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At your DSW store or dsw.com. I'm Jane Pauley. You've heard the name, now meet the man. Sunday morning's Tracy Smith is talking with media visionary Barry Diller about his past, present, and future.
Big picture question first. You say, in this book, you say you're not introspective. And yet, this book is incredibly introspective.
It's candid, it's heartfelt, it's juicy in parts. Did you have to force yourself to look inside? I guess I did, but it seemed all to come oddly naturally. Meaning, in other words, once I started, first of all, I thought I wouldn't be able to remember anything.
Because, god, it's 2,000 years ago. I mean, no, I mean it's 50 years ago or 60 years ago that I'm trying to remember things or even go even further to when I was a little kid. And I thought, I don't remember anything. If you ask yourself, what do you remember? Nothing. It's kind of blank.
But actually, when you start to pull the stitches, things come back that just shock you that you thought this will never, ever be, where'd this come from? I've never really thought about being introspective as such. I mean, in other words, I don't sit around and go, all right, what's the meaning of this?
Or what's the under? And people ask me, what's the text? And I say, leave me alone. I don't do text.
It's the surface. But when you're talking about, I wanted to tell the truth. And so, since that was my motive, so to speak, meaning I thought, I know it's a good story in just pure narrative terms. I have experience with stories.
So I don't know. This is a good story, good tale. So can I tell it? But more than even saying, can I tell it was, can I tell it truth? And I said, can I tell it true? And that was the thing that, if anything, was my guardrail guidepost. It was that. And so when you're doing that, when you're saying, OK, what's true?
It kind of, maybe naturally, I don't know what the alchemy of it is. But it does get you to deal with stuff you never thought you'd dealt with before or explained before to yourself. Yeah. It's like you're figuring yourself out as you're telling the stories. As you go.
As you're typing away. You said in the preface, when I was young, I was far too afraid. Yes. I'm no longer that, and I'm too old to care.
Yes. Afraid of what? Well, you mean when I was growing up?
Yeah. What was I afraid of? Or not growing up or in the earlier parts of my life. I was afraid of secrets being revealed. I was afraid of, that I thought I didn't qualify. And so almost anything could set me off of being just, I think, just afraid of revealing myself. You talk about this, and I'm jumping ahead a little bit, but you say that through your life, your sexuality was like this anvil on a wire hanging over your head. Yes, because I was afraid.
Listen, this is in the 60s and 70s. And I thought, probably, well, I think probably, probably I was being realistic that, first of all, my sexuality was confused. And I thought, well, if I reveal it, what am I actually going to reveal?
And I didn't think I was a poster boy for anything. And so I thought it was dangerous. And so I kind of, silly way to phrase anything, I organized my life so that I felt protected and that I didn't want to risk what a lot of other people risked, even at that time. I mean, talking about homosexuality, talking about vice, whatever sexuality is, was something that scared the hell out of me.
Well, you know what? Let's go back first and talk about your growing up, because I think that plays into this. And then we'll get back to your choice to keep your personal life personal. But growing up, what was your relationship with your parents like? Well, I mean, I have relationships with my parents who are very nice people, but they had no clue about children. It was not, it was in, it was like from their grandparents to their parents to me was a steady line of dysfunction. It just, they were clueless. And they were living their lives. It wasn't that they were selfish. It was really they, I really did think I was raised in a kind of very plush forest. A plush forest?
Is that what you said? They never asked you about your personal, like they never asked you personal questions? My parents, I know how shockingly crazy, well, this is crazy, I guess, but so dysfunctional it is. But my parents never asked me anything. They did not ask me essentially, now talking little kid stuff in school, my friends' parents, they had report cards and they pored over them or chastised their children for this or discipline or whatever. It was benign.
It wasn't destructive in the sense of being harsh or whatever. It's just they did not, they did not, it's not that they were vacant, but the relationship was relatively formal in that we did not discuss things. All my stuff was being around my friends and their families, which were all very lively discussions and very intense involvement. And my friends had chores and they had responsibilities. I had no chores and I had no responsibilities. And again, it wasn't by any means a harsh atmosphere, but it was vacant in terms of that. And so, no, my parents never asked me any questions ever, ever in my life, actually. Nothing like, what do you think about that?
