Making Marriage Easier | Arlene Pellicane

That's what I mean by easier. How can we take this thing called marriage and take kind of the sting out of it? How can we make things not so difficult to have a conversation maybe or to have date night?

You know, what are things we can do that are rhythms that we just start doing and it's not so hard anymore? Welcome to Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman, author of the New York Times bestseller, "The 5 Love Languages" . Is it possible to love your spouse for a lifetime? Is it possible to just like your spouse for a lifetime?

If that feels like an unattainable goal, we have some help and hope for you today. Author and speaker Arlene Pelicane is going to join us straight ahead and just in time for Valentine's Day. She's been working on her latest book for more than 25 years because that's how long she and her husband James have been married. Her goal is to make marriage easier and you'll find out what that means today.

Go to buildingrelationships.us. You'll see Arlene's book right there, Making Marriage Easier. And Gary, that goes right along with your ministry through the years with "The 5 Love Languages" and the other books that you've read. Yeah, that's what I've tried to do through the years, but I'm really glad that Arlene is joining in the marriage event here. You know, she's written a lot about children and relationships with children. She and I have written some books together. But I am really glad to have her on the program today.

I think our audience is going to really enjoy this and find it very helpful. Well, Arlene is a speaker, the author of a number of books, as Gary just mentioned, host of the Happy Home podcast. She's the spokesperson for National Marriage Week as well. We've talked about 31 days to a happy husband, growing up social, screen kids, and parents rising. If you go to buildingrelationships.us, her latest is right there, Making Marriage Easier, How to Love and Like Your Spouse for Life.

Just go to buildingrelationships.us. Well, Arlene, welcome back to Building Relationships. It's so wonderful to be back. Thank you so much for having me. Well, let's talk about the why of this book. It seems to me you want to share some hope for those who are thinking about marriage and also those that are already married and may be struggling.

Is that true? Yeah, I have two college-age students, and of students, children, and a high schooler. And I see that many of these, like, 20-somethings, 30-somethings that I'm meeting, they're like, ah, I don't know if I'm going to get married. I don't really want to get married.

That looks really hard. And so I'm kind of a little bit alarmed because I'll see this from good, solid Christian homes who had a very positive view of marriage. And then I'm thinking, like, why don't you want to get married? So the book partially is for younger people to say, wait a minute, this marriage thing sounds awesome.

I want to do this. So how can we make that easier for them, more attainable, something that they want? And then for those of us who are already married, you know that we hear things like, oh, it's so hard. It's so difficult. He's so ornery. She's so insensitive and unresponsive.

You know, you hear all these things. So just in the same way, when we know we have to do something, we think to ourselves, well, how do I make this easier? You know, that's just how we are. How can we make cooking easier? It's like, oh, we have all these things.

We get all the food in the box and then we prepare it ourselves. So for me, what I want to do for this book is like, you know, here's your marriage in a box, so to speak. Let's make it easier for you.

Not easy, because it's going to require effort, but easier. Yeah. Well, you describe in the book early on a backpacking trip that you made with your family.

What lessons did you learn from that experience? Yeah. So right off the gate, right out of the gate, it's like, okay, you're a hiker and a camper kind of person, and I'm like a lodge and a sit by the fire kind of person. And I think most couples are kind of like that. So this was a little bit, a lot of bit of give for me to say, okay, I will go in the wilderness with a 25 pound backpack with everything I need just on my back for three days.

I will go to the bathroom in the wild like I will do this to show my love. Right. So when, and this was, you know, near Mammoth Lakes in California, it was spectacularly beautiful.

You know, so I get that. And we're making these beautiful memories with our three children. Everyone is ecstatic, pretty much except me. So we're walking. And when it's beautiful and doable, I was like, this is fantastic. I am going to do this again. You can sign me up next year. I will join you. But when it was uphill for like two hours and I'm just struggling with that pack on my back or when we got to a patch of snow and it's like, wait a minute, I don't think we can pass this.

We need to find a different way. You know, when we were in those kinds of moments, I'm like, oh, no, I've done my due diligence. I came the one time.

I am not doing this again. And it reminded me as I'm walking, you know, I was I was working on this book, Making Marriage Easier as I'm on this hike. And it reminded me so much like, wow, this is like marriage, like when it's beautiful vistas and not that much effort. It's like, yeah, I love marriage.

Marriage is great. But when it's, wow, we've got financial difficulties. We're having trouble in the bedroom. We hardly talk anymore. Like, why are you on my case all the time? Then you're like, maybe this was the wrong journey.

Maybe maybe we should call it quits, you know. So it is this idea of you can look just like I saw the trail map and I could see like, oh, yeah, this is going to be difficult. I could see the little dotted lines going up and down. Right.

