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Colleen's Cancer Journey

Building Relationships / Dr. Gary Chapman
The Truth Network Radio
September 3, 2022 1:00 am

Colleen's Cancer Journey

Building Relationships / Dr. Gary Chapman

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September 3, 2022 1:00 am

Like you, she had high hopes for life, but instead endured years of deep depression, fought through chronic pain and illness, and gave birth to a child with health complications.  On top of that, she heard the words, “Cancer, Stage four, Terminal.”  So, what would lead her to write a book called, In the Hands of a Fiercely Tender God?  Meet Colleen Choa on the next Building Relationships with Gary Chapman.

Featured resource: In the Hands of a Fiercely Tender God by Colleen Choa

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If you felt discouraged, worn down, or are thirsting for.

You need rest and renewal in Devonport supposed to be coming out and I want to invite you to join the new women's conference for a time of deep encouragement and challenging you hear from me. Author Heather Bowman and so many more wise and wonderful women learn more and sign up for renewal, 20, 22, including events or God has you suffering in such powerful ways to work on my heart and my brain and my habits and it's such a gift from him. I would not go back in and change any of the seasons because of the fruit and the beauty that schematics and welcome to Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman, author of the New York Times bestseller the five love today. If you're going through his suffering want to do more than simply through it. Author Colleen sow's ear historian and faith. Don't miss the conversation straight colleagues will is a resource early October in the hands of God.

31 days of open honesty suffered someone no conversation. Find out more about the hands of God lead books.for Gary you have walked through some deep water with family members, friends in your church. Through the years. Suffering comes all of us doesn't screws can be physical and emotional broken relationships with loss of job. Life is filled with with difficult situations that bring a lot of pain. I think any of our listeners are going to identify with our topic today and so I really am excited they were able to do this with someone whose walk the journey was said before we get started, we reached out to Colleen at the end of May for this conversation about the book that she has been living and if you go to Moody and click the Moody radio microphone you find out more about this resource. It's excellent Colleen Chow CHA oh is written extensively about finding God's goodness in the unexpected chapters of her life including singleness, chronic illness, and now terminal cancer. She's worked as an editor and writer and English teacher featured resource is her book in the hands of a fiercely tender God.

31 days of hope, honesty and encouragement for the sufferer again to find out more at calling welcome to Building Relationships.

Thank you so much. It's an honor, and joy to be with you this morning. I'm excited for listeners to hear your story today so tell us about the calling as a little girl. What were your hopes and dreams. In those years I was at big dreamer. I had a long list of dreams and a few that is included becoming a pastor missionaries life and having kids and I just was a big big thinker big dreamer so I thought I would have a big influence, even at a young age I started desiring to do things that went influence people and so now that the date the biggest ones were being a wife and a mom thing.

Many women die with that and for some that is a reality for others, but never really works out for them. Was there a pivotal spiritual moment early on when you knew that God was calling you to himself. Yes, actually simple understanding of salvation made a simple salvation decision at around four years old and how can that I came to understand what it meant to want Jesus to be Lord of my life and the word came alive. At 11 years old. It just I couldn't get enough. I was in every day and that's when I points you each. That's when I started seeing my heart really change, and really experiencing the beginnings of that relationship with Christ. I think for many of us there is a first step get a very young age, and a little later on.

We understand more of what that means to let him control in our lives. Are you married later than you thought you might. How would you describe your singleness were you content and those in that season I yes singleness was both difficult and beautiful. It was rich and exciting.

I did so many neat things during that time. So many I was involved in a lot of neat ministries and got to experience a relationship with a lot of people and travel and really needs season of life. But it was also not what I really wanted. I was learning how to make the most of it and in the midst of that I had to fight for contentment. It was not at all a normal thing in the circles. I ran and I was the only single apart from another. One other friend, a little younger than myself, and no one was really ahead of me to show me what it looks like, so I was in a world of couples and families, and I just it was disorienting.

I just didn't know how to walk it and so even as it was so fruitful and rich and exciting and I saw God working in that time I wrestled hard with God, and I was I was angry sometimes. I remember screaming into my pillow. I mean, there are just times where I was falling apart because this was not my plan. This wasn't what I pictured and I didn't have any frame of reference for how to let it so it was both beautiful and bitter and that is the season where I learned started learning how to go to God with my unedited emotions and the cries of my heart, and unfulfilled longings and see you just be honest with him and taken at his word. Even though I can see what he was doing. I was learning how to bank on who he said he was in Scripture and I started changing my heart and teaching me his love, and that's when I experienced his love for the first time in such a real dynamic way on the daily guessing there are a number of single adults who are hearing yesterday with what you're saying because I think for most of us we desire to someday be married and we think it's not going to be one 3140 or 50/we could in your marriage was useful. 49. She said that a lot of things in A lot of things, but always will be married to but I like what you said about being open and honest with God about your feelings. You know will hurt his feelings.

