A Simple Guide for a Better Marriage | Gary Chapman and John Hinkley

Fit widget A into slot Q and tighten screw. Okay. Ever wish marriage came with a set of easy instructions? But not too tight or the wood might crack.

Oh boy. God uses everything in our life to work in us and then ultimately work through us to help others. Sometimes there's a cost to unconditional love. It seeks what's best for our spouse, even when they're not interested in our needs, in our situation. Welcome to Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman, author of The New York Times bestseller "The 5 Love Languages" . Today we present a simple guide to making marriage better from the co-authors of a new book that just might be the key to a relational reset. And if you go to buildingrelationships.org, you will see the book that we're talking about today, a simple guide for a better marriage. Quick, practical insights every couple needs to thrive. Again, go to buildingrelationships.us.

Gary, I think this is going to be a fun program because not only do we get to hear some practical help for marriage, we get to meet a man who has worked behind the scenes of your ministry for a lot of years. Well, you're right, Chris. John Hinckley and I have worked together. Oh, John might remember the exact year, but it's been a long time.

I know that. And he's helped in many, many ways, works for Moody Publishers, and I was really glad that he joined with me in writing this particular book. So I'm excited about our conversation today. Well, let me introduce our guest, John Hinckley. He and his wife, Tris, have been married for more than 40 years, and they have three adult children.

For the last 35 years, he's worked for Moody Publishers in Chicago, where he currently serves as an acquisitions editor. John and Tris live in northwest Indiana and serve together as directors of their church's counseling ministry. And our featured resource is the book by John and Dr. Chapman, A Simple Guide for a Better Marriage. Quick, practical insights every couple needs to thrive.

Find out more about it at buildingrelationships.us. Well, John, welcome to Building Relationships. Thank you. It's such a privilege and a blessing to be on this program with you, Gary.

Appreciate it. Yeah, we haven't done this before. We've done a lot of conferences together, but we haven't done the radio program before, so it's great to have you. Now, you and your wife, Tris, have been married for more than 40 years. So take us back to the early days and what drew the two of you together in the first place. Yeah, well, we met in college 43 years ago.

We met through a mutual friend. And, you know, in our book, Gary, we talk about opposites attracting. And from a personality standpoint, Tris and I were and are opposites.

Tris is an off the scale extrovert, as you know, and I'm an introvert. She tends to be a night person. I'm a morning person. She can be a tad late to meetings and things. I'm one who likes to be on time. She's she's much more spontaneous than me.

I tend to be that kind of that planner. And I could go on and on about our differences. But we also had a lot of things in common. And I would say when we met, the most important thing was that we both followed Christ and we love the Lord. He was a high priority in our lives as individuals. We got married the year I graduated and started a family.

And then within five years, I began working at Moody Bible Institute for Moody Publishers. And as you mentioned, we have three adult children, Megan, Andrew and Graham. All three live close by, which is nice for us.

One's very close. Graham is still living in our home. And Andrew married the love of his life, Kayla, last fall. That was a wonderful time for all of us as a family. And I had the tremendous privilege of officiating their wedding is a great event. So, yeah, we love our family, as you can tell. Yeah, that's great. That's great.

You know, as you were talking about all the differences between you and Tris, I was just cataloging with you because so many of those are true of me and Carolyn as well. The late thing, for example. My idea being on time is to be there 15 minutes before it starts.

Hers is get there five minutes after it starts. But many couples will identify with that, I think. Not that everybody has, you know, personality differences, but there are always some differences in every couple. John, I want to ask you, do you remember working on "The 5 Love Languages" early on? Were you part of that?

I was part of it, yeah. You know, it was Gary's third book. He had already written two books on marriage that were good selling books.

And this one came, "The 5 Love Languages" , in 1992. At the time, I was working in the marketing area for Moody Publishers, but I was strongly connected to the book. And one of the reasons why is because we launched this book as one of a very few in a new imprint that Moody Publishers was developing called Northfield Publishing. Northfield was named after the town in Massachusetts where the evangelist D.L.