The elevation. But until you're actually there, you don't really know what how difficult it's going to be. But in that moment, you have to decide, I am going to finish this loop like I am going to get to the end. I will I will see this through. I remember on the trip, I said to James, if I could pay someone five thousand dollars to airlift me out of this spot. I actually think I would. But you know, marriage is not like that.

You cannot pay to get out. You know, you have to say like, hey, I started this. I made this vow. I'm going to finish it. And just having that mindset of, hey, this is what I chose. It's going to have highs. It's going to have lows. And I'm going to go through it all. That makes marriage easier because then you're not always thinking, how do I get out?

You know, what can I do? Yeah. Yeah. Well, talk about that word easier. That's that's part of the title. Yes.

What do you mean by easier? You know, when you make that decision, like I'm going to get healthier, so I'm going to go to the gym and I'm going to get by my gym membership. But then you never go. Right.

It's like, oh, that was fun. I went for two weeks and then I never go. So I might make that easier by saying I will go to a specific class once a week.

And then I might have a friend meet me at that specific class and we might make a bet that if you don't show up to the class, you owe me the next lunch. And then I'll put my shoes. If I'm a woman, I'll put my shoes and my little outfit out right next to my bed so that I know what to do. And what have I done? I've made it easier. I've made it like, OK, now I'm actually going to go because my clothes are set.

The decisions have been made. There's something that will happen to me if I don't do it and I can't let this person down that I'm meeting. And so that's what I mean by easier. How can we take this thing called marriage and take kind of the sting out of it? How can we make things not so difficult to have a conversation maybe or to have date night? You know, what are things we can do that are rhythms that we just start doing and it's not so hard anymore? Yeah. Well, I think those who will read the book are going to find that it's true. It can be easier.

Yes. Now, for those listening who are struggling in their marriage, Valentine's Day is coming up and they don't really feel love for their spouse. I remember when I was there way back in my marriage. What do you say to them? First, I'm sorry that you're in that spot.

It's a hard spot. I think it starts with that prayer. Lord, I've made this commitment to my spouse. Help me to see my spouse like you see them. Help me to want to serve my spouse. Help me to want to reach out to them and not give up.

So start there. And then just think about, you know, there are many times we don't want to go to work. We don't feel like going to work, but we go. There are times where I don't feel like doing laundry, but I do it. You know, there are a lot of things in life that we do, even if we don't feel it. I think of even at worship at church, if you're to sing, but you don't feel like singing that particular morning.

But guess what? When you decide I will sing, I will praise, like I'm going to do that, those feelings follow. Like you start singing praise to God.

You start thanking him for he is good and his love endures forever. Those feelings then will follow. And it is the same in your marriage that when you think, OK, I don't feel like loving you, but I will act in a loving way. I will act kindly.

I will act with service. Then not long thereafter, I think those feelings will follow. So don't pursue the feeling or use the feeling as a barometer because our feelings will lie to us. Our feelings, you know, they can say, you know, oh, he's so difficult.

He never, you know, he never notices you. And you start listening to those feelings and you get kind of in a huff. But if you say to yourself, no, no, no, no, wait, what is the truth of this matter? Hey, I made a commitment. I'm going to look for what's good.

And those feelings will follow. Arlene, in the book, you made four decisions with your husband, James, that have made marriage easier for you. Can you tell us what those four decisions were?

Yeah, and these work, whether you're newlyweds or you've been married for 50 years. The decision number one, play by the rules. Predecide what your will do and what you won't do.

So this is again, like we were talking about earlier, don't follow feelings. Follow the commands of God. So, you know, in the Bible, Psalm 1 tells us that blessed is the one who delights in the law of the Lord. So it's like, I love these rules because these rules bring me life. So that's the idea here. Like there are rules to marriage and they're found in God's word.

And if you love to follow them, you're going to do really well. So decision one, play by the rules. Decision two, give thanks every day. So every day you're finding something in your marriage to be thankful for. You're saying, thank you, God, for my spouse.

Thank you that you're with us. So it is just this attitude in your home that is rooted in gratefulness, in gratitude, and not in, you know, complaining and wishing you had someone else's life. Decision number three, serve your spouse. And I use you and Carolyn in the book area here that how can you serve your spouse and how can you say, what can I do for you instead of, well, what have you done for me lately?

Because those are two very different people to live with. And then decision number four is take fun seriously. You know, when you were dating and falling in love, it was all about fun. And then you get the mortgage, you get the kids, you get work, you're on the internet all the time, and all of a sudden everything's so serious and nothing is fun. And you stop having fun together and you think that that's just an extra that you can't afford.

