Dear Gary | April

I have found that it is very taboo.

I am really struggling with knowing my role as a child. I've had a hard time figuring out her love language. How do you get out of a narcissistic relationship that has a very thick web? Welcome to Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman, author of the New York Times bestseller, "The 5 Love Languages" . It's time for our Dear Gary broadcast for the month of April featuring your calls and questions for this trusted author and speaker. There are love language questions ahead. One I've never heard before.

One caller is at the end of a rope both with her marriage and the church. So there's an awful lot of real issues we're going to deal with straight ahead on Moody Radio. Our featured resource at buildingrelationships.us is the book, You Get Me, Simple Romantic Ways to Speak "The 5 Love Languages" . You can find out more at that site, buildingrelationships.us. And Gary, when I see that title, You Get Me, there's kind of this smile, there's kind of a twinkle in the eye.

And it reminds me of the times when you felt seen by somebody else. Is that part of the impetus behind this resource? Yeah, I think it is. This book was actually put together by a friend of my son's who lives in England, and she's an artist. And so in addition to giving just lots and lots of ideas, practical ideas on speaking the love languages, the various love languages, she has original art in the book. So I think it's a small little book, but it's just practical ideas with art. So I think a lot of our writers will identify with that.

Yeah, You Get Me, Simple Romantic Ways to Speak "The 5 Love Languages" . You can find out more at buildingrelationships.us. Okay, Gary, as we start, I want to read a question for you. And remember, if you want to ask a question to Dr. Chapman on the program, not today, but for a future Dear Gary, write the number down, 1-866-424-GARY.

Here's the question that came in. I've recently read through your books, Dr. Chapman, one more try, and Loving Your Spouse When You Feel Like Walking Away. And I want to ask a more specific question regarding estranged marriages due to major depression.

In my current situation, I've done what I can to change my perspective and create healthy patterns in my behaviors. But due to depression, my spouse has a very different perspective on our marriage and the work that it would need to take to create a happy marriage. I would love to hear more in regards to how to engage in repair efforts when one party is willing and the other party has opposing views to suggested solutions. For example, marriage counseling, individual counseling, seeing a doctor for medical help, and so on. I'm finding it incredibly difficult to know how to move forward after so many years of attempts to repair and facing such a negative environment due to my spouse's depression.

What do you say? Well, first of all, you have to identify with this writer because when you try and try and try, and the two books he mentioned are practical books that I've written for individuals who are in marriages where their spouse often is not willing to go for counseling, not willing to do other things, and certain things that you can do that have at least the potential for changing the environment. You know, we can't change the other person. I mean, we've said that for years. You can't make another person do anything, really. But I do think when we take a positive approach, for example, we speak their love language over an extended period of time and we ask them, what can I do that would make me a better husband or a better wife, or what can I do to help you, or how can I make your life easier?

You know, we take that approach to them. It does many, many times strike at the heart of the other person and cause them to begin to reciprocate and begin to reach out and want to deal with their own problem, in this case, depression. Again, it depends on the nature of the depression and how long it's gone on and what the source of the depression is. But, you know, if it's been persistent for many years, there is a place for pulling together family members that she trusts, in addition to the husband, and sitting down with her and just having a real conversation about, you know, we love you and we know that you've suffered from this for a long time, and we really, really want you to get help and really try to help her come to agree to see a physician or to see a counselor or someone who can assess, you know, what's going on with her depression, what type of depression it is, and what might be the possible treatment patterns for that. So, I would suggest that to this husband, if he's not tried that, get some of her extended family, those that she would trust, who would join with him, in sitting down and just having a really hard conversation with her. And I would also reach out, in the meantime, to find a doctor or a counselor that you would feel good about, so that when she does agree, and often she will, if there's a little pressure put there by extended family, growing out of love, she would respond to that. So, there is a time for, you might call that tough love, in which you're kind of putting a little pressure on her to make a step that will have some positive impact on her depression.

So, that's just the thought that comes to my mind when you've tried the kind of things I've suggested in the two books you mentioned, I think this might be another step. The other thing that, and you've talked about this before, when you see someone, when you love someone who is depressed and has this kind of serial depression, if you see that as somebody who needs to snap out of it or you need to fix or they need to get a fix for their life, it's one thing. If you see them with, you know, if they had a broken leg and they were limping, you wouldn't think anything of it.

