Starting Strong | Matt Bell

Across Africa, millions of Christians are suffering a Bible famine. They hunger for God's Word, but there simply aren't enough Bibles. Today, Timothy Project is close to launching Africa's first Bible web press. To help complete this project, visit TimothyProject.info. We will direct our use of money in ways that's honoring to God and secondly that enables us to love well so that we are free to really hear, discern, and respond to God's call in our lives.

That's a wonderful starting point for any marriage. Welcome to Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman, author of the New York Times bestseller, "The 5 Love Languages" . Marriage and finances can be a complicated mix. Many couples struggle with stress about money issues, which is a leading cause of divorce.

Today, financial writer and stewardship expert Matt Belt helps us discover the good that money can do in a marriage. Matt's book is titled Starting Strong, and it's our featured resource at buildingrelationships.us. I'm interested to hear from you, Gary, what you've seen regarding this topic in your own marriage and in the couples that you've counseled. Is this an important issue that we need to tackle?

Well, there's no question about it, Chris. Actually, Carolyn and I did not have a lot of struggles with our marriage, to be very honest with you. because uh neither one of us had any money. And two weeks after we got married, I enrolled in seminary. And so, you know, we were just enough to pay the bills.

She was working part-time, and I was working part-time. And so, money was not, I do remember this. She agreed from the very beginning that she would keep the books, you know, for us, you know, pay the bills and so forth. And about, I don't know, three months into it, she said, honey, you think you could do this? And I said, well, I could.

Why? She said, it hurts my stomach. Because she was having trouble making sure all the bills got paid every month.

So I took that over, you know. But I tell you, my counseling, man, this has been one of the major issues through the years with couples, is their differences in terms of how they handle money. And many times, you know, they don't talk about it. And so this is going to be a good discussion. And this is a great book.

It's going to help a lot of people.

So I'm excited about our conversation. One of the things I remember about you and Carolyn is that you go to the store or you go shopping and look at things, window shopping, and you'd say, look at all these things we really don't need. We can't afford. And we, you know, and wouldn't it be nice if we could, well, we don't really need that. You were, you're of one heart and one mind that way, right?

Yeah, we were, yeah. We'd look at it and I'd say, isn't it great that we don't need that? And then she'd look at some say, isn't it great we don't need that? It was our way. It was our way of processing the idea that you don't have to buy everything you see.

Right, right. Or put it on credit, which I'm sure we're going to get to today with our guest, Matt Bell. He's the managing editor at Sound Mind Investing. He's the author of five personal finance books and the Matt About Money blog. He earned a master's degree from DePaul University, offers video training on biblical money management through Right Now Media, and he's spoken at churches, universities, and conferences.

Around the U.S., he and his wife, Jude, and their three children live near Louisville. You gotta say that right, not Louisville, Louisville. And their featured resource is his book, Starting Strong: Discovering the Good That Money Can Do in Your Marriage. You can find out more at buildingrelationships.us.

Well Matt, welcome to Building Relationships. Thanks so much, Gary. It's a pleasure to meet you, and it's an honor to be on your program.

Well, as I understand it, the parable of the prodigal son had a big influence on your life and how you look at money management. Is that true? Yeah, that's absolutely right. I like to call it my unintentional reenactment of the parable of the prodigal son. Basically, the short version of the story is that when I was in my mid-20s, I inherited about $60,000 from an uncle and had no idea he was planning to leave me any money, so it was this great surprise, a wonderful gift.

And I had good intentions with that money. I thought, this is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. I'm going to do something worthwhile. I thought I would create my dream job out of that. And so I liked to golf and I liked to travel and I was trained as a reporter.

So I kind of mixed those three things together and came up with a newsletter for people who take golf vacations. And while it lasted, it was amazing. It was everything I dreamed it could be. I was traveling regularly. I was playing these amazing golf courses like Pebble Beach and California and the courses along Spain's Costa del Sol.

Never mind the fact that I wasn't attracting very many paid subscribers to this newsletter. I had what seemed like an endless supply of money in the bank and so I just kept going. But two years later, Into that whole experience, I literally woke up one day to the realization that I was in financial trouble. I'd run through the entire $60,000 and then another $20,000 on credit cards because I was just so blind to what was happening with that money and so acclimated to this amazing life I was living that when the real money ran out, I just kept funding it all on credit cards. And so I was in deep trouble and went from living the life to living in my parents' basement in the small town where I grew up.