Well, I'm here to tell you, you can't afford not to have fun because it is the fun that brought you together and helps you keep together. Yeah, yeah. Okay, I want to go back to that first one, play by the rules. In that section, you describe what you call the power hour. What is the power hour? This one, you guys are going to love this because it involves eating. We love eating, right? So the power hour is having meals together.

And I'm sure, Dr. Chapman, that this was something that people did without even having to bring it up, right? People used to eat together. But now if you ask people, you know, think about it for your own home, think of it for your friends, how many meals a week do you guys eat together? A lot of people will say like, oh, you know, just a few because usually we just grab our food and then everybody goes into their own rooms and does their homework or watches sports or whatever it is, right? So this power hour is the rhythm of eating together with your spouse every single day.

Now, I know people are going to say, wait a minute, that's legalistic. Or, you know, what if I'm hungry? You mean I have to wait for my spouse to come home?

So this is it. We never signed on the dotted line, thou may not eat until I get here, you know. But it's just the rhythm of, hey, we normally eat dinner together.

You know, obviously if you're out of town, you can't do that. If you're separate, obviously I get that. But we will eat together. We'll wait for each other if it's reasonable. You know, in our home, it's kind of like if it's after 7 o'clock, it's like, OK, sorry, buddy, we got to eat.

But it's, it's something, a rhythm that this is normal. It would feel abnormal if we didn't sit down and eat together. This could be dinner. This could be, you know, maybe you're very busy in the, in the, on the evening, so you have to actually schedule a lunch date with your, with your spouse.

That's OK. It's what you used to do when you're dating. Maybe it just looks like drinking your coffee together in the morning. But it is this idea that every single day we will connect over some kind of food, right, or coffee, because it gives you then like friendship. You need friendship and companionship. And if you don't have space for that, then everyone gets busy. And then that's why you feel like, wow, we don't even hardly know each other anymore.

So start with that power. I thought about we've been married over 25 years. We've pretty much eaten a meal every day together since we said I do. So I thought that is like 10,000 meals together. So you think to yourself, wait a minute, if I have 10,000 meals with someone, I'm going to be pretty close to them. So eat together. And I know you would also say, don't answer your cell phone while you're eating. Even don't even have it on the table.

Put it away so you don't even see it. That's exactly right. You know, I could not agree more with this.

It's just powerful. And, you know, when the kids come along, then you're eating with the kids and your spouse. And we did that through all those years. Our kids are grown now, of course. They look back and say, those are one of the fondest memories we have, sitting around the table, talking about life together, sharing life together.

So great for the marriage, great for the kids. You also deal with sexual intimacy in this section. Yeah, I'm often asked the question, how much sex is normal or healthy for a couple? I don't know how you answer that or if you answer that, but give us some thoughts along those lines.

Do you believe it or not, you will find this in the book, but I'm leaning on the research of Dr. Michael Sistema and Shanti Felton on this one. But the chapter is called But We Had Sex Last Tuesday, you know, because for usually it's the woman, it doesn't always have to be. But for the woman, it's kind of like, well, wait, we did that like a long time ago. Isn't that enough?

And for the husband, he's thinking like, well, no, this is something that I want to do to connect with you. No, it's not enough. So, you know, that has definitely been something through the years. And I think a lot of people can relate to that is, OK, one person wants a certain amount and the other person wants a certain amount. How do you kind of meet in the middle and how much is normal? So what they found in terms of research of what was normal is the researchers found that four times every three weeks was normal. I know some of you are like, oh, it's not four times every week.

OK, great. Four times every three weeks. So they said one and one third time basically per week. And they also were quick to say, though, that's what is normal. It's what people are doing. It doesn't mean that that's the ideal.

It's just kind of what people are doing. But they did find that ninety four percent of those who said, hey, we are happy and satisfied with our sexual relationship. Ninety four percent of those people have said they were also happy in their marriages, which which follows like if you're having healthy physical intimacy, it lends to that you have a healthy marriage. And they also said that people who couples who had sex one time a week or more were satisfied.

So these are you know, these are things that you can look at, like, OK, my goodness, maybe it's been too long. And my husband and I, we need to put, you know, I would think it was Dr. David Clark who said, if you're a couple with children and you do not schedule your sex, you do not have sex. Right. So sometimes in some parts of your time of the season of life you're in, you have to put it in the calendar and not feel unromantic about that, but feel like, OK, our relationship is important.

So I'm going to make time for this. Yeah. No question about it. The sexual part of the marriage is an important part of marriage.