It's like, well, yeah, of course they're limping. But sometimes we put depression or things that are going on in the mind in some other category, and we don't see that as, you know, the person who is limping. So, rather than gauging the marriage by whether my spouse is depressed or not, and the person who wrote this isn't saying that, but I'm just kind of reading into it, basing my worth as a spouse on whether my spouse is depressed or not today, that doesn't help either one of you, right?

No, that's right, Chris. I think we have to recognize that, again, as I said earlier, we cannot make a person change, and we cannot change them. But the fact that he has read these two books and he has been trying to apply some of those things to his wife and relate their relationship and still not having progress, led me to say, you know, what I just suggested. Well, if you have a question for Dr. Chapman, you want to follow up on that issue of depression, maybe something that's helped in your marriage, 866-424-GARY. Leave your message, and we'll get to it on a future Dear Gary broadcast, 1-866-424-GARY. Here is a love language question I've never heard before, and I can't wait to hear what Gary's going to say. Good morning, Dr. Chapman. This is Richard from Cincinnati, Ohio.

I listen to you on WFCJ 93.7 FM. I've read the book, and my first love language is giving gifts, and I like to receive words of affirmation. But I have a question. Can the love languages also be used to identify character defects such as time, character defect, insecurity, giving gifts, you know, narcissism, and other issues like that? Because firstly, I love to give gifts, and I have a tendency to overdo them. So I'm not meagodiscal, I'm arrogant, I'm narcissistic, and a few other things. But how can the love languages be used to identify character defects? Thank you.

Well, Chris, I join you. I have never heard that question before, and I'm not sure I have a good answer to that question, to be honest with you. I hear what he's saying. Some of these languages, particularly the ones that you speak, like he's saying he gives gifts, you know, and overdoes it sometimes, growing out of some character aspect in him. But I don't know.

I've never even thought down those lines before. People have often asked me now, you know, how does your love language develop? And my answer has always been, I don't know, whether it's nature or nurture.

I know it's there very early. You can identify it in a child, at least by the time they're four years old, so it's there very early. But it's like a lot of other personality traits, you know, where do they come from, you know? And I don't think we've ever been able to quite pinpoint exactly where they come from.

This is something to explore that I've never explored before, to be honest with you. There may be some truth to this, but I just, I'm not in the point to say, yes, you know, here's the answer to that. Well, the whole idea behind the love language is to pay attention, pay attention to yourself, pay attention to the people around you that you love and see what you pick up. And maybe as you dig down into that and you pay closer and closer attention, you will see some of those negative things as well as the loving things, you know, the antithesis to those that will help you in your relationships.

Yeah, I think you're right. You know, he mentioned insecurity, for example, as perhaps the root of quality time. But insecurity could also be the root of words of affirmation.

You know, you feel insecure, but you want words of affirmation. So I don't know that there would be a really clear-cut, you know, direct response that would really explain why that particular person has that particular love language. Our featured resource is Gary's book, written with Jen Mickleboro, You Get Me, Simple Romantic Ways to Speak "The 5 Love Languages" . You can find out more at buildingrelationships.us.

Again, go to buildingrelationships.us. We had a program on making marriage easier a few weeks ago. Arlene Pelicane wrote an excellent book and it had that title, Making Marriage Easier, How to Love and Like Your Spouse for Life. So this is a testimonial that I think you'll appreciate, Gary. Hi, we've been married for 23 years, and I would say what has made marriage easier for me, which is actually more recently, is prayer, where I just ask God to help me, maybe not be upset in a situation, help me to show kindness, just help me in that moment, has really been helpful, because he can change my heart on a dime, which really helps me out a lot.

And the other one is just, let's say he's on the computer and I'm kind of watching him from the side, or he's driving, and just seeing him when we first met and anticipating us getting closer and the excitement in our relationship, and that I could feel the rush right then when I start thinking of that, and seeing him that way, and seeing how amazing and special he is, and what a gift he is. Well, that's a welcomed response. You know, I think often we have the program, Chris, and we give ideas and share things, and sometimes we don't get the feedback like that. That's very positive. But I do think prayer, for any of us, is certainly going to be a help, because the Bible says if you lack wisdom, God said, ask and I'll give you wisdom, you know. And all the traits of the Spirit, you know, kindness and love and joy and all those things, are not the results of trying hard. They're the results of allowing the Spirit of God to sit on the throne of our lives and guide us. So God's intention is to make all of us more and more like Christ. So the more we talk with God about the various aspects of our marriage, and how he wants to build these traits into me, when you look at those fruits of the Spirit in Galatians chapter 5, man, you have those nine traits, it's hard for anybody to resist someone that has those nine traits. So I think prayer and asking God to control us by his Spirit and make us more and more like Christ with the attitudes and behavior of Christ, the more likely that is to happen, because God wants that more than we do.

