If you're the parent of a pre-teenager, don't miss today's Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman. If you have preteens, you think that they're not listening, they're not paying attention, but just keep going because those are seeds that you are planting. With all the pressures that our kids are dealing with now, God still will lead each individual parent to engage with each individual child, and I think that's incredibly hopeful. Welcome to Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman, author of the New York Times bestseller, "The 5 Love Languages" .
Well, the preteen years are hard for parents and kids. How can you navigate the complexities of today's world with grace and love? That's what we'll talk about straight ahead. And we have two guests for you, Tricia Goyer and Leslie Nunnery. They've teamed to write today's featured resource, Faith That Sticks, five real-life ways to disciple your preteen.
Just go to buildingrelationships.us to find out more. And Gary, I know you have a heart for parents who are right in the middle of raising preteenagers. I do indeed. I remember I wrote a book some years ago called Things I Wish I'd Known Before Our Children Became Teenagers. So I'm excited about this topic, and I think our listeners will be, and I think this book is going to help them. So yeah, I'm great to have Tricia and Leslie with us today.
Let me introduce them. Tricia Goyer is a speaker, podcast host, USA Today best-selling author of more than 90 books. She writes fiction and nonfiction. She's a wife, a homeschooling mom of 10, and mentors writers from Little Rock, Arkansas. Leslie Nunnery, her co-author, is co-founder of Teach Them Diligently. She's a mom of four. She inspires Christian parents to embrace biblical discipleship and intentional parenting. Together they've written Faith That Sticks, five real-life ways to disciple your preteen.
We have it linked at the website buildingrelationships.us. Well, Tricia, I want to know, first of all, how can you write 90 books? Yes. You know, a little bit every day. It's actually my break from my kids. It's like, sorry kids, I have to go work on this book right now. Well, good for you, girl.
I'm impressed. Well, what inspired the two of you to write this book, Faith That Sticks? And why did you feel this book was so important for today's parents?
Yeah, I will jump in with that. So I am blessed to be one of the speakers at the Teach Them Diligently conference that Leslie and her husband, David, run. And when we're there, we get to talk with a lot of parents. We interact with them at the booths. And there was lots of books for parents of teenagers and little kids. But there's a lot of questions coming up about preteens.
Leslie and I both get those questions. And really, it's that time when you have this sweet little kid that they love to read out loud. They love sitting with you. They love going on walks and suddenly they might be dressing weird.
They're rolling their eyes. They're changing before you. And all the worries and the fears start coming up in parents.
And so Leslie and I really were just wanting to encourage parents and assure them that they're not going to lose their kids. In fact, they can really press in and this time can be a really great time to disciple them and draw them closer to God. Well, talk about the word discipling.
That's almost a lost art in today's world. What is the concept of discipling and how does it apply to preteens? I always love to talk about discipleship. Discipleship essentially is leveraging what God has taught you on behalf of someone else. And so in context of a family, that is parents particularly leveraging the things that God has taught them through the years and in their morning time with God on behalf of helping their children learn it earlier, avoid the mistakes they made, really just getting in and pointing your children towards Jesus day by day. And so as parents, we have just an incredible opportunity to go for the hearts of our children.
And then we have a front row seat to see how God is working in their lives day by day, which honestly can be a little scary as well as exciting because we see all the stumbles and missteps just as along with all of the good things that God's doing. Well, what did each of you learn while writing this that maybe you wish you had known before you were parenting preteens? Well, the funny thing is I'm just getting out of the preteen years.
Our oldest is 35 and we have three biological and we have adopted seven kids and our youngest is 14. So I am still I feel like right there. And I just had a conversation the other night at dinner with a therapist.
She's a trauma therapist. And because we adopted kids from foster care, there's some trauma stuff. And I'm like, I don't know what to do. I just feel like I'm not connecting with my 14 year old son. He just wants to argue. And I went into this and she's like, that's all 14 year old boys.
That's not it's not trauma. And I'm like, I just wrote a book on this. Like I just wrote a book. And I'm like, I need to go back and read my book and the advice I gave. And because I think we we think that it's just our kid and we're doing something wrong.
And there's all these problems coming. But really, it is that reminder, which I'm still reminding myself daily, like this is the time they kind of want to figure out life themselves. They want to try things out. You know, parents might not they think might not have all the answers.
Let me see what's out there. But of course, we know we have God's truth. We have prayer.