And you're right. We do have different ideas most of the time in terms of how often, et cetera, you know, but this is helpful. My other book, 31 Days to a Happy Husband, I remember when I was writing that one of James's friends was like, why do you need 31 days? All you have to do is like, say, make love to your husband and he'll be very happy. So I thought, you know, when you think of making marriage easier, I think for many men, they would just think like, oh, well, if we could be more intimate physically, that would make marriage a lot easier for me. Yeah.

Yeah. One of the problems that many marriages face is the change in the marriage relationship once the kids come along. So how do you keep your marriage from becoming all about the kids? I think this is really a modern problem. I think, you know, in the days of, you know, like maybe a generation or two, it's like you saw the kids were part of the home, but they weren't the everything of the home.

Right. So when a baby comes into your lives, of course, like when Ethan was born, it was like Simba and the Lion King was like, look who has come and all of your life revolves around keeping this baby alive. And that's okay, because you really do have to revolve around that baby to keep it alive. But once the baby turns two, five, 10, 15, you've got to realize, wait a minute, our whole universe doesn't revolve around this child.

But for a lot of us, we might not see it, but we really are very child centered. So things like this, you know, me as a mom, if I need to bring my kids to school and then I need to go get them something for a sport, you know, they need something. And then I'm going to watch them play their sport and then I'm going to run home and have make dinner. Like, I'm not going to think a thing of this. I'm just going to do it because that's what I do. I'm the mom. But if my husband, James, who is a realtor, says, Hey, honey, could you look over this letter for me and just see, does this sound right to you? I'm like, I have so much to do. Like, you're a grown man. Look at it yourself.

Use Grammarly, you know. So I think sometimes if we can just think to ourselves, do I treat my spouse with the same type of service, willingness, time, speaking their love languages? Do I do that as much for my spouse as I do it for my kids?

And I think for many of us, we'd have to go, ouch, like, I don't really do that. So when the kids have an activity, let's say, and you're trying to decide, OK, should we do soccer again? Should we go on the volleyball team?

Should we play the clarinet? You know, usually we're asking all these questions because we are looking through the lens of our child. But when we make those decisions, let's also ask, how is this going to impact our marriage?

Seriously, like, how is this going to impact us? Are we going to be not able to see each other very much? Are we going to be so ragged that we're kind of, you know, kind of mean to each other? We don't have time to have date night.

We don't have time for, you know, all the things that we just talked about. You know, so we have to ask that. How is it for the marriage? How is it for the rhythm of the family?

So these are the kinds of questions. If you are not going on a date because even though you have a trusted babysitter, you feel like, oh, the kids don't like it when we go out. You know, that's a sign of a child-centered home that says, you know what, child of mine, it's okay that you don't like it, that mommy and dad, you're leaving for two hours, but we're going to go ahead and do that anyway. So those kinds of things kind of help us from becoming too child-centered. Yeah. And I've always felt that having an intimate marriage, loving, caring, supportive marriage is one of the most powerful things we can do for our children. You know, giving them that kind of model is so important.

Totally. Of course, the big part of that is also learning how to listen. And in the book, you give tips on becoming a better listener. Why is listening so important?

And what are some of those tips? Yeah, listening shows I'm interested in you. I care about you. And Dr. Chapman, I thought, I am a good listener.

You know, I've just always thought about that about myself. I'm a good listener. And then I realized, oh, no, I'm not a good listener.

So these are the tips I learned in my own marriage. And we read a book about it. And then James told me about it. It's like, oh, yeah, that does sound like me. The first kind of listener is an assumptive listener.

And that's how I am, is you assume you know what the person's talking about. So for me, I'm always finishing James's sentences. He'll say like, oh, I want to volunteer for this thing. And I'll say, oh, yeah, they really need volunteers. And you're so good at this.

And you'd be so great at that. And he's like, uh, actually, I was going to say something totally different. So he'll joke like, do you want to try again?

You know, that's kind of his line. That means Arlene, please stop filling my mouth with words. And please just listen to me and don't assume that you know what I'm going to say. And please let me finish. So an assumptive listener, if you catch yourself, you know, and it's, I feel like it comes from this place of wanting them to feel like, oh, I know exactly what you're saying.

I'm tracking with you. But for me, it means shut your mouth, let them finish, and then comment about it. So the assumptive listener.

The second is the fixer. And a lot of times, you know, this can be the husband of you're saying something, and then they just come in and fix it. And you're thinking, I didn't want it fixed. I just want you to listen. And so that's really helpful if you just tell them, hey, I just want to tell you about the stress I'm feeling right now.

I do not want you to fix it. And a lot of times that does it. And then you can tell it. And then they're like, oh, that sounds like a lot.