Did you ever struggle with achieving and performing in order to feel more worthwhile absolutely.

That was a struggle from way back from me from the very beginning of my life. Really, as far back as I can remember, but I think it was exacerbated during singleness because I was trying to prove my profile is existing apart from being a wife and a mom in these circles where that's all I knew I yes I definitely struggled with trying to prove my worth and what I was doing in accomplishing and how I was making the most of my time and I remember just even saying things to people just trying to justify my existence at that point and got so patient with me and he was working with me through that false belief that I had to perform and especially with him. He just kept speaking to me through his word and my times in his presence, just that I was absolutely accepted and precious and valuable to them, just as I was.

And yet he loved me enough to not leave me right what is right that was on him that wasn't on me to have to achieve our produce, and I started learning how to be, you know, just be instead of do do do, but that that was a long journey for me oh Lord has 33 and we met my brother Jonathan invited me to join his college and career group and I was a little older. Everybody else I'm four years older than my husband and so I was, not really. I didn't really belong in the group, but I showed up and we all jumped into different cars to drive into Los Angeles for the day and I ended up in my future husband's car in the back seat and he was driving and we chatted and I was not open at that time I got through some hard years of different relationships and was very closed. Anything new that he was so kind and pursued conversation. I remember walking away thinking that is really kind even though I was so closed closed off, so this might be an unfair question but how long was it before in your mind, you should really know this is the one that's I love that question for I feel like it was a little different for me at that stage of things because I was so gun shy, so scared of being hurt, and so for me I never felt like I fell in love. I felt like I grew into love slowly and eventually just made a choice to risk and to commit though it wasn't an easy journey. It was actually went pretty fast. Once we started dating, so it became apparent pretty clearly pretty quickly, but it still is a scary journey for me.

So all along the way I was choosing to trust God to listen for his input into our relationship like what what your heart God and to have other people speak into it and tell me when I was being crazy and say this guy is the real deal. Stop looking for red flag stop you. So always good to invite our friends to share their thoughts about people that were involved with the calling you have a son, Jeremy tells about how he's changed your life, and there is no denial use 10 turn 11 soon and yes he I prayed for my future children. I thought I would have 3 to 4 start praying for them when I was a teenager. So actually become pregnant, you know, even though I was older that was a miracle in itself and then to experience labor and delivery. These are gifts that I know a lot of women don't you know even get to experience and I felt that the gravity of that miracle of that and then to hold my son in my arms and become a mom was just it was miraculous. It changes everything you know in my Outlook, my priorities each day in and why do some of the selfless you know mom things that I do and how I look at God at I started seeing God in this new light because I had this son. My only son because I can have any more children, and I started identifying with God in any way that he had his only son who suffered into. He surrendered for the good of others, and in just this idea of what he went through started impacting my heart as I sought my heart overflow with love for this child love that I've never experienced before. So in so many ways my my heart and my head were shapes differently after giving birth to that sweet little guy something different about having a child one changes responsible for the style. Yes, it's not that about me and my comfort in my own existence, anymore. Some of the changes with marriage immediately, but there is a different different kind of change right with kids go back to the marriageable Jews your husband struggles in the early stages of emerge. Oh yeah, we are both very strong-willed, very opinionated, passionate people.

So yeah, it was not easy and it you know in one sense, it wasn't surprising because of who we were, but it in another sense it was really natural and easy which I was surprised that so it was both its felt so natural to be married even though I been single so long. Just like the most natural thing in the world and in another sense it was like you know the ugly parts of my heart coming out so yeah definitely we had some messy we still do we still have our special messes but I'm grateful for my husband's grace is the question just okay other lot. Lots of experiences that all struggles because were human, really. We feel different. Let's talk about the really hard part of your story.

That is the diagnosis. When did you find out tell us about the whole I found out the cancer was back a year ago little over year ago and then about 56 weeks later, we heard that was terminal. So there was a little window of time in there, but we didn't know, but I had a sense that it was because we knew right away it was in my lymph nodes and the Lord has been so gracious through this whole journey over the last five years of cancer to give me kind of some insights into what's coming.

