Extended Interview: "Oh, Mary!" Tony Nominee Cole Escola

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And its star and creator, Cola Scola, tells Sunday Morning's Mo Rocca all about it. The play follows Mary Todd Lincoln in the weeks leading up to her husband's assassination. And this is not a Mary Todd Lincoln we would have learned about in high school. I don't know where you went.

I don't know where you went. Yeah. No, this is my interpretation of what happened, what really happened. You've said that this is basically your story.

What do you mean? I mean, it's about someone who has a dream. It's about all the characters have dreams that no one around them understands. And every character has a passion that is deeply embarrassing to them. So this Mary Todd Lincoln is an aspiring cabaret star.

Yeah, a former cabaret performer aspiring to get back into cabaret. Meanwhile, her husband is just wrapping up the Civil War. And so he's more concerned with keeping the country together. He's very unpopular at this point, which I believe is actually true from history. The South hated him. Half the North did hate him as well. And when he mentions the South, Mary says...

The South of what? Yeah. Because she's focused. She's focused. She's got a goal. She's got a goal. She's got a passion.

And I glibly say that I did no research for this. And that's just sort of my talk show anecdote. But I was inspired by stuff that I read about her. She would come to New York to go on shopping sprees. And the nation was furious with her because they were in the middle of a war. And she was coming to New York, spending all this money on furniture and clothing to redecorate. And I just really related to that. That kind of mania?

Yeah, partly mania. But also, what was she supposed to do? Just stay in the house. No, no, no. You need to act like you're deeply serious.

I don't know. Just stay in this cage and act the part of First Lady. Or go to New York and run up the credit card debt just buying stuff. Almost as if there was something more honest about that? Yeah. I mean, how did we all cope during quarantine? Ordering stuff online, running up credit card bills to get some sort of TikTok foot massager that everyone was raving about for seven seconds. Yeah. But that's interesting that that little kernel of information, those shopping sprees, that kind of, some would say, extreme behavior you found compelling. Yeah, yeah.

As also a recovering addict, alcoholic myself, those sort of coping mechanisms are so relatable. Right. Yeah. And so you're not joking when you say this is really your story.

No, no. I mean it. Like all of the things that she feels are all things that I still feel or have felt. And, you know, all of the characters are different parts of me.

I think that's true for any writer. Those things have to come from somewhere and they're not just pulled from thin air. I mean, she has a quest here.

She has a quest. Right? Yeah.

Cabaret. Right. And is that something you can relate to? This idea that quest, that drive? Yeah.

Yeah. I think I'm a little more self-conscious and afraid of admitting my, I mean, even the way that I've been talking about, like, well, I'm not really an actor. It's like, well, meanwhile, you're acting on Broadway, Cole, so what is this? Like, no, it's shrinking violet, sort of like, no, I'm not really, I don't really act, you know? Meanwhile, I care so much. I care so deeply.

I'm, on my days off, I'm watching interviews of Zoe Caldwell and Marion Saldis and, you know, like writing things down and then sitting down with you being like, well, I don't really act. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's because the show in many parts is broad.

It's outrageous. Yes. But you don't get laughs like that unless the timing is precise. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We really have to stay on top of timing and just keeping the show tight. And I check the stage manager's report every night and see, you know, how long was the show and like, okay, was the audience reaction, did that really justify this extra minute that we've added on and, yeah. And for those who don't understand, a show of this length, I think it's about an hour and 80. It's like 80 minutes, 85-ish, but more closer.

It should be 82. And this is not just silly talk here. That really matters.

It really matters. Yeah. And, you know, like, of course, there's if the audience is particularly responsive, you have to wait for some of those laughs to crest. And so that does add a little time.

But like, you know, I can tell when it's when the time doesn't match the audience response. So when did you come up with the idea? In 2009, I sent an email to myself that said, what if Abraham Lincoln's assassination wasn't such a bad thing for Mary Todd? But then I think at that point, the idea was more like sort of a Nancy Meyers, sort of like my second chapter. You know, like Mary starting over, like now I'm single, I can date, you know.

But then... The really great furniture. Right. The great furniture. Yes.

Beige, beige, beige, beige. Like, I loved this idea so much. I didn't want it to get on paper and for it to disappoint me, to disappoint me, not just the audience, but like me. Yeah. Which I think a lot of writers can relate to.