And everybody's happy. And then the third type is the celebrity listener. And I think we are all the celebrity listener. And the celebrity listener, we're always shifting the conversation back to us.

So if my husband is sharing about his terrible boss, that is being very challenging, then I'm like, oh, I remember when I had this terrible boss, and I just take the whole conversation and I make it about me. And so just think of like a spotlight on the other on the person who is talking. And when they are talking, they are the celebrity. You are not the celebrity.

They are the celebrity. Let them have their moment and just be there for their moment. You don't have to turn every single one of their moments into an opportunity to talk about yourself and watch yourself because we all do this.

We all do this. And so just be sensitive to it. You know, obviously, there is give and take, and it's fine to share your stories, you know, that's fine. But the idea is whoever is the speaker, you're the focus of attention, not me, the listener. Yeah, I think a lot of our listeners are identifying with those responses that you talked about.

Now, your husband, James, put some interesting items on your wedding registry. What did those teach you about having different expectations? Yeah, people are very different, aren't they?

So they come in. We were long distance. So I was living in Virginia, and he was living in Texas when we were engaged. So I told him, you go to the superstore, you take the little scanner, and you get whatever you want.

Great. So I walk into the store in my city, and I print out the wedding registry, and I'm reading it. And I'm like, wait a minute, it had all this camping equipment, which makes sense considering our conversation earlier.

So it had a tent and a little cooking thing and a lamp. And I'm thinking, why in the world do we need this, you know? So I keep reading. And then I read like bug spray, like there's like wasps, like things that you would spray to get rid of wasps and ants. And then there was aspirin, like Advil and Tylenol and Tums, and I'm just getting sweaty and nervous, right? And then I can't believe it. I think I'm like, I can't believe my eyes. He has lubricant, KY Jelly on the list, and I am just freaking out. And I think to myself, wait a minute.

Okay, oh, I get it. This must be a practical joke. He must be sending all his groomsmen to this store, and he thinks this is so funny.

That sounds so like James. That's so funny. We did not have cell phones at that time, of course. So I call, I went home, called him on the phones. Honey, that's so funny.

I was just at the store, and I saw your registry with the ant bait. And that's so funny. Like a practical joke.

And he was completely silent. And he's like, what's so funny? And like the things you put on the registry.

That was funny. He's like, those are the things I want for my home. I don't want a candy dish. I don't want a set of plates.

Those are practical things I need for our first apartment. And I'm like, what? So I could not believe Dr. Jamin and Chris that I was the one on the defense, like I'm the one who has to defend that you put Tums on our wedding registry. So I tried to think of a word picture, right? Because that's what they tell you.

We use a word picture in our counseling. We were learning this. So I said, imagine you went to the queen and you wrapped a beautiful gift and she opened it and it was Windex.

That would be inappropriate, right? So I guess it worked enough so that we took everything off the list except the camping equipment. So I was so pleased. But it was funny because I thought I was so right. Like, and he was so wrong. And then I realized, oh, my goodness, in his eyes, what he did was right.

Because when we did get to that apartment, there were a lot of bugs in that Texas apartment and we could use some Tylenol. So you realize with the expectations like, oh, my goodness, I think you were so wrong. But actually, in your own eyes and in your own way, you're right, too. So to really give each other the benefit of the doubt that, okay, your expectation is valid, just as mine is.

Yeah. Arlene, in the book, you talk about various decisions. And one of those decisions is about transferring the atmosphere of your home from complaining to giving thanks. Why is complaining such a danger in a marriage?

Yeah, to give thanks every day, that decision. You know, think about if you have a person in your life who is always saying, oh, it's too hot. Oh, she was so rude. Oh, I can't believe they served me this.

This is the wrong order. Like, do you want to be around this person? Right? Like, we're like, this is not a pleasant person to be around. And I think with strangers or with casual acquaintances, even with our friends, we can show that common courtesy of not complaining. But with our spouses, you know, and even with our kids, we can kind of let it all go loose right at home and just be grumbling and complaining.

And that is a very unattractive person to be with, and really not very fun to be yourself, too. And so what can change that? What can transform that spirit of grumbling and complaining?

And let's remember the children of Israel, when they were wandering around the desert and they could not enter the Promised Land, it wasn't for those big sins of murder or idolatry, like they made another calf or adultery. It was they were complaining. They had a grumbling attitude that this manna isn't enough. This quail, we didn't really like it. We liked it the first day. After that, we didn't like it.

This whole cloud by day, fire by night, we're over it. Like these were miraculous ways God was taking care of his children. And his children were like, we don't really like this. And they grumbled. And you see that harsh consequence because it was the opposite of being thankful to God, being thankful.