We have these things that we're going to talk about. But it's just a reminder. I'm like, I'm still reminding myself that it's going to be okay. This is a normal part of having kids this age.
Well, yeah. And I think that Tricia kind of alluded to it, but there's so much fear that pops into the heart and mind of a parent during this time. And I certainly struggle. I talk in the book about how there were times, especially with my boys, where I almost became paralyzed with fears because I was so afraid and so aware of the things that were coming at them. I knew they were high value targets to the enemy. And so one thing that I really wish that I had known that I found out in researching for this book is all of the physiological and emotional and developmental changes that are going on in them. Because I think that sometimes, a lot of times probably, I miss assessed what was going on and it made me freak out and get so scared when actually it's a normal brain development thing that's leading to hormone rushes or emotional instability. It's a normal insecurity that I had the privilege of helping them work through and pointing them to Jesus and helping them understand they're fearfully and wonderfully made. And instead of knowing all of that and seizing those moments, I'm afraid that I may have allowed that fear to make me react poorly or not react at all in situations where I had a great opportunity to help my kiddos.
Well, those are lessons I hope that people are listening to us today are going to get a taste of and I hope that this, I know this book is going to help them because what you're sharing is what many of us felt at that stage of parenting. Why is the pre-teen stage such a critical time for discipleship and faith development? I alluded a second ago to the development that's going on inside our kids' brains and during this time, they are getting the ability to think more abstractly.
We joke all the time that, you know, we've gone from black and white to various shades of gray, but that's really true. They're able to take things that aren't necessarily black and white and they're starting to put pieces together and connect the dots on things. They're getting a much more mature way of thinking and so all of those lessons that they learned while they were little, the accounts from Scripture, the songs, the things that we were so diligent to teach them, now we have the opportunity during this pre-teen stage to help them take that a little further, to see how they connect those dots with their real life today, to see how Jesus' love for them and others around them impacts the way that they make choices. And so just by virtue of the way that they are developing, if we are intentional in the way that we are approaching them and Building Relationships with them and discipling, shepherding their hearts, we will have an amazing opportunity to disciple and help them form a faith that really is truly their own and that will stick with them for the rest of their lives because we're giving them a really solid foundation to build it on. Yeah, and I think too, I will add in there, so having older kids really helped me as I continue to go through these pre-teen years because I realized even when it seems like they weren't paying attention, maybe we weren't doing as much Bible study because we were getting basketball or different things in, but we were trying. Making sure that we're at least doing something even if it seems like they're not paying attention or they're like, oh, we have to read this again, it all matters when they get to be adults. I realized like, oh, they were listening or, oh, they did incorporate that into their life. And so when we adopted kids, actually four of them that we adopted were ages 11, 13 year old twins and a 15 year old when they moved into our home. And they go from first a really hard environment to being in foster care for five years to all of a sudden they're in our house. And I'm like, we're going to homeschool and we're going to read God's word every day and we're going to pray, even if it's just one sentence, everyone's going to pray. And they were just like, where have we landed?
It was like Mars to them. But because I had older kids and I had like realized like even it seems like they're not paying attention or they really don't want to do it, just continue on. And I would say, you know, just put your head down. You just, you know, I'm going to read the Bible just, we're all going to do this.
This is going to be something we're going to do. They weren't interested. They didn't seem like they were paying attention at all. And years later, they'll say, remember when you said that? Remember when you talked about that? I remember we talked about David and how emo emotional he was. He was like, I am but a worm, not a man. And they just thought that was hilarious. And they will bring that up. Like, I'm being really emotional, just like David.
I am but a worm. And I'm like, it matters. And so I just really want to encourage, if you have preteens, know that you think that they're not listening.
They're not paying attention. But just keep going because those are seeds that you are planting. Trisha, you mentioned earlier the mood swings, the eye rolls and those kind of things.
You deal with those topics in the book and more, of course, and you recall your own journeys. Was it difficult to remember what life was like as a preteen? I think we always forget how hard it is to be a kid and to feel like we don't even really know ourselves. I think that preteen age is they don't know, like, do I like this kind of music?
Do I like this kind of clothes? Maybe I want my hair this way. They're just trying to figure out where they fit in the world. When I was a preteen, I thankfully my family moved near a library and I discovered books. Like I became engrossed in reading and books.
