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Carolina Journal Radio No. 839: Compromise opens door for more craft-beer growth

Carolina Journal Radio / Donna Martinez and Mitch Kokai
The Truth Network Radio
June 17, 2019 9:00 am

Carolina Journal Radio No. 839: Compromise opens door for more craft-beer growth

Carolina Journal Radio / Donna Martinez and Mitch Kokai

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June 17, 2019 9:00 am

As Gov. Roy Cooper signed into law a compromise between craft brewers and N.C. beer distributors, several other proposed alcohol reforms remain in play within the General Assembly. Rick Henderson, Carolina Journal editor-in-chief, analyzes the prospects for additional reforms during this legislative session. As Medicaid expansion continues to play a major role in this year’s legislative debates, State Auditor Beth Wood is drawing attention to disturbing findings her auditors have issued in connection with North Carolina’s existing multibillion-dollar Medicaid program. Wood explains why she is raising questions about management of existing Medicaid dollars. North Carolina’s craft brewers and the state’s beer distributors have reached a compromise to end a lawsuit involving state restrictions on brewers’ ability to expand their businesses. You’ll hear highlights from the state Senate’s debate of the measure. Advocates from across the political spectrum have endorsed the Second Chance Act. It’s a measure designed to expand opportunities for expunctions that clear crimes from a person’s criminal record. You’ll learn why the idea is winning support from both progressive and conservative groups. Supporters touted Common Core as a way to boost standards in public schools across the country. But recent research suggests Common Core has had a negative impact on student achievement. Terry Stoops, John Locke Foundation vice president for research and director of education studies, analyzes the findings. Stoops also discusses the implications for North Carolina.

The Christian Perspective
Chris Hughes
Family Policy Matters
NC Family Policy

From Cherokee to current attack from the largest city to the smallest towns in the statehouse into the schoolhouse Carolina Journal radio your weekly news magazine discussing North Carolina's most of public policy events and issues welcome Carolina Journal radio what Michiko got during the next hour, Donna Martinez and I will explore some major issues affecting our state Medicaid expansion continues to dominate much of the discussion within the North Carolina Gen. assembly, but state auditor Beth Wood is focusing attention on problems within the existing Medicaid program advocates from across the political spectrum are endorsing the second chance act deals with criminal expunction's common core was supposed to help improve public school instruction, but recent research suggests common core is hurting student achievement craft brewers and beer distributors have reached a compromise involving state rules restricting the Brewers freedom. You'll hear highlights from state Senate debate of the measure.

Speaking of crap freedom.

Donna Martinez joins us now with more on that issue.

She asked the Carolina Journal headline the craft beer brewing business is growing in North Carolina and the industry just got a boost from the Gen. assembly and Gov. Roy Cooper.

It's a boost that will give brewers more freedom over how they market and sell their beers. But despite the progress there's still other changes that might be coming Carolina Journal has been covering this story for months now Rick Henderson is editor-in-chief of Carolina Journal he joins us now with the very latest Rick welcome back to the shell that you saw the first of all its incredible photograph that it is truly bipartisan. Gov. Roy Cooper, a Democrat, you had Republican leaders from the Gen. assembly it tell us how they managed to agree will largely this is underway for about 15 years to try to loosen some of the restrictions on distribution of beers by bus horse that and what really thought of this law was a loss not later but nonetheless this was this was a long-standing effort by small brewers and family-owned businesses who wanted to grow larger and who saw their ability to do so limited by the three-tiered system state alcohol process which which you have producers you have distributors and resellers and in the case of North Carolina. There was a very hard Placed on the Brewers to how much they could brew before they had to go to a middleman distributor to then sell their beer and brewers that were growing to that Limit wanted to grow more, but were able to because of the Letter that we can give us of the details that tell us about the change that has now taken place in the law so that some of those mid-level brewers have more freedom to make decisions and to control what happens with the product right the early Of 25,000 barrels a year existed before this law was signed. Bruce 25,000 barrels of beer and distribute all that yourself about having to go through middleman so you have to actually buy the trucks high. The sales staff handle warehousing OS will stuff yourself if you got to 25,001 barrels you had to distribute every barrel every drop of beer through 1/3 party middleman and this new bill is the locks usually raises the capital self distribution from 25,000 to 50,000, and you could now borrow 100,000 barrels of beer and distribute the first 50,000 yourself and why is this important well there are a number of brewers who say we want total control over our product will make sure this refrigerator properly and stored properly arrives fresh. There's a part of our customer has a problem with it.

