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Rebuilding Trust in a Marriage - Mark and Jill Savage

Building Relationships / Dr. Gary Chapman
The Truth Network Radio
February 13, 2021 1:00 am

Rebuilding Trust in a Marriage - Mark and Jill Savage

Building Relationships / Dr. Gary Chapman

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February 13, 2021 1:00 am

Is the trust in your marriage being built or being broken? On this edition of Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman, Jill and Mark Savage detail the devastation of adultery. It was a painful, difficult time in their marriage. But there was repentance and forgiveness. Then came the hard work of rebuilding trust. What is that process like? Find out on the next Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman.

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Check out the faith and family mortgage team at unitedfaithmortgage.com. In your marriage, is trust being built or is it being broken? Listen to Mark and Jill's story today on Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman. Unknowingly, I sent him a message that I didn't need him, and that broke his trust.

I could do nothing to repair, to rebuild, to fix any part of this. I had to trust him. Welcome to Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman, author of the New York Times bestseller, "The 5 Love Languages" . Today, Jill and Mark Savage give help and hope for marriages where trust has been broken.

And you might be wondering how this program fits on the day before Valentine's Day. Well, let's be honest. There are a lot of marriages struggling right now because of broken trust. So this might be the perfect conversation for your marriage or somebody that you know. Gary, you've seen this issue of broken trust in your counseling through years, haven't you? Many times, Chris, they will sit in my office and one of them, the one who was hurt deeply, will say, you know, I'm choosing to forgive them or I'm trying to forgive them.

But to be honest, I don't trust them. Yeah, and it's a journey. So I think our conversation today with Jill and Mark are going to be some hopeful words for people who are going through that now or have gone through that. And if you're listening and haven't gone through it, I hope you'll think about your friends who may be going through this.

And I think you're going to find this to be very helpful. Well, let me introduce our guests. Jill Savage has joined us many times here on the program. She's founder of Hearts at Home.

She's written a number of books, including No More Perfect Moms, Living with Less So Your Family Has More, My Hearts at Home, Real Moms, Real Jesus. And the book that she and Mark, her husband wrote, No More Perfect Marriages, Experience the Freedom of Being Real Together. Mark served in church ministry and pastoral roles for more than 20 years before transitioning to partner together with Jill to serve as a marriage coach and speaker.

The parents of five, grandparents of eight, the Savages live in Normal, Illinois. Well, Jill and Mark, welcome to Building Relationships. Well, thank you.

Yes, we're excited to be here today. It's been 10 years, Jill, since you weathered Mark's affair. You've not only healed, but you're helping others heal, which I think is absolutely admirable. So can you share a little bit of the journey that you all have been through?

Sure, sure. Well, yes, it was about it was actually 11 years ago that Mark left pastoring. And when he did, I think we both underestimated how much that would kind of send him into an identity crisis. And he was already kind of struggling with that. But it it just became a really rough year for him after leaving ministry.

And I could feel it. I could feel that he was struggling. He he was everything in life bothered him, including our marriage.

But I sure I certainly didn't understand the extent that he was. And, you know, now that we look back, I mean, it really he went into a full on midlife crisis. And that included an affair that lasted for almost a year. And that was a really dark year of our life, as you can imagine. And it was also during that time that Mark chose to leave. And so we endured a four month separation as well. So there was a lot of broken trust and a lot of hurt and a lot of pain. But we're very grateful that on Easter Sunday of actually 2012, Mark had what we call his own personal resurrection. Yes, I did.

Yeah, thank you. What is your perspective, Mark, on that journey in those in those days, the hurt and the pain? I found myself fully frustrated with all of life. I found myself incredibly angry at the church. And ultimately, I think the core of it was I was angry at God. He wasn't doing what I thought he should be doing. And what I came to as I surrendered myself to him is that I'm not I'm not God. I'm incapable of knowing what he's up to and what he's doing.

All I can do is trust him. And so out of my own brokenness and my own sin, God in his redemption has had me on a journey of really growing to understand who God really is as father, as dad. And it was interesting, too, that, as I mentioned, God as father. The two men in my life that were my dad, my my birth father and then my stepfather were both men who were very broken themselves.

And they did not give a good image of a dad. And so I had all these twisted expectations and twisted assumptions of who God really was at that point. Jill, when this was going on, you mentioned it was for a year. At what juncture in that year did you become aware of the affair?

