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This is Moraka. What was it like to be in that boat? Sunday mornings Ben Mankiewicz found out from people who were there, among them Richard Dreyfus. What are your memories of Jaws? Are they good?
Are they good? Are they strong? They were great. You know, uh People, I turned the film down a couple of times because I was... thinking that It was going to be a bitch to shoot.
And I was not wrong, but it was such an adventure. And If you had to pick one word, to describe the shoot. It was waiting. Not waiting with a T, not waiting, waiting, waiting. And uh That meant while we were sh really shooting at the edge of the harbor.
And if you move the camera even a little bit, you saw. The harbor you saw houses and Walter Cronkite and things. And uh Stephen could not show any of that. Because you're supposed to be in the middle of the ocean. Right.
So That meant that at a certain point You're looking at the horizon. And you see Boop. Sailboat. And the sailboat. even at its fastest.
is very slow. And it moves. and you have to wait. for it to disappear. And before it disappears, You're terrified.
That Boop. Be another one. That's how it went from a 56-day shoot to a 165-day shoot.
Someone said to Stephen. How did you set out to make a film like this? And he said, it's simple. you agree to it. an inappropriately small budget and then you just shoot.
But he was a wreck. He was nervous the entire time that he was going to get fired, that he wouldn't be able to finish the movie. There were serious doubts. The studio came out and then thought, I don't know that you're going to be able to finish this movie.
Well, it was too many sale boxes. It was amazing. that he had in his corner Two guys Uh one was named Scheinberg. and the other was named Wasserman. Those two men We were advocates of Stephen and believed in his future.
And that was that. And no matter what, people might have said If you have Sid Scheinberg in your corner, That's the important thing. Yeah, the studio, Sid and Wasserman, they believed in it. Yeah, and I had to remind Stephen of that. I was The one who said, Stephen.
They're not gonna fire you. You're the beloved of But you could understand why he didn't necessarily believe that, right? I mean, he hadn't yet. He wasn't an entity yet. He wasn't Steven Spielberg.
And also, he had no credential. Right, you were I was even more unknown than he was. That's right, yes. And so Stephen would say, what do you know? What do you think Stephen saw in you?
Why do you think he cast you? I mean, like everyone else, you weren't the first choice, right? But you were the right choice. I was the first choice. I was the first choice again and again.
And I kept saying no. And then I saw just by accident. A word friend. of the apprenticeship of Doody Kravitz. Which was the first time I ever saw me Feature length and forty feet wide.
Right.
And it was you in the leading role then. Yeah. And I went totally mad. Totally crazy. and watched me be terrible.
You didn't think you were good in that. There are no words. Yeah. So then you're thinking I can't turn down this movie. I need to make ISIL.
Right.
I said if I'm not working when this film comes out, I'll never work again. And so I went back to Stephen and begged him for the part. And he gave it to me. This was on Uh April third. We start they had started shooting April 2nd.
I was cast on the third. My first day of shooting was the fourth. And That was the way it all went. Do you have moments, especially being here now? 50 years later, where you think, My God, how close I came to not making this movie.
No. You don't. No, once once I cast once I was in the movie I never looked back. I mean, you bec you were a wisp from not taking this role. I mean, if you hadn't seen Duddy Kravitz.
You're right.
So how do you uh do you don't think like how different your life would have been if you hadn't made Jaws? Yeah. But it's I truly did believe in me and my future. And if it wasn't Jaws, it was going to be something else. Let me show you this.
What do you see when you uh when you look at those three faces? What a good time we are having. We were having A total blast. I mean I first of all, I introduced myself to Robert. at the beginning of the first morning.
I went up to his trailer, knocked on the door, and when he opened the trailer door, I in one breath, I took it all in and I said, Your Claudius was the greatest Claudius I've ever seen. It defined the play. It was the most important role in the in in Hamlet. And I never saw anything. quite like that.
Because You had the authority This the charisma And He says Come in and have a drink. You've worked with some of the greatest actors to ever live. I I take it Shaw Robert Shaw's pretty high on that lesson. Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Oh yeah. And when I worked with Peter O'Toole, Uh we spent a long time talking about. Robert. And that's the best part of my life. was the opportunity to work with These people who are the greatest actors in the world.
They are the greatest actors of Shakespeare. They are brilliant at analyzing it all. As this shoot progressed, as this went from an eight-week shoot to a 10-week shoot, to a 12-week shoot, to a 14-week shoot, to a 16-week shoot. Is there ever a moment where you think we're making something great, or has it just become this long, cold slog?
Well, it wasn't it was neither It wasn't a cold slog. But it wasn't an easy peasy, you know And it was where I learned the most important word in filmmaking vocabulary was waiting. And For me, that was a huge thing to learn. And And it was also that we became the focal point of Uh the Islanders Uh affection. and then hatred.
When we first got to the island, We were. glamour personified and we came from Hollywood and It was fantastic. But just a few weeks later, it was there's a dead fish at the door of the If the world You're saying they'd had enough of Hollywood. Yeah, yeah. They.