We are right there to take care of it wouldn't waiver some middleman to come in and maybe deal with it. Or maybe not. And so that was the issue for them and also there was the issue of things like shelf space of grocery stores, things like that when you're dealing with the distributor who may have hundred labels it in his inventory. How do you know that your product is going to get good shelf space when instead if you're dealing directly with the retailers you want to deal with. You may shoot your good space. It seems to me it's really just an issue of choice there might well be someone who says you know what I am still involved in, for example brewing that I want to get involved in all the marketing and sales. Heck yeah I want to get that distributor and have that person do it for me but other people consider it their baby and they want to be the one to make the pitch in order to get that shelf space and that you're referring to, so really it when you bottom line.

It it's about treatment to choose how you want your product taking care is an issue in entrepreneurship because if you have for us as we were there were three big ones involve red Oak in Guilford County Noda and old milk back in Mecklenburg County and their goal was they wanted to make sure that they could sell to this places. I felt I would get the most business in the most this placement well-controlled the quality of their products in the distribution of it so old Mac may not want to be in every Food Lion. For instance, but it would it would be happy to be in specialty stores when they wanted to be in fresh market rate. They wanted to be.

Inspect specialized beer and wine stores and so if they were selling through distributor distributor essentially would have to offer it to anybody who wanted another distributor may push more or less for this particular product, but the distributor loses control had a lengthy conversation with Bill Cheryl who is the owner of red Oak and Whitsett close to 10 years ago. Bill thought about the fact that there particular way they make the beer it has to be refrigerated and kept at a certain temperature throughout the process and if it isn't then it goes bad pretty quickly and he was headed to deal he said with the Greensboro grasshoppers minor-league baseball team. For instance, when they sold his beer on tap.

There was an instance that was, not the fault of anybody except for the person who's actually putting a tap on the beer keg beer with a beard worn complaint and you complain to you completely will as bad beer you then immediately have a bad a bad reputation for red Oak leases.

I don't want to deal with that.

I want to make sure that I'm in control of my product and so for these individual brewers was so much choice in the marketplace. These individual brewers really get loyalty from their customers and so they want to make sure they have as much control over their products. Possible bipartisan agreement, Democratic governor, Republican legislators, and of course the brewers involved in this but there were also the middleman. The distributors involved in this and they agreed to it in this the part that is curious to me Rick because when they be potentially losing business. Those distributors if people have the freedom to do it on their own. Well that that's that's right. But as you point out earlier and off a lot of these brewers don't want anything to do with marketing the product. There brewers workers are not salespeople throughout HR departments that they make beer. They like to have other people sell it in the middleman for a very perform very valuable service for them at this point.

What happened was one brewer, a group brewers including the three we mentioned file a lawsuit saying that the current three-tiered system was restraint of trade violated the North Carolina Constitution and also that there were issues with the franchise agreements that several that a number of other brewers of varying sizes have said was a problem that is once used sign over to go with a middleman, you should.

You would think have the freedom to get out of that contract in a reasonably unreasonable circumstances and a lot of Bruce.

I know the circumstances were not reasonable if we didn't like the way that our beer was being presented. We were stuck in the buyouts of these contracts were exorbitant. They were distortionary and so they said this was bad weeks they sued and we were about to get to the point because Judge held the door spring of Orange County Superior Court. So this can go to trial we are getting the point at which people will be held under oath and they may well it had to admit that there may have been some rough tactics taking place in so to save their integrity and their business.

They say what would we go to the table with his brewers. After all, Rick. It's kind of interesting that whenever you talk about the issue of alcohol.

It's a touchy subject because there some people who say look, I understand it's about entrepreneurship, but we don't want to encourage people to drink irresponsibly made an interesting point that there has been kind of a movement, at least in some small towns that maybe there thinking that the small town tavern is something that we should be supporting not because it's alcohol but because this is a small town entrepreneurship that's having more more in small towns across the state in which the the restaurant the tavern. The brewpub is becoming the center of town was like a tail diner used to be and is a big change and is something that I think about what people realize that what I really think about alcohol in particular that possibility of having a local business that actually serves the community well is a good thing to have Rick Henderson as editor-in-chief of Carolina there been a number of stories that CJ has written on this issue.