Where are you going to go to school or where do you want to do this or where do you want to do that? Perfectly pleasant, but perfectly dysfunctional. Not very deep. No, there was no actual depth there. But there was nothing evil or harsh or, and the environment I grew up in, because I grew up in this Beverly Hills community, just a little small town, basically. This is what it is of, I don't know, Beverly Hills was like 20,000 people. I think it's still about that. I don't think it's growing.
It can't grow in size because there are borders. And so it was a kind of isolated environment in the sense that you didn't really go outside the borders of this little town up until you were, let's say, beyond riding your bicycle or going with your parents or whatever or friends, parents, stuff like that in cars. So that was isolating. And then my house that I grew up in was isolated.
So that was the brew. Wow. And meanwhile, you said from age eight, you knew, but you didn't know. Yeah, I think that's, I don't really know enough here.
I'm not great, so to speak, student of this. But I think that's true for a lot of people. Now at a certain point, you do know. But for sure, I did and I didn't.
And that went on for years. Where it's maybe I'm attracted to boys. I can't figure it out.
You can't. And I didn't want to figure it out. Basically, I think the healthy part of me said, let it go. Don't crimp it or don't really question it. The thing of know and didn't know is really just actually just nerve endings, day nerve endings. It wasn't a depth of inquiry. And I decided, a healthy part of me decided, just don't do anything.
It'll tell you. And at age 16, you had your first sexual encounter. Did you tell your friends? Did you tell anybody about it?
Of course not. I didn't tell myself. I mean, I thought, oh, what did I think? I thought, oh, I did that. I don't have to do it again. I really actually, actually, I know consciously and remember absolutely thinking, oh, OK, I did that.
Done. It was OK. Really? I did this thing with a guy, but that's the end of it. Yeah, I don't need to do that again. And then a month later, I did.
Did it again. And then I knew. But you didn't think at any point then, I'm going to tell anybody. Oh, no. No, no, no.
These are, again, at this time, these are real. It was necessary. It's necessary to be a big secret. It was necessary. Yeah, it was necessary.
For your? I thought for survival. Yeah. Again, a different period. I don't know what would happen today.
I have no clue, of course. I only have my own experience. But at that time, at that time, I really did think that this, first of all, what I read about homosexuality was that it was a mental disease. You looked it up in the library. I read the healthy part of me at 11 or 12 years old or 13. I go to the library. Got on my bike. And I rode down to the Beverly Hills Public Library. And I looked for books on homosexuality.
And everything I read was horrible. And I got on my bike. And I rode home and thought, I'm a condemned person.
I mean, for a little kid, that's not great. No. So there's this whole side of you that feels like, I mean, you said, like, I don't deserve things. I'm condemned. And yet there's another side of you that is finding its way.
Well, I'm lucky because I had healthy biology, I guess. So yeah, I found a way to navigate. We'll have more from our Sunday morning extended interview after this break. And I'll see you in the next one. So let's talk about how you started to navigate in the business world.
You land at William Morris in the mailroom. I'm sure of that navigation than the other. Well, which makes sense that you're still struggling with your personal life and what's going on there. And we should talk about this because you became fearless in business. And do you think that was- Well, I think if you have a very big fear about something, it doesn't leave much room for other fears. So in a way, and I do think this, I think all the things that affected me, and this is really in a way, like, I don't know about overstatement or not, many of the things that affected me as a child, many of the things that were dysfunctional or that were difficulty, so to speak, or things that I had to navigate around or things that I had to adapt myself to, those things really were tools that in business and in pro-life were advantages. I learned to please people. I learned that since I couldn't assert self, I could though please people enough that that pleasing of them would give me advantages. I could sublimate myself in situations that other people who did not have these anvils or whatever hanging over whatever by thin or thick wire would be able to handle my- they would be able to assert themselves where I had to find a circuitous route. But at the earliest stages of a career, that's an enormous advantage. So I wouldn't say I used what I had.