They had enough glamour to Waste a lifetime. But do you, uh, so that's Shaw. We know how much that he meant to you. I used yesterday as you walked out, you. You kissed him.
You kissed a photo of Shaw. You you put your fingers to your lips and then put it on Shaw. Like he meant a lot to you. Oh boy. Oh boy.
He meant uh We were lying on these bunks in the bottom of the workboat. And all of a sudden he says, I know. I'll play The ghost to your hamlet. If you play the fool to my leer, Meeting later in your career. No, I said you got it, but not for 10 years.
And he said, why? I said, because you'll blow me off the stage. That's why, Robert. And he laughed and he said, have a drink. What do you uh What do you remember about Scheider?
Well, I had kind of known Roy, and I can't really remember. Why and where? But um He told me How old he really was. He told me about his wearing black. He loved to wear black.
And he told me about Gene Hackman and this and that. And we had great stories. And also, he was the one. who is having this Eternal feud. with uh Roberts people because of the billing.
You know, they were not happy. With coming out even or letting Robert Gummett getting ahead. But we were walking from the Edgartown Inn one night and he's telling me that he's just pissed that They'd have to argue about the billing. And I said, What do what do you care about this? I mean, i really it's just It's so silly.
And he went, Why are you saying this, Richard? We have the same billing problem. And I went. What? He said, you have the same problem I do.
Are you second? Are you third? Are you first? What is it? And I said, I have the same problem.
Yeah. Well We'll have more from our Sunday morning extended interview after this break. Your burger is served. And this is our finest Pepsi-Zero Sugar. Its sweet profile perfectly balances the savory notes of your burger.
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Where you think We're making one of the greatest outdoor films of all time. No. No, so you didn't when did you realize it? Yeah. First I put I I had to realize that we were obviously making a turkey and this thing was gonna crash and burn.
Because the shark didn't work and you're there forever, all this waiting, delayed. And I knew. nothing about filmmaking. Nothing.
So I of course knew everything about filmmaking. And I was on a talk show. When the film was finished shooting I was on some talk show. And I said it was gonna None of us were going to survive this experience and That Pissed off universal. I bet, sure, yeah.
That's not really what they like for promoting a film. Right, yeah. Yeah, yeah. But I didn't know that. I thought you just t talked, right?
And uh After that talk show, I saw the film. And I went back to that show on my own. No one told me to do this. And that's important. And I said I had made a fool of myself the we where I had said it was going to tank.
And that's silly because it's a great movie and like that. And of course Universal took credit. for that reversal.
So so you until you saw it. That was your first thing. It took seeing it for you to realize, oh my goodness, this is something. Absolutely. I mean, all I knew about.
making jaws was waiting. Isn't it interesting that All that stuff about The long shoot, the feeling like nobody's career is going to go anywhere after this. Any fights you have with co-stars about billing or any nonsense, like now, 50 years later. It's also silly. You all were part of the market.
Well, and also it w it was silly and I I was at least the guy that copped to it first. And And Universal said that they had told me I had to go back to that show and apologize. And I said, That is not true.
So That photo. The three of you. Robert Shaw, Roy Scheider. Richard Dreyfus. Um You're uh you're you're this is a a such a phony picture.
And I'll tell you why you can tell that is Robert. Robert is smiling like this. Yeah. And he's saying to himself, As soon as that camera turns off, I'm gonna punch Richard. And he had my number.
The thing about Robert Shaw is that he had my number and no matter What? He knew that he had me psychologically like with a little pin through my stomach. And If he said that I couldn't do twenty-five sit-ups, I couldn't. Yeah. But I could.
But I couldn't. Right.
And he would say, you can't Jump off the top of the orca into the water. And I couldn't, but I could. And I just couldn't. He had you. He had me.
Yeah. Because he was Robert Shaw. Like, you were a little bit in awe. Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Yeah. And then one day We're sitting at the top of the orca. And he's Uh got a scotch or something. And he's coming down the ladder and he says to me, Help me out, will you, Richard? And I went.
You really want me to help you out, Robert? He says, Yeah. And I took the drink and threw it into the water.
Okay. And every drinker on that True. 150 guys. They all went. Ooh.
Yeah. Yeah. And And let me tell you, when 150 guys look at you and go, ooh. you think. What do you mean, man?
What did I do? I may have played this wrong. Wow. And what Robert at that moment did was to, he looked at me, and this is Robert Shaw. Who knows how to do this?
And you know. everything that's about to happen to you. And he went Behind the camera. and took the fire hose. And the next shot.
was me at the cleats of the I'm the orca. trying desperately to unwrap The firehouse. The fire hose. And The water was coming at me. This was a single shot.
And Robert And he that thing. Yeah. hit me right in the face. And it's the only time in the entire film that I lost my sense of humor. And it was pretty rough.