Moody was born and raised. This imprint, Northfield, was created so we could put Moody books in the mainstream market into bookstores like Barnes & Noble and Books-A-Million and Borders and B. Dalton and Walden and many other mainstream stores that have since become extinct. So much of books these days are sold online, as you know. Northfield books were based on the truth of God's word, but they didn't include some of the words, the vernacular, that is so common in the church. In other words, we didn't use theological words that might become a stumbling block for readers who didn't regularly go to church, so the books were kind of considered pre-evangelistic. They were designed to open doors to readers who might become receptive to biblical truth. The books were considered pre-evangelistic, designed to open the door to readers so that they would become receptive to biblical truth and interested in exploring more in that realm. And that's exactly what has happened, isn't it, Gary?

It is. In fact, I've had people say to me, I didn't know you were a Christian until I got to the end of the book. And I said, oh, that was on purpose, because I wrote with non-Christians in mind. Because listen, they have the need to feel love, just like Christians have the need to feel love. And at the end of the book, of course, what I said essentially was, I'm giving you information on how to effectively express love to your spouse.

I can't give you motivation, but I can tell you where my motivation came from. And I give my personal experience, my relationship with God, you know, and that God loved me. I responded to God's love. And then the Scriptures say the love of God is poured in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. So Christians have outside help in terms of having a good marriage.

But I also want to reach non-Christians with the message. And so, you know, it's been very, very encouraging to see the way God has used that particular book through the years. Well, I'm looking forward to this conversation about a simple guide for a better marriage. Quick practical insights every couple needs to thrive. And here's the thing, bringing a hundred years of marriage to the page, you and John teamed up. You have a hundred years of experience. It doesn't mean I've been married a hundred years, but together we've been married. If you count my 63 years and her 63 years, how many is that? I'm not good at math.

126. Okay. Carol and I had real struggles in the early days of our marriage.

I've shared those sometimes on the program. And looking back on it, I just feel like God led us through all those painful years, early years, because He was preparing us for what He wanted us to be doing, you know, later on. I wouldn't have had empathy for people if I never had any struggles in my own marriage. You know, I'd say, what would be wrong with you folks? Just snap out of it and have a good marriage, you know. But I remember when I had those feelings of, I don't know, I may have married the wrong person. I mean, it's just not working.

We're too different, you know. All we're doing is arguing with each other. And man, I mean, those are painful times. But God has used all of that to give me great empathy for people who are struggling in their own marriage and a deep desire to impact those people in a positive way and to bring hope to their situation. Sometimes I've said in my office to people that say, we just don't see any hope.

We just don't know how this could ever work. And I say, well, I can understand that. But I'd like to ask you a question. Would you be willing to go on my hope for a while? Because I have hope for you. I've been where you are and I've helped a lot of other people who've been where you are. And I have great hope for you. So, you know, God uses all of our, everything in our lives. I think He uses it to work in us and then ultimately work through us to help others. Well said.

I like the way you put that, Chris. More than 100 years. I hadn't really thought about that from a marketing standpoint, but between Gary and me and our marriage length of time, it is over 100 years of experience and wisdom packed inside this book. Mostly, of course, it's Gary's. More than 60-40, obviously.

It's more like 90-10. Well, that's your perspective, John. I've said this before. I don't think I would have written this book if you hadn't helped me with it.

So I'm very grateful for that. Let me ask you this, John. What are some of the ministries that you and Trias, your wife, are invested in that support healthy marriages? Well, I would start with my ministry with Moody and the privilege I have of working with you, Gary.

And in the past, some other authors who have written with the purpose of benefiting or building up relationships, whether it be marriage or family or parenting, even workplace. So I've considered my job at Moody to be a ministry that really is putting very impactful books into the hands of people who, if they read them, will strengthen them, benefit them in their relationship first and foremost with God, that vertical relationship, but then also with the people in their lives, in their homes, in their workplaces, their churches, whatnot. So Moody has been a great ministry to be involved in. The other ministry is our church, our local church. Trias and I have been part of this church that we're at for just about as long as I've been at Moody. And we served in a variety of different ministries within the church. But for the last dozen years or so, we have served in our church's counseling ministry. Our church started that back in the early 2000s.

It's a lay counseling ministry, peer-to-peer, where we have volunteers from our congregation who serve, who get trained, who read books, go to school, learn things, and then put them to work with others within our church, but it goes way beyond our church to our community as well. And it was just five years ago now that our church asked Trias and me to come on staff and to serve as the directors of this counseling ministry, a part-time role here at this church. And so we have been immersed even more in counseling. From the beginning, Trias and I kind of focused on counseling couples.