He's been really really good that way.

And so I did.

I had this kind of this intuition that it was not going to be good news is you to respond.

That word terminal. Yeah there's nothing quite like that. Not that that's a harder suffering another sufferings, but there's nothing quite like hearing your end is near, and even though I had that intuition that it was it was going to be the word that I hear. And because COBIT and some other complications. I was alone that day at my doctor appointment so I sat there just hearing you know this crazy news wash over me and I was pretty strong and tough in the appointment it you know nothing. I probably looked really put together and poise and even as I walked out back to my car I felt almost like God holding me together in that moment and then I had to tell my son and it I think that's when probably the reality came crashing in and it it was a pain. I've never felt before, like no other pain I felt before because I think I would just be ready to go in a heartbeat but because this was you know the beginning of saying goodbye to my husband and son and huge family and and best friends and all that the grief was moments it felt unbearable and I would go into my closet and so that I would overwhelm my son. He was also grieving and I would scroll up in the fetal position and whale to God and my head hurt and I would lay awake at night but still do sometimes, but in the early days and weeks. It was, it felt like someone had thrown me into the ocean without a life jacket or calms you is just as crazy, otherworldly experience early on because you should through some treatments and over five years.

You should to the should essentially that if it hadn't been for your husband and son, you probably would not have gone through all those treatments that you went through. Is that really your your photos you look back on. Yeah, it really is. I just remember, in singleness, being so ready to go at any time. Is that odd. I just I can't wait to be with Jesus.

I can't wait for the other side of things and for the joy that's waiting for us, but it got changed.

You know with these deep attachments people that I love with all my heart, to the point that sometimes I'm tempted to make that my idols get out because I love them so much and sit think about the fact that I would go but then an end my suffering would be over. But then this would create grief like no other. I mean, watching my husband and son. Grief is it's like a torture to my heart because I'm wired as a compassionate person anyway and just to think that when my sons faces his hardest days of darkness and grief. I will not be there to help. That's crazy stuff and so that's that's why I was like oh I'm in a do everything I can for more time.

And if God allows it right. He holds my days, but if he gives me more time to sit coach my son through some of this and I just feel like everything is a miracle because it it's a chance to point him again to Christ and to teach them how to grieve with God and God's presence and to connect him with people who are going to hold up his arms when I'm gone do things that some people don't get to do in a sudden-death situation so I feel very spoiled by that to be able to have treatment that will give me some more time so exit yeah it's definitely been a driving force, spoken recently with a husband whose wife your battle with cancer through all the chemo and all the results and then he was diagnosed years. There were years later and he just said, going through all of the bill of the founders will live as long as I can but I want to live without going through all of that so good about this watch someone go through the spoon. The decision is not my wife went through that 10 years ago she survived and is doing well whole year was also here and would you know goes on with letters to his sister's devastating really hear what you're saying that goes with us you willing to try a few more days or months or years and all the while praying that God will alleviate the problem.

So like our listeners who have gone through that are hopefully members go through that identifying with what you're saying you've written a lot about engaging with God through the Scriptures and experiencing Hillman's word as you walk through this that's really been a lifeline for you right it really has it has been everything and I always think of Deuteronomy 32, 447 where it says that these words from God are not meaningless words to you, but they are your life and that's what I've experienced in their my life itself, especially because of these hardships, which makes the word more precious and more alive and maybe some people don't need to go through hard things for that to be true, but I'm a stubborn, hardheaded. What I learned slowly and so I think that suffering has pressed me into that living active experience of God and his word instead of reading Scripture for just had knowledge or checking off the list.

Like I got number today it's B becomes this lifeline up if I don't stay in the word no one wants to be around me and I'm not good to make it through these crazy things and it such a testimony to the fact that the word is powerful, that God speaks and that he has designed it so that we meet him and experience him and hear from him and get to talk to him through through that.

So I'm just so grateful for the word and that it is my life and not just idle words, what, what's been your pattern in terms of spending time with God and the word morning playing with you, afternoon or evening or social bit about what it looks like I have been all over the map. Over the years. Actually I I'm more of a creative person and I like a lot of variety, but I also like routine. Such a strange mix but my favorite thing is to get up before the sun gets up if it's cold, light a fire, pour a cup of coffee or tea and spin that uninterrupted quiet time back with this journey.