Thank you for what I had. So in a marriage, if you can transform from, Oh, my goodness, I can't believe you did that. You're always doing that wrong.

You always leave the toilet seat up, blah, blah, blah, blah. Instead of grumbling that we are thankful. I'm really thankful you're alive. I mean, if you have to start there, there are a lot of people who have lost their spouses or their spouses are gravely ill, and they do anything for a spouse that walks around, you know, so for you, just start being grateful. Turn that to God, because that's what what God wants us to do.

We know that give thanks to God and and start giving thanks for your marriage. But it's amazing how much that could transform the atmosphere, isn't it? Yes. Thanks, rather than complaining. Yeah.

But if you have that pattern, it, you know, you may have to ask God to help me, Lord, help me, you know, my natural tendency here. Yeah. Another topic you deal with is social media, and how it impacts marriages. What can a couple do to help eliminate some of the harmful effects of social media? Recognizing that what you see on social media is not real life. You know, when you looked at a magazine or a TV show, you knew like, Oh, they spent hours like making their house look so nice, or Oh, that's like just for the camera. It's this TV show. But now we have in our pockets, social media that shows us like our friends.

And I say that kind of in air quotes, like people like us, like our peers. But it also shows us celebrities and all sorts of people who have, you know, that's their whole job is to make their house or their marriage look super, super amazing and happy. And when you look at that constantly, you'll think, Well, I don't have that. I don't have a house like that. I don't have a cute spouse like that. I don't go to fun locales with my spouse.

And all of a sudden, what does this do? We're not thankful. We're comparing, and we're falling short. And so if you realize, Wait a minute, this is really not helping me in my marriage. Because think of it, how much social media helps you like, Oh, that really supported my marriage. You know what I mean? Like, like, hopefully, the kid could come and they'll see something that you create something that I create.

And hopefully, that will help them think, Oh, you know, let's let's do this thing. But believe me, my social media falling is a whole lot tinier than most, right? So what we're normally seeing is not supportive to your marriage. You're looking at an advertisement, you're looking at something to buy, you're looking at someone that you wish you had their life. And so recognize that.

And if that's a problem, take a fact. Say, Hey, you know what, for one week, I'm not going to do any social media and just see what that does to your mind, to your heart, to your outlook. Be open. If you ask your spouse, Hey, am I on my phone too much? Do you feel like I'm like scrolling through social media too much? Because your spouse may say, Yeah, I kind of wish you were more present with me.

And you'd look at me. You know, it could be sports, it could be checking stock quotes, it could be Netflix, it could be anything. But be here. You know, and I talk about that a lot. You know, and I talk about like, when you go on vacation, your vacation is to be together. It's not to make a social media reel. You know, a lot of us will get to a spot and think, Oh, this would be such a beautiful thing to post on social media.

And then the whole thing becomes making this amazing thing for social media. And I say, No, take a few pictures, put your phone in your pocket and enjoy that for your spouse. He is your audience.

She is your audience, not all these thousands of followers who don't even hardly know you. So keep all that in mind. Keep all these kinds of things in mind that the real relationship of your spouse, that's what's most important to tend and care for, not your social media feed. Well, we know that in marriage, there are hard times and marriages are tested in the hard times. You talk about a miscarriage you had at 26 weeks. How did you and your husband navigate that loss? Yeah, you know, and I think people grieve in different ways, you know, so I kind of wanted to talk about it.

James was maybe a little bit more quiet about it. And there was, you know, you're at different places in it. So one might be going further along.

And then one might be taking a little bit longer, right? So just be sensitive to that, that you deal with difficulties in different ways be available to each other. But I really think that when we lost that baby, it was such a time where God carried us when the Lord helped us like we'd be at church, and the exact right, you know, song would come, or someone would pray over us, and it would be exactly what we needed for that day.

So be immerse yourself with spiritual people who love you, care about you, and who can speak truth and comfort in your life. So I think that was a huge thing, to be able to navigate that together. And then to be able to, you know, have, I think it's that mindset that says the difficulties will strengthen us. They won't weaken us because they can because then you've gone through this thing together, and no one else has gone through it.

But you, the two of you, that's it. You know, you are the ones that were in the eye of the storm. And if you can be in the eye of the storm together, come out on the other side, boom, it just it levels up your relationship. And I know for many, though, when that eye of the storm hits, it's like it just throws them opposite directions, right?

And that difficulty really harms them. So I think if you can be praying together, if you can find like, you know, like I mentioned, going to church, you know, be regular. Don't skip going to church because you're going through a hard time.