But God used that in some life changing ways. I came to faith through that, which would have been plenty to come out of that experience. But I also got really interested in learning about money. I figured anybody who could take 60 and turn it into negative 20 in two years' time, and it has a few things to learn. And so, I just became a sponge about all things money.

And when I became a Christian, I was amazed at how much the Bible teaches on this topic.

So, the second really good thing to come out of that is that it introduced me to my life's work, which I've just loved doing this. I love writing and speaking about biblical money management and helping people learn God's approach to money.

Well, it's it's desperately needed in today's world, that's for sure. Let's look at your own marriage or talk about your own marriage. Did you and your wife begin your marriage on the same page as far as money goes? You know, in some ways, I'd say yes. Temperament-wise, we both, our secondary temperaments are both melancholic.

So that kind of works because that's the temperament that really takes to the use of a budget most readily. But in some more evident ways, more visible ways, we were not. It's kind of ironic, and you'll see why in a second here. But when we got married, She had she was giving a higher percentage of her income. She had more in savings, more in investments.

She had a Paid-off car that was two years newer than my paid-off car, and um, and so we were kind of in different places financially. And I say it's ironic because I'm eight years older than she is, so I had plenty of time to get my financial act together. And at the time, I was making about three times as much as she was making because she was in ministry full-time working for crew, and I was in corporate America.

So, and yet she was in better shape because she had been doing the right things with money for a long time. Whereas I, as I just explained, was living maybe a little bit more of a colorful financial life. I think there are couples that can identify with that.

Now many couples don't talk about finances until they're already in the middle of tension over, you know, money. What are the first conversations you believe every engaged or newly married couple should have about money? Yeah, that's a great question. I think it's, you know, when you're first getting to know somebody, that's not the time to put them under the microscope and find out how much debt they have and how much they have in investments. But as the relationship gets more serious, I think it's important to find out about each other's past because how we saw our parents deal with money.

growing up is very influential in how we manage money.

Some people do it the same.

Some people go in completely different directions.

So I think, and those can be sort of interesting conversations and not too threatening early on. But as the relationship gets more serious, especially as you get engaged and certainly, if possible, before you get married, now I think it's time to get more specific.

Now it's time to find out really, you know, where is each person financially?

So debt, investments, how much do you earn? I think all that needs to be on the table before you actually say, I do. You just don't want to enter marriage with any big financial surprises. Boy, I run into that in a counseling office where they didn't find out the other one was in debt for twenty thousand dollars, you know, before they got married. Why didn't you tell me that?

You know. Wow. Goodness, goodness. How about you, before you and your wife married? Uh what was the best financial advice uh and or marriage advice that that you two received?

Yeah, I love that question because we received some really good financial advice. I mean, I was already working in stewardship ministry at the time when we got married, and I had gotten out of debt before we got married. But I'll tell you, the pastor who counseled us before we got married gave us some really, really helpful advice that I try to pass along to as many couples as possible. And that is, if you're a two-income couple, if that's what it's going to be true when you get married, live as if you're a one-income household.

So, because especially if you desire to have one partner stay home with kids, if you're blessed with children, that's going to be so important. It's so hard to get acclimated to a two-income lifestyle and then go down to one. That's really tough for a lot of people to do. But if you never get acclimated to that in the first place, it makes it so much easier.

So, we gave off of both of our incomes. As I said, Jude was in full-time ministry. I was working in corporate America. And so, we gave off of both of the incomes, but we bought a condo about 10 months into our marriage. We rented initially and then we bought a condo.

We bought a condo that we could afford on my income alone. That was really important. And other major lifestyle decisions we based on one income.

So we were able to bank a lot of her income. anticipating the day, praying for the day that we would have kids and she'd be able to step out of the paid workforce.

So we kind of got ahead on some of the savings things. And we enjoyed some margin. We went on some nice trips during that time. Our first child came along four years into our marriage. And so we had a chance to do some nice traveling and all.

But I'll tell you, it was hugely important to not get acclimated to a lifestyle that required both incomes. That was huge for us. And then the best marriage advice, I think, was to pray together every day. I can't say in 27 years of marriage we've never missed a day, but we've made that a priority, and that's been so helpful in our marriage because, you know, as you know, praying together is a very intimate thing. It's also kind of a humble thing.