And I'm so thankful for that. But I remember looking back, I'm like, why did I wear those clothes or why did I have my hair that way? And it really is you were just trying to figure out who you are. And so I think sometimes when our kids act a certain way, may wear clothes. Or I remember my oldest daughter when she was a preteen, all of a sudden I want to wear dark eye makeup. Like she just barely started wearing makeup and now she wants to do this dark eye makeup. And I'm like, oh my goodness, she's going to go gothic or all these things. She is not. She's a missionary now. Like she is fine.
She dresses normal, but they're just trying to figure out who they are. And we forget that. We forget like we were doing the same thing. I was in the 80s with the big hairspray hair sticking up everywhere. I mean, we're just trying to figure out who we are.
Yeah. Yeah, I actually remember sitting on a plane as we were kind of finishing this book up. And I guess because I was bored on a plane, I started thinking about that. Like, what was it really like? And one of the thoughts that the Lord struck me with at that point was you really should have thought about this when you were raising preteens.
That would have been really helpful. But because, you know, during my preteen years, we moved several times, different states all over the place. I was constantly having to make new friends.
I was super shy at the time and just it was very awkward and very difficult. But what really stands out more than anything for me personally is that despite a lot of upheaval, despite I can echo the 80s stuff and all the things, the bad looks that Tricia was talking about, did all of those things. But when I kind of got past that and I look back, I realized that my parents navigated that magnificently. I think that that had a huge impact on the way that I then shepherded my children through that without me knowing, you know, any of the stuff that I know now from writing the book, just kind of doing the next thing, taking the next step, helped my sister and I walk through those difficult years without crashing and burning like so many do.
You know, you hear about the statistics and we have some of this in the book, too. The middle school, that preteen time is really, really hard on kids nowadays. The pressures, just the emotions, it's much more intense than anything that we would have experienced growing up. And so just staying engaged with them like my parents did with me, that's really one of the things God just really impressed on my heart.
And I went to my parents and thanked them because I doubt that I ever had before. But I found such hope in that, recognizing, you know, God's plan for families is so beautiful. And He gives parents wisdom as they just do the next thing, just pray the next prayer, engage in the next conversation. And so even in those crazy, crazy years with all the pressures that our kids are dealing with now, God still will lead each individual parent to engage with each individual child. And I think that's incredibly hopeful.
I certainly would agree with that. You say that there are five key areas that provide a roadmap for parents who feel overwhelmed or unequipped. Tell us those five areas and why are they so important? I'll start with the first three and then let Tricia come in with the last couple.
And honestly, all of the five that we have in there are easy. They're things that make a lot of common sense to do, but it's really in the follow up. It's in how you apply and how you actually start doing these within your homes that you see great changes. So the first three are prayer, Bible reading and family relationships. Prayer is something that you've probably done together since they were very young. You say your prayers around the table. A lot of times families will take prayer requests and pray together or praises and pray together during family devotions. And that is something that as your kids are getting to be preteens, you have the opportunity to really train them to go even deeper in the way that they are praying.
You're able to use that time to engage with them and let them know that you care about the things that matter to them. That's a very easy way to really allow prayer to strengthen relationships, honestly. And then, of course, parents should be praying for their children very, very strategically. In the back of our book, there is a list of scriptures that you can pray for your children that I did the whole time my kids were growing up. But very strategic ways that you can pray scripture for your children and then allow the Lord to lead you as He answers those prayers, give you opportunities, give you the words to say it's pretty amazing when you are praying for your kids how God will lead you. So first is prayer. Second is Bible reading. And that's something that I think a lot of people make too hard.
They overthink it. Bible reading together is really just that. You don't have to get so hung up on family devotions having a perfect program and a perfect cadence to it. A lot of times for our family, we would just read a psalm and then discuss it. So Bible reading together is really important, but also how you're modeling for your kids that you're in God's Word, that your spouse is in God's Word, that you all are growing and changing.
Because again, like I said at the beginning, discipleship is leveraging what God is teaching you on behalf of the other, of someone else. And so you're able to leverage the fact that you're in God's Word every day to bring your kids along and help them form that relationship too. That's one of the things that God gave me as an idea when the kids were really, really young.
And again, it came through praying scripture. I prayed that they would know God's Word. And so the Lord just started prompting me to talk to my very little kids at breakfast what God had shown me in my devotions that morning.