Yes. Well, and you always talk about love stimulates love. You know, the imagination that she used, she mentioned looking at him as he's driving down the road, going together, and remembering what it was like when she was anticipating, seeing him and then getting to spend more time together.

That's using your imagination rather than getting stuck in the, he always takes the left-hand turn up here and he does, or he drives too fast or too slow or whatever. I mean, we can have those feelings, but when you start to use your imagination and recall this, then that stimulates that inner feeling that you had a long time ago, doesn't it? Absolutely, Chris. I think, and listen, we choose our attitude and we choose what we're going to focus on. And when we bring back the positive memories of things in the past that they've done or said or whatever, it gives us really that same kind of sense of joy and satisfaction that we had way back when we first experienced that.

Yes. So this is a good place for me to say, if you have one of those stories, if there's something that has made your marriage easier and you want to talk about that, and if you have a problem in your marriage or in your relationships, please call us, 866-424-GARY. But I would like to hear in the coming months some really positive stories about here's where we were and here's where we are now and here's how we got from there to here. 866-424-4279 is the number. That's our listener line. Just leave your question or your comment or your story. We'd love to hear from you. 1-866-424-4279. Now, here's a daughter who is concerned about her mom.

Hi, Gary. I am the eldest of four children between my parents. I am 32 and the youngest is 25. My parents have been married about 35 years this year. Over the last couple of years, I have begun to notice a lot of challenges that my mom has that I'm coming to understand as being rooted in some pretty awful childhood trauma. And things that I just dismissed as a kid of her being a little odd and different, I'm now noticing may have just been her struggling to accept and love herself over the years. And recently, I learned that she kind of gave my dad an ultimatum that if he didn't change within a year, that she wants a divorce. And my parents are Christian.

They laid that foundation for us. But I am really struggling with knowing my role as a child. I also work in the mental health field. And I'm the only one in my family who is a therapist and sees things from that angle. I think my siblings and I have perhaps taken on a large emotional role for our mom. And I'm realizing that she has not ever really done the work to heal herself. And I'm fearful that this decision that she's making from being so unhappy in her marriage, even if things were improved, she might not be able to receive it or to even be happy, whether they go separate ways or they're together. My siblings and I are really trying to discern, is it our place to talk to our parents about this? Is it our place to suggest our mom get counseling? How do we love her, but also navigate creating distance and boundaries? Because unfortunately, there's going to be a lot of financial repercussions and housing stuff that is really disruptive if they move forward with this. So any guidance on how to not fall into a codependent role, loving and honoring our parents well, is greatly welcomed.

Thank you. Well, I can identify with this caller because I think there are many adult children who have concerns about their parents. Well, the fact that the caller is a therapist indicates that she realizes that if a person is suffering from trauma, past trauma that's never been dealt with, they will make poor decisions. And when her mother brings up the idea that she's thinking about divorce, yes, I do think that adult children have the privilege and the opportunity to move in and seek to communicate that to their mother, and especially her, being a therapist, because she knows that there is help if people will deal with past trauma. So I would say yes, not trying to control her, but trying to help her understand, you know, mom, there are people that can help you with what you're going through. And I really realize, and just talk to her like you would talk to one of your counselors. And we don't know whether her mother will respond, and she can't make her mother do that. But I do think it would be worthwhile for her to reach out and have a really serious talk with her mother about this whole issue.

Part of the struggle is our caller knows so much about what is going on, but, you know, the light bulb has come on, it's like now looking back, the pieces are fitting together. She is kind of figuring this out about her mom. And I wonder if her dad is also, he has been in the marriage for so many years that, you know, he may not see everything that she is seeing, and a conversation with her, the therapist with her dad might help as well, don't you think?