You've got to come together with humility to come before God and pray together at the end of the day. There are some times when we might have some unresolved issue from the day, and if we're not in the best place in our marriage, but we're exhausted and we need to get some sleep, we might pray the Lord's prayer because that's a little easier. But we will pray, and we have prayed throughout our marriage together. Those are two good pieces of advice. And I I would guess that not many couples, unless they've been challenged to this, who are a two-income family are living on the one income.

Probably haven't even thought about it. That's absolutely true. I've said across the table from a couple, I still have this vivid memory of the marriage was in trouble because they had gotten acclimated to a two-income lifestyle, two financed cars, a mortgage that required both of those incomes, just getting used to going out to eat regularly in these two incomes. And then one of them lost their job. And there was not only fear, but there was some anger that I could see in their faces.

And so, boy, if a couple will start out their marriage living on one income mostly, that would be a very good thing. Matt, uh you write about uh the way each person is financially wired. How can understanding the spouse's financial temperament change the way couples communicate? This is huge. I'm fascinated with temperament because temperament is how God has wired us up.

So, one person's temperament is not good or bad. It just, it's the way God intended for them to be. And yet, temperament really impacts so many things, and certainly money, not just money, but certainly how we come at money. And when you discover your temperament, and there's different classification systems out there, but if you just start with the simple, the simplest classification system that's out there of the choleric, melancholic, phlegmatic, sanguine, if you just kind of grasp that basic understanding of your wiring, that will explain a lot. And it'll be so helpful because each temperament comes with certain inherent money management strengths and certain inherent money management weaknesses.

I think that a lot of the Arguments couples get into about money are not really about what it seems like they're about. They're a clash of temperaments. One person might be more fearful than the other person, one person might be more confident than the other person. And it's not right or wrong, but it's by understanding how God has intentionally designed each person.

Now we can start to work from each other's strengths and try to work around each other's weaknesses.

So I think temperament is just an endlessly fascinating and endlessly helpful kind of tool in the toolkit. I'm guessing that a lot of our listeners have never even thought about that. How the temperament plays into the decisions we make regarding money. I don't know. I just.

Because we often think of temperament and personality differences in other areas, but Yeah, but that that's one of the positive things I think about this book. What practical steps can couples take to prevent debt, stress? and different spending habits from becoming long term problems in the marriage.

Well, I'll tell you, as much as I'm a fan of understanding each other's temperaments, which does address some of these different issues that you just mentioned, I also am a huge fan of this very unpopular tool called budget. I prefer to call it a cash flow plan. But I'll tell you, if a couple will put together a cash flow plan, that's this tool that enables them to sort through their financial priorities together, make some decisions about: hey, we have a limited amount of money coming into our household. How are we going to prioritize these things? And perhaps, and I'd strongly recommend that no debt other than a reasonable mortgage would be a good goal to strive for.

It might not be there at the start of the marriage, but that'd be a good goal to strive for. As a couple comes together and uses this tool, they'll see that it's not what they thought it was. There's a lot of dislike of budgets just as people think about it. And yet it's such a tool of freedom and it's such a tool that fosters teamwork and transparency. Make some decisions for you.

You know, if you've decided, hey, together, we're going to prioritize generosity and we're going to prioritize saving and investing for the future and we're going to prioritize not taking on debt and we're going to build a plan around those things.

Now that plan becomes this really useful tool because we've decided together, this is how we're going to pursue how we're going to manage money as a couple together. And that can make some decisions for you, which makes decision making a lot easier. You could say, we've committed to not carrying debt or to accelerating the payoff of current debt. And so that it doesn't make sense to take the big European vacation this year. We're going to go to Michigan on the beach for a long weekend.

We're going to make some decisions for the good of this plan that we put together through prayer and through conversation.

So if you have the plan, then you've got a guideline. That's what I hear you saying. That's right. Yeah, it's a blueprint for how you're going to manage the resources that God has entrusted to you. And so it's just this, you know, people think of a budget as something you go on, you know, like a diet.

That's the terminology they use. We can't go out to eat this weekend. We're on a budget. It's not something you go on. It's a tool you use to manage money successfully.

Yeah, yep.

Okay, let's say there's a couple listening and she wants to save money for the kids' college education. and he wants to go buy a boat. How do they process that? Yeah, well, and there too, that's like decision-making in advance.