So I just started telling them every day. Well, as the years progressed, I realized that first of all, the only Christians that my kids saw in the morning were me and David, and they would get up and see both of us in God's Word. So to my kids, that's what Christians did. So it actually became easier for them to start building the habit of getting God's Word every day because it was introduced at a very young age.
Now, not to say that any of us are perfect. However, we were whetting their appetite for that. And so then they started talking about what they were reading in their devotions as well. And so Bible reading became just really part of the fabric of our home.
And it just started with God answering that prayer and giving one little idea that I had no idea how consequential that little idea was going to be. So you've got prayer, Bible reading, and then family relationships just really prioritizing time with your kids, time as a family, coming up with those special traditions and things that you do that show this is the culture of our family. This is where you belong. This is where you are loved unconditionally. Those relationships go an awful long way towards giving your kids the stability and helping them to combat the insecurity that comes at them during this time. But it also gives you a great platform to disciple them and to help them build that faith that sticks.
Yeah. And I'll just jump in with conversations. We always often want to sit down and just look our kids in the eye and say, what did you learn today or how was your day? And they're like, fine, nothing.
It's hard for them to connect. And so really, when we're going on a ride in the car, I'll do errands and take one of my kids and we'll stop and get a smoothie. We might talk for 30 minutes about whatever video game they like, the baseball score from last night, whatever. The last five minutes as we're going home, the important thing will come up. Or at 11 o'clock at night, the important thing will come up because they're finally connected with us. And really, conversation is that connection for us, like Leslie was saying, with relationships. When we're doing life together, when we're having fun together, when they trust that we're listening to them, when we're not looking at our phones, they will have those conversations, but it takes a buildup. It's not going to be immediately like, sit down, look at me and tell me all your deepest, darkest fears and secrets. That's not how preteens work.
So we really want to have that side by side time. And then service. For years, my kids, I helped start a crisis pregnancy center. My older kids, they were there with us. My husband and I led Children's Church for many years. They were there with us as we adopted kids. I supported teen moms.
I took my girls, preteen girls, and they helped babysit. They helped do meals for these teen moms. And it's just showing that this is what we do. And we're serving together. They meet other great Christian men and women who are serving and becomes part of who they are. And when they're used to serving in church, they're more engaged. It's not something you show up to, to be entertained.
It's something you're part of, to care for others, and that really makes a big difference. Hmm. Yeah. That conversation reminds me of the time when mine were preteens. And you mentioned it, you alluded to it. Often, they want to talk, and it's late at night. It's their bedtime. And I remember, they ask questions, and I just start sitting down on the floor, you know, walking to the bed and all, and probably prayed and all, but they bring up something. And I just realized, okay, they're bringing it up. This is the time to talk about it, because they may not bring it up tomorrow, you know, or they may not bring it up in a week. But if it's on their minds, we need to be open to the conversations.
That's for sure. Well, can each of you share, like, a real-life example that you outline in the book on how to disciple preteens? Can you think of one real-life example from each of you? Well, I can tell you, kind of lopping back to the conversation arena there, there are several times that I remember jumping to just the worst possible conclusion. Like, I would see something going on. The Lord would really prick my heart that I needed to focus in on one of my kids.
And I would make assumptions and then often act on those assumptions, you know, like, as if it were true. But I found that when I would step back, and I would feel like the Lord was saying, this child really needs your attention now. And I would do something special with that child, that often through asking questions, I would realize that more often than not, what I was dealing with was either immaturity or, I mean, just honestly, foolishness, and not a deep-seated, you know, black hole of sin, like I had convinced myself that it was.
But it took slowing down and taking the time to ask questions. David and I have reminded each other a lot through the years that questions prick the conscience but accusations harden the will. And so we try really hard when we're going into conversations with our kids to try to get to the bottom of what's really going on in their heart and mind. Because I found, especially with preteens, a lot of times they don't know.
And I feel like it's especially boys. It's like their head is disconnected from their body. There's no reason going into what they do. And so by posing questions to just help them to start making connections for themselves, it's a lot of times that you'll find that what's going on is not really anything to fear. It's something that you can coach them through.
It was maybe a really dumb thing to do, but it's not as bad as what you were bracing for. Whereas if I allowed myself to make those assumptions and then act as if there is this deep sin problem and they're probably walking away from the faith and I'm going to lose them and all of these things that Satan wants to whisper in your head, you know, like, ah, you're just the anxiety riles up. If you react in that way, you actually just escalate the problem and you very rarely get to what's really at the heart of it. And as a parent, we want to get to the heart of what's going on so that we can shepherd them through it. So just taking the time to ask questions and go for the heart of the matter is one of those things that I have found time after time after time after time was incredibly valuable in my parenting career. Yeah.