What I would say is that a lot of the dysfunctions and all the stuff of growing up gave me certain advantages, particularly early in my career, to actually succeed. William Morris. All these other young kids want to be agents, and so they're going in that direction.
And I'm saying, no chance. I can't be an agent because I don't have any self. I can't represent other people because I don't- I don't- I can't assert myself in that way. But by the way, also, I wasn't- I really wasn't interested in doing that. I was interested in the entertainment business. I wasn't interested in hustling myself to represent others to further quote a career.
I was interested, actually, since I never did any homework when I was in school, like formal school. But when I got to William Morris and I was able to read their library, I thought, my God, I just want to devour every inch of this. It was pulling me.
I wasn't pulling it. And that was- And you spent, what, three years reading the files at William Morris? I read the file. A to Z.
Every inch of it. What it's like, even if you could conceive of what would be a better preparation for understanding the business you were fascinated with than literally reading the careers of everybody in the entertainment business from the beginning of their careers through sometimes the end of their careers. What a frigging advantage. So at the same time, you're getting known for your business sense and all of these great achievements. And you've made a decision. I'm going to keep my personal life personal, private.
I'm not going to talk about it. What I did was I said, I got to have rules. I got to have rules that I can live with and that seem appropriate. I wouldn't use the word honorable.
That's too high a claim. They just were things that I felt I could only navigate if I had these kind of rules of my road, which was I would not pose. I would not try and be something that I wasn't. I would not ask or tell. I would never do anything to- well, I said it earlier about posing, which was probably the most important thing, which is if you are in the situation that I was in at that time, which was I had this secret. I didn't want to talk about my sexuality, but I also didn't want to make anyone think I was something that I wasn't. And that was incredibly important to me.
That was like a core code, so to speak. So I just made these rules literally. I think I did this when I was 19 or 20 or 21. And I thought- I didn't think anything. I thought, these are my rules, and it'll be what it'll be. That must have been difficult. No. No? No, no, no. It was actually wonderful because it gave me a way to function where I said, I will do this and I won't do that.
And I won't do that. You had a clear path. I had a clear understanding of how far I would go with my personal life and my emerging business life. And I thought that I needed to know- I needed to decide what I would and I wouldn't do. And it was liberating for me to do that. You write in the book that looking back on it, you think perhaps it was wrong.
Let me phrase this another way. I think you said, I felt at the time I didn't owe the world an explanation of my personal life. No, I wouldn't say that I didn't think I owed. I wasn't going to think of an obligation.
I thought in order- it was in order for me to function, I thought I saw too many examples of people actually posing their way through their lives. And I did not want to do that. I thought if I have to do that, I just thought I don't want to do that. And so my alternative was to say, well, I won't.
I won't do that. And whatever those consequences are, I'll take those consequences. And deciding on those rules, so to speak, gave me a kind of protection. Were there consequences?
Yeah, probably there were. Although, you know, it's in a way the title of this book, which is not just a question of who knew, it's also who knew. And as I'm in my 20s and 30s, I presumed everybody knew about my life. It's just I wasn't a participant in their knowing. And it was okay with me, even though I thought, well, I don't want to talk about it. Even though I knew that, quote, they knew, I made this scramble in my brain to keep it separate. It allowed me to survive. You think so?
Oh, yeah. What do you think would have happened otherwise? Well, the thing is it's not what would have happened. It's the fear of what would have happened. And you know, there's certainly, at that time, there's certainly evidence of it during the 60s and 70s, these formative periods of my life, after high school, let's say. There were really quite harsh consequences, though it's mostly, it is probably mostly in your mind.
I get that, though. Whether it's in your mind or not, the monster is still there, the anvil of the head. The anvil, yes.