You can find them North Carolina Gen. radio to come tired of fake names tired of reporters with political axes to grind. What you need to be reading Carolina Journal honest, uncompromising, old-school journalism, you expect and you need even better, the monthly Carolina Journal is free to subscribers sign up at Carolina. You'll receive Carolina Journal newspaper in your mailbox each month. Investigations into government spending revelations about boondoggles who the powerful leaders are and what they're doing in your name and with your money. We shine a light on it all with the stories and angles.

Outlets barely cover but there's a bonus print newspapers published monthly by our daily news site gives you the latest news each and every day lot onto Carolina once, twice, even three times a day won't be disappointed. It's fresh news if you'd like a heads up on the daily news sign up for daily email do that Carolina Carolina Journal, rigorous, unrelenting, old-school journalism, we hold government accountable for you and welcome back to Carolina Journal radio I Mitch co-guy. Medicaid generates plenty of headlines these days. Most of the discussion centers around whether North Carolina should expand Medicaid.

We pay less attention to how well the current program works, but that's where our next guest steps in state auditor Beth Wood and her staff devote a lot of time to Medicaid issues and she joins us now to discuss key findings. Thanks for joining us good to be here. Thank you for having so tell us a little bit about what the state auditor's office does in terms of looking into Medicaid when in that couple issues on or arenas that were able to do this we have to look at were required to look at Medicaid every year through the state's single audit that the audit of all federal grants from a compliance perspective, but then I have the opportunity to do discretionary on its performance audits looking at more in-depth performance of the program so we done both. We looked at what the federal government requires us to look at as far as improper payments and eligibility determination spot. We've also done some in-depth performance audits. Also looking at the Medicaid program with a $43 billion. That's billion with a B $43 billion operating budget every year. Medicaid makes up 14 billion of that spent that's a very significant chunk. What can you tell us about how well it works. Based on your audience well I'm with Medicaid. The spent starts with whether or not you're determined to be eligible so and once you spend the money is hard to get it back.

So making sure that everybody that the program is spending money online is truly eligible for those expenditures for that health insurance and so we conducted an audit about a year and half ago. We have 10 million citizens in North Carolina 2.1 on receive Medicaid and so we performed an audit of 10 counties.

The three largest Mecklenburg Lake and Guilford a Middlesex County, Rowand, and in six very small poor counties, and out of that 10 counties. We looked at eligibility determinations and the error rate 9/10 counties had an error rate of between 5% and 23%. Eris is pretty significant it is and the 23% are was our third largest spender of Medicaid $500 million is what that County spends on Medicaid every year and they had a 23% eligibility determination right now. This is not technical errors. This is not an error that budget was incorrectly calculated and when you calculated it correctly the person is still eligible.

This was errors that affected the eligibility people were on the program that should not been people were ejected from the program us a much smaller number but there were some people rejected from the program. That should not sound like an error that should not of been committed was to some sort of clerical thing or as you mentioned some sort of new computer coding exactly exactly why a person was on the program that should not have been 23% error rate and and just a note is that there were nine counties at a 10 between 5% and 23%. That means we had nine per centers 11% 16 per centers so it was arranged and the numbers fell all in between the federal government said. The error rate that we should be shooting for 3.5% how well and nine of the 10 were above that were about one well above that for $14 billion program that's also pretty bad news.

I think it is bad news detrimental because generally the federal government. GAO says projects that Medicaid spending will increase 6% the year, per year for the next 10 years 6%.

That is not sustainable. North Carolina cannot afford that.