And I'm going to jump in. I was the thing that came to my mind kind of goes with that. Because in today's world, you'll often hear things, hear them say things like, I don't want to have this conversation.
One example that I give in the book and she gave me permission to share this is one of our preteen daughters that we adopted. And she came up one day as I'm cooking dinner and said, I think I'm bisexual. And I'm like, no, you're not. She goes, why would you say that? I'm like, I see you. I see you checking out boys all the time like that. But then, like Leslie was saying, ask a question.
Why would you say that? And she said, well, I think girls are pretty. And I said, well, all girls think girls are pretty. And she's like, really? I'm like, you look at someone at church and think she looks really pretty today. That doesn't mean anything like you want to become sexually active with that person. We all notice those things, but then continue to like look into it. So what we discovered is that they had an older sister that had aged out of foster care and a friend of that older sister had got her number and was messaging her inappropriate messages.
Our preteen daughter, this older girl, was messaging her inappropriate messages that we were able to stop, block, take care of. But if I would have just been like, the Bible says this and we're going to sit down, I'm going to have a very serious conversation. She probably would have pushed back. But just asking questions, being curious, not letting your jaw drop. Like, it's just like an everyday conversation as I'm cutting this onion right now. You know, it really took away some of the angst, I think, that was in both of us. But also then later, years later, when another younger sister mentioned it, she said, no, you're not. She goes, like mom said, all girls think girls are pretty.
And that girl, that sister goes, okay. And that was like, I'm so thankful. It must have been the Holy Spirit that said that. Because sometimes we get so stressed out and we need to sit down and have, like, they know what God's Word said, you know. We just didn't have these conversations without really making them feel like we're speaking and just shooting all this scripture at them that they are feeling like they have to be defensive.
Yeah, that's excellent. Asking further questions whenever they bring up a topic that might put you into shock is certainly the most positive thing you can do. Well, we all know that there's power in stories. And you all have a number of stories in the book. And you're also vulnerable about mistakes and missteps that you made. Share a little of your own personal parenting experiences where perhaps you look back and realize there was a mistake there or a misstep there. I have a real problem, even to this day.
I try so hard to overcome it, but I have a real problem of wanting to step in and fix things for people and to make everything right. And so I remember one time in particular, my oldest son who, bless his heart, just like all oldest kids are the guinea pig and I get all my experience on him. But I remember when he was a preteen, it just seemed like he was so awkward and he had no friends and my heart just went out for him and I was going to fix that for him. And so, bless my heart, I came up with this brilliant idea to have a sleepover for him and these guys in his class.
I invited everybody because I was going to make this thing just great and he was going to be just full of friendships and it was going to be awesome. And it was not awesome. It was horrifying in most every way. You get that many 10, 11, 12-year-old boys together and they destroy things and they dislike each other and it was just craziness. But God taught me a lot through that. First of all, the evening was miserable. I got scratches on my walls and all kinds of stuff.
It was just a crazy night. But I realized I never once asked him whether that was something that he wanted. I just decided I was going to fix it for him. I was going to put him in a position where he could make good friends and never even thinking that maybe guys are different than girls and they don't engage the same way that girls do.
Or maybe he's still growing up and he needs time to mature into friendships or any of those things. I just really, I guess it kind of boils down to I wanted my own way. I wanted him to have this picture perfect friendship that I had in my head and so I did everything that I could to orchestrate it and God taught me a pretty valuable lesson that day.
It was not pretty. We often learn by our mistakes and missteps. Tricia, does something come to your mind?
Absolutely. Well, I'm trying to pick which one because I have multiple things. But the beginning of the book, we actually have, before we get to the actual five ways, we talk about two things. We talk about technology, social media, all that type of thing. And we also talk about anger and emotions because when we were speaking at conferences, those were the things that people were asking us specifically about with preteens.
So for me, when they want to do something and I'm like on my phone, that's right away the first thing that came to mind. But going even deeper than that, when we have kids that are getting angry, they're upset about something. Suddenly I'm upset and saying, don't talk to me that way.