My body is very slow and it struggles in the morning. My mom not able to get up early like I did for different seasons and so it kind of is when I can get to it in in any given day. Right now, what I've kind of done in place of the early morning is all just turn on that audio Bible violently in bed before I can even move my body. I'm laying there listening. Typically when I'm doing audio Bible. It's through the Psalms and just praying the Psalms back to God. So as David or Asaph or any of the psalmist say something to God.

I'm seeing it with them and it's just given expression to so much of my heart and then later in the day.

I'll get the last seven months I spent in the book of Luke just verse by verse typing out questions to God or responses to God on in a word doc on my laptop and I'm about to finish up that steady and it has been so rich and all you seen a blue letter for word study or Bible Gateway for different versions and all look deep into some of these things that grab grab my interest or captivate me and just verse by verse like what's this about what's the context for this what was going on in that time to make this meaningful even to me today and so that's make time to really dig deep and some days it's only a couple of verses and some days it's more and and sometimes in the email car on the way to an appointment. I'm just praying Scripture to God and eliciting for his voice and he stick Scripture back that I've had in my heart. So it comes a little hot in a lot of forms.

I've danced before he died, he notices dancing and singing before God in response to his word, just it that moves Mido and Simon aggressive type so it's come in all kinds of shapes and forms over the years sober.

Listeners are good and what you're saying because you know the spiritual people of the quotes for the morning for two hours going through something like the of of listening to someone reading the Scriptures of the audio while you're in for you. That's the thought of whatever exposure you reduce, it's exposing ourselves in whatever way we can do what God has decided to use yesterday's calling shell and were so excited to feature her new book coming out in early October to find out more about it by going to Moody It's titled in the hands of a fiercely tender God. 31 days of hope, honesty and encouragement for the sufferer.

Again, you can go to Moody book', click the Moody radio icon right there what you hear a little bit of of this, this is Colleen and her son singing a song together, basically singing the Scripture back to God. So they show Colleen that is such a precious little glimpse just the snapshot of you and your son. Tell us what what's going on there but it's a little habit reforms from when he was very young to try to hide the word in our hearts. And I need as much as he does early on when he was still a baby. God just pressed upon my spirit that his journey would be hard and he would have suffering and I had no idea he had health issues right away so I knew that that might be what what I was sensing that his health was pretty poor in the beginning and so I wanted him to have the word in his heart for whatever was to come. So we did short little chanting Scripture doing the hand motions when he was a toddler and then as he got older we did larger and larger chunks to song and it has been such a sweet thing to share because you know music bonds us anyway as people and it expresses our heart and then if that music is Scripture it's just it's just so powerful and beautiful and so that's been just such a sweet thing for me to share with him over the years and to leave behind for him because we often won't forget songs long-term. Those will come back to our hearts and minds. That's been a precious privilege in the memories you will have two new hope so. There were other seasons of suffering. You went through totals about those nobly prepared for this season.

Yeah, definitely singleness like we've already talked about was some have thought it dramatic to say suffering but it felt like it at the time and unique kind of suffering, emotional and and then as I was.

As I turned 30 and in the first few years of my 30s little irritating physical symptoms I'd had for years were kind of exploding into this chronic illness and pain and as I met my husband and we began dating. We were also going to specialists and doctors to try to figure out what was going on and then my son was born with a lot of complications and so we spent while we have spent the last 1314 years in doctors offices and trying to track things down and shift our diets and figure out what's going on with my body even before cancer and that that changed so much for me because I was such a go-getter ambitious do all the things person so that was a huge shift in my life and then my cancer diagnosis.

After all of that so I think what those seasons did for me was what James talks about where you know that perseverance that considering it pure joy so that as you persevering your becoming mature and complete, so that you don't lack anything I look back over my shoulder and see that to be so true.

Not that I've not been a mature and complete, but that process that it was beginning in me in a new way was developing this muscle memory for how to go to God with disappointment for how to grieve in Jesus's presence and find him and experience his love and his comfort and his goodness in the darkest days it was you know that the year after year after year of difficulties that was training me to think in eternal terms to look at eternal realities and not to try to put my roots down here and love this world like I'm so prone to do all of those skills were already in motion when I was diagnosed with cancer and I'm so grateful because it had a little reference point for suffering and some muscle memory. Even though this was such a different kind of suffering. I have so far to go pick some days I think.

Oh my goodness, I am what I still feel like I'm on square one Mido I'm such a baby. In some ways, and haven't developed in some areas but in other areas to see how God has he suffering in such powerful ways to work on my heart and my brain and my habits and it's such a gift from him.

