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Carolina Journal Radio No. 915: Returning students to in-person schooling presents urgent challenge

Carolina Journal Radio / Donna Martinez and Mitch Kokai
The Truth Network Radio
November 30, 2020 8:00 am

Carolina Journal Radio No. 915: Returning students to in-person schooling presents urgent challenge

Carolina Journal Radio / Donna Martinez and Mitch Kokai

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November 30, 2020 8:00 am

There’s an urgent need to return N.C. public school students to in-person instruction. That’s the message Terry Stoops hopes to send. The John Locke Foundation’s vice president for research and director of education studies explains why the science and data suggest that school kids face much more danger of long-lasting negative effects if they remain stuck in forced online learning. Republicans will maintain control of both chambers of the N.C. General Assembly in 2021. After winning key elections this month, state Senate leader Phil Berger, R-Rockingham, and House Speaker Tim Moore, R-Cleveland, offered their reactions to voters’ decisions. Berger and Moore also discussed key issues likely to crop up in next year’s legislative session. COVID-19 has created challenges for everyone, including leaders of the University of North Carolina System. President Peter Hans recently briefed his Board of Governors on budget and access issues linked to the pandemic. The coronavirus has caused headaches for groups working to help military veterans find jobs in the civilian world. During a recent online presentation hosted by the John Locke Foundation, Kimberly Williams of the group North Carolina for Military Employment, NC4ME, discussed COVID-19’s impact on her group’s operations. Some national Democrats are pushing for presumptive President-elect Joe Biden to push a plan for packing the U.S. Supreme Court with new liberal justices. Brenée Goforth of the John Locke Foundation discusses the history of the court-packing debate. She explains why the idea is just as bad now as it was when President Franklin Delano Roosevelt proposed a similar scheme in the 1930s.

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From Cherokee to current tax and the largest city in the statehouse into the schoolhouse Carolina Journal radio your weekly news magazine discussing North Carolina's most of public-policy events and issues welcome to Carolina Journal radio why Michiko got during the next hour, Donna Martines and I will explore some major issues affecting our state Republicans will run North Carolina's Gen. assembly again in the new year.

Leaders in both the state House and Senate share their thoughts about the recent election along with their future plans. The cobra 19 pandemic means both budget and access challenges for the University of North Carolina University's president recently address those issues. You'll hear what he said.

Coronavirus also has affected military veterans returning to the civilian world. You hear from the head of a North Carolina group working to plug veterans into civilian jobs that will examine the controversial history of court packing proposals in Washington DC. Those topics are just ahead. First, Donna Martinez joins us with the Carolina Journal had lie. The urgency of resuming in person instruction for North Carolina school kids cannot be overstated. That is the message from our next guest, Dr. Terry stoops a message conveyed in his recent column Terry is the John Locke foundation's education expert.

He joins us now to talk about what we are facing in our state. Terry welcome back to the program. Thank you so we've had a number of months now course of mandated remote learning.

Some districts have kids, I'm completely remote Tam others have some sort of a hybrid situation and you have big concerns about all of this. What bothers you most well, it appears that the consensus in the scientific community is that skate that schools are safe to reopen the school buildings are safe to reopen. And yet there seems to be hesitancy across the states through school boards. Teachers County commissions other elected officials that are reluctant to open schools that don't feel that it's safe even know that the scientific community. The Department of Health and Human Services and many others are saying that yes, not only is it safe to open schools but school should be considered an essential service that their opening and allowing students to come back in person is absolutely essential in the same way.

For example, that grocery stores were deemed essential business by the governor that that's exactly right.

And they should be considered as such and you you think about all the things schools do of course there there engaged in education, but they allow adults working adults to be able to go to work which course of Rome remote learning is happening makes it very difficult for parents to be able to do so. They address the mental health needs of students. The academic needs of students and sometimes even the nutritional needs of students by providing meals for those children so we we look at all the different things that schools do we look at the fact that the scientific consensus tells us that there safe to reopen.