Go to church together and find that healing together as a couple. Yeah, yeah. You know, another decision you talk about is the importance of serving your spouse. Now, I think there are a lot of people today who have the notion that, well, that's an old fashioned idea serving because they have the idea of, you know, the wife is going to, he's going to take advantage of me. All I got to do is serve him. But explain that to us. What is biblical service? Yeah, you look at Jesus, right? And what do the Gospels tell us? The Son of Man came to serve.

We cannot get around it. So as much as we think, I don't want to serve that I want someone to serve me, you know, or I want to be their equal, right? That would be more like I want to be their equal. I don't need to serve them. They need to respect me. But this whole idea of you know what, I care about you. And if there's something I can do to help you, I will. So I think it is this attitude of I will help you. It's not this attitude of like, oh, I'm just so less than and you can step all over me and I'm not even worthy, you know, to bring you your water. No, that's not what I'm talking about. But it is this idea of like, hey, I'm around to make your life easier.

I mean, can you imagine if each spouse that was their thought of like, hey, you know what? I'm here today. I'm here to make your life easier.

And if you approached it that way, you need something. How can I help you? You know, my daughter, she's a sophomore in high school. She is, you know, like this particular day, she has to stay after school because she has this dance recital.

So she kind of is busy. So in the morning, I'll say, how can I help you? Can I, you know, usually she makes her lunch herself, all these different things, but she's got more to do to get ready. So I say, you know, how can I help you? So again, we do it kind of easily with our children, but in the same, and so does that mean she's going to walk all over me? No, as long as she has responsibilities, no, she's going to be like, thank you, mom.

Thank you for helping me. So for our spouses to have that same attitude, oh, boy, honey, you have a big day at work today. How can I help you today? You know, that's serving your spouse. And that's something really beautiful in life giving.

It is not demeaning or punitive. You know, that question that you worded, how can I make your life easier, is one of the questions that literally turned my marriage around. When I asked my wife, started asking her on a regular basis, how can I make your life easier today? How can I make your life easier? And she typically had an idea, you know.

She said, pick up the vacuum. Yeah, when I did that, you know, I mean, she felt, you know, treasured and loved. Yeah. So yeah, that's super important. It's a Christian lifestyle, really, you know, because that's what love is all about.

It's serving other people. Now, you and your husband were on the Today Show, which was a dream for you. How can spouses support one another's dreams? Yeah, I think this was such a funny situation, because I was asked for one of my books to come on the Today Show. But they said you can only come if we like your husband, because we want him to come also. So they asked, does your husband have any videos of him that we can watch?

And of course, my husband, he's just like a normal guy. He's not like a, you know, YouTube sensation. But he had posted a YouTube video of him making kettle corn, like an instructional video of how to make kettle corn. So I thought to myself, oh, my goodness, my appearance on the Today Show is contingent upon this kettle corn video. It was kind of funny. But thankfully, they said, oh, well, he can talk.

He'll be fine. So they had him on. And I thought to myself, what a husband, because I at that time had done interviews and many of them in the past. But this was James's first ever media interview. He'd never been interviewed in his entire life. And he's going on the Today Show, you know, so it's like go big or go home.

And so I really admired that he was like, he didn't even hesitate. Yes, I will do that. That would be great for you.

I will do that. And we practice. We put little stools up in our house. And I asked him questions and he sat on the stool and he answered my questions. We even set up an event at our church where we did a little informal Q&A so that people could ask us questions and he could get used to giving answers.

Like, I mean, this is amazing. This is my husband that he will like, oh, let me learn. I will grow. I will do it.

I will help you. So having this attitude, you know, of hey, if if this is important to you, then it's important to me too. Now, I give this this little side note, though, if it's the kind of dream that has become an obsession, right? It's like, everything is about this dream and the marriage is falling apart and the kids are falling apart and you never sleep anymore because you're pursuing this dream. You know, dreams should unite you as a couple, not divide you.

And if you're finding that, yeah, it's hard, but it's actually dividing us, you know, then it's time to talk about it. Is this a dream that we both can get behind to support one another? And it should be something that enhances your marriage, not detracts from it.

Yeah, yeah. Well, we talked a bit earlier about the importance of fun in a marriage. And I know in your book, you have a long list really of activities that husbands and wives can try together. And of course, we all have different interests in that sort of thing. But could you share some of the things you and your husband do for fun that might help the rest of us?