Yeah, I think so. And really, even some of the other family members could get involved for that matter. And she's right, and one of the things she said that even if her mother goes through divorce, that's not going to help her problem. It's going to compound her problem. You know, she's suffering from past trauma. Simply getting away from her husband is not going to give her a wonderful life. So, yeah, I think definitely family members need to have conversations and just see what they can do to try to help her understand that there's help.

Well, I love the care and concern of the daughter for the mom. And maybe you have a similar question or something that's going on in your family system you want to talk with Dr. Chapman about. 866-424-GARY is our number. We had a guest recently who talked about the power of the love languages in the context of the local church, and that conversation sparked this caller.

Hi, Gary. I am a first-time caller, and I was listening to the pastor ask about a love language for the church family, and I kind of agree with him. The church is an interesting family with interesting problems.

We are a family with adults behaving like children with different interactions. I think it would be very helpful. So that is my input as a member of a church, a small church. So I thank you very much. That's my input.

Well, I appreciate that input. You know, we wrote a book called The Five Languages of Appreciation in the Workplace in which we actually took the love languages to work in work relationships, because whether it's work relationships or church relationships, everybody has the need to feel loved by the significant people in their lives. And in a church, there are people that are very significant in our lives. That's what the church is all about.

Another factor is in that book on appreciation in the workplace. We deal with volunteers and how this applies with volunteers. We discovered that 50% of the adults in this country volunteer somewhere every year.

And many of those we know are in the church. In fact, the church would not operate if there were not several volunteers in any church. But why they volunteer and why they stay in that volunteer position is very different. They volunteer because they want to make a difference in the world. As Christians, we want to have an impact for people, for God. The reason they stay in that particular position is because they feel appreciated.

If they don't feel appreciated, then they go volunteer somewhere else. So that has tremendous implications for the church. So yeah, I think, I don't know that I'd want to write a book on that five love languages at church, but I do think it applies in church relationships, and I appreciate this call. And a lot of people are struggling with their church relationship or what the church has, what they thought the church was going to be like and what it has become.

Church hurt is, and we've talked about that here on the program with several guests. What do you say to the person who's listening today and who says every time I've tried, whether it's a small group or a church setting, I feel like I'm in the outside looking in? Is there, as a pastor, former pastor, now you've retired, is there something that you could say to that person?

I would say don't give up. Listen, there are churches, yes, that are very, very difficult. All churches have people who are difficult. Maybe all is too much, but most churches have people who are difficult for whatever reason. But we need to have in the church more teaching on how to solve conflicts without arguing. How do we work through our differences and still have unity? Because the Bible talks a great deal about unity in the church, and many churches don't have that kind of unity. And I think it's because we are individuals and we have different ideas, and some of us have never learned how to, first of all, respect other people's ideas. You don't have to agree with them, but you can respect them as a human, that they have a different idea than you do on this particular issue, and allowing and working together as a team even though we have differences.

That's the key. The churches that thrive are those that are willing to accept differences of opinion so long as they don't disagree with the Scriptures, of course. And even then, if they disagree with the Scriptures, that doesn't mean we're not going to love them. You know, Jesus loved us while we were unlovely.

Most churches could use a little help along those lines. And "The 5 Love Languages" and understanding that could be, again, a very positive help in terms of relationships within the church. This is the podcast Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman. He's the author of the New York Times bestseller, "The 5 Love Languages" . If you go to fivelovelanguages.com, you can find out more about that concept. You can also take a free assessment of your love language and see our featured resource today, the book You Get Me, Simple Romantic Ways to Speak "The 5 Love Languages" .

Just go to fivelovelanguages.com. Gary, we hear a lot of calls from people who are in desperate situations. We're hearing those calls today. But our next caller is kind of giving a report about a situation in her family that I think might help somebody who's going through something similar.

Here we go. I just wanted to give an update or the rest of the story of what I shared yesterday about my granddaughter. We told her, actually, that it wasn't working for us and it definitely wasn't working for her and that we would give her 60-day notice that she would need to find another place to live. And we told her we'd be praying for her and that we loved her dearly. I just want to say that from the day she moved out until today, which was over two years ago, she has been so respectful. We have had a good relationship, totally turned around. She started adulting in such a good way. So I just wanted to let people know that it really is important to let God transform.

And that's where her call cut off right there. But I'm going to finish this at let God transform that relationship in His time, in His way, in love. So that's her report. What do you say, Gary?