That's disrespectful. And then jumping immediately to consequences like you can't have television tonight or you can't go to that friend's house. Instead of looking and see why they're getting angry, I would just give consequences until we started going to therapy, especially trauma therapy. And the therapist is like, well, why are they getting angry?
I'm like, I don't know. And she also said, when they're angry and you're jumping straight to consequences, you're not getting to the heart of it. And if you're raising your voice, suddenly they're a victim.
So first of all, they're mad. Then you raise your voice and then all of a sudden they're a victim. So not only are they not able to talk about what's going on, suddenly you're the bad guy and they're a victim.
And then this is bad cycle. And so she's like, so when you stay calm, you win. And so she's like, don't raise your voice. Don't follow them to your room. Don't give them consequences. You stay calm and you can help regulate them.
You can be there when they're ready to talk about it. You could ask questions. And so for me, I was never, I never thought of myself as an angry person and it's not like I was like screaming and yelling, but my voice would raise. I would give consequences.
I would be upset about the way they were treating me. And so really, I remember clearly we have upstairs that the kids' rooms are upstairs and as they're stomping upstairs, I'd be standing at the bottom. If I stay calm, I win.
If I stay calm, I win. And just like letting them go and then later going up, you know, it might be two hours later, like, Hey, what was that about? And after they've calmed down, regulated themselves, then we could have the conversation because in the moment it doesn't help anybody. Yup, yup.
You're exactly right. Great advice. Learn from your situation. This is something we haven't talked about yet. How important is it to have mom and dad on the same page? And then what do you do if you find yourselves disagreeing on some aspect of raising the preteen?
Hmm. It's really difficult if you're not on the same page. And sadly, that's the story in a lot of homes. Both Tricia and John and David and I do a lot of counseling and mentoring with parents. And it's really important that you understand what God has called you to do and that you pray together and work together to get on the same page as to how he wants you to do it. So in a perfect world, we would all be on the same page because it does make it so much easier to disciple your children cohesively, to model for them what life should look like.
You know, all of these things, God's given us this great blueprint for how to do it. We are, however, flawed people. And so there will be a lot of times when you're going to disagree about specifics, even if you have a cohesive big picture view. And so I would just encourage you to be very careful that you are not disagreeing in front of everyone. David and I worked really hard to take our disagreements elsewhere so that we could try to talk it through to get more on the same page or to at least come to a resolution on those things. Kids being as insightful and perceptive as they are can always tell when there's dissension there, and most of them will take advantage of that. And I don't blame them.
I would too. So just trying to at least take the time as a couple to separate yourself from a situation that you may not have the same approach on to discuss and pray through and kind of look at it in context of what God has called you to do holistically and then trying to deal with that specific thing from there. I would just really encourage parents not to sit there and disagree about how to deal with a situation right there in front of the child, because that really puts that kid in a rough situation. But it also undermines your authority in their lives because you guys are kind of wobbly on it, too. So just would encourage you to kind of step away and try to talk it through before you present a non-united front like that with your children.
Yeah. I have an example from Sunday. So Sunday at church, we were a little bit late, and so our kids were sitting right behind us. So there wasn't like five seats in a row.
So John and I were in one row and they were right behind us. And I could hear my 17-year-old whispering to her brother. He's 14. So I turn around a couple times and he's on his phone, which he doesn't have social media or anything, but there's little games on there. And no, he's not supposed to be on his phone. He's supposed to be listening to the sermon. And I looked at him once and, you know, gave him the look and turned back a little while later.
He's still on his phone. So I just took his phone away. I handed it to my husband. Well, at the end of service, my husband handed him back and I just look at him and he must have seen in my eye. And later when we got home away from the kids, he's like, did I do something wrong? I'm like, well, in that moment, I almost felt like bad cop, good cop.
Like, mom took your phone away, but here you go. And I said, next time, like, you know, I didn't know you were holding it. Just next time, maybe if I could just give him back. And he's like, okay. And it was like, that was it. I wasn't mad at him, but he could tell I've like tensed up when he had the phone back. And he's like, okay, that makes sense. It was that simple.
It wasn't, yeah, I didn't blow up in church, you know, but it was that simple that he didn't realize that I felt like being the bad cop and he was a good cop because he was the one that gave the phone back. Yeah. We will have differences. No question about that. But yeah, what you each of you described is how to handle those differences so that we're not communicating to the preteen.