And yet, not all of our schools are opening across North Carolina. He mentioned something really fascinating. On one hand, and tragic. On the other and that is the mental health issues that are associated with mandated remote learning talk a little bit more about that well we don't really have a good handle on just how widespread and whether it is affecting some populations more than others, but the initial research, the receiving right now tells us that our children are suffering from mental health problems, depression that their frustrated working from home they know could see their friends they don't get that daily interaction with their peers that allows them to self regulates in and helps them to in their developments in their social development, so this is really the worry herein and we will have good data. Like I said about how widespread the social of the mental health problems are North Carolina, but if some of the data that were receiving from initial studies is any indication that we should be very worried about the mental state of our students not only should we be worried about that but tend Terry moving ahead. What can we tell at this point, if anything, about the academic rigor that is or isn't associated with promote learning and what that means for kids in terms of the progress that we would be expecting them to make over a school year again this one. The frustrating things about North Carolina's we we don't really have a good handle on that for more states we we don't have the kind of date of the be necessary for us to tell us whether students are progressing regressing that would require a whole battery of and beginning of the year tests that would then be compared to tests that students took in the past week. We just don't have that right now, but what we do have is we have testing that's taken place in other places and we have research that's been done on remote learning and the I can say that the researchers been done on remote learning tells us that remote learning for most students is inferior to traditional in person instruction. Students just don't get as much content through remote learning as they would if there sitting in a classroom there's a lot of reasons why this might be the case said teachers aren't used to using remote learning.

It's not something that they have experience with and teachers. It's a very will in a classroom. It's a very interactive environment. A teacher can tell when a student does not understand something they always tells me I know and and so they can review that right there in class with promote learning. That's just very difficult to do so even the tiniest interactions between student and teacher windows are missing can really have long-term damaging consequences on the academic progress for children and and as far as the test scores. We have to rely on places like Dallas to really understand what's going on. Tell us more about Dallas you write about Dallas in the column that you posted will Dallas did an initial examination of test scores. They did a a beginning of the year test and they compare that to testing that occurred before and the results were really not really unexpected but but horrifying in the words of one school board members seeing students in math and reading, regressing, significantly compared to their last test scores that this is really the worrisome part, especially in math where I believe around 50% of the students were actually doing worse than they would have had they come back for conventional in person instruction. This is extremely worrisome because not only did they regress in math, but they're going continue regressing as long as students are outs of the classroom and that adds up. It's not something that's easily made up for it in the course of a couple months it takes years to be able to fill that gap between what a student knows and what they should know if this point in their academic career. Math was a tough one for me when I was going to school and these days we hear so much Terry about reading science and math being critical for careers of the future so should we be looking ahead and saying oh my gosh.

Not only is this just a problem because everyone needs to understand the basics and in some advanced concepts in mathematics, but it could affect a career down the road absolutely will cook it will definitely affect the career earnings of those children when they come out of of high school and go into the workforce with fewer skills it will affect the economy, North Carolina's economy, the United States economy seeing a loss in GDP for having a generation of kids that are entering the workforce with fewer skills so there's a lot of things to worry about than you look at some of the long-term projections of what this may cost the United States economy were looking at trillions and lost GDP over the course of their of their life of the of the students life and this is really the worrisome parts is that we we look at what some of the short-term consequences of this are for students mental health for their academic career and then you look at some of the long-term consequences for students earning ability of their ability to graduate from college, to be prepared for college and then what that means for our long-term economic prospects and you realize just how much this crisis is going to have lasting effects for nation and Terry despite all of the challenges and concerns that were discussing here today you actually write that you are optimistic about 2021. Why we know that we have a problem that that faces us. We understand the problem and I think we have the people in place now that will be focused on addressing the problem. Dr. Terry stoops is the vice president for research. The director of education studies at the John Locke foundation. Thank you thank you with as much more Carolina journal just tired of fake names tired of reporters with political axes to grind. What you need to be reading Carolina journal, honest, uncompromising, old-school journalism, you expect and you need even better, the monthly Carolina journal is free to subscribers sign you'll receive Carolina journal newspaper in your mailbox each month. Investigations into government spending revelations about boondoggles who the powerful leaders are and what they're doing in your name and with your money.

