Producers' Pick | Dr. Todd Rose: Collective Illusions

The more you listen, the more you'll know. It's Brian Kilmeade. We're the elderly and some of the, and other folks with severe disease.

We've never tried it. When's the U.S. going to do it? My hope is now. That all plays into the theme of Dr. Todd Rose, co-founder of the Think Tank Populist, former director of the Mind, Brain, and Education Program at Harvard, author of a brand new book, Collective Illusions, Conformity, Complicity, and the Science of Why We Make Bad Decisions. Dr. Rose, welcome. Hey, thanks for having me. Todd, first off, what about this Hopkins study?

Not to get into detail on it, but lockdowns didn't work, don't work. Yeah, look, I mean, I think early on, you know, there was some debate and I think, you know, we were all trying to do our best, but at this point, a lot of the things we're doing are largely about following what we think our groups want us to do rather than following the actual science. And I think as we emerge from this pandemic and it becomes an endemic, we've got to smarten up a bit and really rely on the evidence rather than just group think. And do you find that group think is a problem?

Right. I think it's pretty clear to everybody in the country right now, we've got a big problem with group think. And what I tried to cover in my book is that collective illusions are a special kind of group think, right? Like we all want to be with our group and so we are wired to conform, but it sort of assumes that you know what your group really thinks. But what we found in place after place in American society today is we are spectacularly wrong about what our groups really believe.

And so as a result, we're conforming to a phantom and it becomes something where the entire group ends up doing something that almost nobody really wanted except for a vocal fringe. So you give an example in your book of segregation. Segregation you say was perpetuated for decades longer in the American South because of the collective illusion of whites believing other whites opposed it when a majority supported it privately. You want to expand on that?

Yeah, I thought it was really interesting. This work around collective illusions goes back 100 years, but this was such a good example of how misreading our groups, our in groups can lead us to hold back social progress. So a researcher named Hubert O'Gorman had been studying private attitudes of white people in the South around integration and the vast majority of them were in favor of it, but they were absolutely convinced that most white people still wanted segregation. And so they didn't dare to speak up because they didn't want to go against their group. And it was argued that this held back racial integration by about a decade. And we've still paying the price for that, you could say, and it took radical change and the radical change that most people are comfortable with.

So on a daily basis, what else do you discover that we're doing? You say, for example, that humans just make bad decisions. Well, look, when I when I say bad decisions, you know, look, if you want to conform to your group because you want to belong more than state your honesty, that's up to you. But it becomes a really bad decision when your conformity is to a social lie. Right. Where your group doesn't even want the thing. And so your behavior, your conformity hurts you.

Right. The sort of mental health aspects, the self-esteem aspects of going against your own values. But it also hurts the group because your behavior is trying is convincing everybody else that we all want something that nobody really wants. And that's what's going on in America today in almost all aspects of our lives.

For example. So for me, anything that matters, it's a coin toss whether you're wrong about the group right now. But the one that's the most important to me is we just did private opinion research, the largest study ever of what Americans want for the future of the country. And when we asked people before giving them this private opinion instrument, you know, are we divided? Like 82 percent of people said, of course, we're divided.

And half of those people said we are extremely divided. And yet when we gave these thousands of people across all walks of life, this private opinion instrument, what emerges is shocking common ground about our aspirations for America. And you may not be surprised to learn that the things we all want across all demographics are nothing short of core American values. Right. Like, for example, like across all demographics, people still care about individual rights.

It just doesn't seem like it. Right. We want a fair shot at the American dream. And we recognize that there's things we owe each other to make that dream possible. Things like health care, a good education and a fair criminal justice system. And one of my favorite things is what what we all don't want is we don't want top down control. We're sick of the federal government telling communities that individuals had to live their lives. And this could be extremely valuable for any politician if they fully understood what you were saying.

In fact, it's hard to imagine that if if what you're saying is true, then and they agreed to it, they would be doing the things they're doing right now. But that's exactly right. So the problem here is that our brains are actually really bad at reading the majority, because the shortcut your brain uses is it thinks the loudest voices repeated the most often are the majority.

So you can see the problem there. Right. Especially with social media, where 80 percent of content on Twitter is generated by 10 percent of the users. And those people are not even remotely representative America.

