Let's talk about drama, because what's happening across the country right now?
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You were just trying to make a buck. So it's to be able to write songs that people still have them resonate with you, like H.S.A. about 50 years later on some of it.
Some of it not as long as that, but a lot of it. And being with the people you just mentioned is a huge thing. I mean, these people wrote unbelievable songs.
Where did that come from? It's amazing. And then to be, maybe not in the same breath, but in the same building anyways, with those kind of people. It's like the rock and roll hall thing because you went in there with musicians you studied coming up. Well, this is the case of songwriters you studied coming up.
It was pretty amazing. I mean, I guess, look, you've sold 48 million albums as a group. You're already in the rock and roll hall of fame. Four Grammys for the Doobie Brothers. Do awards matter?
Does recognition like this matter? I think the company that Tom was saying, to be in the company of those people you mentioned is what matters, which is really kind of almost overwhelming to think about sometimes. Because those are the people, a lot of them, we grew up listening to.
And we just, to think that you would ever be counted among them in any category would be just too much to wish for. I think you admire songwriters' songs. And that's how we learn to write songs, is by listening to other people and how they approach it. And then one day you decide to write a song.
And all of us have done that. And you do it for pure enjoyment and the challenge of putting your ideas down on paper and coming up with a melody to match it. And that's just a fun thing.
It's enjoyable. And I think there's always a dream behind that, that somebody will hear your song and go, oh, wow, way to go. But that's the whole point of this. And that's, I think, where so much of the meaning is. Things like this mark the dream coming true. Exactly. How does that strike you, that your dreams have come true?
And here's all the confirmation of that anybody could ask for. When you were writing a song, you were actually trying to say something to somebody. When you started doing that, as opposed to just writing songs to go play in a bar, you started writing songs for albums, even before albums. But when you started doing that and you were trying to say, you really ought to listen to this, because here's why.
The song that comes to mind listening to music, that's the first one I ever did that with. And that was about the Vietnam War. And that was not being happy about what was going on. And saying, if you use music instead of talking, you guys would be way better off. Because if you sat on a hill and everybody had to listen to this music, it was pretty good.
Instead of just doing what you're doing now, it's not working. So maybe if you did that, yeah, it was a little out there. But it seemed to make sense at the time. And I think as you go through the evolution of writing, you start developing on that. Maybe not always a protest song, obviously, but trying to say stuff to people. You're just trying to say stuff to yourself, in a sense, when the songs write themselves.
It's pretty magical. I want to talk about the craft of songwriting, since we're talking to some Hall of Famers here. But before I do, just one more question about this award thing. Because I think it's something a lot of people can relate to. There are so many ways you can stumble in life. And from my experience, the search for external validation is one of the most dependable ways to knock you off balance.
So how do you both avoid being tripped up by looking for external validation and enjoy it when it comes? I think if you're lucky enough to stick around and wear yourself out, doing just that until you finally give up and go, you know, I really only begun to do this because I loved sitting alone in my room, writing a song that I thought somebody might read over and turn up their car radio to. And I want to ask specifically about Walk This Road and some of what you're doing. But just if I could ask your take on this notion of what Michael just brought up, you all wrote songs just to maybe if it all worked out in your wildest dreams, you'd hear it on the radio driving down the street. And then you became rock stars.
And that brought in a whole lot of additional complications, I'm sure. So from where you're sitting now, can you relate to what Michael's talking about, about maybe the idea when you get to the stage right now simplifying when it comes to writing and go back to the roots of the craft, which is just creating and saying something? Does that resonate as a thought?
It does. I'm just speaking from my own point of view in that as you're going through those times you're talking about and going through multiple times of when you lock into something where you are writing some pretty good stuff, it's not always there, at least for me anyway. But there are times when somebody unlocks the key.
I don't care if somebody passed away and it affected you in a big way. And you might write really positive songs that you don't know how it's going to come out. But the songs start writing themselves. And that's the best songs. If you sit there and labor and labor on a song, it's probably not going to be very good. But if you do something, you just let it be what it's going to be. And you just kind of the song works.