I about a month in, but it was only emotional at that time there. The guardrails had been taken down to protect our relationship. And he was having a private conversation with someone he had known many, many years ago through Facebook. And that is a place that we do have to be.

We do have to guard our marriage. You know, we always say now if an old high school girlfriend or boyfriend contacts you through Facebook, your next step is to run. Yeah.

Run! You just don't even open those doors. But yeah. So I was so at that point, I learned that it was, you know, he was having these conversations. But at that point, it seemed innocent enough. We talked about the fact that he needed to put guardrails up, and he did for a little while, but then it went underground again. And then I discovered three months in that it had turned physical. And what juncture did you actually separate then? So I was on and off again with that relationship seven times. So he would recommit to our marriage, and then he would go back, and he would recommit, and he would go back.

And that happened seven times. And then probably nine months in, I began working to find a place of my own. And then ultimately left Jill and the kids probably at the ten month mark. I was just convinced that my life was unfixable, and that Jill and I were unfixable. And I was writing off into the new relationship. But as I said before, the problem was I took somebody with me, and that person was a mess.

And that person was me. I was just a mess on the inside. At what age were your children during that time, Jill, and how did this affect them? You know, our three older kids were young adults in their twenties. And our two younger were teenagers at home. And they were absolutely broken hearted. Their world was rocked. They were, you know, even the adult kids who were somewhat removed from the day to day, their world was turned upside down. And then our two boys that were still at home, in fact I remember telling them, guys, this is a cry zone. It's, you know, whatever you need to sort through the pain that you're experiencing, this is a safe place for that.

Which is hard for teenage boys. But I'll tell you what, I saw a lot of tears during that time. And I think that was a place that you found that you thought it would be different for them. I had some very twisted understanding or perspective within myself that I really thought the kids would understand. I was saying the very things that I had counseled people years prior to not believe, but I was believing that the kids would be okay. They're resilient and they were not okay. And it took quite a bit of God's work and my work to rebuild that trust with them as well.

Let's talk about what you're doing now, having come through this and you're trying to help other people. When infidelity happens, you say that trust has to be rebuilt by both parties. When only one party really has been unfaithful, why do both parties need to rebuild trust?

Yeah, that is a place that there's often a misconception. You know, certainly the broken trust of the infidelity was huge and there was a lot to rebuild there. But our marriage had broken places in it and there had been ways over the years that I had also broken Mark's trust.

I had done that with my critical words. I had done that unknowingly by being an avoider with my emotions and kind of unknowingly because I would just always be strong. I would never let Mark in on when life was hard for me or when I was sad or frustrated or angry or hurting from some situation that I would never let him know about those things. And so unknowingly, I sent him a message that I didn't need him and that broke his trust that I didn't need him. And so as we began to rebuild our relationship after this very, very dark season, certainly he had to rebuild trust in the area of commitment to our marriage and being faithful. I had to rebuild trust in the areas where I had wounded his heart as it related to needing him, as it related to being critical of him. I had to turn those around and rebuild trust in those areas. Mark, what led you to wake up, perhaps is a good word, and begin moving toward reconciliation as opposed to following the route you were following?

Well, I think there were a number of things. One, this relationship that I was pursuing was having struggles very similar to what Jill and I had. And I began to really question in my heart or in my mind, was I doing the right thing that if Jill and I were struggling and this new relationship is struggling, then gosh, I need to get Jill and I figured out. And secondly, that I had a realization that I had really loved Jill based upon what I thought love should be, what I thought love meant.

And I honestly, I had no clue. I did not know what love, I didn't know how to love Jill. I didn't know how to love a strong woman.

I just didn't know how to do it. And so during all of this time of challenge and separation, I had continued to read my Bible and journal. And I just felt like God was saying, Mark, you need to learn how to love for me.

When it came to Easter, I just realized that I needed to really yield 100%. I would say for the first time in my life, I repented of who was going to be the leader of my life. And I, at that point, was like, I'm not going to argue or debate with God anymore.

I'm just going to take my dad by the hand and say, wherever you lead me, I'll walk. And so I began a walk of surrender at that point. Jill, when he reached out, I'm assuming, Mark, you shared that with her where you were when that happened, Jill. What was your initial response?