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We hold government accountable for you welcome that Carolina journal radio I Michiko got Republicans will control North Carolina's Gen. assembly again in 2021. Once that result became clear on election night legislative leaders responded to Berger of rocking ham County is led the state Senate ever since the GOP won control of that chamber 10 years ago the sixth consecutive election voters made a clear choice in support of Republican platform of low taxes, expanded school choice and large investments in education and teacher policies that are broadly popular even among groups that traditionally don't support public record for the last decade is clear. A booming economy that we intend review low taxes, giving parents, even parents from lower income households the same opportunities for the children's education majority will continue the next two years we see a departure divisive partisan lawsuit. I am strong attempts at good-faith negotiations between Republicans and Democrats in the legislature and executive winning the 2020 election gives Republicans control over redrawing state election maps worker address that issue for the second time in 10 years, Senate Republicans 100 maps approved by and drawn by Democrats district we want in created by the Democratic Party's expert Matt Mike were chosen at random by lottery ball machine amended amended exclusively on amendments from the Democrats, Republicans still want a clear majority. This puts an end to the decade-long saga of redistricting lawsuits all bucket work should expect to see the same policies that voters convincingly supported state House Speaker Tim Moore contrasted the election night reality with the pre-election projections. Much of the news coverage leading up to this was talking about how we were going to lose the majority in the house and so obviously that didn't happen. Not only do we maintain the majority we actually added for seats. What I was saying a lot. I would talk to folks who would say the polls are saying this, opposer saying that what I was saying consistently out there. The energy around the site was a lot of enthusiasm Republicans up and down the ticket North Carolina voters know that that Republicans really stand for safety and security around the state. They know the policies that we put forward to working fact that North Carolina, despite Cove in 19 is still in really good financial shape and we have some sectors that are need some help were all prepared to get back to work and make sure that we get that done. Also sinners will be some partisan flavor to the next few weeks. At some point in the near future you have to eventually put aside the Republicans being Democrats, libertarians, whatever else and realize and recognize the fact they were all American. I like so many have seen some of the things that happen where things are turned violent and property destruction.

And I'll say I've talked to folks of all political stripes back home around stake and people were saying enough is enough. So the one thing that I definitely make sure to get out there is that for these folks you want to go out and try to tear the cities up because of this problem is that the people of North Carolina do not stand and they do not want that to happen. Where do we go from here. Policies continue to build on examples.

For example, the way we do the COBE project we came through legislation passed almost unanimously really build to try to get those coalitions because we know that our best days are those we can always work together in product doing solutions. The House Speaker noted a large influx of campaign money from outside of North Carolina targeting the state legislative elections.

There's never been this much money brought from outside the state of North Carolina try to flip the state legislature is ever happen. I been told numbers like 80% of the money that came in was from out of state. But you know what that proves the fact we maintain a majority use.

You just can't buy elections on these legislative races. People were going to vote for folks they know and trust of those local legislative district, and I think I think that may be less of those out-of-state groups. They don't need to come North Carolina by these legislative elections. What about working again in the new year with Democratic Gov. Roy Cooper is black Republican priorities on more than one occasion during the past four years. Senate leader Phil Berger has a response, I'll just offer my congratulations to Gov. Cooper on his reelection look forward working with them hopeful that it will. We will have an opportunity to get some more things done in the next two years than we were able to get done in the last two years. Just because top legislative leaders are willing to work with Gov. Roy Cooper. That doesn't mean they will endorse his priorities. That includes Medicaid expansion Phil Berger in all of the contested legislative races.

That was an issue in those races as well. The Democratic candidate in each race ran as a proponent of Medicaid expansion in each of those contested races, the Democratic candidate was rejected.

It is, it is my belief that the Gov. Cooper one is rice clearly one, but I don't believe it was because of his positional Medicaid expansion. Berger and Moore went to court to block the state board of elections from rewriting state election rules. While both were being cast. The House Speaker discussed that issue. I do believe that the wall that we passed with bipartisan interest signed by the governor should be followed.

I don't believe ports I don't believe administrative bodies should be just arbitrarily extending statutes or by frankly violating statutes you voters want certainty of elections they want to know who have who receive the most votes get that certified and move on. Anytime you start having delay in dragging things out all you do is you create concerns or worries of uncertainty.