See, I know that sounds a little out there. But I'm just saying you're a doobie after all. Last I checked. Yes.
Not using it, but at one time was. Yeah. More or less, it's just you let the song write itself by saying, if I did this chord, I did that chord. And then for me, it's always the words later.
That's the opposite of what Bernie and Elvin were talking about, which always amazed me. And then you get this to a place trackwise where you get a feeling from it. And then you start writing the lyrics. And once again, they just kind of write themselves. They're easy.
They come flowing out. So you always wrote the music first. Absolutely. Does that hold for all of you? Mostly, I think. Not always, but yeah. I don't know how they do that so well. That blows my mind. They do an incredible job.
They being Bernie Toppin and Elvin John. It seems like the reverse to me. I've always done it. And they've had unbelievable success, needless to say. And it works great. And you can give me a set of words and Elvin can just go with that. It's like the opposite of getting the chords and getting the feeling for the song going for the words. It's the other way around. But your process has always been hear a melody, hear a song, hear the music, and then write the words to follow. Is that how you?
Not always. How did you write Blackwater? Two different processes. I had the music over here and kind of going on. And then I started writing lyrics over here that I didn't really know if it was going to be that song. And then I had those lyrics and I went, hey, that works over here. So it wasn't really, I didn't write the lyric for the song. I wrote the lyrics as just ideas.
And then I realized, oh, I have this riff over here. I wonder if that will work with that. And it did. Maybe not all of it can be explained as technique. It sounds like there needs to be a little magic. Accidents happened.
Magic, a good idea. To reply to the original notion you had about stumbling. If you're afraid to stumble in writing or playing or being a musician, then you probably should find another vocation.
Because that's all we do is stumble around till we get where we want to be accidentally. A lot of things kind of fall out of the sky and hit you in the head. Just the wisdom is in the scar tissue.
Partially, yeah. It's past experiences that you're bringing out. Have you had the experience before? I think I read something once. McCartney was talking about how he woke up and the melody to some big hit like Let It Be or something was in his head. Have you had the experience of waking up in the morning with a melody in your head and you don't know where it came from and that is the beginning of a song?
I'd say that's very cool. I've never had that happen. I've had dreams of melodies and then woke up. What makes a good songwriter?
Perseverance is one. I think it's got to be one of those ingredients because it's like we were all we have all kind of hit on. It's really easy to give up or out of frustration.
Many times we've all talked about this with each other. I've wondered if I could ever write another song. I just lost that mojo or whatever that is. When you're younger and you're writing songs, I listen back to a lot of stuff that I like or not so much. But I remember when I was younger, anything I finished was like, oh, this is it.
This is great. John, you've written a bunch and as you're listening to this discussion, I'm just wondering what your thoughts are about this notion of whether it's something you can develop technique for or whether you just need that sort of magical touch of inspiration? Well, I think it's probably a little bit different formula for everybody, for every songwriter. Some people have more of the it just flows out of them maybe and other people work really, really hard and keep going.
I've heard Don Hemley is rewriting the lyric as he's singing the final lead vocal and stuff. Everybody does it a little differently. I always say the only thing harder than writing lyrics is putting words to music. Well, I do wonder, this idea you all want to be good singers. You want to be good players. You want to be good in the studio. You want to be good performing live. Is songwriting a skill that's harder than all of those?
It's a special place to be. I know this sounds ridiculous, but when you started, I started writing songs when I was 15. They were terrible, but we went down and recorded a couple. I was a kid. I didn't know anything. Playing Chuck Berry riff was a big deal, but as time went on, you started developing thoughts about by listening to other people. A lot of it by listening to other groups, other artists, and you started building on that. I think that's when you started just falling into it. You didn't think about it.
You just did it. I can remember sitting in that room in San Jose as you were talking about. I wrote a lot of songs in that room for $40 a month in the little room over there in the student ghetto. They were good. They were good songs. I mean, they may not be chart toppers, but they were good songs.
They were incredible. As time marched on, you started to add more to that whole process. Things really opened up when you could use a digital workstation and you could through MIDI play, horns, keyboards, bass, drums, all that stuff. You could develop it pretty far and then hand it to, go onto the screen and say, here's what I'm thinking. Then everybody might say, well, I got an idea for that.