I know it's a little theatrical, but then I am theatrical. But I did absolutely, my little bubble above my head was there's an anvil, and it's there, and it can come crashing down on you at any time. Listen, that is for an adolescent, for almost anybody, to have that in your mind, and I share that with an awful lot of people then, and certainly now, that is still there for adolescents as their sexuality is emerging. And they want to be one of the tribe and act like the tribe, even though they know they're not of that tribe. The pressure, even today, is really, is almost oppressive during a time of adolescence when everything is kind of flowing out of you, and your exuberance, ups and downs are so wondrous in a way.
Great fun and great all sorts of tumult around it, but if you're in this situation where your sexuality is either confusing or is alternative, then your adolescence is almost completely robbed, pulled away from you. That's quite a cruelty to a child. Yeah, that's true. And you're right, it still is an issue. Of course it is.
It always will be. In those early years at Paramount, while you're getting your footing there, you met Diane von Furstenberg. Here we go. And it's interesting because you didn't click with her at first, but then when the two of you clicked, you clicked. Yeah, it was a French phrase, coup de foudre, meaning it was inexplicable to both of us, I think.
And there's this scene from West Side Story when they're at the dance, and they're all dancing, and then slowly the camera and the lights shine on Tony and Maria, and they look at each other. And whatever happens, whatever that weird chemistry or whatever it is, divine something, that's going overboard, but then I am theatrical. But yeah, the first time I met her, I never wanted to see her again because she was dismissive of me and whatever. But then the second time that we met, which was a few months later, within minutes. And it was just such pure desire.
And it was a steamy romance. Yes. Oh, yes.
It was those things. Yes. You talk about how for years you've read that you and Diane are best friends, and that's not entirely accurate. No, of course not.
Listen, people who think they know about my history, people that they think this or that they think that, or with Dionne's history, Dionne's history, they think what they think. But of course, are we friends? I mean, yes. I mean, anybody who's in any relationship with anyone, there are aspects of friendship and companionship and whatever, whatever.
But to describe us as friends, it's insulting because of what it presumes. And yet, OK, we know. And you make it clear.
I mean, I'll just put it out there. Your relationship with Diane is not just platonic. No. No, it didn't start that. No, no, no. No. You're lovers.
Yes. You call your relationship with her the bedrock of your life. What does she mean to you?
Well, I don't know any better description than bedrock. I mean, I don't know where I can go with that. She is my family.
It's so dramatic and whatever. But we are together in the most wonderful ways. And when we are just together, we have very full lives, each of us. And we also have our own family. And we have friends. And we have all of that. But the best times for us are when it's just us.
And after almost 50 years, how lucky do you get? You touch on this in the book, this feeling that maybe I should have come out earlier. I don't know. I don't know that phrase. Yeah, we don't have to use that phrase. But you do touch on these feelings of maybe I was wrong. No, I don't know that I was wrong about not talking about my private life. I think I was a coward. And I don't like that.
But that is the truth. I was. I did not have, and I wish I did, I did not have the courage at that time to make declarations. Also, I was confused about the declarations. And I thought, well, I'm really being truthful.
I'm not a poster boy because for many reasons. And so I thought, well, I thought I would have liked to have had the courage at that time because in truth, who knows what would have happened? And would it have freed me as it has for so many people who've been able to do that with increasing ease as the decades have gone on?
It is probably yes. But at that time, I didn't. And I regret it.
Even though, yes, in certain aspects, it could be a, quote, role model. And that might have been beneficial. I didn't have the guts to do it. Does that weigh on you? Not enormously, but yes, if I, well, I wouldn't call it weighing on me, but it is something that of course I've thought.
But it didn't turn out so terribly. I'm Jane Pauley. Thank you for listening. And for more of our extended interviews, follow and listen to Sunday Morning on the free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. of all e-commerce in the U S Shopify has your back with hundreds of ready to use templates. You can launch a beautiful professional online store that looks and feels like you need content. Shopify's AI tools can help you buy product descriptions, headlines, even enhance your product. Photos want to grow your reach, easily create email and social media campaigns to meet your audience wherever they're scrolling and which Shopify is world-class support. You'll have expert help for everything. Turn your big business idea into with Shopify on your side, sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at Shopify.com slash Odyssey podcast.
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