You know, it was interesting. We were actually together when it happened. It was almost a Damascus road experience for him because that morning he had actually, we had a brand new grandchild and we had traveled several hours away to see our new grandbaby with our sons that were still living at home. And we had done that together and we'd gotten back quite late. And I had said to him, you know, I think it was like 2 a.m.

I said, you know, do you want to just stay here tonight rather than driving further on home? And he was like, yeah, I think I better. So he woke up that morning. We were actually together and he informed me that he would be filing for divorce that week.

It was, you know, my head was spinning and the only thing I thought of that morning was that it was Easter. And I said, you know, Mark, Jesus didn't want to go to the cross, but he did. He said, Lord, not my will, but yours. And I don't know what it was in that, but it struck him hard.

Yeah. And he thought about it for a few moments. And then he said, I'm actually going to pray that prayer. And he did. And he looked up at me and said, can we go to church? And I said, yes, we can. And we did. And we actually spent the day together. And he that night, he even said to me, I don't even remember what I had against you.

Like, I can remember the things, but they don't hold, they're not in my heart anymore. So it literally was this surrender. So I watched it happen. It was scary and I was hopeful. And because I saw literally the change in him, I was more hopeful than I had been in some of the other times where he had made a recommitment. And that I felt like he was doing the right thing, but his heart wasn't really in it. And this time I could tell there was a difference. So I was scared, Gary. I was really scared, but hopeful that maybe something had happened inside his heart. And certainly it had with surrender. Bart, did you sense in her an openness to seeking reconciliation?

I did. I also was very aware that I had deeply hurt her and our kids and so many others, that I saw that trust was very distant. And that was really where at the moment that I fully surrendered, I heard the Lord speak to me, Mark, if you'll trust me for the list. I was literally carrying a list of things against Jill and us in marriage. And so God said, Mark, if you'll trust me for the list, I'll take care of the rest. And that was really my hope that I could do nothing to repair, to rebuild, to fix any part of this.

I had to trust him. Jill, when someone turns, as Mark did, to God first and then turns back to their partner, in the book you talk about forgiveness because there has to be a response when a person does that. And you say that forgiveness is layered.

What does that mean? Yeah, well, this was a learning curve for me because I would have said before all of this happened, that my perspective was that forgiveness was once and done. In other words, Mark had an affair. I needed to forgive him for the affair. And so that would have been what I would have done with forgiveness. However, what I found as we began the journey of rebuilding our very broken relationship is that, no, it wasn't, forgiveness wasn't once and done. I often had to forgive 20 to 30 to 40 times a day as I thought about different aspects.

So I'll give you an example. One day I was driving by a hotel where I knew that they had met. And that day my heart was just broken at the deception. And so in that moment my heart is broken at the deception and I need to forgive the deception. The very next day I drive by the same hotel but my heart is broken for a different reason.

My heart is broken over the financial mess that this left us in. And so that day I have to forgive for the financial mess. So that's when we say that forgiveness is layered. That's what we're talking about is that we have to forgive all the different aspects and the elements and all of the things that come up in our heart and oftentimes I think that when people struggle with forgiveness they don't realize that they're probably trying to forgive the single act without realizing that there are lots of little acts that made up that single act of betrayal. And it's all those little acts that we have to actively forgive. Mark, as you thought about your attitudes toward her and the things she had done to you or said to you in the past, was there an element of forgiveness on your part? Oh, absolutely, Gary. I had to let that go.

And I found myself in a very, very similar way that there would be different aspects to how I'd been hurt by Jill and I had to un-layer that hurt and forgive at those different levels. Forgiveness is not a feeling, right? Right. Nope, it is a decision. It is. It is. Yeah, if we wait until we feel like forgiving... We won't get that done.

No. Yeah, yeah. But Jill, you said that as you drove past that place, that hotel, things kept coming up. And so someone will say, if I forgive, it should just be one time and I don't bring it up, then I haven't really forgiven. If it's coming up, what do you say to that?

Well, what I would say to that is that probably it's a different aspect that you haven't considered. And I had to become more self-aware to what was hurting my heart in that moment. But the other thing I would say is, even when we've forgiven, oftentimes it'll creep back up. It'll creep back up and we will have to actively go through that process again. You know, maybe even just remind ourselves, Lord, I know that I have forgiven Mark for the financial mess.