As I'm listening to everybody and I'm picturing viewers watching this, you're all essentially confessing to how difficult the process is. There are more losers than winners in what you produce. I think a lot of people will feel like, hey, if these guys in the songwriting hall of fame are saying it, that's just the way the craft works. You have more Ls than Ws at the end of the day.
Absolutely. You have to write a lot of songs to find the nugget, I guess. You might feel that way about a lot of them, especially if you start developing, as Mike was talking about, demo lock is what I call it. No, we can't change it from this is great the way it is.
You haven't listened to anybody else's opinion. You can't do that to yourself or anybody else. You've got to be nimble. You've got to be willing to pivot. You've got to be able to accept, I don't know if judgment's not the right word, but somebody else's take on it. It's very beneficial a lot of times when you do that.
How hard is that? Earlier it was a problem, maybe. Not so much now. I listen a lot because, number one, you want it to get accepted so it can be used. Number two, a lot of the people you're listening to are very good at the craft and what they do. They know what they're listening to.
If the song has viability or not, they know it. I know there's a lot of challenges for everybody. Anybody who gets older, I mean, it beats the alternative, but one of the advantages may be of getting older is that you become more comfortable with ideas like listening to other people. You take critique and suggestion a little bit more easily than at earlier points in both your life and in your writing career. Do you find that?
Yes. I mean, you live and learn a lot of things, you know, and patience and listening to other people's perspectives. Hopefully you get a little better at that as you get older. It helps in almost every area of your life, you know, marriage, songwriting.
You start to actually listen to other people instead of thinking of your answer while they're talking. The songwriting thing has to be a malleable relationship because it's going to change. Music in general is kind of like that for just your physicality as you get older, your voice. You kind of have to learn to go with your strengths because some of those things you used to be able to do when you're younger just aren't there anymore, you know. So you try to navigate and renegotiate with your own voice and your own brain and your ability from your brain to translate to your hands. A lot of musicians, I remember growing up here, some of the better jazz players, they actually played some of their best stuff when they couldn't play as nimbly and quick and think as quickly in terms of theory and stuff like that. They actually started to become more thoughtful in their approach when they played and improvised. I think that's kind of true. The danger in that is if you worry too much about what you can't do anymore, you forget that the door is open to doing something different and maybe having a benefit all its own. Yeah. Okay, so this is the heavy lift of songwriting we're discussing.
I want to talk about the rewards. I know how I feel if I'm walking through an airport and I hear one of my favorite of your songs. It makes me feel happy. What I've always wondered is if you're walking through the mall and hear Blackwater or you are walking down an aisle of an airplane and you hear, listen to the music, or you hear what a fool believes, what goes through your heads when you see people who don't know that you're there listening and enjoying what you've created here and here? I'm just waiting for people to say that.
There he is in every moment of it. Nobody does. Nothing, I didn't do that.
No, that's not it. It's kind of true though because especially if somebody does give you a look like it's not you and then you try to start pretending like you don't notice that it's on there. But you always notice. Just prior to that, you were going, I wonder if anybody will know. But yeah, that was always a dream of mine. I always thought early on when I first came to California that if I ever got on an elevator and heard music playing one of my songs, I'd know I arrived. I'd know I'd made it. When you were talking about the gratification from getting Rock and Roll Hall of Fame or the Songwriter's Hall of Fame, those awards, not to denigrate that at all is fantastic. But I think for anybody here to think that one person even has a feeling something like what I feel when I hear a great Beatles song or Ray Charles or whatever, that's the biggest reward. That's really cool.
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That is one perfect combination. Burgers deserve Pepsi. When you write a song, do you know they're going to be a hit? In other words, when you wrote China Grove, do you know it was going to be huge?
No. I've only done that with one song in my life. I've had songs I felt like this could be something, but it really depends on what the record company and all has changed to does with it.
It depends on what promo is done behind it. All that has a lot to play and how well your song does radio play. What's the song you wrote that you knew was going to be huge? Been one.