That's what we did most of, and that hasn't changed. Our ministry has been enhanced by that fact that we're working with couples that, you know, there's been a lot of overlap between what I do here at the church and what I do at Moody. But anyway, at the moment, we serve with a team of about 20 lay counselors, and it's been such a privilege to have men and women who love the Lord and are really willing to sacrifice time and energy to come alongside and walk well with people who are struggling at whatever place in life.

That's fantastic. John, I hope that our listeners who hear what you just said, and they're active in a church, that they will think in terms of, is this something our church could do? Because I believe there are a lot of lay people out there that would be open to helping other lay people, and they are studying books, they are going to conferences, they are learning things that would be helpful to others, and yet they feel like, well, I'm not a professional. You know, I'm not a certified counselor, so I don't think I could do that. Listen, people can help people. If you've learned some things, you can help people.

So I really appreciate what you and Trias have done through the years here in your own church. And I think this is going to be one of those resources you can hand people when they come in for counseling. It's A Simple Guide for a Better Marriage, Quick Practical Insights, Every Couple Needs to Thrive. John, every book has a story behind it. We talked about "The 5 Love Languages" before. What's the story behind A Simple Guide for a Better Marriage?

Yeah, first of all, I've got to give credit where credit's due. This is primarily Gary's book, and he's really, in a sense, been writing it over his life. It all started one evening when we were out in Grants Pass, Oregon, together for a conference. He and I went to dinner together at a restaurant that night, and he told me about a series of articles that he had written for a monthly magazine. It was a rather extensive collection when he sent them to me, nearly 100 articles on various aspects of marriage. Each article was like unpacking one facet of Gary's wisdom on marriage. I was inspired by the breadth of topics that he covered and the depth of insight, biblical knowledge, practical expertise that was coming through in these articles. My task was to select the best pieces out of that collection and distill them into a book that would address some of the most common and relevant challenges that couples face in today's world.

There was a lot. I have to say the temptation was to expand this work. It would have been easy to make it into like an exhaustive volume that really goes into depth on the materials.

But I also wanted to ensure that the final product was accessible, and so I distilled. Ultimately, we ended up with a highly manageable and readable book consisting of 31 chapters that really only take a few minutes to read, but they're packed with substantive and actionable insights for couples. I think the other thing, John, that I really appreciate is at the end of each of those chapters, you created questions or things that they could do to apply whatever the topic was in that chapter. So it's really, really practical, and I am super, super excited about this book, Chris. I think it's a readable book. You know, I've found that in today's world, people are not into reading long, long, long chapters in books, at least many people, a lot of men especially. So these are short chapters, but they are pointed chapters, really focusing in on aspects of a marriage that anyone can identify with. So I really think this book has great potential for helping people. I wish I could put it in the hands of every couple in the country, and that's how I feel about it. It's an easy read, but it's dealing with issues that couples will be able to, oh, yeah, that makes sense, let's try that, really practical things that will make a change in their marriage. Yes.

Could you give me an example of that, Gary? The, oh, yeah, I think we could implement this, because you're talking about better, making your marriage better, and that is everybody. All of our marriages can be better for those people who are married, right? Yeah.

Well, I think one would be the chapter on conflicts and how to resolve conflicts, because there are many, many people who have never learned how to resolve conflicts. Every difference they have, they argue about, you know, because he knows he's right and she knows she's right. And one of the things I say is, listen, every couple has conflicts because we're human. Humans don't think the same way, and they don't have the same history, and they don't have the same emotions. So coming to respect the other person as a human, you know, and say, okay, honey, I want to hear your side.

Tell me, let me try to understand where you're coming from. Learning how to listen to that other person, you know, look at the world through their eyes, because they're not crazy, you know, and the things they're saying are not dumb. They may sound dumb to you.

Listen. Because they're unique, and they're sharing their uniqueness with you when you understand a conflict situation. And if you listen long enough and ask questions about where they're coming from, and let me make sure I understand what you're saying, you can honestly say to the person, your spouse, and you say, you know, honey, when we first started this, I really did not see your position, but now I can see.

I can see how you would think that, and I can see how that makes sense. It still doesn't mean you necessarily agree with them, but now you can understand them enough that you can affirm them rather than trying to fight them, you know, win the argument. And then they listen to you with that same openness to trying to understand your perspective.