I know I did that last Tuesday and it just crept back up again. And so I'm making an active decision once again to lay that back down, to put that back in your hands. So sometimes we have the tendency to pick things up and when we do, we have to actively put them back down through that act of forgiveness. So it's an act of trust in Him to make that forgiveness real in your life. Yes, it is an act of trust of God that He's still at work and that He is the Redeemer, or I like to even say the Redreamer.

That He is at work and that yes, this is a big mess, but God's bigger than the mess. The memories keep popping back, even when you've forgiven once or twice or three times. The memories keep coming back and often when the memories come back, the hurt, the pain comes back, right? Yes, and you know, one of the things that was really important and we just, we started to dialogue about those more often.

And number one, I am an internal processor, OK? My tendency is to just, is to think things through all the time and I don't even think to express them verbally, which is honestly a place that I've had to grow in our marriage. But, you know, I wasn't keeping those to myself anymore. I would say, hey, I drove by that hotel today and it really broke my heart about the financial mess that all of this has created. And those conversations became trust rebuilding conversations, which I was so grateful for because the way Mark would respond to those. And then when he would have the same conversations with me, the way I would respond to them made all the difference in the world.

He would say, you know what, Jill, I know that it made a financial mess. And for that, I am so very sorry. And I do once again ask for your forgiveness.

And that would be the essence of the conversation. You know, so in the same way that I was forgiving 20 and 30 times a day, sometimes he was apologizing that many times a day. And we're not talking about an apologizing like I said I was sorry. It was a humble, I know that that hurt you terribly. And I am so very sorry.

And it would just it would stop at that. And those were healing conversations. That resource is from Jill and Mark Savage. They put together a roadmap to rebuilding trust.

You can download it at their website. We have a link at FiveLoveLanguages.com. As you've been hearing, Jill and Mark have gone through some deep waters in their marriage. And if there's broken trust in your relationship, go to FiveLoveLanguages.com to find this free roadmap to rebuilding trust.

Or you can go to RebuildingTrust.us slash Roadmap. Well, Mark and Jill, before the break, we were talking about forgiveness. We were talking about the memories that come back even after we choose to forgive. And I really like what both of you were saying that when you did bring up those memories to each other and reiterate the hurt that is stimulated in you, each of you were understanding and affirmed rather than preaching to the other person.

And I often find this with Christians especially. They'll say, well, you've just got to get over this now. You just got to get over it. You said you forgave me. Get over it. And that just causes further pain and further fracture, right? Right.

It absolutely does. And you're right. And really, that's a defensive response. So I would say we laid down defensiveness.

We did. And we were surrendered and humble. And for me, that meant I will answer every question. And my commitment was that I was trying to grow in love and compassion and understanding. And I wanted to convey that at every point.

Yeah. Well, let's move to the whole area of rebuilding trust, which is really the heart of what you're trying to say in this book. Forgiveness is certainly, it has to happen before we can even rebuild trust. But forgiveness is not the whole story in rebuilding trust. Tell us a little bit about the journey in terms of rebuilding trust. Well, you know, I think that it's really important that we separate forgiveness and rebuilding trust. It is an important part of it. But I think sometimes part of the reason people are afraid to forgive is because they think that it means then they're going to have to trust.

And they're two very different things. So forgiveness is the first step, one of the very first steps of rebuilding trust. But it's just the beginning. All it does is say, my heart is open to you beginning to rebuild trust with this issue. So I think that that's really important for people to understand. And that's a place that we find as we work with different couples is that there's a fear. If I forgive, I've got to I've got to jump back in and trust you.

And it's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You're going to forgive. And there's still going to be no trust. So rebuilding trust is in and the beginning of it is forgiveness. But boy, there's a lot of work to do after the forgiveness step. Forgiveness opens the door to the possibility that trust can be reborn. Yes, you're right, Gary.

So what is the formula? What is the pathway toward rebuilding trust? One of the things that is really important is consistent changed behavior over time and consistent changed behavior over time equals trust. And so there's no shortcut for rebuilding trust. You just can't shortcut it. You can't.

There's no easy button. It takes time and it takes consistent changed behavior that happens over time where you're starting to realize that you're changing the way that you respond to life, that you respond to each other. You're changing. And and that in and of itself is starting to rebuild trust. So as you change your behavior, then it begins to rebuild trust. So from a practical perspective, for me, as I became more affirming of Mark and not critical of him, he began to trust my words. He began to trust that I believed the best in him. And and so I was being intentional about changing the way I interacted with him.