So, you know, as you structure, as you design your blueprint, as you design your cash flow plan, it's about, you know, hopefully it's about generosity first. I think that's a biblical approach to money. Hopefully, it's about saving and investing second. That's just really good practical advice. And then it's about spending.

And the spending gets further prioritized by essential spending versus discretionary.

Now, the boat looks more like discretionary to me, but the college could be more essential. Again, it has to do with a couple coming together to talk about: look, if we have kids already or if we're blessed with kids in the future, how much of the college expense are we planning to cover? And you can, there's a lot of online, free online calculators. You can figure out what's reasonable and what does that look like on a monthly basis in order to pursue that goal. But again, discretionary, I think, comes last.

And that may not Like a lot of fun, but look, if you're just out spending anything you want whenever you want, that's going to be a problem.

So, for the good of the marriage, the good of managing money in a way that reflects and that honors God, I think we have to prioritize things in the order that I talked about. And, like I said, when it comes to spending, it's like what are the essential expenses? It's the housing payment, it's the grocery payment, it's the utilities and the insurance. And now, what have we got available for discretionary? And when it comes down to that, that pot of money that's available for discretion, that's vacations, that's things like the boat or hobbies or things like that.

Now, let's talk about it. What do we have available? Let's reason it out together and let's decide together on how we're going to sort out those priorities. Let me stick up for the guy with the boat. He has said that the kids are going to go to college on that boat, so it's kind of a homeschool thing.

So, would that work? No, I'm teasing, but somebody's got to stick up for him. I actually know a couple where a guy bought a boat and didn't even ask his wife about it. I'm not sure how the marriage survived, but the marriage did survive that. It's just, you know, communication is a good thing.

Transparency is a good thing. Teamwork is a good thing. Yeah. I found that's one of the major things I run into in the counseling office is they someone makes a huge purchase without consulting the spouse. Wow.

And it's you just set yourself up for trouble, not only financially, but relationally. Yeah. You write that a strong financial foundation frees couples to love God. Love others. and then make a difference.

What does it look like in everyday life? Yeah, those are, you know, kind of the broad brush. To me, as I look at scripture, I see that those are the three overarching purposes of our lives. You know, when Jesus was asked what's most important, he said, love God and love people. And then in Ephesians 2:10, talks about how we've been made for lives of good deeds prepared in advance for us to do.

And so to love God, love people, and make a difference in this world. And so that's really big picture. That's very, those are overarching goals. But to me, those are the three overarching purposes of money.

So, look, if you're buying groceries and you're in the cereal aisle, that's not the time to stop and say, Will this, you know, enable me to love God, love people, and make a difference? And although maybe, but probably it doesn't need to go that far. But if you're making a big decision, like a house, and now you start to think about it through that filter, will this much house in this location enable me to love God, love people, and make a difference? You know, some people, I mean, mortgage, I don't want to criticize people in the real estate industry. Industry, but sometimes you hear these phrases of you'll grow into the mortgage.

I'm not crazy about that idea. I'm crazier about the idea of I can afford the mortgage today. And I've got some guidelines in the book about what that looks like specifically. But, you know, some people get so enamored with a house that now they're way out of the city where they work. They've got a long commute in order to afford the sort of house and the amenities that they wanted.

But is that enabling you to love your spouse well that you're going to be commuting for 45 minutes to an hour each way, each day? Or is the house that may not be quite as attractive to you, that's closer to your work, that means more time together with your spouse, is that the decision that will enable you to better love your spouse?

So I just, yeah, I'm not saying it's a black and white decision. I'm not saying it's crystal clear, but I just think it's helpful, especially with those big decisions like that, to stop and look at these decisions through those filters. Is this honoring to God? Is this enabling me to love my spouse well? And is this enabling me to have the kind of margin I need to be able to hear and respond to God's call on my life?

Yeah. What about the couples who feel like they've already made mistakes with money? Yeah, and they're just struggling with what do they do? Where do you start? Yeah, I would say two things.

I would say it depends on what those mistakes were. If there's some forgiveness that's needed, you know, perhaps somebody had a secret account. I hear about that happening quite a, you know, more often than you might expect. And now they're realized and they feel convicted. I think there's going to be some forgiveness and some healing of the relationship and some rebuilding of trust that's needed there.

But for other people, it may be something more like. Um, just wiping the slate clean. I mean, right now, you know, nobody comes to, you know. 20 years into a marriage with a clean slate. You've got some miles under the belt and you've got some decisions that have been made.