So we have to make sure that everybody that needs the programs on their but nobody that we are chatting with state auditor Beth Wood and you mentioned that there is a need to make sure that those who are getting Medicaid dollars are the ones who are supposed to be on the program that really sets aside this whole debate about whether to expand or not expand, but if you have the program. It ought to be what working the way it's supposed to hear hear exactly right. And again, for every dollar that spent on somebody that's not eligible then that lessens the chance of Medicaid expansion because again 6% year per year. Now the next 10 years. That is money that eventually will come back to North Carolina and that we have to cover 35% of the spent every for every Medicaid dollar that you spend 65% is federal dollars $0.35 on the dollar comes out of our state appropriations. So the Fed say if we expand Medicaid, they will pay for it eventually down the road 35% will come back to North Carolina eventually, and we need to be able to be sure that we can afford that you mentioned that particular audit but your office is involved in others.

Are there other key findings you've been focusing on lately. Absolutely we have just gone from.

We spend about $11 billion on healthcare for people that can afford it right now we are spending 3.2 billion through managed care organizations. That's for people with dump development disabilities mental health substance-abuse. We've just signed contracts to move another $6 billion through managed care organizations will be looked at. The right setting a person through managed care.

We pay a per member per month rate and then the managed care organization spacecraft on healthcare for these individuals, but a per member per month rate. We just looked at the rate setting process and we found that while the rate setting process is actuarially sound. None of the data that went into the rate setting was accurate or reliable. We are sending letting them MCO's in our current process relating the MCO's San financial data to the actuary.

Nobody is tying it back to audited financial statements. We found some of the data was is me much as $4 million over what the audited financial statements say that it showed up in the encounter data, the services that we pay for and how much we pay for them. The MCO's who benefits from the rate me and set sending the information directly from themselves to the actuary. The member month data how many months out of the year. Are you on Medicaid again. The date is going straight from the MCO to the actuary and in the actuary is certifying. I have nothing to do with the accuracy of these numbers. It's all on DHHS and the MCO yet DHHS did not think to verify now. I think it's a key point everything the actuary was supposed to do by his industry standards.

He did on correctly, but the data that he used was unreliable and inaccurate and had not been confirmed. Therefore, the MCO's amassed $439 million in two years. Where do the fix start one affixes have to start back at DHHS and their contracting because here's the deal. For every dollar we give to MCO and they don't spend it.

Anything that's left over. They get to use it, it loses its identity as Medicaid money, so there's no requirement are compelling to use it for Medicaid services that combine airplane.

They can find a bat go buy a brand-new building they can pay horrendously huge salaries to their staff. They can get bonuses which I found that one of them did and so the monies are just not being used. And there are people sitting on wait list for services that is the voice of state auditor would like to thank you for having a lot more Carolina journal radio just a moment. If you have freedom we got great news to share with you now.

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Don't forget to today, something nice and help defend freedom, help support the John Mott foundation. Welcome back to Carolina journal radio hi Michiko guy, a compromise between North Carolina's craft brewers and beer distributors is one support from state lawmakers Republican State Sen. Bill Raburn offer details the illusion that was the rules and build wholesalers and common ground as members bounce around was Jim about a dozen news it will distribute up to 50,000 a year. Republican Sen. Rick Gunn is serving his fifth term in Raleigh.

He's glad to see this issue finally resolved. Since our God. Here we've had this conversation and I'm just glad I can stand up here to tell you that door to find groups great freedom folks were the crab beer and wine wholesalers have taken a contention with contentious issue and brought it to something that will continue to allow our local craft brewers to grow and prosper.

Will continue now to allow more choices for consumers and the 18,000 restaurants. The dog serve go the craft beer product through all have that more choices and it also does something very important to keep the integrity all our strong commitment to the three-tier system here in the state of North Carolina. The compromise generated bipartisan support Democratic Sen. Mike Woodard of Durham County explained why he liked the craft brewery bill wasn't gone, but I have rural towns to downtown Oxford and downtown lots, but in those other communities. I've seen the positive impact the small and emerging craft breweries are having on our communities become places for social gathering of it also helped influence the economies, particularly small towns with burgeoning restaurants in helping bring life to the downtowns at the same time more than 4000 N. Carolinians work for our beer distributors. These are good jobs with good benefits that our distributors provide.

I'm very happy that both sides on this issue are craft brewers and our distributors have been working so hard for this morning when solution and leaves the consumers and the people who work for both of these industries who can enjoy the benefits of this bill. Wholesalers and our rulers over the last year to find this common ground. It took a lot of work for us to get here, but we got a great solution before. After winning widespread support in the statehouse senators voted 38 three to endorse the compromise term with more Carolina journal radio will wear doubling down on freedom at Carolina journal radio were proud to bring you stories that impact your life and your wallet. And now get twice as much freedom when you also listen to our podcast headlock available on iTunes Locke is a little bit different.