And over time that rebuild trust. So Jill, what I what I hear you saying is that not only were you expecting and hoping he would change and beginning to see those changes. So you were rebuilding trust in him. You were changing. So he would rebuild trust in you.

Yes, exactly. Because I needed to, you know, what I often I think is important for people to understand the one who was betrayed. There's nothing that we do to cause someone else to have an affair. But I did contribute to the dysfunction in our marriage and I needed to own what I contributed to the dysfunction of our relationship. And those are the places where I needed to rebuild trust. You also say in the book that the trust breaker is the trust maker. What do you mean by that? Well, the trust breaker.

So in this case, it would be me. I had to drive the rebuilding of trust. I my tendency in the past was to be passive, to be silent, to follow Jill's lead. And now I needed to find my voice, engage conversations with Jill in a loving, compassionate way, and then drive that that rebuilding of trust. I couldn't put it.

I did not have any get out of jail free card. I had to step up and lead this. Well, and what often happens, too, is the one who whose heart was broken becomes the police. And when they become the police, then you end up pushing from an unhealthy place. And so when the trust breaker becomes the trust maker, then there is no need for police. Right. There's no need for that because. So let's give you some examples of this.

Here's a perfect example. The person that Mark was unfaithful with lived in another community. And that community happens to be also where all of our extended family live.

So about two and a half hours from our home. And so when Mark wants to go see his mother and I can't go with him, he will often say. And this he started doing this right after he came back home. He would say, you know, I wish you could go with me.

I know you can't because of, you know, whatever reason. But I just want you to know I've asked my friend Carl to make the trip with me. And I am just like, thank you.

Thank you. I didn't ask him to take somebody with him. I didn't ask him to not go by himself. He, as the trust breaker, he was now making trust and becoming a trust maker by thinking ahead about doing something that would relieve my fear, that would put natural accountability in place for himself.

And that's what we're talking about is he really owned it. And he went ahead and he became the trust maker because he was being active and there was no need for me to police. I and a part of that is a principle we learned of pushing accountability or pushing information. So I would push that information to Jill. So one, it took the pressure off of her. It took away that sense that she's parenting me.

We both were committed to behaving differently, acting differently. And so I would push information to Jill for accountability. Another way that I pushed information was I unlocked my phone. I gave her passwords.

I deleted any hidden emails. And I just opened myself up to Jill and let her have that freedom to read whatever she wanted. And in humility, I was grateful for that. It just took it kept living in the open is such a freer life.

Yeah. And you know what, Gary, I honestly rarely looked at his phone. I, I rarely did. I mean, there were a few times where I just felt like I needed the reassurance. And I, I was grateful that he had just opened that up. I didn't have to ask. But because there were no more secrets, because he was being a trust maker now, I really didn't feel the same way.

I didn't have the need to even police when he was opening me up to do it. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And so, you know, that in and of itself made such a huge difference in rebuilding trust in our relationship. We're talking about trust and rebuilding trust after there's been infidelity. And you use the term trust bucket.

What is that and how does that work? Well, you know, this was a picture I feel like God gave me. And that is that, you know, when when we start in a relationship, it's trust is like a bucket. And the trust is the water in a bucket. So it's full.

We have all the reason in the world to trust our spouse. And when there's little things that get that start to happen in marriage, like critical words or having a critical spirit, OK, like I had towards Mark, some of that bucket, some of that water gets just kind of tossed out of the bucket each time. OK, you know, a cup of water goes and then it happens again and another cup goes and it happens again in another cup. And before you know it, then the bucket has very little trust in it. Or in the case of infidelity, in that moment, when a betrayal like that has happened, all of the trust in the bucket is dumped.

OK, gone. So now we need to rebuild trust. We need to refill the bucket. And what we don't understand, what we want to happen is we want to say, I'm sorry, I know this hurt you.

Will you please forgive me? And they say, I forgive you. And the bucket is full again. That's what we want to happen.

But that's not what happens. So what we have to do is we literally, you know, back to our formula of consistent change behavior over time rebuilds trust. So every time I speak a word of life to Mark and not a critical word, I am adding eighth of a cup into the bucket. And then I do it again and I add another eighth of a cup. I do something else and it adds a drop and then another drop and then another eighth of a cup.

