it's all how you define winning, isn't it? Yeah, isn't it? What do you define winning as? Depends on the day. Yeah.
Right. I would think you would have to accept vulnerability. to do what you do because otherwise how could you walk onto stage? Yeah.
Well, it's kind of complicated for me because I'm I'm Actually, a very not closed off person. I'm a very open. honest person and I I I honestly wish I wasn't as much. Like, I, I, it, it bites me in the ass. Like, it comes back to haunt me.
Yeah.
But oversharing. Yeah.
Oh. I'm I queen of the oversharing, but Well, that's a w it's an interesting conflict with you because on the one hand. It is, right? Yeah.
Because on the other hand, you give up a lot in any conversation. But on the other hand, You don't like to be perceived as weak. But vulnerability I think vulnerability is like scary because you're worried it's gonna make you appear weak, but vulnerability acs actually is. proves that you're really strong. Like being vulnerable is actually a very powerful thing to be.
Yes. And. It's just complicated to be a person. Yeah.
Isn't it? It's a mess. Mess, girl. But you Feels like you You're learning that lesson kind of over and over again. Yeah.
Are we all? Yes, forever. Yeah.
I'm Jane Pauley. Thank you for listening. And for more of our extended interviews, follow and listen to Sunday Morning on the free Odyssey app. or wherever you get your podcasts. Starting your own business can be intimidating.
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