It's a no holds barred discussion that challenges softheaded ideas from the left and the right light. Carolina journal radio headlock is smart and timely but with headlock you'll hear more about the culture wars and you get some more humor as well.

We guarantee great information and a good time double down with us. Listen to Carolina journal radio each week and listen to headlock to remember, you can listen to or subscriber download each week iTunes Carolina journal radio and headlock just what you need to stay informed and stay entertain both brought to you in the name of freedom by the John Locke foundation. Welcome back to Carolina journal radio hi Michiko guy, a bipartisan group of North Carolina lawmakers is pushing something called the second chance act Democratic State Sen. Floyd McKissick of Durham County explains the primary purpose of this act is to provide people will pay their debt to society committing offense with a chance to return to a normal life teen employment provide for themselves and their families come contributing members of society into radio boy recidivism bill is very straightforward, establishes a process and procedure for people who actually been convicted of criminal offenses to be able to go into court after they pay their debt society after they pay restitution if serve their time no longer on probation and to get X functions very very helpful because it opens up the doors for employment opportunities. It opens up the doors for housing because of apartment complexes. You can even get into. A criminal record.

It opens up their life to normality when it comes to the school with Bill, it would offense was committed.

One person was 16 or 17 years old. It will be covered as well as class H and I felonies does not cover motor vehicle expenses usually violations are of those offenses. It does not include driving while impaired charges of the offense would have to be the type of events that would not require somebody be registered as a sex offender and a course any restitution. It might've been ordered by the court will have to be paid when you look at the people that we in fact brought significant. There is also language in the bill that deals with those who committed offenses under the age of 20. That would allow prosecutor to go back electronically and take a look at the records might be there.

McKissick also mentioned automatic expunction's automatic is like it will be for those people who charges dismissed against them.

People work charges have been not guilty for those type of individuals rather than having to go out and heart attorney to get his function as a mechanism in the bill, which shall become effective July 1, 2020 were on their own initiative for the initiative of the DAs charges can automatically be dismissed because when they're out there, they can be inferior to employment when they're healthier to be a very housing very to so many things in life.

That's what were trying to do this.

Publican Sen. Danny Britt of Robinson County cosponsors. The second chance act what is billed about jobs feel this field of stores and stores for folks who made a mistake.

At one point in their life they learn from that day we sing. Recidivism rates are very low folks. If not recommitted. Seven years is we're allowing these folks build into the workforce better themselves but of the $87 billion is lost to our economy and job market. So this is actually a job bill say bipartisan effort to get this comment we had in the state that in the country has led folks to understand the need for labor.

The quality labor folks to fill some of these jobs is just another step in that direction of folks back in the direction that they needed the helping these folks who did stumble at one time in their life and are now ready to move all and Mark Holden of Coke industries explains why he is a physician supports the second chance act. We are really focus on various opportunity that if you want to look at is been a major merit opportunity for millions of millions of Americans have 30 or 40 years we want is for the public safety will rise equal justice is one based on second chance. I won't go into too much, but are criminal Joseph system. Quite frankly has become a failed government program system is is on rising concerns the rich and you'll get a better deal than the poor and the and if you don't have resources you're going to hear what over and often times I hate to say since can be relevant and so from our perspective, we look at it from a moral perspective and a physical perspective, the criminal justice system is more important, you have a system where people in society have served prison term have to pay fines.

Whatever might be the do all the and generally speaking, when someone pays the society, in our view, you should get a citizen but we don't do that. We never forgive. And that is immoral. In my book was because of the collateral consequences to a criminal conviction in this country is Artie talked about the future from housing to choose from. Jobs keep you from educational facial licensing rooms to get a drivers license. It's a wonder the recidivism rate far higher than they are more as well. So from our perspective, people should get all the right structure.

What should be a one-size-fits-all situation, there may be situations where you should be a housing situation or patient depending on what your crime was and where you are as a person, but this is a land of second chances. That's what America was. And we need to remember that former Obama advisor David plop is now with the Shannon Zuckerberg initiative is group also supports the second chance act one in three Americans have a criminal record comes a recent study, I guess. Not surprisingly, given that they wanted to.