And then the same thing's happening with Mark as he's rebuilding my trust and his commitment to my to our marriage. When he opens up his phone, that puts some water in the bucket. When I'm true to my word, when I do what I say, I add to Jill's bucket. So the bucket is getting refilled, but it is getting refilled over time. So it's very easy for us to dump the water.

It takes work for us to refill the bucket. Work and time, right? Yes. Yes.

What part does risk play in rebuilding trust? It's everything. It's everything. Yes.

Yeah. For me, the risk and courage was I had to find my voice and speak what I was thinking and not worry about the conflict and learn how to have a healthy conflict and to value conflict. I was such a mess, Gary, that I couldn't even remember all of the things I did. My prayer was nothing new would would be exposed on my phone or in my email that I had forgotten. And so it took risk. The revealing of yourself is a huge risk, but it is vital for rebuilding trust. Well, and not only that, but, you know, there's no way to start putting water back in that bucket without being willing to take a risk. I mean, there's always a risk. You know, Mark, it's always risky to trust me again that I'm not going to be critical. It's risky to trust him that he's going to be faithful. But over time, we began to see that that risk decreased as we started to rebuild trust with each other. But initially, yeah, you've got to be willing to risk again.

Yeah. Let's talk a moment about the children. What does broken trust do to the children and how do you help them process their pain? Broken trust really destroys our kids. And even my adult children, our adult children were just completely devastated. And so in rebuilding trust, it honestly is the same principle as rebuilding trust in marriage is it's that change behavior, that work over time will rebuild trust. And so it took it took quite a few years, honestly, to rebuild the trust. And I with each of my kids, it was different. Yeah, I was going to say the timeline was different. There were several of them that were quicker to fully reengage.

Right. There were a few that it took. It took them several years to get to a place where they trusted that you would stay. And and that I was consistent and that I was a changed person myself. And so each one let me know in their own way that they were trusting me again.

And what a reward that was. But I would say a big part of that was your willingness to respond in the ways you were responding to me. You know, yes, I know that that hurt you deeply.

You would answer any questions without defensiveness. And so I think listening well is really an important part of helping our kids through this, letting them have a safe place to talk about what's on their heart, their specific hurt, because their hurt may be different than their siblings hurt. So recognizing that that's a very individual process. So you guys are offering a new resource that's a roadmap for rebuilding trust.

Tell us about that and how people can connect to it. Yeah, we are just have found that over the years as marriage coaches, one of the biggest places people get stuck is knowing what steps to take to begin to heal. And quite frankly, we didn't know what steps to take. I mean, we stumbled along the journey and kind of figured it out and thought, let's make it easier for people coming behind us. And so that's when we created the roadmap for rebuilding trust. And that has been something that we've used in our coaching. And now we're excited to be able to offer that to others through a free resource and also a course that we'll be offering online. So it just offers hope, but also direction for people to know, OK, what are the actual steps that I want to take?

And you know what? We actually built it on the road signs that we see when we're driving places because we thought, you know what? That way it's always in front of us and we're reminded of the different steps as we see road signs when we travel places. So where do couples go to get this free roadmap? Well, they actually go to rebuilding trust.us slash roadmap.

So rebuilding trust.us slash roadmap. And then we have all kinds of additional marriage resources over at markandjill.org. Well, as we come to the end of our program, I want to thank you for being with us today. I know that there are couples who are going to listen to this broadcast who are in the middle of what you walk through. And I believe that what you're saying is going to bring great hope to them.

And I think also the resources that you're offering are going to give hope to them. So let me thank you for being open and vulnerable and sharing out of your own pain and struggle and offering hope to other people. So thank you for being with us today. Thanks for having us.

Yes. Well, if your marriage is undergoing broken trust, we have a link at five love languages dot com to find that roadmap to rebuilding trust. We have a free resource from Mark and Jill, and it might be the first step in restoring your relationship again for that free roadmap.

You can link it at five love languages dot com. Or as Jill just said, go to rebuilding trust.us slash roadmap. Next week, we'll meet a small business owner who believes blue collar businesses can change lives, communities and the world. Don't miss Dave Haytag story in one week. And before we leave you today, a big thank you to our production team, Steve Wick and Janice Todd. And thank you for listening. Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman is a production of Moody Radio in association with Moody Publishers, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute.
Whisper: medium.en / 2023-08-21 06:04:26 / 2023-08-21 06:19:24 / 15

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