And then you can both say, honestly, you know, honey, how we see this, it makes sense, you know, it's just that we have a difference, but how can we solve the problem? And you spend your energy solving the problem rather than trying to win an argument. Because if you win the argument, they lost. No fun to live with a loser, so why would you create one, you know? I mean, that one thing could turn a lot of marriages around, because I'm telling you, their couples have been married for years, have never learned how to resolve conflicts. They just are insistent on trying to convince the other person that I'm right and you're wrong.

And you're never going to get a good marriage if that's your attitude. So that's an example of how practical the book is. John, tell me your perspective on conflict. Well, we deal with conflict in the book in a whole section of six, I think it's six chapters we talk about conflict and anger and other things. And one of the things that we say that is a bit ironic and may catch some readers off guard is that conflict is really actually good for marriage. It's good to have conflict as long as you keep your eye on the goal.

The goal isn't to eliminate differences of opinion or differences in personality. It's about learning to work together as a team and allowing your differences to complement each other to lead to a greater good. So conflict is good. There is a lot that can be learned and a lot that can be used to deepen marriage. The danger, though, of course, there's dangers. It's not hard at all for conflicts to escalate and become arguments, and then you're attacking each other and building up that wall, that barrier between you or whiting, fleeing from one another.

So you have to be careful. Arguments don't tend to end well, but conflicts when handled right do tend to end well, and a couple can actually grow closer together. I think that's going to be eye-opening for somebody driving down the road and they're looking at their spouse or they're thinking about their spouse, husband or wife, we fight all the time, why do we have so much conflict, that it can be actually a positive thing in your relationship. And that's one of the great things about this book, A Simple Guide for a Better Marriage, Quick Practical Insights Every Couple Needs to Thrive. You can find out more about it at the website, buildingrelationships.us.

Again, go to buildingrelationships.us. John, throughout the book, you and Gary talk about unconditional love, and that gets thrown around a lot these days. I want to know, from a practical perspective, what does that mean, unconditional love?

I think it's really demonstrating God's love in marriage. We don't have to earn His love, He gives it to us freely, and even when we're unlovable, He loves us, tells us in His Word, that He loves us and that He wants us to emulate His love. And 1 John 4, 11 and 12 says, Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.

No one has ever seen God. If we love one another, God abides in us and His love is perfected in us. So this is what it means, I think, primarily to love unconditionally. It's selflessly, it's not loving the other person expecting something in return, it's acting in our spouse's best interest. Even if their intention isn't for our best interest, even if they're selfish, loving them in this way, unconditionally, as God loves us, means loving a selfish spouse, and doing it in a selfless, other-oriented manner. So sometimes there's a cost to unconditional love, it seeks what's best for our spouse, even when it costs us, even when they're not interested in our needs and our situation. Yeah, I think another thing I would just throw in there is that sometimes we feel like if I don't feel love for them, then I don't love them.

But that's not necessarily true. You don't have to have love feelings or positive feelings for your spouse to love them. I mean, love is a choice. There's an emotional aspect to it. And I say this because the lady once asked me, Can you love your husband if you hate him?

And I had to give some thought to that. But I think you can. You can be hurt and really just feel like they're awful, but you can choose to love them with words and deeds. And if you know their love language, you can speak their love language with God's help.

Because as you said, John, God loved us while we were sinners. And we can love our spouse when they're sinners. And love's the most powerful thing you can do for a person. And with the help of God, you can actually be God's agent for loving that person, even when you have negative feelings for them.

And we can't change them, but we can influence them. And unconditional love is the most positive influence you can ever have on a spouse. And we can't guarantee that they'll all turn around and come back and love you, but I can tell you I've seen many, many, many times they do turn around because they know they don't deserve the way you're loving them. And when you do it over a period of time, they realize, oh man, they're sincere.

I mean, they really care about me. And it draws them because we love God, the Bible says, because he first loved us. So that principle works in a Christian marriage as well. Thanks for joining us for The Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman Podcast. He's the author of the New York Times bestseller, "The 5 Love Languages" . You can find out more about your love language by going to fivelovelanguages.com. You can also see our featured resource, the book by Dr. Chapman and our guest, John Hinckley. It's titled A Simple Guide for a Better Marriage.

Just go to fivelovelanguages.com. John, add to what Gary was saying about unconditional love. Yeah, it involves asking questions and his three questions are the right ones that any of us as spouses should be asking.

What can I do to help you? You know, reaching out, helping somebody, giving them service without expecting return is one way of loving unconditionally. The second question, how can I make your life easier?