But think about it. If you think if 10 percent people hold an opinion, but you think it's 80 percent. Well, what happens if I don't want to go against the group, then I'm just going to self-silence. And that's what we're seeing today.

Right. Two thirds of Americans report that they self-silence on things that matter to them. But to your point, if I'm a politician right now, you've got to recognize your brain is misleading you. Your fringe on your own party seems like it has a firmer grasp on the majority and it does not. And if you come back and look at what we know about Americans and their values for their lives, for each other, for the country, there is so much common ground and it is not radical.

It is core American values. And if you will say that out loud, you will be shocked at the consensus that you'll find there. So, Todd, would you say that this is a new phenomenon because of the advent of social media, that if I was talking to you in the 70s, you might have different you wouldn't have to tell everybody that they agree on all this stuff? Right. So we know that collective illusions have existed for quite a while.

The first research on them was 100 years ago. But to your point, up until social media, they were pretty rare. Right.

You could probably count on two hands a number of ones that really mattered. But with social media and with the ability for a vocal fringe, a small minority of people to give the impression that a lot of people agree with them, our brains aren't designed for that. And so we've got to recognize that it's not that we shouldn't be on social media, it's that we've got to realize it is a funhouse of mirrors and we can't let that distortion affect how we treat each other in real life. So how do we attack this? If you could identify the problem effectively and you do in your book Collective Illusions, do we live with it? Do we just recognize it? How do we attack it and change it?

So look, yeah, look, there is a straightforward answer here and it's not rocket science, even though it still can be difficult. Since self silencing is the root cause of all collective illusions, solving the problem means we've got to have the moral courage to be honest about our own views with each other and the civic courage to make it safe for others to do the same. Like that is what we believed in. Those are core American values, right? Self-expression and respect for differences. But we've got to live up to those right now. And if we do, I promise you will come out of this cultural tailspin and we can get back to higher levels of social trust.

We'll reveal our shared values and we can start to address some of the problems we really do have. From the Fox News Podcast Network, I'm Ben Domenech, Fox News contributor and editor of the transom.com daily newsletter. And I'm inviting you to join a conversation every week. It's the Ben Domenech podcast.

Subscribe and listen now by going to Fox News podcast.com. Well, that's interesting. So when you approach this book, I knew you believed in it because that's what you've been studying. How do you how do you what do you hope people take away from it? They don't go to Harvard.

They don't necessarily get into the political field or care much about political opinion, but they care about the country. Right. And for me, that's that's why I wrote the book. Right. Because we don't need to talk to more Harvard people. We need to talk to each other. And here's what I would say. Right now, most people are sitting back and they're feeling like some version of am I crazy or did the rest of the country go crazy almost overnight?

It feels like we're almost living in a foreign country. And here's the thing. Even though it seems like it's true, it's not.

That's the first thing. You've just got to recognize that collective illusions are real and they are tricking your brain into believing something that is not correct. The second thing is that while it feels like we have no power, that is not true because it is the people that are upholding these illusions, which means it's we the people that can do something about it. And it gets back to that having the courage to to share your honest opinions.

Right. It doesn't offend people. People want to hear from you and making the space for other people to do the same. So you're saying speak up. You know, they keep saying, well, when it comes to Thanksgiving, keep your opinions to yourself. If you see a stranger and you don't agree with them, you're better off just keeping quiet. And I'm not going to hurt my career by speaking up. Are you encouraging people in the right situation to start speaking up?

Yeah, look, here's here's what's funny. There are certainly people who are feeling the pressure of cancel culture and and honestly don't feel like there's too many economic sanctions or social sanctions. They don't feel safe to do that.

I understand that. In the book, I give some specific strategies they can use as opposed to silence. But here's the thing. In our own private opinion research, we found that the overwhelming super majority of Americans say that they are self silencing not because of cancel culture, but because decency. They just don't want to hurt other people's feelings or cause conflict. And to those people, I am saying like you think that people are overly sensitive, but they're actually not. They actually don't feel that way.

They just think everybody are too sensitive. And like by not speaking up, by self silencing, you are giving the impression that the majority believe something that the majority does not believe. And there is a way to speak your mind without being disagreeable.