Something done wrong in the minds of those voters and it didn't look you can look out there and you can see that both sides of the political while focusing we need to get on and follow the wall and make sure that we count the balance of the day there supposed to be there.

Make sure you count the ones that were in his anytime you start doing things different raises questions with Pennsylvania Argus in Michigan as well and so I hope that the US Supreme Court finally weigh in on this and get clarity at the end of the day it's about new legislative bodies that pass validly adopted laws.

Those mean something or can just unelected unelected bureaucrats can just judges just willy-nilly pull things out of the sky created that is a very dangerous thing. We don't need that happening in North Carolina or anywhere else Senate leader Phil Berger chimed in, especially when the changes are things that were considered by the legislature and rejected the heaven unelected administrative body to then, notwithstanding that rejection by the legislature and make those changes anyway think that's a perversion of the discussion return to redistricting which will take place in 2021 with new census data to Senate leader Phil Berger expect a repeat of the process that produced the current state election maps sentence that's notably the point we would start from is the way we handle things in 2019 will see if that's a way for us to do it speaker Tim Moore has his own thoughts about redistricting in 2021.

I like the way that we did the open process for everything happen. I think that was a great model. It was of course the there we were changing existing districts when it comes to related to the 2020 year but I have to have you got a census you have new districts based on populations you have major shifts that's going to be a difference.

I don't I don't know the folks of fully realized the extent of shifts you to see or districts concentrated in your urban and suburban areas as well as the rural areas just because of the shift in population Savior is a post a lot of the trimming around around the edges like you saw this last time you start with a blank slate and go from there. Legislative races congressional races and everything but look up and be proud of the way we have done redistricting this year, we were directed with the majority with maps that largely were dictated by what a Democratic map drawer had done so there all be the end of this talk about gerrymandering and all that is why Republicans are in charge because we have now.

The cycle is proven, that is not the case. Reality is the voters of this state voters of the state chose to have a Republican majority in the state Senate and the statehouse that's House Speaker Tim Moore.

You also heard from Senate leader Phil Berger there addressing key issues for the Gen. assembly in the year ahead. Once again, Republicans will lead both legislative chambers with more Carolina journal radio in a moment.

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Welcome back Carolina journal radio I Mitch co-guy the COBIT 19 pandemic continues to impact the way the University of North Carolina goes about its business. During a recent meeting of UNC's board of governors Pres. Peter Hans discussed likely impacts on the university budget. What we do know for certain is that your head will bring deep financial and operational challenges. We laid out state budget request for the University that recognizes reality protecting academic mission. In addition to her to establish unified budget throughout the system for taking a disciplined approach for the tightly focused explanation of these were not asking projects or new initiatives are lawmakers choices I had given the state of the economy.

We owe them concise or of poor needs, including to fully fund since one of the few universities in the country to add student continued support of NC promise, which is dramatically lower tuition and expanded opportunity was the city state, Western Carolina shoring up our building reserve can currently operate the public assets under care. This is not a moment for plans. This is a moment for keeping our most important promises to the students, and citizens of North Carolina, including identifying potential savings that can be carried forward into the next fiscal year. As UNC looks to tighten its belt. Hans offered a warning about the needs of current and prospective students. The same economic condition, stressing the state budget will also create an unprecedented need for access to our institutions. Hundreds of thousands of North Carolinians will be seeking careers in new we know from past experience that many of them will choose to start search for states community colleges have a transfer from community colleges to four-year institutions and for that matter someone cool to another along with to see that happen. There's an obvious economic case for but I believe we have obligations in this time of deep need for options on the table for people seeking better opportunity and never let administrative burdens come between student and the education they need to succeed. When we fail to provide good options, flexible options, those students lined up in places with please leave a lot of dad and little to show for and pursue further education at all. That's University of North Carolina system president. He's discussing some of the University's current budget challenges and access priorities will return with more Carolina journal radio in a moment where doubling down on freedom at Carolina journal radio were proud to bring you stories that impact your life and your wallet.

And now get twice as much freedom when you also listen to our podcast headlock available on iTunes Locke is a little bit different.