Like, there are certain ideas that you're just like, oh, I don't want to plant this seed because what if it's an ugly flower? Yeah. So this is not a revival. It's an original play. It's not based on a movie.

It has no Hollywood stars. It is breaking... Please speak for yourself. Please. It's breaking box office records. What does that say? It says that inflation is high. That's all it says. And that ticket prices are outrageous.

And that ticket prices are outrageous. I think, I don't know. I'm always like, well, when you account for inflation, are we really breaking box office records? You know, like, I don't know. But the point is it's a hit. But the point is it's... It's a big hit. And I don't know, I don't want to lead you anywhere, but just to say something about being... It's the word uncompromising or I don't know, being true to your vision and not, you know, I want to use this line.

It's a crowd pleaser, but there's nothing crowdsourced about it. Right? Who said that? I'm saying it. You're saying it.

I want to jam it into the piece somehow. Write that down. I already have. You don't come to see the show and go, oh, there were layers and layers of development people that were saying, no, you've got to tweak it for this audience and do this for that audience.

No. And I like, yeah, there is something special about the fact that I wrote this, like I said, just for me and my friends and for my audience that I've had in downtown venues and stuff. And the fact that it's successful is, I don't know, it makes it that much sweeter.

It really does. But we, you know, it could have gone the other way. Like, you know, it could have been, it could have tanked. And then we would be having the conversation of like, well, you've got to compromise a little bit.

And, you know, it's just there's no accounting for taste. Right. Right. Yeah.

There was never a time where you thought, I need to be more like this person to make people respond to me. No. I mean, because if it has to be funny to me, it would be like trying to speak German when I don't actually know any German.

You know, like, it has to make me laugh in order for it to even have a chance of making someone else laugh. Right. Yeah.

Because the audience can snip out. Yeah. Probably.

They've got good noses. Right. Yeah. Right.

So you've always been that way. I think so. Yeah. Yeah. We'll have more from our Sunday morning extended interview after this break.

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Go to Shopify dot com slash Odyssey podcast Shopify dot com slash Odyssey podcast. Where did you grow up? Rural Oregon. Klatskine, Oregon. Birthplace of.

Give me. Wait, wait. Ray Bolger. No. Ray Bradbury. Closer.

Okay. Ray. Walston. Rame.

Wait, it's. Oregon. Rural.

Dark. Alcoholic. Alcoholic or bucolic? Alcoholic.

And bucolic. So an alcoholic rural Oregonian. Yes. Ray. Writer. Ray.

Oh god, this is so embarrassing. Ray. It's not Ray Bradbury, it's Ray. What's the first letter? Raymond Carver.

Raymond Carver, right. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Who I actually, I actually see a lot of similarities in us. Are you serious? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

How so? Just, I mean, alcoholism and the sort of, just the sort of dark confusion over and, and rejection of, of conventions. I don't know. Yeah, I just, I do feel a spiritual sort of connection.

And what kind of town is it or was it? It, it's gone now. I'm kidding. Oh my god.

They're going to come after me. It it's, it's about like 1800 people. It's in the middle of the woods, basically.

It's the, if you've ever gone from Portland to the coast, you've probably stopped for gas there. Gray, rainy, home. And is it true that your family lived in a trailer? Yeah.

Okay. From what? No, that I'm afraid is a lie that I. An embellishment.

MGM put out to build my story. No, I, yeah, we, when I was maybe five years old, my father chased us out of the home with a, a shotgun. He was having some sort of alcoholic manic break and thought that there were people after him.

And so he chased my mother, my brother and I out of the trailer and then we moved out and didn't come back. And at that point, did you start spending a lot more time with your grandmother? Yes. Yeah. We moved in with my grandmother and you know, it's that weird like childhood thing of like at the time I was like, Oh yay, we get to go live at grandma's house. So then her and I shared a bedroom.

And I remember that's when she taught me to read. And that's a big deal. Yeah. Yeah. Right.

Yeah. And I loved, she had Alzheimer's and she was in the beginning stages of, of, of Alzheimer's. So she would repeat stories a lot.

And but I loved them. I loved her stories. And I realize now that we were, when she would tell these stories, we were like meeting in the middle of, of, of her memory. Like she was living out the fantasy of her childhood. And I was also living out my fantasy of being a young girl on a farm in Alberta.