I would not go back in and change any of those seasons because of the fruit and the beauty that come out of them word from Peter own children will joy some Christians are so worried about joyful is not a pleasant experience, but sorry, but our perspective is you kill it all joy you see is a part of what God is doing in your life.

Yes, yes, it really is it's and it's strange how the kingdom of God is upside down to us right inside out and backwards, but he when he says something like that. It really there so it's all true. It's just we have to plow through so much hardship to see it come true. I think we want the easy button right like I want to experience joy the way, but there's so much joy. On the other side of the cross like Jesus modeled for us so much joy. On the other side of the cross that we can't anticipate we can't fathom and tell we get on the cross until we take up our cross daily, and then we start seeing the reality of what what Christ has promised to us: you've written suffering is will the most powerful ways to know God's goodness and love broken world is going to counterintuitive like what suffering is a powerful way to know God's goodness. Why do you think that's true. I think because, at least for my own experience.

I am so prone to shallow dreams and substitute loves. I'm just my heart is full of folly and especially looking back, and 46 years old now and looking back over several decades and seeing that the dreams that I first had I think in a rough he replanted there by God right in my heart that they were just so full of me and so full of this world and comfort and so I would have cheated myself I would have missed out on so much had I just lived out, though shallow dreams, and I think what suffering does is it presses us to the one thing we really, really wants we really are made for is God himself and we are so quick to cheat ourselves of the experience of God, the fullness of his presence and his joy and his love and his peace and his purposes for us that are far, far greater than our little dreams, and I think suffering when something takes us by surprise, and we go we this is what I planned and it pushes us out of that little comfort zone that we've created for herself and pushes us into the arms of love and into the arms of the one who has far greater dreams for us than we have for ourselves not in a worldly way to measure dreams or success, but in an infinitely eternal one and I think that is why suffering captivates people because it's it it arrests our attention. It's it's painful and it's in all the stories that we love the most right it's suffering that compels us to keep reading that story or watching that movie because it is compelling and in itself suffering is not worthwhile. It it doesn't have any value but when God takes it and uses it in her life.

It is infinitely valuable and it shows the world the goodness of God, because now were out of the way right. It's it's what Paul said that as death is at work in us the life of Jesus is being portrayed, and so as we're dying to our self in our dreams and our selfishness. People can more clearly see God in and through us because now were getting out of the way and and he's using us.

It's our email. He uses our story, but now it's not all about us. It's all about him and that is what the world longs for the they long to see someone find love in the worst darkest days and not just live a comfortable life and have you know lots of money and perfect successful children and in model marriage that's ultimately that's not what what the world wants to see in Christians and their disillusioned by Christians who want to have everything in the world.

Plus God.

But when they see someone suffer in the presence of Jesus. It is compelling. That's those are the people who have changed me and have influenced me so deeply over the years. What you're saying is you're living outside of CS Lewis, God whispers to us in our pleasure speaks in our consciences bookshelves in our pains saying that you can be. If you go through suffering. You can be that megaphone that God uses to speak to others in the middle of what you're struggling with. I left that so perfectly said yes that's it that's it and I think we have very small voices when we are so comfortable in this world and it doesn't have to be cancer that points you know it helps people see Jesus NSA can just be a suffering kind of a mundane day suffering that we take to God and we we experience his presence and that shows the world a different way and a different different kind of God than I think we've purchased they got to be in our comfort going think most of us would say with the subject of this comes we would so will we all know were going theoretically and realistically, we know that, but when we have had a diagnosis is terminal and reflation.

The reality that death is coming much earlier than I anticipated. It does give us a different framework from which to face the rest of her throat.

It really does she wish we could experience it before terminal diagnosis that I was just thinking yesterday. What a precious gift God has given me every day, every single day. I think all my goodness I have another day such a gift and I don't know how much longer I have to look what I get to do today and that is a phenomenal and sometimes weighty and painful and bitter reality, but it is a huge full gift and I think a lot of people in history and different cultures have experience more that than we have in a day were we have so much good medical care and health and I think were were probably an exception to the historical rule here in America so you alluded one juncture to help other people show love to do God's will to you. The solution surely we have been so well loved. I have been my husband and son. We have been surrounded with encouraging messages and cards in the mail and groceries at our doorstep, and people who will whisk away my son to give him fun somewhere and build joy into him in the season and people who will text my husband to check in on him. I could go on and on with that you have been given money for medical expenses people have shifted their gatherings to our home so I could be part of it for my recliner.