And Robert was filled with glee. You know, there's going to be a screening here tonight, and if you're able to come to that screening for a second, you're going to get like a you know, an eight-minute standing ovation. Part of it is well one you're one of the seminal actors of your generation Um Second, You're here. They're not here. They're gone.
You're the you're sort of standing when you're here, when you're in Martha's Vineyard. For the 50th anniversary of Jaws, you represent not only Richard Drevis, but you're sort of here. You're Roy Scheider, you're Robert Shaw. Yeah. Exactly right.
This was the story of three guys against this shark. This was not a statement about capitalism. and it wasn't this or that. It was this human thing. And And we were Really good.
And we knew it. And we We played the human experience. We even to say it like that is Too pompous. We knew. that we were making a film about people.
And Yeah. Uh this wasn't any kind of Geological, biological, archaeological nonsense. This was. Wow. A kid getting beaten.
And if you remember the beginning of the film, you are terrified before you see the shark. Europe 10 minutes away from seeing the shark. And when you When you see Chrissy, Go Bronze. You just Mm-hmm. You just grip the seat.
And Wow. I said to John Williams, How do you think of that music? How did you do that? And he sat down at the piano and he went. I said.
Bedroom Better. Bering, Bering. That was it. And he had just done the score. Steven Soderbergh the director says that If they do that in the first four minutes of the movie.
Like you think as an audience member. My God. What are they going to do for the next hour and 55 minutes? Yeah. And that's exactly, although I didn't know enough.
to be that stupid. I I wrote a piece for uh Uh a m uh attribute to Steven Spielberg. And it was about the privilege the circumstance that allowed me to watch a boy turn into a man. And that was Stephen. And We both shared.
a kind of uh common future. We both had this uh idea that We were the uncrowned. Princes of Hollywood. Stephen was the uncrowned director. I was the uncrowned actor.
And I I I so totally believed in my own future That I I was sharing that experience with Stephen. And Stephen had already made dual. And dual was A masterpiece. How the f did he do that? And It's at 24.
Yeah. And he Really? had made something. that you thought How did he know that? How did he...
Well, first time he'd ever directed anybody. He directed Joan Crawford.
So that was kind of like having A shark. Shark experience. And uh I could just imagine what that must have been like. You don't strike me as a guy that thinks a lot about a legacy. Legacy.
But here we are 50 years later and you're holding a picture of these three guys, which You know, what do you How big a part of your legacy is, Joe's? I have no idea. Um I I don't think of it as my legacy. I don't think of it, that's not a word that comes to mind. But Mm.
Did I think I was going to be A movie star? Yes. Did I think I was going to be a great American actor? Yes. And In a sense, I was sharing that with Stephen.
The two of us knew we were going to make it.
So we we had utter calm confidence in that.
So, okay, you don't think about legacy. Where do you, when you think about your career, where does JAWS fit in? Whoa, way at the top. It's way up there. But um I didn't think of it as legacy.
Why do you think 50 years later that the movie resonates as much as it does? There are a lot of great movies. This one. Stands alone to me in in many regards. What is it that Do you think about it?
Yeah, I think about it a lot. Why is it that this film has a fifty year shelf life. That is as vivid as the first day we opened the movie. I mean it's It's amazing to me. It didn't go away.
It just stayed there. And grew tentacles and vines and And Yeah. talents were drawn to the films. And if you're living in New York and you're walking up Broadway, And you see a Serbian grandmother walking towards you. And she veers off her path.
comes up to me and says Thank you. That was the greatest compliment I ever got. Thank you. And she was She was gifting me With her thank you and the thank you of all the grandmothers all over the world. And that was for Jaws?
And that was for my early work. You know, and Jaws was it.
So you don't w do you have any answer for why? Why the tentacles keep growing? Why?
Well, I think to a certain extent it's just the The um happen stands. That Stephen of all people found such a common denominator. that could be terrifying. to every culture. There's there's very few.
things that Will do that. Fear of the ocean and fear of sharks. The fear of sharks is like. That's a very common denominator. And you know.
Sailors never learned to swim. Ever. Because they knew if they got caught in the water, they were going to get eaten. And so they didn't bother learning. Given that thought that it was the right director to make this universal fear.
describing Jaws like that ma re really suggests that Jaws is the is the greatest, most seminal horror movie. ever made.
Well, I I would think that Yes. Um I don't think he knew that. But he found himself with the most vivid and feel and full Uh Terror experience. When I told Stephen I was going to turn the film down, it was because I'd go to see this movie in a second. I don't want to make it.
God. Because what? Yeah. And I knew Stephen and I found out as the deeper we got into it that he and I had exactly the same Terror. I will never walk from the beach.
into the water.
so that the water comes up to my chest. Mm-hmm. If and when that ever happens, I'll either be dead or in a mental institution. Because the the fact that I can't see what's happening Underneath is so real to me. I can't do it.
I'm Jane Pauley. Thank you for listening. And for more of our extended interviews, follow and listen to Sunday morning on the free Odyssey app. or wherever you get your podcasts.
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