And so, I don't know, I, I, it's. And you didn't mind that she was repeating the story. No, no, it was like, I loved it. And because she would remember certain details in a new telling or like leave something out. And then I got to be like, you know, and you were wearing a dress, right, grandma.

And yeah. And is it right that she gave, she gave you a Barbie when you were five? Yeah, she gave me my first Barbie. She was very, maybe it was a symptom of her dementia. But, but just completely took me at, at face value. There was nothing like when I was doing something that wasn't like, not what boys were supposed to do. You saw some apprehension. Apprehension or concern or like, you know, looking around to make sure, you know, no one was looking, but she just accepted at face value.

Yeah. When I was 11 years old, I got my, booked my first professional acting job in Grapes of Wrath at Longview Stageworks. And I played Winfield Joad. I had two lines, hello and ma look over there.

And God, my voice rang out. Did you project like that as a kid? I think I'm sure I did. I'm sure I did. And I also was really proud. I came up with this one bit.

The family is saying grace and one day I, you know, like opened one eye and snuck a piece of food off of my plate. Coming up with some comic stage business. Business. That's right. Yeah.

I love that. But it was in a town that was like 30 miles away from my home. And like during tech week, you know, late nights, my mom couldn't come pick me up. So I stayed at my grandmother's nursing home with her. And that was so odd. I wonder now like what the rest of the cast of adults thought, like they would give me rides after. And I wonder what they thought dropping me off at a nursing home. Right, right. And I know one of them was buying you meals. Yeah, the woman that played Rosa Sharon, her name was Susan. Oh, God.

Everyone's crying in interviews nowadays. I think we all just want to feel something. But she, yeah, she bought me food every day. And at the time I didn't think anything of it. I thought, you know, well, I'm the star of the show.

Of course, she's buying me food. Yeah, like I was just so taken care of by all these actresses, teachers, all these people growing up that, you know, I look back and I'm like, I was like Mr. Magoo, you know, like all these people just sort of like pushing me on to the right path, like taking care of me and yeah. I have a question.

For those who don't understand and want to understand, would you explain why you use they, them pronouns? I have always felt not male, not female. And, you know, it's funny because there are recently I saw like photos of me on Instagram for like I can't remember if it was Vogue or GQ or one of these other publications. But the comments were like, you know, like what is that? Like that's not a man.

Well, it sure as hell ain't a woman either. And I was like, exactly. Like you do get it, but it's not about getting it. It's about power over like wanting to hurt me for not fitting into, I don't know, the boxes they have to be in. You know, I sort of, I just sort of bristle when I read him in print or like young man or boy or whatever in reference to myself.

It just sort of takes me a second to like be like, oh, me, that's me. But, you know, now that they, them pronouns are more of a thing. More in usage.

More in usage. I was like that fits me more. That feels more in line with how I see myself. You know, I'm not someone who's like angry when people get it wrong.

I certainly understand when people do feel hurt by that. For me, it's more of a clarification than an identity. I sort of see myself outside of gender, really. And so I don't feel like militant about, you know, the proper pronouns. But I'm also afraid of getting it wrong being like a spokesperson for other people. You know, I can't speak for everyone and I do get afraid of speaking about my experience with gender and, you know, using they, them pronouns and somehow misrepresenting how other people feel. This is your experience. This is my story and my life and I'm going to let it the way I want.

It's more like, oh, that's an option. I'm going to use that one. Thank you. So after you moved to New York, you had some pretty lean years. I mean, you were dressing up as Clifford the Red Dog. Yes. At one point. Was that right?

For fun. No, I worked at the Scholastic Bookstore in Soho. I played Clifford the Big Red Dog at children's birthday parties and I was a cashier. And then I was mugged and beaten twice in one month, the second time at gunpoint. And then the second time was really very serious.

Oh, very, very serious. One guy, you know, they knocked me to the ground and one guy held a gun to my head while the other guy, like, kicked my teeth in to the point that they were loose and I had to go to the hospital. And I didn't really know anyone in New York at that point.

I had, like, two friends who I was, you know, vaguely close with. It was a really bad time. So I left New York. You went back to Oregon. Went back to Oregon.