It's a no holds barred discussion that challenges softheaded ideas from the left and the right, like Carolina journal radio headlock is smart and timely but with headlock you'll hear more about the culture wars get some more humor as well. We guarantee great information and a good time that's listen to Carolina journal radio each week and listen to headlock to remember, you can listen to or subscriber download each week iTunes Carolina journal radio and headlock just what you need to stay informed and stay entertained both brought to you in the name of freedom by the John Locke foundation will go back Carolina journal radio I Mitch co-guy COBIT 19 is created job-related challenges across the board in North Carolina. One group that see new challenges, military veterans returning to the civilian workforce. Willie Williams is CEO of the group, North Carolina for military employment, also known as NCE for me.

Williams discussed covert 19th impact on her work during an online forum sponsored by the John Locke foundation. This is obviously a huge change in our nation goal is to make sure that our transition service members are veterans in our garden reservists have jobs here in North Carolina number one driver for economic developing his talent and we want to keep our talent here, North Carolina noted that economic development. We have 20,000 transitioning servicemembers that come up our bases every year because we are the fourth largest department defense presence. I want you to think about that 20,000 folks exiting our bases that are high-performing employees me as an HR professional.

I want to get my hands on her biggest challenge with NC for the last 5 to 6 years haven't been in existence is really educating employers on the value value proposition a higher servicemembers because they have an extreme that demonstrated high performance and we always tell everybody had people tell me Hiram that it's the right thing to do and I thought about all my experience in human resources and corporate American. I never hired anyone the right thing. We hire people that are performers that drive bottom-line results. So we educate employers on the value and I will tell you which made it more difficult now is board competing against people in the private sector existed and we didn't get to educate people on the value that when the employment rate was around 3%. Just, you know, a few months ago right before because the lowest it's been 16 years. It was easy for us convinced of the value right desires are rated 3.2%. I believe it is about 3% of the nation's population is unemployable. So basically we had a 0% unemployment rate and our employers were hungry for talent and so is so much easier to convince them of the value of servicemembers. Now, with the unemployment rate that's exceedingly high. It is difficult for us to make sure employees across the state are looking transitioning servicemembers as value because there are so many people in the unemployment market right now. So for us it's definitely changing our focus on how we move forward and educate our employers in the value and then of course making sure we connect them talent supply that's number one leading the basis number two that are veterans already in the workforce that are looking for jobs because maybe the underemployed and certainly our garden reservists. If you look at those three different areas of people with military talent well over 70,000 people. So we want to make sure that our servicemembers stay on the front burner when we go through these challenges, Williams highlights a key challenge for members of the military, moving into the civilian world perception issue and so many there's only 1% of the nation's population that's in the military and the other 99% of people like me that don't really understand what people in the military. We assume their driving tanks so that shooting guns not realize that 80% of the MLS which is military activation specialties have a civilian counterpart like lawyers right financial accountants that handle human resources like media service of traveler transportation. So for the military.

It's a perception issue and try to get them in the door is difficult. That's Kimberly Williams, CEO of North Carolina for military employment. She speaking during a recent John Locke foundation online forum, Williams says covert, 19 is helped force her group toward one positive change. I will say I believe it or not we we connect company's across the state actually really companies across the nation that may be based in the state, like Cisco and MetLife are two of our biggest sponsors and partners because I was thinking.

Give them high-performing talent that date.

They also are in national and international. But the reality is that that this perception of of some of those individuals that are looking for jobs become a barrier 19 is actually helped us with the networking piece because we make our connection between our talent supply. It could be any talent really and with the company's hiring events.

These are not job fairs, job fairs have a very small success rate. About 2% across the nation hired events that we actually schedule interviews and we have over 50% success rate. The reality is we can only pull those off, probably every month we did 10 to 12 year because you get breakfast and lunch for people of drive from all of the different places in the state now because we were thinking about leaving to virtual platform that we weren't sure how to go about that now.

We've been forced to and we actually purchased a virtual having are hiring events and making the best of a bad situation right and we can now push these hiring events out much quicker were much more nimble and flexible and were able to get people in front of the employees much faster when you're working with technology companies that and with energy technology bio we doing every industry can possibly imagine it. It's actually helped a similar talk about some of the issues with 19 and how it's changed how we all work and how we view the workforce and how we demonstrate our success in helping develop network networking groups. I think if you can't get on the edge of that look at it as a positive actually helps drive your business. It certainly has for us.