Well, I think that's a positive report, and I certainly would affirm that. You know, I re-released a book that I'd written a number of years ago. Just recently, the new title is Your New Life with Your Adult Child. In this case, Your Adult Grandchild. But there is a place.

Yes, I deal with that whole issue of children moving back in with their parents, or sometimes, as in this case, moving back in with grandparents. And things are not going in a positive way because they're not obeying the guidelines and the rules that we set down. And we should always have guidelines. So there is a place for kind of hard love. You know, we love you, honey. It's just not working for us, and it's not working for you. So we're going to ask you to move out.

We're going to give you time to find a place. But we love you very much, and we certainly want to have a relationship with you. And in this case, obviously, it's been very, very positive. So I think if we recognize that we certainly love our adult children, and we want to see them prosper in life, in today's world, it's not unusual that they're going to come back home for a while, or maybe move in with a grandparent for a while. And let's face it, there are a number of grandparents who are raising their grandchildren because the parents of that grandchild are either in jail, or they're on drugs, or are deceased.

So there are a number of grandparents who are now trying to care for adult children, and often they run into similar situations. Well, I wanted you to hear that call. And then right after this grandmother talking about her granddaughter, I wanted you to hear this next caller, who I believe left two messages. And in the first one, she said she was trying not to cry as she asked the question. So she called back again. This is her deep concern.

Hi, Gary. I am trying to reach out about my daughter, and I've had a hard time figuring out her love language, and I've been thinking about this for 14 years now. And she is dealing with, I think, a lot of anger and unresolved pain, and I just don't know how to connect with her and how to have an impact in her life.

And that's why I was calling. Well, I think any mother who has for 14 years been trying to figure out her daughter's love language would be frustrated if she hasn't determined that, and obviously seeing the daughter filled with a lot of anger and other negative responses. I would say if she's still living in the home, I would encourage you to say to the daughter, in your own words, of course, You know, honey, I love you very much, and I think you love me, even though sometimes, obviously, you get very angry with me. But I would like for both of us to try to learn how to talk to each other and how to treat each other in a more loving and kind way.

Would you be willing to go with me to a Christian counselor who can help both of us try to understand each other? Because I know that obviously you're upset a lot of the time, and I know that I get hurt, and sometimes I raise my voice to you, but I really love you very, very much. That would be one approach.

There's another approach, and that would be to tell her, You know, honey, I love you very much, but I read a book about love languages, and what makes one person feel loved doesn't make another person feel loved. And I wonder if you would take this quiz. It's a free quiz online, and it's for single adults, and it would help me understand you better, to know how to express my love to you, because I know sometimes you don't feel loved by me.

So it only takes you 15 minutes or so. Would you be willing to do that? That might be an easy starting place. Or give her the book, "The 5 Love Languages" , Singles Edition. Let her read that book herself, and to say, This book has helped a lot of singles understand themselves and understand their parents. So maybe if she read it, chances are then she would definitely want to take the quiz.

That would be my approach. First of all, it's probably the book or the quiz, and then a little later, perhaps, if things do not begin to get better, suggest that both of you go for counseling. The thing that I hear in her voice and in her first call is this angst and struggle, and I wonder if there's something in the mom who is looking at her daughter and her anger and maybe some trauma that her daughter's been through, and she feels responsible for it. And it's my daughter, you know, my daughter's struggling because of maybe decisions I've made, or I'm at fault here, and that may not be the truth at all.

What do you say about that? Well, that's certainly a possibility, Chris, and the only way I know you would find that out is to have an honest talk with her, and certainly a counselor would help in that situation because the counselor would help the mother understand the daughter and help the daughter understand the mother. Sometimes a third party is really necessary, especially if it's a very strained relationship. Yeah, and if the daughter says, no, I don't want anything to do with the counselor, I think you'd say to mom, well, you go then, right?

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Let a counselor help you think through the situation as to what might be a positive step you could take. Maybe you've been through this situation with your own daughter or son or grandson, granddaughter, and you want to tell us your story about how this all worked out and what you did. Your story might help somebody else. Here's the number, 866-424-GARY. That's our listener line.

Call, leave your message, 1-866-424-4279. You're listening to Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman. Our next caller has a brief question that I'm sure has a lot of struggle behind it. Here's our next caller. Hi, Gary. Gary was wondering if you could answer a very question, how do you get out of a narcissistic relationship that has a very thick web?