Who doesn't want to have an easier life? And if we can do something to help our spouse in their lives that make things lighter and easier for them, then that's a great way of expressing unconditional love. And then how can I be a better husband or wife to you? Now you're saying, I want to be God's person for you in this marriage. As a husband, a loving leader, as a wife, a loving wife. I want to be an extension of their love to you in this marriage. So I love those three questions. And I think when you consider unconditional love within marriage, those are the three that you should start with. Hmm. I like that because, Gary, that gets the focus off of you and you're not making me happy, you're not making me fulfilled.

I've fallen out of love with you. And it emphasizes the choice, those questions emphasize the choice of moving toward your spouse, right? Yeah, and when you do that, over a period of time, and they see you're really serious, you're asking because you want to make their life easier, you know, and they're likely to start asking you those questions because it's never a one-way relationship. Our behavior affects the other person, either negatively or positively.

So that's why I think it's super, super important. You know, John, I think another area we discuss in the book is the whole area of communication. Of course, you know, we're talking now about loving, but communication, it seems so simple, talking and listening.

What's one thing that in any of these chapters that we have, because we have several chapters on the whole thing of communication, that you would want to share with our listeners today? I like the way you say communication is speaking and listening. And I think effective communication, one thing that we stress in the book, is that it really starts not by speaking but by learning to listen and listening to more than just the words.

You know, there's a whole set of nonverbal communication cues that happens when communication is taking place. And so you need to be observant and alert to other things, like what's behind the words. Try to grasp what is behind the words that are being spoken. We talk a lot about empathetic listening throughout the book, and that really is something that is essential to marriage health. What it means is it's putting yourself in your spouse's shoes and seeing the world from their perspective. This means that we listen deeply. We try to get at what our spouse is thinking, feeling, and believing. And it means that we listen reflectively.

You know, reflective listening is when you hear what they say, process it, and then repeat it back to them to make sure that you understand. That's one of the things that we say is imperative to good communication in marriage. But I'd also say that the thing that strikes me in one of the chapters is the five levels of communication.

We unpack that concept. There's five levels of communication. We have to, as spouses, work hard to get beyond the third level and press into the fourth and fifth levels, but that's really where growth happens. The first level is hallway talk.

I mean, it's just simply greetings to one another, things that you would say to anybody. The second level is reporter talk, and that's where you talk about the facts, like the who, what, when, where, why facts of a situation. Again, we talk to most people at that level. The third level is when you get into intellectual talk and sharing thoughts and ideas with one another. But it's at this level where you can actually begin to build or develop intellectual intimacy with your spouse. For men, those first three levels, they're pretty easy. However, when we move up to the fourth and fifth level, sometimes for some men, I would include myself in that.

It gets a little uncomfortable. The fourth level is emotional talk, and that's where we talk about our feelings, opening up to what we're feeling and our emotions, which can be a little bit scary sometimes, especially for men. It's not easy to identify emotions or feelings.

There is an app out there called How We Feel that's been useful for this purpose, and really it's something that you can use if you're stuck and don't know how to describe a feeling that you have, it can help with that. But the fifth and highest level of communication is called genuine truth talk, and that's when you're being honest and not condemning and you're being open, not demanding. At this level, a couple can cultivate spiritual intimacy.

It's where they are free to speak the truth in love, like Ephesians 4.15 says, which says, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head into Christ. So greater intimacy is developed through communication, and communication happens on five levels. And we're encouraging spouses to move up that ladder and to work at developing each level. It can be a sequential thing, and it's not that somebody is going to jump in and do all five at once, but they can learn to share their emotions, and as they do that, it opens the door for speaking the truth, really getting to the heart of things. And really, when we're talking about communication, understanding the heart is so important.

Yeah. You know, John, I encounter many couples who say, you know, we just never talk much except about logistics, you know, who's going to pick up the kids at school and what stressors you want to go to. And one of the things we deal with in the book is just learning how to ask questions, you know. Just simple daily things, for example. Tell me something that happened today that you really enjoyed. Oh, well, tell me something that happened today that was really hard for you.

Or if you could relive today, is there anything you'd do differently? Just questions that people don't even think about asking, and we list a lot of these in the book. And the other thing is just getting to know each other. You know, sometimes we've been married 20 and 30 years. We don't ever talk about our past. But what if you ask questions about, honey, what do you remember about elementary school? Or, you know, what were the positive points about your father or your mother?