Williams points to survey results from military members reentering the civilian world number one concern when leaving the military is important and it's interesting we talk about state licensure and/or certifications you can drive a giant Humvee or truck in the military but you can't literally come out and get your CDL in in that state that were working on that and that states working on several levels. The reality is met you not listening to the conversation. And it's interesting because I often did ask why I do this work in a way Sam saving lives is the number one concern for my veterans is that they can't find employment rate so used to being in an environment that's very sick used to working in groups on teams and feeling very valuable as soon as they accept. Where is that I don't feel like I'm contributing.

I don't like adding value. I am not receiving a paycheck so I can't make my car payment.

I can't make my mortgage payment does lead to a high level of divorce, particularly after the exit military and it's interesting to me. Did you talk to people with any sectional amount of experience in jobs that we now exist across her careers never exist across the state and the nation. So our veteran suicide rate is ridiculously high based on the fact that many of our servicemembers get out are not able to secure employment, and so that is why we focus on that it and see for me and honestly with all different areas of the of the workforce, not just the veteran said that, I think, and I think it's adding the value in having that connect having that network of people that that all of a sudden no longer exists and how you deal you might be surprised to learn about the biggest fears of people who spent years, sometimes decades facing the prospect that they might have to ship off to a war zone, and face enemy fire. When I talked to some of our transitioning servicemembers now were talking about 2025 to 30 years. These are some very confident, strong individuals with a lot of talent right demonstrate a lot of leadership capability and date each and every single one of them that I have spoken with, without exception, scariest moment in their life wasn't easy 10 deployments where they receive maybe gunshot wound. It was looking for a job sector if you can believe that's Kimberly Williams, CEO of the group, North Carolina for military employment, also known as NCE for me.

She discussed military employment challenges during a recent online form for the John Locke foundation term with four Carolina Journal radio moment really influence you either have it or you don't and at the John Locke foundation we have it, you'll find our guiding principles in many of the freedom forward reforms of the past decade here in North Carolina. So while others talk or complain or name call.

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Widen your job opportunities improve your access to doctors. The recipe for stability and a bright future for truth for freedom for the future of North Carolina. We are the John Locke foundation. Welcome back to Carolina Journal radio Donna Martinez packing the US Supreme Court before election 2020 bring up that phrase and we all pretty much think of the FDR administration and the new Deal programs but once again in 2020 America we are hearing some progressives call very loudly to add seats to the United States Supreme Court. Rene Goforth is with the John Mark foundations wrote a fascinating column recently for Carolina about the history of packing the court she joined us down for a walk this out.

Thanks for having me in the piece you wrote Carolina you call packing the court and underhanded practice. Why so quick packing has been used.

Even back when it was originally no kind of brought out in your chart ministration. It was used, to get things past that she wanted past right so if you can get it through the legislature and you can get it signed by the president then the only thing that standing in your way of being able to keep that law long term is the United States Supreme Court and the 19th Supreme Court is meant to decide whether things are constitutional or unconstitutional, not whether they like them or not write this measure would fill the court with essentially, yes man for progressive legislation so that they wouldn't face any real true judicial review which would be an issue because I instead of deciding whether or not things are constitutional or not they would create a side of legal review that would allow for any legislation that they put out to just go unchecked to finish so that's what FDR tried to do a new Deal era, absolutely. And so that's obviously an issue because the buck has to stop somewhere and if it can't stop the Supreme Court.

Where is it going to stop we been hearing more and more about this separate much in relation to the fact that Pres. Trump had three appointments to the US Supreme Court during his first term and tells a bit more about time some of the calls today and what's going on and why right so after repair Ginsberg past and just anything that was appointed God's renewed calls for court packing because many people saw the court as to conservative now that it has a 63. No conservative lien or whatever you'd like to call it. And so people don't like it because they're worried that it's going to sway the country in a certain direction or maintain some sort of conservative status quo by the reality is that these justices are all people who are highly commendable, highly respectable, and to choose job once again is not to legislate from the bench, but is to decide whether things are constitutional or unconstitutional, and so I once we saw the appointment of an equally very renewed calls for court packing to be able to what people would say is balance the court by appears to be a measure to protect any sort of legislation and that they currently don't think they can get through with a constitutional determination that brings up all sorts of questions about the checks on power and the separation of the branches and I think your points. A good one about people who are thinking well if I can't get it done at the legislative level. Here's my chance at the at the judicial level.