Thanks. Well, Chris, you know, it all depends on what the relationship is. If it's a work relationship, you know, there's always other jobs. If it's a marriage, then that's much more difficult because I don't think we ought to leave somebody in a marriage just because they're narcissistic. I do think, however, we have to have honest truth talk with each other in a healthy marriage. And so I think to say to that person, if it's a marriage, to say to them, I love you very much, but I think you know that many, many times I do not feel loved by you. And I feel like often you try to control me and that you are always right and I'm always wrong. And I just wish we could find someone to help us, help you understand me and me understand you. And just challenge them to go for counseling. They may or may not be willing to, but the very fact that you suggested that and told them that you wanted to learn how to understand them better and them to understand you better is at least the first step. Because even if they reject it originally, they might be open on down the road a ways.

So I think we have to take a step. We cannot allow someone with that type of personality to control us and make our lives miserable. But it has to be done in love if it's just out of anger toward them because of the way they've treated you. And so you're criticizing them, you're yelling at them, you're screaming at them and all that sort of thing. You're making the situation worse because anger and anger, it just explodes. So I would suggest you have to learn to get control of your own anger if you're going to help anyone with a narcissistic personality. And for those who don't know, and you've answered this question before, but narcissism, what does it look like, say, in a marriage? Well, it's a very controlling person. They have all the ideas, they make all the plans, they tell you what you're going to do, just overbearing in every situation and put down your ideas typically. They are always right and you're always wrong. And it's hard to live with that kind of personality.

Yeah. But you're saying there is still hope for a person who's married to a narcissist. Yes, but I think they have to take action. They can't simply just sit there and let it happen. They have to share in a kind way. You see, typically what we do in a situation like that is we're so hurt that we lash out in anger at them and we say hateful words and yell and scream at them. And that just pushes them away and makes the barrier worse between the two of us. But in a kind way to express to them your concern and the fact that you cannot go on like this. Something has to happen here.

And when they realize how serious it is, often they themselves will sometimes be open to go for counseling. Gary, this will be our final question of the hour. And it's a little longer, but there is so much to the struggle that our caller is describing. I wanted you to hear as much as we could hear today. Here's what she had to say.

Hi, Gary. I would love an answer to this, but I have found that it is very taboo. Long story short, I had a compulsive, flying type of sex addiction issue that apparently is rampant in the church, but covered up a lot. I am still in that relationship, but I have had people, including my own self, know that I'm not my normal self. We have tried for three to four years between counseling, you name it, we did it, the deliverance at church, and every time there was all this extreme counseling and praying and hitting with Bibles and rebuking and just, I'm off that train now. Unfortunately, it has turned me off of Christianity.

I had never been with someone who prayed and made it public to be in the Bible and always tell me God would fix everything. So I don't know what you do with that. Do I just be grateful that I'm not a raging lunatic and I'm not a suicidal mess anymore? I'm just very blah. I'm not exactly full of joy. So when there could be no more going wrong, he went to in-treatment, and then there was an incident there that almost occurred that told me we have a real problem.

We even did ketamine. I mean, I feel like I've had some friends turn against because they feel that this has just gone so far. I don't know if I'm being lazy, not getting out. I don't know if I'm doing the godly thing by just hanging on because I'm kind of stuck in the marriage. I want to know why the church doesn't deal with this more, why betrayal and sex addiction, the amount of shame and support that I didn't get from the church is what has turned me away. I don't even go to church now. And I understand this might be too much to deal with. Hopefully you can decipher what I'm trying to ask.

I kind of don't know, is this it for me for the rest of my life at 55? Or do I just do the best I can? I still just to this day can't have anyone, or at least a Christian, fully answer what in the world to do, why we immersed ourself even more, it got worse. I don't know if anyone else is in a situation and stuck or suffering or it's a very touchy subject to ever discuss with anyone, let alone any other kind of believers or Christians. Okay.

So thanks so much. Well, I think when a person has struggled with a spouse who has a compulsive, what she called a compulsive sex issue, I'm guessing pornography, and probably also adultery involved with someone else. And she turned to the church for help. And they prayed with her and they told her God would deliver and all this sort of thing. And she kind of got turned off to the church. And I can identify with that.

I think that number of people have had that kind of experience. But let me say this first of all. It's one thing to be upset or discouraged by the way a church responds to these kind of issues. It's another thing to turn away from God. Here's what I mean by that. Churches are composed of people.