We disagree on this. You all have talked about the value of conversations and the role they play in discipling preteens. How can parents make these conversations more meaningful?
I will add one thing that I think that's really helped with conversations is me kind of sharing the ways I've messed up, whether it's something that I'm struggling with currently and how God's working in my heart or as a teenager or preteen things that I wish I would have had done differently. I think sometimes they might see like, we're just always feel like we have to tell them the right way to do that. And I think when we share kind of our struggles or things, mistakes that we made, it helps them pay attention better because we've not come into them like we have everything right. Because they know they live with us.
We don't do everything right. And it just gives them that that place like, OK, mom's confessing and asking for that forgiveness when we do mess up. It really can change those conversations.
Oh, for sure. And then it's just learning about what's important to them, helping them understand that if they are really into, fill in the blanks, Mario Kart or whatever it is during that time, that's something that was important to me. And so by learning more about the things that they were interested in, it really opened the doors for deeper conversations that mattered.
So it's just like with any other relationship, if you are engaging with someone and all you ever do is talk about very serious things or things that are important to you, that's not always going to be your favorite relationship to just go hang out with. But if you share things that you like, if you get excited about the same things that get them excited, and then you're able to have some deeper conversations mixed in. It's a very natural conversational environment, and it's also a little bit disarming for them. So I think that you get a lot more insight into their heart because they're not putting up these walls. You're having fun together and they're relaxed. And so they just talk very naturally and you get great insight into what's really going on in their hearts that way.
Yeah. We talk about teaching biblical truth to our preteens. But if it's just the one way teaching, you know, like verbalizing biblical truths and all, how do parents open the door for those preteens to ask questions or to express doubts in terms of what we're trying to communicate?
I think that that platform is actually built on a lot of the stuff that we've talked about before. It's you have the relationship with them where they feel comfortable bringing those doubts or questions to you. So you want to, first of all, make sure that you are investing in a relationship with them that makes those harder conversations possible. But then when they do, it's really important that you respond in a way that shows them that you are not freaking out. Like, I've had my kids ask me questions that basically curled my toes.
But it's in those moments you're asking God for the grace and the wisdom to control yourself and to respond in a way that is engaging with them. Those questions are hugely important there. Find out why they're asking it.
Where did they hear it? What's going on underneath the surface that's making them think that way? And then you can start moving on as you're engaging with them to offering insights or direction. And sometimes that conversation is going to be spread across a lot of time. You're going to have to really, really dive in with them and see what that struggle is. But you never want to belittle the struggle.
And you also never want to react so that they're going to recoil and not bring any other struggles to you or not go deeper into that one with you. You want to make sure that whatever you do, you keep that line of communication with your kids open. Because I would much rather be the one that they bring those hard questions to than anyone else in the world. Because God has entrusted their spiritual development during the time they're in my home to me.
And I want to shepherd that really, really well. You know, it's during those times when they're asking those questions, like Leslie says, my husband, he would often say this, well, how's that working out for them? They'll say, well, so-and-so's parents let them do this or so-and-so watches this or so-and-so believes this or so-and-so.
And he'll like, how's that working out for them? What does their life look like? And that really helps kids to take a look. It's not just like they have a different opinion. But OK, so-and-so's parents let them drink or whatever. Like, how how is that showing up in their life? And I think that really helps kids to stop and look like, oh, that's not a good thing. Oh, their parents let them stay up till 2 a.m. Oh, yeah, they're really tired at school or signing school. So instead of just, again, you know, preaching all the time, but I love Leslie brought this up, too, asking really good questions.
Yeah. What about the whole area of technology? Social media, you know, our kids are just flooded with input all around them. How do you disciple a preteen in today's world of technology? I think it's important to know that they are going to see stuff and they are going to be around stuff, even if it's not from us in our home. I remember the first time one of our kids, they came and said something they saw because they were at the neighbor's house. The neighbor kid had the mom's phone that had was able to get on the Internet and find stuff. So, you know, we can block stuff. Our kids have to be a certain age before they get technology. But just be prepared to tell them, like, if someone tries to show you something, it's OK. Like, turn around.