If I can just get the "right people to be sitting on the court will just add seats until we get the ones we want absolutely and under FDR would have been as many as 15 so live that you know willing to do to get the court to have a particular makeup you mentioned in the late Ruth Bader Ginsburg and she made some comments about this issue. Yes, she did so Ginsberg was not a fan of court packing because the Supreme Court is supposed to be an apolitical institution. It's supposed to really just decide constitutional, unconstitutional, and she said that if anything would make the court look partisan. It would be court packing some legislature, you know, leaning one way and then deciding to fill the court with justices of their particular lien on and you know that says something because a lot of people have been saying that you know we should listen to what repair Ginsberg had to say before she passed to you know give us guidance on what to do with the Supreme Court now and it seems like if anything, she would be very against this interesting because she was a well-known progressive and yet it is people who are like-minded. Today, who are now calling for the very thing that she warned against. So one of those ironies that were seeing one of the things I really thought was so interesting about the piece you wrote for Carolina is that you look back at the FDR era and looked it for some historical references here in North Carolina.

What was the commentary like North Carolina. When this was going on. Yes. So I North Carolina has been traditionally more of a conservative state, so I even when FDR went back and proposed that even though he had large amounts of public support. We got quite a bit of criticism on court packing and you could see nationwide quite a bit of criticism. Political cartoons wait to pack FDR is a ventriloquist in all of these new potential appointees to the Supreme Court as wooden puppets and that people are very skeptical that as well as we hoped they would be now packing the court with as many justices as you can get in your favor.

And so one of the things that one of the commentaries and North Carolina newspapers sidewise Mr. Roosevelt's court packing initiative did greater violence to trust an American institution and anything other than the civil war going on very strong at the very bold tells you just how much people really opposed to this measure and the threat it could do to public trust in our institution Arbor Day. When I look at what happened during the FDR era and fast-forward to today and it seems like we are so off-track now. You are a younger generation than than I am, might be interested in your perspective on this.

It feels like we've reached a point now where when someone is nominated to the US Supreme Court, or even another federal bench. We now don't seem to agree on what it means to be qualified to actually be a judge where we go is a country when we can't even agree on that. It's very true. I mean a these things, you know court appointments back.

No waiver where it were not these political things.

They were people who were well respected being appointed to a badge because they were good at what they do and there qualified and that they know the law.

They know the Constitution as time has passed. They have gotten increasingly more political and it seems now that when you speak about Supreme Court justice appointments.

In particular, but even other quick appointments. It really is a measure of politics and you know presidents will say that they've done a wonderful job thing get as many justices on the bench as possible. It's unfortunate that we it seems that we can't separate politics from this process because it really is meant to be an apolitical one. And if we want to again sustain trust in our institutions than were really going to need to depoliticize this process once again. There was a time of course. When enough folks who were nominated to sit on the US Supreme Court would be approved by wide wide wide margins, and now it just seems to be whoever's in control of the U.S. Senate and we have these battles going on in these public hearings and that's not a good place to be. Now, not at all. It's a really interesting piece that Bernie has written a Carolina about court packing and at the history of that, I'd encourage everyone to take a look at that break. Thanks for joining us think that's all the time we have for Carolina Journal radio this week.

Thank you for listening on behalf of Mitch Coker. I'm Donna Martinez hope you'll join us again next week for another edition of Carolina Journal radio line. Journal radio is a program of the job. To learn more about the job on foundation donations support programs like Carolina Journal radio send email to development John Locke call 66 jail left 166-553-4636 Carolina Journal radio is the John line foundation, Carolina's free-market think tank and Carolina broadcasting system, Inc. all opinions expressed on this program and are solely those did not merely for the station formation about the show or other programs and services of the foundation. John line toll-free at 866 JL would like to thank our wonderful radio affiliates across Carolina and our sponsors. Carolina Journal radio. Thank you for listening. Please join us again next week

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