Or what were the negative points? Just getting to know each other. Because if we ask questions about their history and things that they've got, they're looking back, and we're interested. The fact that we ask questions shows we're interested. It's amazing what things you can learn about each other. Marriage is about sharing life with each other. And questioning is a big part of that. So that whole communication thing, I think we have four or five chapters on that whole area. I love it.

It's going to be helpful. And I'm listening to this as a man who has, my whole life, tried to not feel anything. You know, it's like, I don't want to ask me how I feel about something.

I don't want to feel anything. It's threatening to me. And I saw this video the other day of a man, he looks like he's in his late 40s, maybe 50s. And he's just sitting out back. This probably is an actor doing this. Because then the teaching comes on after that.

So it's probably an actor. But the fellow, his wife comes out and says, what are you doing? And he said, I'm just sitting here thinking about this spool of wire. When we were first married, this thing was full. It was a full spool of wire. But now there's only a little bit left.

You know, I'm going to have to get another spool of wire. And I was just thinking about, you know, he's trying to communicate something deep. And she says, oh, that's, I don't remember what she says. She says, that's dumb or whatever, you know, just. And he gets up and walks away. He gets up because he shuts down. He's sharing something from deep inside as he's just sitting out there.

And that can happen on either side for the husband or the wife can shut down the feelings of the other person. And you don't want to do that. Right, Gary? Yeah.

Yeah. Tell me about it. So he says something that doesn't make any sense to you at all. But rather than saying, that's stupid or I don't know what you're talking about. Well, tell me about it. Ask questions. They've got something on their mind when they say something you don't understand.

And if you ask questions, you'll learn where they are and where they're coming from. This whole thing, you know, the Scriptures say that a husband and wife are to become one flesh. I mean, it's deep, deep intimacy. You know, it's sharing life on every possible level. And that's where the marriage really finds its meaning, when you have that sense that we're connected. Communication is a big part of that. I mean, listening and talking about all kind of things and sharing life with each other and emotions with each other, all that. Exceedingly important.

All right. Let's get really, really practical for somebody who's listening today and there's some pressure in your marriage. You're married to somebody who works all the time. There's financial stress in your marriage. There's stress with the kids. How can couples manage those challenges without having them damage their relationship?

John, you first. I think when couples keep their priorities in alignment with God's design, I think that is one of the ways that they can tackle these challenges. And really, it starts with putting God first. God always needs to be at the center of marriage and all of life and relationships, for that matter. We often use an equilateral triangle. That's one that has the same length on all sides to illustrate the principle of keeping God at the center of marriage. He's actually at the top of this triangle at the apex and the husband and wife are at the bottom two corners. The triangle teaches us that as both husband and wife move closer to God, they're moving up the triangle, up the sides toward God.

Their relationship is not only growing closer to him, but it's also growing closer to one another. So the closer a couple gets in their relationship with God, the deeper and more meaningful their relationship as husband and wife are. So we encourage couples to put God first, press into God, grow in your knowledge of him, your faith and trust in him, your love for him and obedience as well. And then second to God comes the marriage, your spouse. After your relationship with God, your marriage needs to be the second highest priority. That means the love of a husband for his wife and a wife's love for a husband should be the most intimate human relationship.

And then children come after that, their third. If the couple has children, they become that next priority and making time is essential here. Oftentimes it's the easiest thing to neglect, especially when other pressures in life begin to mount. And for husbands, I know it's easy to say, hey, my work is what provides income and that's what provides good health and well-being for my family. That's why I have to give work such a high priority. And there is some truth to that, but financial security does not necessarily equal relational security. I'm sure you've heard the old adage that on a deathbed, you never hear somebody say, boy, I wish I would just have spent more time focusing on my work.

It's always their family. So ultimately investing time in growing and nurturing your family in the Lord is far more valuable than work. And then fourth, after that would come career and finances. Some might even put church into this fourth bucket. Regardless, couples need to resist the temptation to put that level higher than the other three. It's sometimes the easiest one to elevate, but it must always stay in its proper position there after God and family.

I certainly agree with that, John. I think, you know, if we have the sense that we have 18 years with our children, for example, and then they're going to be moving on for the most part, not always, but for the most part. Whatever we're going to do, the kind of relationship we're going to build, it has to be built during those 18 years.