But I like to encourage people to wipe the slate clean. What would an ideal financial plan, a spending plan, cash flow plan look like at this stage? We might be far from it, but let's wipe the slate clean and create the ideal. And now, how do we get there? Does that mean today we're going to stop using credit cards?

Today we're going to stop going further into debt. We're going to make a decision in faith to do those things. And I'll tell you, Gary, I've seen couples do some radical things to get into a better place spiritually, to get into a better place maritally, to get to a better place emotionally. I've seen people, I know of two couples that have sold homes. One of them, I think actually in both cases, they were dream homes that these couples pursued.

And when they got into these dream homes, they realized it was hurting their marriage. It was so expensive. It was not affordable. It was hindering their ability to save for their future and for their kids' college. They sold their home.

And moved, in one case, moved in for free to the basement of another couple. These are difficult decisions. These are embarrassing sometimes, and certainly uncomfortable and time-consuming, and not easy. But I just think we believe in a big God, so it starts with that conviction that something's got to change, and then it comes down to holding everything with an open hand and saying, even this house, as difficult as it would be to sell this house. This is what we're going to do for the sake of the marriage and for the sake of getting to a better place financially.

So, is getting to a better place possible? Absolutely. And it starts with decisions made in faith, and then it steps into holding everything with an open hand and questioning everything. I've seen couples go from two-car households to one-car households when they just assumed that couldn't possibly work. But there are things that can work on a very practical basis to get to a better place.

So even couples have been married 10 or 20 years and they're r in a really, really, really bad place, I'm hearing you saying there can always be a reset. There can always be a rebuilding of unity. Absolutely. And don't try to do it alone. You know, come alongside another couple that perhaps you admire.

You see that they're kind of keeping things real financially in their lives, or seek some help through their church. There are many churches with really wonderful stewardship ministries or a trusted pastor, a counselor. Don't try to do it on your own. Seek some community, seek some assistance with it. This is the Building Relationships with Dr.

Gary Chapman podcast. He's the author of the New York Times bestseller, "The 5 Love Languages" . We're talking with author and stewardship expert Matt Bell today. His book is our featured resource at buildingrelationships.us. It's titled Starting Strong, Discovering the Good That Money Can Do in Your Marriage.

You can hear our conversation again or suggest it to someone else right there at buildingrelationships.us or go to fivelovelanguages.com. Matt, what do you think about separate bank accounts for the husband and the wife? Yeah, I strongly encourage people to have joint accounts. Not every account can be made joint. An individual retirement account, after all, is an individual retirement account.

But all the accounts, savings account, checking account, things that can be joint, I strongly encourage that because it just fosters unity. It fosters teamwork and trust. And there was actually an interesting study out of Indiana University not that long ago that found that couples that combine their finances tend to have a higher quality marriage. And the researcher, you know, again, secular university, the researcher said something like: it just seems that when couples are completely transparent and working together, that fosters a level of trust that greatly aids in the happiness of the marriage. Yeah.

That makes sense.

Well, you know, most couples bring a lot of stuff into their marriage. You know, different upbringings, you know, different hopes and dreams, different temperaments, which you mentioned earlier. What foundational areas of common ground should couples seek to find early on in a marriage? Yeah, I think it, you know, this is going to sound kind of big picture, but I think it's really essential. In the book, in one of the opening chapters, I encourage couples to pray five prayers together.

And they may not have a ton to do with really specific, nitty-gritty financial decisions, but they just set the tone for the marriage. And so it's that, you know, number one, we're going to serve the Lord. You know, choose for yourself this day whom we will serve as for me and my household, as for us and our household, we will serve the Lord. Secondly, we'll build our marriage on the firm foundation of God's word. You know, the parable of the wise and the foolish builders.

We're going to build on the solid rock of God's word. Third is we're going to seek unity in our marriage. I love Ecclesiastes, a chord of three strands, not easily broken. When Jude and I were first married and we didn't have any kids, we talked about it's just the three of us, God, Jude, and me. And now that we have three kids, it's just the six of us.

And so we're going to seek that sort of unity in our marriage. The fourth thing is to take To heart the lessons from the parable of the talents, and the first lesson from the parable of the talents is that God owns everything. We are managers of what God has generously entrusted to our care. I'll tell you that in stewardship circles, that may sound like it's been said so many times, it just kind of goes in one ear and out the other. But I'll tell you, that is profound, and that is so different than how our culture teaches us.