I lived on my mother's couch long enough to see Jane Seymour on Dancing with the Stars. Did she win? I don't think so.

Okay. But I know her mother died and she, and the show went on and she did, was it a foxtrot or a waltz in her honor? I think it was a, I don't know. It wasn't a pasa doblite.

I don't think it was a pasa doblite. Well, you have fact checkers. Well, you have the fact checkers. Okay, please, a ticker at the bottom.

I was going to go back to community college there. But actually, I stepped on you right there. That's a serious thought, but you mean that. Like, that Jane Seymour went on even though her mother had died.

Yes. Could you continue that thought? I just remember that was one of the things that I was watching at the time. I was obviously, like, in shock and going through a lot.

And that's all I really remember is watching. Oh, so it wasn't like you were inspired by that. No, no, no, no. I'm so sorry. We're not going to use that.

Oh, yeah, don't use that. Oh, my God, if she can waltz, I can get back to New York. Jane, oh, my God, she's here. Yeah, you flew her in because you knew this story. I'm going back a little bit more on time because I missed one thing I wanted to get to, which is when you were a kid in Oregon, did Broadway seem like another planet?

Yeah, it was never even a possibility. Like, yeah, you might as well have said the moon. And the moon was at least I could see at night, you know. It's so rare that I get to ask this on CBS Sunday Morning, but you've been described as a demon twink.

What is that? You interviewed Mitzi Gaynor. I did. Yeah. Well, okay. You didn't ask her about being a demon twink? Right.

I should have, and it's too low down. But what is a demon twink, and do you accept the charge? That is for the critics to decide and for the Tony voters to decide. Whether or not I'm a demon twink, you know, that's not a label one can give oneself. Right. And, you know, usually I would end this interview asking, what's next for Cola Scola, but instead I'm going to ask you, who's the next first lady you're going to play? Oh, my God.

I think the next thing that I do will have to be so different from this. But if I was forced, if it was like you have to choose from these first ladies, was it Buchanan's first lady that was his niece? Harriet Lane Buchanan was his niece. Yes. Right, because he was our only bachelor president. Right.

Confirmed the bachelor president. And I've been to his house. You have? Oh, yeah. Oh, sure, Fire Island. That's his summer house. His regular house is Wheatland, it's in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, and he has an outhouse with five holes.

I'm telling you, it's completely true. This place is, but it's a nice house. But, I mean, that's fascinating to me, like first niece. Yeah. You know, there's sort of an Emily in Paris quality. That doesn't sound like a play to me.

It's more of like a mini-series, like... Harriet Lane Buchanan in London? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I helped give you that idea. Did you?

It's on tape. ****. Okay. This is it.

It's not home, but it's much. Yeah. Did you design this? No, Amy Sedaris decorated this.

Oh, careful. Amy Sedaris and Liz Wolf, who owns Cure Thrift Shop, decorated this whole thing. Like, I said I wanted like a 30s actress dressing room. It feels like something you could picture Glynis Johns in. And Amy was really disappointed because she wanted to do... She wanted to make it a sick room, like a hospital bed. Yeah. Does this look anything like the dressing rooms in theaters depicted in those early Hollywood movies you would watch growing up? This feels like something I could see a, you know, Ginger Rogers character or a Ruby Keeler, whatever, except for this Amy Sedaris touch.

My inspiration here, my Marie Dressler memoir. Oh. Billy Burke. Yeah.

So Marie Dressler, Billy Burke, these were big stars at one point. Big. Big stars. Yeah.

So this isn't just a goof. Like, you really... No. I love them. I've read these books. There's this section in here about her first time on Broadway. I pinch myself black and blue, but I cannot make myself believe it is my name up there in letters of fire.

Maybe the miracle is real, but it's too hard to credit. Marie Dressler, a great gawk of a nobody from the sticks, a star on the street of stars. That is a great line. Yeah.

I just love that line. Yeah. Marie Dressler, a great gawk. Of a nobody.

Of a gawk of a nobody. Yeah. Oh, my God. I love that. I want that in the piece. Yeah.

I'm Jane Pauley. Thank you for listening, and for more of our extended interviews, follow and listen to Sunday Morning on the free Odyssey app, or wherever you get your podcasts. Bye. Bye. Bye.