Just incredible, thoughtful, beautiful ways that people of loved us so well and I felt very spoiled and and humbled by this kind of gifts. What would you encourage your listeners to do their friends or family members are going through the kind of thing that you're going through what you would do so would be the ideal code things like personally I love that kind of question. I think it's hard to answer. In one sense, because everyone so different but think from my own experience and then talking with quite a few others have gone through this journey. The ability for someone to be so gentle and take pressure off. And, for example, to message that suffering one and just love on them without any expectation of a response and just say I just love you and I you know I can't imagine what this is like for you but I am here praying and with you, and then another way that has been really meaningful has been people loving on my husband and son. I think what often happens is that it the cancer patient gets all the attention and it makes sense in it right and I'm on one hand it makes sense that that would be the main focus, but I tell you what I when someone left on my husband and my son, my heart source suggests and I know it's it's harder typically for men to reach out to other men we seen a lot in the past years women just intuitively know how to enter in and you don't empathize and nurture it all that but for four other men to reach out to husband and care for him is is really really meaningful and to see how he's doing and to enter into his experience is really really significant. And to think of the children.

If there are children involved in so that's been such a neat thing for people when I when people asked if I've said those two things and one thing I I say quickly to is to hold off on shooting averse to someone who's just heard a hard diagnosis to just kind of learn from Job's friends and to be willing to sit in the grief and be silent and just be present and understand that it is so overwhelming and so all-consuming, especially at the beginning and then there will be time to to share scriptural encouragement that I when I have friends, you know, get a diagnosis.

Now I'm very slow to share scripture even though that sounds so weird because I love Scripture with all my heart, but it can come across trite and in her phone so that we have been yet so we people of modeled well how to do this and I have use their model to do it for others and it's been a blessing goes about this quarter. Some of the things that maybe the members and friends should not so would not be helpful to mention one early in the process of serving.

I think just that you know not putting pressure. For one thing I've learned with others to not say let me know what you need because honestly so overwhelmed and you appreciate the offer but there's just no way to balance everything and then to try to figure out how to communicate all the needs.

So what yeah we found is when people just drop things off or send things you know in the mail and just kind of take initiative.

It it takes that burden off the patient's cancer patient to try to figure out what they need. My husband and I have looked at each other multiple times and said we don't even know what we need to figure it out right now so just that willingness to do just sent something or say something and risk maybe it's not perfect but it's so precious to the patient to see people love them in different ways like that. "Let me know that we can help you is a cut and was suing and willing to help you know when yes. The unexpected helps remove, but it's like they want to take the initiative to do something that you think would be meaningful to them than likely it will be something that wouldn't put more on the schedule that is so filled up with appointments and treatments.

All that but just anything I've told people I know someone loves me. I just I'm not easily offended. I I just take it as love. So I see these things and honestly I have people of God gone wrong. This is from personal experience of you horrible experiences, but just its been mean nothing to get up over the years and learning from my own poor ways of entering and with other sufferings to just be gentle and take the pressure off take that obligations off take the communication off of that that person in the thick of it. But again, everyone's different rate. So this is will you talk and in the midst of all this to write this book close.

What are your hopes for this book in the fiercely tender God what you want readers to take away as they read your life and your experience now.

I hope that my experience at them into a deeper experience of Christ's comfort and love and joy. I wrote the book gently. I tried to be really gentle and not write a big treatise on suffering the extent of the expert on this but just to share gently share my experience and how we can enter into a deeper, increasingly beautiful experience of Christ.

It gets better and better and better. The deeper we go and so that's what I would hope would be to take away from that book that someone would experience more of Christ in very real, tangible ways through the darkest days of their lives locally. Let me thank you for forcible writing this book because I know I'm a writer know it takes effort to write a book will thank you for doing that and thank you for being with us today, ensuring enough about this book that I hope our listeners will get a copy even if they're not going through something like this didn't read it and think about a friend like so God continued to guardrail the journey know he will thank you so much for this time it is been such a joy to chat with you and I appreciate your ministry.

So much so find out more about her resource books.for more in the hands of the fiercely one days of honesty and courage, self radio icon next to her struggle with sexual don't miss our conversation and remember, you can find simple ways to strengthen relations. Five love a big thank you to our Wiccans and Building Relationships. Dr. Gary Dr. Moody radio in association with Moody publishers a ministry. Thanks for listening

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