But if we will come at money together as a couple with this truth, living from this truth, that God owns everything and we are managers of what He has temporarily entrusted to our care. To me, Gary, that is the foundation of biblical money management. That is the beginning of financial wisdom. And then the last part is that we will direct our use of money to the purposes we talked about earlier.

So, again, big picture, but we will direct our use of money in ways that's honoring to God, that kind of expresses our faith in God, and secondly, that enables us to love well each other and the other people in our lives, and that will free us from the entanglements so many people get into so that we are free to really hear, discern, and respond to God's call in our lives.

So, those are big picture prayers, but that's a wonderful starting point for any marriage. Yeah, and the fact that they're praying together about those things, that's uh that's that's very bonding, uh I've always found. Yeah. Now you say that how couples prioritize their use of money will make all the difference in their financial success and marital happiness. What's the usual way that people go about this and what's the better way?

Yeah, I'll tell you, if couples will do this, it'll be a game changer.

So there's only a handful of things you can do with money if you really think about it. You can spend it, you can use it for debt payments, you can save it, invest it, or you can give it away. And the way I just rattled those five things off is the order that our culture encourages in so many ways. If our culture could speak, I'm convinced it would say, great, you're making whatever, $75,000 a year. That means you can live here, drive this, wear that, vacation there.

It's all about spending first. I mean, that's how I lived before I became a Christian. That's the way of the world. And yet the Bible flips it on its head. It says, if you will give first and then save a portion and then invest for the future and then determine how much house you can afford and how much car you can drive and where you can vacation.

And if you will be cautious in your use of debt, I encourage no debt other than a reasonable mortgage. Wow, that is a Game changer. That is so simple. We're going to give first, save second, invest third, and then spend, then decide how much we can afford to spend. And we're going to be cautious about becoming enslaved to creditors.

That is so simple and so effective and so biblical and unfortunately so rare. But wow, if couples from the beginning of their marriage will set up their finances along those priorities, that will make a huge difference in their lives. That is radical in today's culture. It sure is. Not for the Christian.

I mean, who's really walking with God, because that's exactly what the scriptures would tell us. Yeah. So you tell a story of Karen and Scott, who began their marriage with a $50,000 credit card debt that Karen brought into the marriage. What are some of the most important lessons that readers can learn from their story? Out of all the couples I've met where they've been, where they've entrusted me with their story, this is the couple that I just love their story.

It motivates me. It's just a powerful story.

So, as you said, they started out with $50,000 of credit card debt that she brought into the marriage, and he called it a reverse dowry.

So, he had kind of a light sense of humor about the whole thing at the beginning. But I'll tell you, Gary, there are two things I love about their story, especially. One of those things is that in their early days of marriage, Karen felt so bad about all this debt that she brought into their marriage. She would always talk about, My debt is keeping us from doing this. My debt is such a hindrance.

And he always corrected her from the beginning days of their marriage. No, no, no, it is not your, it's our debt. And I just think that is such an act of leadership. That is such an act of love. I mean, I really believe if a couple gets married and one has a lot of debt before they get married, after they get married, they both have a lot of debt.

If one has a lot of wealth before they get married, after they get married, Married, they both have a lot of wealth. That's the essence of oneness in marriage. And the other thing I love about their story is that they gave generously throughout their, I think it was a seven-year journey out of debt. They gave generously. It was just their conviction that, hey, it's not, you know, we're not blaming God for our financial situation.

We feel compelled to give. We're designed in God's image. God is endlessly generous. We're going to live generously. It cost them something.

They couldn't buy a house. They couldn't afford to. They rented for those long seven years because they're getting out of debt and because they're living generously. But I just find that so compelling because, you know, again, for him to have that attitude that this is our debt, we're in this together. And for them to continue to live generously despite their circumstances is just very, very compelling to me.

Yeah. Yeah. And very unusual with a lot of couples, you know, especially the giving part. Most would think, well, let's get the debt paid first, then we can start giving. That's exactly right.

That's great, great advice.

Some couples may fear having children. because of their financial costs. Uh they read about that.

So what would you say to those parents? It kind of tears me up to actually address this issue because I just couldn't imagine not having kids. And so, if God has put it on your heart to have children, and I think He puts it on A lot of people's hearts, and I think that needs to lead, and we will find a way, and God will find a way. I would not ever let costs, let money get in the way of a decision like that. And in a really practical sense, your spending will naturally change.