Yes. And you will find a very long list in the book that is something you're going to find something that you have in common. So for my husband and I, it has been hard to find fun things because he's much more athletic. And I am not, he is very outdoorsy. And I am not, you know, so it's like, Oh, my goodness, what are we going to do? So part of the thing is having the attitude like, Okay, if you like it, I'll try it. So we have done everything from rollerblading to skiing, to martial arts, to dancing, to ultimate frisbee, to, you know, all these different things. And what we have kind of settled on right now, we are in the age of dancing. So we are going to a ballroom dance class. So we're learning how to waltz and foxtrot and salsa and tango and all this stuff. And it's very funny, because the first time we went, you know, it's this huge ballroom and there are lessons there. But it's all you know, people probably age 60 and up who dance.

really well. So we got there. And we do not know what we're doing. It's as if a neon sign was over our heads, like we are new. And we are terrible. You know, so all these people came up to us. And they're trying to help us. And we're trying to imitate what they do.

I mean, I thought for sure that first lesson, I'm like, we are never coming back here. Like we are really bad at this. But you know what, we kept going. And we're a year in. And we're actually decent where we can get better.

And we're actually decent where we can get around the floor now. And we figured it's something we can do together. It's something it is fun, like it, we both think it's fun. And then we realized as we get older, like you can keep doing this. So for us right now, it's dancing, we play Ultimate Frisbee with our kids, which is kind of like soccer with the Frisbee.

So a lot of running and you're scoring goals. And we started that during COVID playing every Sunday afternoon. And believe it or not, since 2020 till today, we are still playing every afternoon. And with other families and people and it's, it's we never want to go by we, I mean, Lucy and I, my daughter and I, we are like, Oh, we have to go again. We're so lazy.

We don't want to go. But every time we go, we have a lot of fun. So sometimes with the fun, you kind of drag your feet on it, like I don't want to go do that a lot of effort. But after it's over, you're like, that was hilarious. That was really fun. So those are a few of the fun things we do. I think that long list that you have in the book is going to be helpful to some people, because there's some who are hearing the thing you and James have done. So I could never do that. Yeah, I don't want to do that. Yeah, there are much more quieter things to do. Yeah, but the list covers a lot of personality types.

I think people will find those to be helpful. Now, you and your husband, James, have been married now for 26 years. And you say that of all ages, at all ages in a marriage, people should be preparing for the golden years. So how do you how do you prepare for the golden years? And what are you all doing?

Yeah, we're so short term sometimes, right? We just think like, how can I get through the day without realizing, hey, the habits I have today, that affects the quality of my life tomorrow, you know, and when we think of these senior years, golden years, you know, now James and I are in our 50s. So now it's not as we used to think that 55 plus thing where there were really old people. Now we're like, oh, no, those people are not old at all. Those are very young people.

So how can we prepare for those things? And part of it is liking each other, right? So that when your kids leave and you're empty nesters, you still like one another.

Well, how do you do that? How what what made you like them in the first place? You had fun together. You cared about each other, you had conversations, you had novel experiences. So some of the things you can do to prepare now for those golden years is keep being together, like, you know, decide, obviously, I'm going to stay married, but then really keep showing up, go to the date nights, you know, make that a priority.

Try novel experiences, whether it's you know, that we, it doesn't have to be an athletic pursuit, it could be a cooking class, you know, try a novel experience together. So that you're used to growing and learning so that when you're in your later years, you still have that rhythm that you can keep learning and growing that that would be fun. You know, they, they talked about in a book about how what makes a happy retiree by Wes Moss. And they talked about that happy retirees have 3.6 core pursuits together. So in other words, they have about three or four activities they like to do together.

That could be taking grandkids out. Playing chess, you know, going on vacation to a, you know, to Hawaii, you know, so they but there are things they like to do together. So if that's what makes us happy in the golden years, why not have a little practice now, right? So so do those things together.

So that when it comes time, you're used to doing those things. You know, the big thing now with a lot of our friends is pickleball. That's right. Have you given it a try Dr. Chapman? I have not given it a try. Now I have to be honest, I have not but so many of our friends have. And of course, some of our friends have also gotten injured in pickleball. It comes at a bit of a cost.

You're right. Well, Arlene, this has been fun chatting with you again. Of course, I've always enjoyed being with you and James and your family and interfacing with them along the way. And the books you and I have written together.

I've always enjoyed doing that. But so good to have you with us today. And thanks for writing this book that really focuses on marriage. And I think whether couples are dating and thinking about marriage, this book would be a good book to work through together, or whether you've been married for a while.

Either way, I think it's going to be helpful. So again, thanks for being with us today. Thank you so much.

It's been so fun. Again, our featured resource is the book Making Marriage Easier, How to Love and Like Your Spouse for Life. It's written by our guest Arlene Pelicane. And you can find out more at buildingrelationships.us. Again, go to buildingrelationships.us. Well, a big thank you to our production team, Steve Wick and Janice Backing. Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman is a production of Moody Radio in Chicago in association with Moody Publishers. Thanks for listening.