Americans have a close family member who's been incarcerated, so the thing that we probably have most in common in America, most unifying factor is that we have all experience, justices meet ourselves and so this is not a small problem. It's affecting majority of our country you live in North Carolina last year hundred thousand convictions of less than 200 people at the record expunged. Think about fifth so you have to make it easy.

You have to make it automatic so that people right now though the final people are unaware they have to hire lawyers.

The county courthouse, maybe 20 or 25 miles away. So there's always very swift to make. It is so that people can seize this opportunity. It might not surprise you that liberals and libertarians support the second chance act. Davidson Fabian explains why the American conservative Union is also on board, we will never support legislation that undermines public safety were able to slow the revolving door and out of prison by reducing recidivism to enhance public safety for neighborhoods and communities. We try to hold government accountable, not just with dollars for try to hold government accountable for the results to generate states like North Carolina right now have recidivism rates in excess of 50%. Only government program can fail 50% of the time and continue moving forward involved in this because we believe in human dignity and redemption. Every person is capable some degree of and so as we look at the system to see how to see the effects of the scar without your designated phone for me is that you get nearly 50% less likely to call back for job interview. And even if you get the job your salaries between 10 and 40% less than appear that might not have the scarlet. It seems to us that legislation like this I can transact here is not just important but it is a moral imperative if we can't help people get back on their feet after they have paid their debt to society is really commentary on our broader system and how it's failing. Everybody makes us less safe. It cost us more than it fails to fails to acknowledge the humanity that we all learn and the capability of redemption that we all should be listening to supporters of the second chance act legislation moving now through the North Carolina Gen. assembly will return with more Carolina journal radio in a moment real influence.

You either have it or you don't and at the John Locke foundation we have it, you'll find our guiding principles in many of the freedom forward reforms of the past decade here in North Carolina.

So while others talk or complain or name call. We provide research solutions and hope our team analyzes the pressing issues of the day jobs, healthcare, education, and more.

We look for effective ways to give you more freedom, more options, more control over your life. Our goal is to transform North Carolina into a growing, thriving economic powerhouse, the envy of every other state research is how policymakers make decisions that ensure you keep more of what you are. Expand your choice of schools for your kids. Widen your job opportunities improve your access to doctors. The recipe for stability and a bright future for truth for freedom for the future of North Carolina. We are the John Locke foundation. Welcome back to Carolina journal radio Donna Martinez. It has been a source of frustration for some parents and some educators alike and now, researchers have found that in some cases, student achievement has been hurt by what's known as common core. Dr. Terry stoops is a vice president for research.

Also, the director of education studies for the John Locke foundation is taken a look at all of this and is joining us to explain exactly what the researchers have found and what we might do going forward, and Terry, welcome back to the show thank you first about just a brief primer. What is common core. Common core is a set of reading and math standards that North Carolina adopted in 2010, and these standards were written by a few groups and trade associations from Washington DC achieve, Inc. of the Gates foundation had a role to play in the development of common core and most states adopted common core in 2010 two 2012 and it was in that.

The recession had just heads and states were looking for money in the federal government was offering some in the with the condition that those states adopt the common core. So that's why it happened so quickly after the money train that's right after they were introduced in North Carolina was one of the first states to adopt common core in the fully implemented in about 2012 is when they start doesn't actually change what is taught or how things are taught yeah this is actually a pretty serious debate in research circles because standards just outline what should be taught in each grade of the content that should be taught the goals that student should meets in each grade in reading and math, but it doesn't provide a curriculum. It doesn't show you how to teach it. It doesn't show you what lessons to provide and it certainly doesn't necessarily give teachers a a a solid roadmap for how to teach the content in the standards so they strongly influence what's taught in the classroom, but they don't necessarily dictate how it's taught in the and you know, to the extent that we know the effects of common core. Once it was introduced. We can only speculate that the teachers stuck to the standards fairly closely when they were teaching the content in the classroom.