When you have children, you won't be going out to eat as often, you won't be going on the same types of vacations as before.

So, in just a really practical sense, your money will tend to kind of be rearranged anyway, and you won't miss that. You'll love it. You will so love being a parent that it's just a natural thing that your spending priorities will start to change. I just, I don't know, as a dad, I just can't imagine making that a financial decision. I just think if that's on your heart, that God has put on your heart to have children, I would go forward in faith, and God will provide for you and make that possible.

Yeah, and I think, you know, having children is adds so much to a marriage.

Now, I know it's trying. I know there's a lot of pressure, and I know there's, you know, the whole thing of child rearing is not easy, but it's greatly rewarding. Those of us who have had children, I think, would testify to that. Absolutely. Matt, in the book you talk about Jessica and Alex.

Uh what does their story teach us? Yeah, I love their story. I first met them when they were newly married, new college graduates. They're both in ministry. And they, at the time, this is about 15 years ago.

At that time, they were kind of struggling with: can we afford to give? We're both in ministry, but it was the budget, some crazy practical tool like a budget that showed them that actually they can afford to live generously. But now, flash forward, and they have three kids now, and one of which, their youngest, is severely disabled. A lot of cost involved in that, and both of them still in ministry. And so, you say, well, how do they make that work?

They said the literal words that they used when I talked to them about this is that money doesn't rule their lives. They use a budget, they have a plan, they do all the practical things around money, but money doesn't rule. Their faith does. And so, sometimes that might mean going to a restaurant and being especially generous in their tip to the server. It may not make Practical sense, it may seem like the unwise thing to do, but if they feel led to do that, money doesn't rule.

Their faith rules. And when it comes to their child, a ministry found, actually, I don't even think it was a Christian ministry, to be honest. I think it was just a A nonprofit found out about their situation. We were so compelled by their situation, they held a golf outing fundraiser and ended up sending them a large check that went a long way toward helping them pay for a very expensive van that's equipped to handle their daughter's wheelchair. And so that's just a great example of: money doesn't lead, money doesn't rule.

God, you know, it sounds like a trite phrase, God will provide, but it's actually true. And for them to not let money take that dominant place in their lives, they've just lived this great example of a life. Yeah. Chris, since you wanted to buy that boat, let's go back to the husband who wants a boat. What if he changes his mind and he said, well, Riddle, okay, I'll give up the boat.

What I want to do is to say for retirement. and the wife still pressing the issue of saving money for the children's education. What would you say to that, Matt? Yeah, I'd say two things. I'd say one, from a just really practical standpoint, you know, and I'd want to be careful how I worded this and encourage him to be careful how he words this, perhaps, or how they have a conversation.

But I think it makes more sense to prioritize later years than it does children's education because there are more options around the kids' education. I mean, I love setting the goal and faith that our kids are going to, if they go to college and it's not the right path for every kid, but if they're going to go to college, there are ways to go through college without debt. But if it's needed, there are some financing options available there. Whereas later years, I mean, if you're 70 years old and you, for some sort of physical reason, can no longer work, it's really hard to find a way to finance that.

So I would, from just a really practical standpoint, I would put retirement or later years, I prefer, over child's education. But the other thing I want to be sensitive to here is I just, you know, I wouldn't want any couple to be really, I don't know, domineering in the conversation. I'd want to be careful. I'd want to be thoughtful about why is it that there is such a priority here around the kids' education? And can we, you know, it's not necessarily an either-or sort of thing.

You can be saving wisely for your later years, but at the same time, tucking away some money for the kids' education as well.

Now you talked earlier about the idea. Even if you have two people working in the home, you live on one salary. But talk about the parents who both work outside the home when the children are small. They say they can't make it on one income. What do you say to that family?

Yeah, I say maybe they can. I mean, look, I've seen situations where things were just so tight and every possible option was explored, and maybe they can't. And so I'm not saying I'm not trying to make it sound easy, but I think for a lot of families, there are more options than they may realize. I think that, you know, we get sort of acclimated to what our friends are doing, what our perhaps siblings are doing, and we find ourselves maybe even not really conscious of, but kind of emulating their life. But I think that if there is the desire for one to stay home and it seems impossible, I would just question everything.