Listen to music. That's been it. I knew it when I wrote it. At least I thought I knew it anyway. I was convinced. I was convinced enough to call up our new producer and say, this is a hit. It's two in the morning. He didn't want to hear this right now. I said, come on, man.
This is the thing. It's got the right words. It says something about what's going on right now. He says, call me tomorrow. He says, yeah, it's good chord structure.
And then he went back to bed. Does that mean in some vault somewhere there's a bunch of songs you thought were going to be huge that never broke through? There's a lot. I've written hundreds of songs. So yes, there's lots of songs that are just sitting somewhere.
I wish I had a couple of them back that I could take dust off and reimagine. But it's a very, I keep going back to what you said, it's a form of validation that you can't get anywhere else because you're the one that did it. And granted, especially on the earlier songs and even now, but you need everybody else's interplay to put the coloring and the feel to that song. But the initial feel of the song comes from you. And the lyrics came from you. And the feeling you had when you were writing that song came from you. That means something.
It does. Something John and Tom both said. John was saying that thought that someone might get that feeling from something you wrote that, oh, wow, I haven't heard this in a while.
God, I love that song or whatever. It's almost like when you're writing it, if it's only one person or a million people, that's not wonderful if it's so many people. We used to get paid for that. But still, if it's just one other person, that's what you're sitting there doing. That's what you're trying to do is say something that if only one other person heard it, would go, oh, I get that. There's value in that for you. Yeah, there's value in that for me. That's kind of what songwriting is all about.
It kind of doesn't matter whether it's a million people or one person. If it says something to somebody, that's all you're trying to do. You've done your job. Yeah. I think so. And I think there's something to be said for just the process. When speaking for myself, I don't write a song thinking, oh, I'm going to write a hit or, oh, boy, they're going to really like this. It's more like, hey, here I am again in my space where I feel comfortable with my instrument and I have this cool riff. And man, that's fun.
That feels cool. And then you start conceptualizing something. And that reminds me of something or someone else's song or something that happened today. And you create something. And it's that moment. It's not like I'm going to create this and everybody's going to love it or, boy, I hope they like it.
It's not that. It's that moment of just enjoyment, pure enjoyment of writing a song for yourself. Michael, walk this road.
What were you trying to articulate? Well, again, John Shanks had the idea for the title of the song. And I think originally it was kind of like, hey, you guys are doing this first album together in a long time. You've been together over the years, 50 years, and you walk this road together. You know, let's write a song about that.
And it would have been certainly a good enough idea. But as we were writing it, it just kind of naturally morphed into maybe a more generalized universal kind of idea, if you will, that basically we like a lot of our songs have kind of been, you know, the absurdity that so many of us live in one world are worlds apart of knowing each other's experience, you know, and that we basically always have to bring ourselves back together. We have to remember that we all really want the same things. And nobody wants anything that I don't want. They don't want to take anything away from me.
They just want the same things I want. Tom, in Here to Stay, you write, came so close to losing, I almost said goodbye, and I changed my way of thinking. Now everything's all right. Were you talking about anything specific? That was one of the songs I mentioned earlier. I brought the whole idea. In fact, that's always done.
I mean, at home. I brought that song in, and John and I went through it. I'd written that about Keith, the drummer I was mentioning a while ago. When I first wrote that, it had a huge impact on me. And the words were my trying to figure out how I understand the concept of somebody that you're close to passing like that.
A friend, not a parent or whatever. But what they meant in your life, what it had been like working with them on the road, in the studio, whatever. And to put that, encapsulate that into a song, we kind of left that whole thought pattern because if you're going to try and do it for a lot of people, it's probably something you should probably, where we ended up with it, I guess you'd say. So it became less about that topic and more about, oh, this would be good if you did this, and we try, what if we try this, which is what everybody always asks when they're writing songs. And we came up with that song. That's what we ended up with. The other two were written from the ground.
That one was not. Patrick, could I ask you a question about Walk This Road? I want to read one thing that you wrote. As long as we're together, it will always feel like home. What will be will be. The past has come and gone.