You do not have to watch it. If it makes you feel uncomfortable or you're worried about someone finding out, then that's a sign from the Holy Spirit that God is telling you to prepare them because they will come across those things. And then also let them give them a way out. We always said, if you're at a friend's house and if there's a movie that they want to watch or some video or something on social media that you don't feel comfortable with, say, let me call and ask my mom about that. And then they would call. So we knew if one of our kids called and said, hey, mom, can I watch this or do this or see this? We would say no, because we knew if they were calling, they did not feel comfortable with it. And then they would say, oh, my mom said no. And so we would get those calls.
Nope, you can't. And so I didn't even have to ask questions like, well, what is it? I just knew if they were calling, it was a no because they felt uncomfortable and I was giving them a way out of it. Yeah, and I think it's important that parents also equip their children with why. Why is this a bad idea? Why do we do this in our home?
What does the Bible say about this? Why, why, why? Because as our kids are developing and they're wanting answers, they're thinking more complex, like I noted earlier in the program. This is a great time to start equipping them with the whys so that they can start to build on those whys and come up with their own convictions and their own way of doing things that's built on that same foundation that we've been trying to give them all along.
Well, the book is filled with ideas, good ideas on how to communicate to preteens and help them grow in their relationship with God. But can we guarantee the outcome of our kids if we just do the right things? Don't we wish? Don't we wish we can guarantee the outcomes? And, you know, having 10 kids, I wish I could say every single one of them has always made a good choice. But there's been some really hard seasons with some of our kids, and I remember praying for them through, praying for them and with them if they allow me.
Sometimes they wouldn't allow me, but through some of the seasons and just like going before God. And it was like, it wasn't like a verbal thing, but the Holy Spirit really spoke to my heart that answered prayer isn't a quick fix. And I think we often want quick fixes, whether it's something they're dealing with in their preteens or in their teens afterwards. We want the quick fix.
We want things fixed now. But when we're diligent and praying for them and loving them and reaching out to them and continue to read the Bible, even if they're rolling their eyes at us, those answered prayers, we can see them down the road. And I'm so thankful in some of my kids' lives I've been able to see that. And God, you know, we just have to be faithful. Like, we can't guarantee anything ever, but we just have to be faithful in doing what God has called us to do.
Yeah, I totally agree with that. I actually had a friend of mine who wrote on Facebook several years ago. He was just sharing something that he had learned in his own devotions. But he noted how where the Bible says that Paul planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. Just recognizing that we may be in a season of planting or watering, but we can trust that God is going to do what God is going to do. At the end of the day, we have got to just learn to trust God. Parenting is a very, very, very long term job. And you don't often see that you're being successful in it because at any given moment, you know, everything could turn upside down and they can just make really foolish decisions.
And you can too. But trusting God and allowing God to use that faith building in your own life will grow you a lot. Like Trisha said, we are just called to be faithful, to do what God has called us to do every step of the way, and then to trust that the Lord will give the increase. You know, I sometimes encounter couples in my office whose adult children or sometimes older teenagers are making very poor decisions. And they say to me, what did we do wrong that our child would do this or a child would do that? And I say, well, you know, if you realize you made mistakes, then fine, let's apologize to them. But don't assume that you're responsible for your older child's mistakes or things that they do. I said, listen, God's first two children went wrong and they had a perfect father, Adam and Eve. And they made a very, very poor decision that's affected all of us.
So I think there's always two sides for all of us. None of us are perfect. And yes, we should apologize to our preteens, teens or older adults if we realize that we have done something wrong. Because they need to learn how to apologize too, because they're not going to be perfect either. So we're really teaching them something that's important. But don't put yourself down and condemn yourself, you know, because of what the decisions that your children make.
And I think also letting them suffer the consequences, you know, when they do make a mistake rather than trying to remove the consequences. Well, listen, I want to thank both of you, Tricia and Leslie, for being with us today and for writing this book, because I think it's going to be very helpful to parents of preteens in particular. Thanks for what you've done. And I pray that God will use not only the program, but He'll use this book in the minds and hearts of many parents. Thank you.
Thank you so much, Gary. A featured resource again at buildingrelationships.us is Faith That Sticks, Five Real-Life Ways to Disciple Your Preteen. It's by Tricia Goyer and Leslie Nunnery who joined us today. Again, just go to buildingrelationships.us to find out more. And if you have a prodigal child in your life, don't miss the conversation next week. Hear encouragement about a parent's battle plan in one week. A big thank you to our production team, Janice Backing and Steve Wick. Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman is a production of Moody Radio in association with Moody Publishers, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute. Thanks for listening. And as always, thanks for watching.