As we talked about earlier, holding everything with an open hand, questioning everything. Can we go from two cars to one car? Can we perhaps get into a more affordable living situation? Again, some of these things are not easy and may not be possible for some people, but I'll tell you, there's a radically different cost of living in different parts of the country. I thought that we were going to live in Chicago all of our days and God had other plans and moved us to Louisville, Kentucky.

And I didn't have a great appreciation for what a difference there is in cost of living. Louisville, Kentucky is way less expensive than living in Chicago. Property taxes are less than half. And it makes a big difference. And so I've just questioned everything.

Some of the decisions won't be easy, selling a house, getting to a more affordable situation, going from two cars to one. Maybe it's a longer-term plan. It's not going to happen overnight, but maybe it's about a little bit further education for the primary breadwinner to be able to position themselves for a better, better job. But I just think, again, the idea that money doesn't rule, we're going to make this decision in faith. We feel led to have one person stay at home.

We're going to question everything and we're going to see how God provides. Man, I think you just talked a lot of people into moving to Kentucky, okay? Come on down, it's nice. You talked about the advantages of giving and living generously, which the scriptures certainly encourage us. But when couples start out, they usually don't have a whole lot of money, but they can still give away.

They can still give, right? Absolutely. You know, again, if you will prioritize, you know, wipe the slate clean, you know, I realize people come into marriage with stuff as we talked about earlier, but wipe the slate clean and just what would it look like to design a plan where we're going to give the first portion to the Lord, we're going to save a portion, invest a portion, and then we're going to spend. That might look radically different than how things go today. And you may not get there overnight, but you can get there.

And so I think it's about making it a priority. You know, if giving is first on your priority list, it'll always happen. If saving is second on your priority list, it'll happen. Again, it might take some work to readjust things and figure out the spending thing to get that under control, but I think it's a matter of setting those priorities in faith and pursuing. Again, it might take a couple of years to get your finances rearranged that way, but that's the goal: to give first, save second, invest third, and then decide how much lifestyle you can afford.

Yeah. And I think if giving is our priority, We also will do better in everything else. Amen. Amen. Absolutely.

Now in the book, Matt, you have an appendix. and it helps a couple track their monthly cash flow. How important is keeping track of the flow? It is so important. And that's the part of using a cash flow plan that people really don't like, the keeping track.

So there are some automated tools out there. There are some online tools you can get into. If someone hasn't used a cash flow plan at first, just start with paper and pencil or an Excel spreadsheet. But eventually, when you move up to an online tool, it can do some of the work for you. But again, we're managing God's resources.

We need a tool to manage his resources. Otherwise, we're just guessing and hoping it's all going to work out at the end of each month.

So it's really helpful that way. There's also research out there that shows that a marriage will suffer if one spouse thinks the other one spends money irresponsibly. A budget, I love the idea of like structural things that we set up in our marriage just for the good of the marriage, for the good of our relationship with Christ. And a budget is one of those tools. It sounds so practical.

It sounds so boring, and yet it is so powerful. I think it's the most powerful tool anybody can use to manage money effectively and with peace of mind. And so tracking, now we're working from knowledge. If you're tracking your use of money, now you're not maybe accusing the spouse of overspending and so now you know, you have some actual information, and that's the most powerful position to be able to truly manage money.

So, someone who's not used a budget before, wow, I strongly encourage just take it on faith. It will serve you so well. Yeah. Well Matt, let me thank you for being with us today and thank you for writing this book. I think it's going to be really helpful.

I like the fact that it's so practical. I also like the fact that you follow the biblical pattern that we begin by honoring God and then God will help us with all the rest of it. And also the emphasis that you have along the way that happiness is not found in a collection of things. It's found in relationships, you know? First of all with God, then with your spouse, and then with other people.

Well, so thank you again for being with us today. Thank you so much, Gary. I really appreciate the opportunity. What if the wife wants to buy the boat?

Okay, all right. I'll stop. I'll get off the boat. Again, the title of our featured resource is Starting Strong: Discovering the Good That Money Can Do in Your Marriage. It's by our guest, Matt Bell, and you can find out more at buildingrelationships.us.

Again, go to buildingrelationships.us. And next week. How to find God's Purpose in Your Suffering and Struggles. Dustin Crowe says, your wilderness is not a waste. Hear more in one week.

A big thank you to our production team, Steve Wick and Janice Backing. Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman is a production of Moody Radio in Chicago in association with Moody Publishers, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute. Thanks for listening.