We don't have much, but we keep on keeping on. Well, you were talking about life and looking back. When I was thinking about it, we've all made mistakes. We all have things that we wish we'd made some different choices at times than the choices we made.
And you look back on that and you go, gosh, hopefully I learned something about what to do the next time. And I think that's probably the big lesson in life is generally learn from your mistakes. Let your past inform your present and your future. And a lot of this album, I think, reflects that maybe theme of redemption or whatever, however you want to express it, that you would hope that whatever you've done in the past, you can redeem yourself and do better this time.
And I think that is reflected in a lot of the songs. For me, we were talking about earlier, at our age, of course, we're a lot younger now than we were before, but you certainly want your life to move in a more positive direction. I suspect that that's the goal of most human beings as you live your life the next time around. And we do have many chances to make things better in our lives. And most people are always trying to do that. I believe that.
I think most human beings are looking for a better side of themselves. And I think we are, for sure. Well, as far as how I feel about being a Doobie brother, I mean, I was actually I'm still the new guy. I've only been around in the band for like 40 something years now. But I was a fan before I joined the band, so I can objectively say this is a great band. And so I feel very fortunate.
I feel like, how did I get so lucky? And it's been a great little journey musically to be part of it. What do you make of these three guys? They're songwriting. Oh, well, there's a reason for the Songwriters Hall of Fame induction. And I think, you know, I mean, as you point out, I'm a writer and I've had songs nominated for Grammys.
I've had a bunch of BMI awards and stuff. And I'm not really I'm a member of the band. I'm not included in the Songwriters Hall of Fame induction. That's how good these guys are. Which you should be, because the title track of one of our records was one of John's songs, one step closer.
Michael, to Gabe's question, to be a Doobie, what's that mean to you? Well, on a personal level, it's long friendships that I've had with these guys. From the day I started with the band, it was easy for me to kind of get the idea that everybody was pretty good people. And I was lucky to find such a great organization to work for. And I didn't know how long it was going to last at that point in time. And even before I had met Tom, I knew Tom was a good guy, just by the way everybody felt about him in the organization, from the crew to the band guys.
So it was a no brainer in a way to think that, boy, this is great. However long it lasts, it's going to be wonderful. You know, I'm really enjoying this. And then to have it unfold before me in terms of longevity with the band. Like I said, we've been friends all these years, even when I wasn't with the band. Whether any of us here were out with the band or not, we were always friends. And we had our moments.
You know, we threw furniture at each other backstage. But by the time we got on the plane the next day, it was always over. And there was never any grudges that we felt were worth holding about anything. If we disagreed on something, it was just because we all had an interest in the same thing that we loved. But for the most part, our friendships were really what was most important about it. Because that's what made the whole thing tick. It was the music we make always came from what we had in common, not what we disagreed on.
Tom? Well, getting into this business was with the Doobie Brothers. Yeah, I was banging on the door at various times in my life. But this is when it all coalesced. I mean, that's a long time ago, sitting around that table on South 12th Street in San Jose. And we didn't have two diamonds running together. But it was cohesive. And we had joy in what we were doing. It was fun to write songs, bring them down, and then I got an idea, right? So you could add something to it. And that's still going on.
That hasn't changed in a sense. And I kind of look at my life up to this point. And I kind of think of myself as being a Doobie Brother.
That's pretty much what I've done. Yeah, I've done a couple of solo albums. But that's been the running thread throughout my life has been part of this pen. Nice thread. As we all mentioned, getting on stage and being able to get people to react like that, that's unbelievable. You can't really describe that to somebody if they've never done it. It's not only a feeling of joy, but it's a sheer joy with a crowd.
And let's face it, without the crowd, you got nothing. So people that appreciate your music and the music that we've all made, this band has made, it's pretty amazing. It's a very cool thing. Yeah. Patrick?
Boy, that is a tough question, actually. You kind of take it for granted after a while. I mean, we've been doing this together for 55 years, Tommy. I've been playing together. I always wanted to be in a band.
From the time I was a little kid, I was in surf bands with my friends and stuff. But it was always transitory. It was never anything that I ever felt was going to go anywhere or last. And when we started playing together, I had a feeling that we had something special. I didn't know.