And it's either going to be positive or it's going to be negative. And sometimes it's just that we just don't take time with our kids, you know. And so I remember when my kids were little, and of course I could control my schedule. I was on a pastoral staff, so I would go home every afternoon at three o'clock and just be there with the kids when they came home from school.

Spend some time helping them with their homework if they needed it, and then playing games with them, and all that sort of thing, you know. But we all have the same amount of time. It's just we choose how we're going to spend it, and we can allow things to pull us away from the things that are most important. You know, I think if a couple could have a daily sit-down time, and I know this can be hard if you have two or three children, or sometimes people have more than that. But even if it's 15 minutes, just a sit-down time every day, just like we do with God.

At least I hope you have that kind of time with God. We sit down with God. We sit down with each other and say, Honey, tell me three things, or two or three things that happened today and how you feel about them.

And they just share. They can be simple things. They can be positive things.

They can be negative things. It's just something that happened and how you feel about it. We're just sharing life together. We're walking through life together. And what I would also encourage, and I do this at all of my marriage conferences, is that a couple share one book every year on marriage with each other.

And here's what I mean by share. You each read the same chapter, and then you say, What could we learn from this chapter? And this is a great book to do that way, because it's 31 chapters on 31 important issues.

If each of you reads that chapter, and then you say, What can we learn from that chapter? I predict that by the time you finish that, you are going to be growing. Throughout the whole thing, you're going to be growing in your marriage.

And I just say, you know, do that the rest of your life. One book every year. You share one book every year on marriage with each other. It's just a practical way of continuing to grow, because the book is an outside voice talking about a particular aspect of marriage, and giving you a chance to respond to that voice.

And you can disagree, or you can agree with the voice, but at least you're discussing that concept with your spouse. So that's one of my suggestions, and one of my hopes for this book is that couples will use it, because it's, as we said earlier, it's an easy read. It's geared toward being practical, and I think any couple, whatever their background, will profit a lot as they work through this book. Well, John, as we know, a lot of people buy books on Amazon, so let me ask you this. What messages would you like to see on Amazon about this book?

What is your hope? Amazon comments are, of course, very important. I'd love to see somebody on Amazon say they read the book, and it revolutionized the way they view their marriage, and gave them some practical guidance and advice that really made a difference. And, you know, marriages are either growing or they're regressing.

They're never standing still. It's vital that we be about growth. My hope is that this book stimulates growth and maturity in couples, individuals, as they really prioritize their relationship. I also would want to see that it would deepen their relationship with God, as mentioned before, you know, focus on their personal relationship with Jesus first. I would hope that it would prompt some people to do that, and then that that would lead a couple together to mutual relationship with God, where they are working together on their spiritual lives, the spiritual disciplines and reading God's Word together and discussing that and praying together. You know, I think that praying together is so important.

You can't overstate the positive impact of it. One study says that couples who pray regularly together have a divorce rate of less than 1%. So I'd hope that this book stimulates prayer among couples, and that if they've never read "The 5 Love Languages" , this includes a chapter on the love languages, and I would hope that it would turn on some lights for them and then encourage them to take the next step of buy the book and read it and understand it even more, and then maybe take the next step and buy "The 5 Love Languages" premium assessment for husband and wife and really dive deeply into understanding the love languages. And on the flip side of that, the last thing I'll say is I would hope that they would say that the apology languages is a concept that is deeply meaningful for them.

When you damage your relationship in some way, it's very important that you understand your spouse's apology language and offer an apology that's meaningful to them immediately. In the process, hopefully, then they would forgive you for whatever it is that you did. So that's my hope.

I'd love to see some five star reviews. But if that happens, what I just mentioned, then I'd be very happy. Well, John, I've told you this before. I really appreciate you joining me and writing this book, and I'm excited about the possibility of what you just shared really happening in people's lives. And I want to also thank you for being with us today on Building Relationships. Thank you.

It's been a wonderful privilege to be with you. And if you'd like to find out more about this excellent resource, go to buildingrelationships.us. The title again, A Simple Guide for a Better Marriage. Quick, practical insights every couple needs to thrive.

Just go to buildingrelationships.us. And next week, discover nine habits from the Bible and brain science that can help reduce your anxiety. Hear a fascinating discussion with Dr. Charles Stone in one week. A big thank you to our production team, Steve Wick, Janice Backing and Merle St. James. Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman is a production of Moody Radio in association with Moody Publishers, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute. Thanks for listening.