It appears to be having quite an impact. And unfortunately, in some cases a negative impact based on some research that has been released in a story published by the Federalist. I believe it was a joy Poneman, who wrote about this tell us what the research is showing well research is showing that absence of the common core standards. Student performance on the federal national assessment of educational progress tests would have been higher had the states not adopted common core.

So what they basically did was they looked at the national assessment of educational progress which is a test that's administered by the federal government every two years in grades four and AIDS in reading and math and reason why use that tests is because we been administering it for a long time so we have test results for for very long time. These are the nape tests that he will hear about us. That's really the gold standard of testing their very rigorous and researchers seem to like to use them because they're so rigorous and because of such little variation every two years and in the test itself. So what does the researchers, the American Institute of research or research did was essentially look at what would happen if the states There will standards and predicted what their scores on these name tests would be if they kept their old standards compared to what they were under the common core standards and they found that in grades four and AIDS in reading and math.

The scores would've been higher if they just kept their old standards compared to what they did when they adopted the common core standards. Fair to say that is alarming.

Yeah, absolutely.

It is because what we were told whatever mom was told when the common core was adopted in 2010 is that it was a game changer. Not only would all the states be using the same standards which would allow the student to easily move from school district to school district without losing content is that they were going to raise student achievement. I mean this was the promise that in the two areas that we care about the most math and reading that students were going to learn more be able to do more because they had these supposedly strong standards that were underlying curriculum and the testing that were the states provide. While it doesn't seem to be the case, and then that's the most disconcerting part about this is that we've invested a lot of time and a lot of money in standards that probably had a negative effect overall and certainly didn't have the type of positive affect those who were urging us to those who were urging us to adopt the standards claimed it would Terry for years now.

We have had them a contingent of parents and some educators who've been saying this is a very bad idea.

I mean, this is kind of a national movement against common core and it seems this research seems to bear out their concerns that this wasn't going to work out so what happens now will that's a great question and you're exactly right.

If you look at polling done on common core support started out fairly strong in 2010 but then both teachers and parents start to sour on in the on the idea. Once they realized what was in the standards and how they were being translated into classroom practice, especially the mass standards which tended to not use the old standard way of teaching math but introduce new methods that tended to confuse students.

And so Samantha is hard enough.

I have as well and so the support in polling started to decline in many states started to look at their standards. In North Carolina we have the academic standards review commission in 2015 that was considering making sweeping changes to our standards and in the end there were no sweeping changes made. Now the state North Carolina has subsequently made changes to its standards, specifically in grades K-8 math and K-12 reading of the 2018 19 school year was the first year that we had revised standards. Now that doesn't mean the common core is gone in North Carolina even though we change the name and tweaked it abets it means that we have made changes to the common core standards we adopted in 2010. This is the real confusing part for a lot of people is they don't see the name common core attached to their state standards and they assume that common core must've been jettisoned well. No states were kind of savvy in their PR and decided that common core is a term was something that had a negative connotation so they change the name they tweaked it a bit but still the nuts and bolts of common core still in place. If we've tweaked that particular standard, then that tells me that people believe that the problem the challenge was with the standards themselves. Do you believe that or is it an issue of teachers not understanding something new and how to teach it.

I tend to think that what happens in the classroom matters most. And so II think there was a combination of things with some teachers not knowing how to really translate the standards into classroom practice but also some of the standards were very unclear.

Some of them didn't make sense, sequentially or by grade and so teachers were along the way making their changes based on what they know their students to the standards and that may have played a role in why we haven't seen the kind of achievement that they were expecting, but I think this is an experiment that's gone bad, and the state should seriously consider revising their standards and looking at states that have rigorous non-common core standards as models. Terry, thank you so much appreciated time we have for the program this week on behalf of Mitch Cope and Donna Martinez join us again next week for more Carolina internal radio like a journal radio is a program of the John Locke foundation to learn more about the John Locke foundation, including donations that support programs like Carolina journal radio send email to development John Locke done for call 1866 jail left in 1-866-553-4636 Carolina journal radio is the John line foundation airline is maintaining an Carolina broadcasting system, Inc. all opinions expressed on this program are solely those did not merely reflect the organization, formation about the show. Other programs and services of the John foundation, John Locke, toll-free at 868 JL would like to thank our wonderful radio affiliates across Carolina and our sponsors. Carolina journal radio listening. Please join us again next week

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