I never would have thought it would have lasted for this long. But I was really proud of what we were doing together, like from the get-go. I mean, I always thought, here's a guy that can really write a song, can really sing a song, can really play a song.
And I get to play with him. And a great drummer, bass player. I mean, we had a unit that was powerful. And we kind of made it happen from day one.
The first gig we ever played, I think the Chateau was our first real gig up in the Santa Cruz Mountains. And man, we nailed it. It was like, wow, there's some magic here. We have something going on. There's a chemistry here.
We still have to figure out, maybe write some more songs. But we have the nucleus of something special. And I was right. I felt it. And it was there. The last thing I wanted to just ask you about, you go on the Reddit page or whatever, whenever anyone's discussing the band, of course, the early doobies and the later doobies and the difference in music.
That's not what I want to get into. But it does strike me that this album is maybe a bit of a synthesis of all the different iterations of the Doobie Brothers that have come before. Fair read?
Sure. What you're getting is the people who wrote the stuff back in the day and in the middle. And they're writing now. So you're going to get, as you said, a synthesis of what's going on with the band.
It's like what we do live. We do all eras of the band. Well, it's not done on purpose, I have to say that, because who's writing the song is bringing their experiences from back when till now and wherever they are now. But it's still that same person that wrote whatever songs you want to use as an example. Because you three have written for this album, it couldn't help but to be a synthesis of all the eras of the Doobie Brothers.
Sure. Probably, yeah. We probably approached it subconsciously, if only subconsciously, with an idea of what could we bring that would be maybe more cohesive than anything we've done before. You know, I know I was thinking that way, like, you know, a chance for me to maybe write something that would be more in the wheelhouse of the band than maybe I had in the past. Back then, you know, for all kinds of reasons, I was lucky to come up with anything. And I was always amazed.
The very first song I ever did with the Doobie Brothers was the last song on earth I ever thought I'd hear the Doobie Brothers do. But the producer liked it. And he heard a demo of it. You know, that I had done at Tyran's house. He said, this could be something really different for the band, you know.
And so I thought, well, hey, who am I to say, no, I don't want to do that. But it was kind of remarkable to me that, you know, that stylistically that he would even think that that was a good idea for the Doobies. But so this record for me was like, damn it, for once, I was like, well, you know, it's like, damn it, for once, I'm going to try and write something that, you know, I think is kind of in the origins of the band, you know, the nature of the original nature of the band, which is, you know, kind of a blues, rock, R&B, you know, because, you know, one thing about the Doobies was when I joined them, people would say, oh, the band changed so much. And the band was always evolving long before I joined them. It was a pretty eclectic band. And acts in the 70s typically tried to be eclectic because album concepts had become a new thing. It wasn't no more just singles with 12 other songs, you know, related or unrelated. The album had a concept, you know, all of a sudden. So people were trying to spread their wings stylistically on one album because you had that many tracks to do that, you know. So the last word as I wrap all this beautiful conversation up is what you're talking about in terms of what your goal was writing, and I think this probably fits for everybody, cohesion, unity, not just that the world needs, but also about the Doobie Brothers, cohesion of all the different eras on one album. Yeah, and continuing to let each of us kind of express ourselves in our own way as a band. I think that's been the strength of this band in live performances.
I always thought when we played live that the audience was getting something special from us because our songs were so eclectic and so diverse in styles and things that, you know, that was a plus to me always. This could be the start of something really great. Get another name, yeah.
Run it again for another 50 years. Listen, thank you very much, gentlemen. I really appreciate you taking the time to sit here and engage in a conversation. Thank you. Thank you.
I'm Jane Pauley. Thank you for listening, and for more of our extended interviews, follow and listen to Sunday Morning on the free Audacy app or wherever you get your podcasts. Get ready to laugh until it hurts. You're gonna love this.
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The fear of being committed to one person only. Can we talk about me for a little bit? It'll get to you. With the help of Dr. Orna. You have so much inside. You could let it out. He's trying to. Couples Therapy. New episodes now streaming on the Paramount Plus with Showtime plan.