People are humans. Even Christians are humans. And sometimes the way certain churches respond in different things and what they do and trying to help is not helpful.

And so sometimes a person just feels put off by the whole thing. But I would say don't give up on God just because the experience in one church has been a poor experience. I would say, first of all, God wants to help you walk through this situation. And secondly, there are Christians who are different from those that you've experienced.

Who are more open to logical thought and seeking help other than just saying God's going to deliver, you know, God's going to deliver that sort of thing. So, certainly, God wants people to have a positive life. And it's why He's laid down principles for us. When God says don't do something, it's because He loves us. And He wants us to have the best possible life.

And when someone violates those principles in terms of sexuality or any other area of life, they're not going to have the life that God wants them to have. When you're living with someone like that, obviously, it's very, very painful for you. If a person to whom you are married persists in pornography and adultery, that is physical involvement with someone else, and you've been to counseling, but there's been no change in behavior, there is a place for tough love. And tough love says, I love you too much to sit here and do nothing while you violate the clear teachings of the Bible. And you bring great pain to me. So if this is your lifestyle, and this is what you intend to do, I want you to know, I am not simply going to be here and do nothing. I know we've tried counseling, but you decided to continue in this lifestyle. I love you too much to continue. I am willing to go again for counseling with you. I'm willing to do anything I can to help you. But I am not simply going to sit here and do nothing. You see, I love you too much to do nothing. So I'm going to move out. I'm not going to divorce you, but I'm going to move out. And if you decide that you want to be delivered from this, you can be delivered.

You have to make the hard decision. God will help you if you run to God. He will help you in this area, but you have to agree to cooperate with God. And I'm not going to simply accept it as normal behavior, whatever words you use, but there is a place for that kind of tough love. And many times a person who has not changed will, at that point, be open to real change. But if not, then again, we can't make our spouse stop anything. So there is a juncture at which we just have to realize we're not helping them by, as it were, affirming what they're doing by simply sitting there and doing nothing. So it's hard.

It's hard. The difference between tough love and tender love is very hard, but tender love should always go before tough love. So if you love Him in His right love language, and you seek to minister to Him and serve Him in other ways as a faithful wife, and He still persists in this behavior, then is the time for tough love. Often what we do is criticize the person, put them down, express anger and frustration with them, and then decide that we're going to take a step to move out. And they say to themselves, good riddance.

I'm tired of hearing all your yelling and screaming at me anyway. But if we have given them soft love, tender love, over a period of time, they're far more likely, when you do tough love, to respond in a positive way. You know what strikes me, Gary, is when she talked about, it's almost like she's living in black and white when the world is color. She's just kind of feeling blah and stunted. And that's the effects of living with somebody who's making these choices.

But she also said, you know, here she is in her 50s, I've invested my life in this relationship. This shouldn't be this way. It's not supposed to be this way.

And is this it? Is this all I can hope for moving forward? And I want to say, you know, I don't know her and you don't either, but I want to say no, this is not it. Because of the love of God and the care of God for you, your life does not have to be held back by His choices.

Does that make sense? Yeah, I think, you know, God has a plan for her life. If she's a believer in Christ already, God has a plan for her life. If she's never accepted Christ, God loves her. He wants her to become His child. And then He wants to use her in a positive way. So she has a life to live. And running away from God is not the answer. Running to God is the answer.

Because if she runs to God and she's totally committed to God and walking with Him and then finding a church where people are loving and kind and tender and caring, then she will have a life and God will use her life, no question about that, whether her husband turns around or whether he doesn't turn around. Well, before we conclude, I want you to call Gary, leave a message, maybe in response to the caller we just heard. 1-866-424-GARY. If you have a comment or maybe you have a question about your own relationships, 866-424-4279.

We'd love to hear from you. You can also find simple ways to strengthen your relationships online at buildingrelationships.us. See our featured resource by Dr. Chapman and Jen Mickleboro.

You get me simple romantic ways to speak five love languages. Just go to buildingrelationships.us. And next week, if you're a mom who feels overwhelmed with anger, don't miss the conversation in one week. We hope you'll join us then. A big thank you to our production team, Steve Wick and Janice Backing. Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman is a production of Moody Radio in association with Moody Publishers, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute. Thanks for listening.