Right. The last thing I'll say about this is one of the biggest collective illusions in America today is that the overwhelming majority of Americans across all demographics prioritize wanting to treat one another with respect regardless of our differences. But they are convinced they are in the minority.

They think most Americans no longer care about respectful disagreement. And it's just not true. So I'll give you an example. I'm reading two biographies of the same. I'm reading two books at the same time. Ben Carson's got a book about growing up in the south and being black, mostly white schools. Booker T. Washington actually grew up a slave.

He was nine years old when he got his freedom back in the late 1880s into the early 20th century. And both cite different times in which racism is so flagrant. But both look past it, go out that they're ignorant, but I'm moving on.

I'm they're ignorant, but I'm moving on. Ben Carson threatened don't play on the football team. We don't want black kids on the football team. Don't go to school. We don't want black kids.

And he goes, I'm going to school anyway. And he started meeting more and more people that did accept him and didn't focus on people that didn't because he realized they were the minority. And a lot of times they were just ignorant. They had no idea. They had no life experience to act any differently. And I didn't watch this guy become a brain surgeon.

Booker T. Washington become an adviser to the president of the United States. And yet other people in minority situations say that life has dealt me a bad hand. It's not easy being Spanish, not easy being black.

I can't get anywhere. Those two realities, you're much better off in order for happiness to be the Ben Carson, Booker T. Washington. But none of them are necessarily wrong, correct? That's exactly right. I love that point, right? My view is that as an individual, I have to play the hand that's dealt to me.

And it doesn't really help me to blame anybody else. But as a society, we need to look at this and say, look, of course, racism is real. Of course, discrimination is real. And we want a country where every single individual, regardless of their background, has a fair shot at earning their own success, right? A fair shot American dream. And the way forward is not through group grievance.

It's not. That path leads to destruction for society. It is to solve the unfairness and injustices through our values. Those timeless American values that were there from the beginning. We've never been perfect to them, but we have always committed to a more perfect union. That's our call today.

And if we do that, I promise you, those are the shared values of the vast majority of Americans across all demographics. I find that fascinating and heartening that, you know, the grievance is not going to work. Meaning is not going to be effective. You got to get in the mindset of solving what's good.

How do I fix the bad? And that and that indeed, instead of picking sides, I want to bring you to it turns out like the absurd throws off people you never thought would be thrown off. For example, I listen to Bill Maher for the first time over the last six months because his monologues could be like Tucker Carlson's monologues.

I can't believe how similar they are yet. They said they would vote for different people in ninety nine point nine percent of elections. Listen to what he said on Friday. When normal people read that San Francisco has basically legalized shoplifting, they think Democrats have gone nuts. They think, you know, that Ted Cruz Cruz guy seems like a real stiff, but at least he believes in the concept of shopping with money. It's not my fault that the party of FDR and JFK is turning into the party of LOL and WTF. And he goes on to say, abolish rent, abolish mortgages, don't pay off your student loans.

Where does that come from? So he's looking at this and saying, please don't tell me this is where the country is going. And you're trying to tell him through this book it's not.

It is 100 percent not. And once once we recognize the concept of a collective illusion that it is a real phenomenon and it's why our brains make us think that this is what the majority want, but it's just a vocal fringe. And you can see this look on the left. There's a lot of illusions to go around. But that same idea of like defund the police in response to a real moral problem.

This idea of like a vocal fringe saying we should abolish the police. It sure felt like on the left that that was a majority opinion. Of course, that illusion got shattered really quickly when we put it to a vote.

And you see an overwhelming majority of people in Minneapolis say, no, thank you. Right. We also want to be safe. But let me just be clear, and I think this is really important, that moral courage that I talked about. It's not enough to speak to the illusion that the other side is falling for. Our greatest power as individuals is to speak up in our own group.

Right. Like we know on the right that there are there there are illusions that we're under, whether it's around addressing climate change or, frankly, even the 2020 election. And we need to be honest about those things, because the consequences of not being honest are so damaging to society. Dr. Roja, I think you made your point. It's a great book, so appropriate for now.

Collective illusions, conformity, complicity in the science of why we make bad decisions. Dr. Todd Rose, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Back in a moment.