You're listening to Breakpoint This Week, where we're talking about the top stories of the week from a Christian worldview. Today we're going to talk about the assassination of conservative commentator Charlie Kirk. We're so glad you're with us. Stick around. Welcome to Breakpoint this week.
From the Coulson Center for Christian Worldview, I'm Maria Baer, alongside John Stone Street, president of the Coulson Center. John, we're recording this mid-morning Friday morning. You and I are just now kind of reading news about a suspect being caught. In the killing of Charlie Kirk at the event on a campus in Utah earlier this week. I know we want to talk this morning about this assassination, what this means for us culturally.
what we should or can learn from it, how to process this. I want to turn it over to you, but I want to maybe just start by asking you. What kind of moment are we in right now? What is this age that we're in and has it changed this week?
Well, I think that's the sense that a lot of people have, and I do think that's a conversation that We need to have Absolutely. For the last Three or four years. I have been advocating for a framing of A Christian Worldview. which I kind of referred to as keeping the story in the moment straight. In other words, we need to know what the moment is, but the only real way to know what the moment is is to be deeply grounded in the story of reality, capital T, capital S.
The story, the true story of reality. And that's not a theological way of uh dodging your question It is an attempt to start at the right place. And I you know, it's interesting because when you ask this question. What I immediately Think here. is of that thing that I Absolute.
and how hard it is in real life. because when you're in the chaos of a moment, particularly like this one, where I do think a lot has changed. I do think this is a marker. We're going to talk later on about some of the other folks who have suggested this. And they've suggested this because it's, I think it's true, I think they're insightful, I think they're right.
you know, in the same way. That You know, it's it's it's it's kinda crazy that this is the week of remembering 9-11 too. I was thinking, in fact, my breakpoint commentary on on on Friday. started by a re reflection on Yeah. Uh 2011.
ten years afterwards and I was sitting on a Sunday morning. Or on that Sunday morning with my daughters who were very young. My wife was running a r a a race with her dad. And out of nowhere. Just wept.
Just wept. Just broke down. My younger kids are mad about that because They don't remember it. And they're like, we never see you cry. And I did, I did, right in front of them.
I just. It was just overwhelming to think ten years into it. I don't know if it was the 10 years. I don't know if it was what it was like the. a realization that this is The world's just so completely different than the one that I had imagined for them.
It was all about them. crazy.
Now I say that not to make any of this or to tell the story as if I th there's people who sense that We've entered a moment. We've entered, we've crossed an invisible line, Konstantin Kissen said. I think he's right. But If it's true in a theoretical way that we have to keep the story in the moment straight, That the truth about the moment is only seen from the angle Creation, fall, redemption, restoration, the centrality of Christ over all of reality. The death and resurrection, securing what is true.
It's got to be true about every moment. And that makes me remember. That that in all the political intrigue and all the the curiosity, like why this has struck such a nerve. at an incredible level. for someone He was just 31 who Had a big social media, incredible social media.
He had built a political movement, was maybe the most effective political operator. of our of recent memory, of our lifetimes. He was a dad. is a husband. He was a follower of Jesus Christ.
He was committed to his faith. He talked about it. Courageously. And I don't know. I guess that's where I just want to begin with kind of like.
All the things that he did is not who he. was what it says about the moment. is important. But who he was in Christ is more important to remember it at at times like these. And yeah, I want to get there.
I just I don't know. I keep kind of going back to this this reality of of You know what did to me? I'm I'm gonna see if this resonates with you, because The pictures of Charlie with his little kids, especially his little girl. There's two of em in particular. You know, little girls are amazing.
One of the ways that they're amazing is their ability to crouch down. For hours at a time. Like Their knees are unbelievable. I just kind of like, what is that like? How do you do that?
I always used to, you know, marvel at it with my own girls. I always loved it when they did that because they were studying something or completely fixated or locked in on something, you know what I mean? And it was like this moment of you see like their bla their brains being you just like expanded right in front of your face with their permanently in flexible knees you know Carrying the weight. It's just amazing. But there was an image of that at a beach with him.
And I just, those are just incredible. Those are things that just strike you. I don't know. I think also. the little girl holding his hand.
Not his hand because little girls' hands aren't big enough. Just holding that one finger. I did that all the time, too. It's just, these are just incredible. Things and tell you the truth about him.
I guess If I were to sum up and Maybe we can come back to this too. You know, have we entered a new moment? I don't know that we've entered one, but there's an exposure when you contrast those things. The callousness the quickness of so many to Yeah. Celebrate.
Ridicule, justify. We live in such a profoundly dehumanizing thing. And then you have these images of how profoundly human you have. These Testimonies. And somehow we have disconnected.
who people are from their political affiliation and and and so on as if their ideas change who they are. And I agreed with his ideas. And you kind of see that the hatred. For certain viewpoints become the hatred. for individuals.
And that, of course, is unsustainable. It's an unsustainable place to be as a civilization. I'm struggling with it not feeling real, and you know, like I'm trying to integrate this into my understanding of the world, too. And I, like you, am looking at all of. I look at the news every day in terms of my kids.
So, like, what kind of world are they in, and how do I prepare them for it and teach them about it? And I wonder if that is a marker of this moment too, or if this has marked other moments as well. In the past, you know, people, a lot of people are drawing comparisons between right now and the 60s, for example, where there was a lot of political violence. We've had political activists. assassinated before and presidents and All of that kind of thing.
This feels different in my lifetime. But I wonder if part of this just it just doesn't feel real. I wonder if it felt real to the assassin. I wonder if it felt real to the people there. It still doesn't feel real to me now, but so much of life is.
Simulated in a more poignant way than it used to be. Like we have our conversations over screens, we play video games. We perform our anger, we perform our celebrations sometimes. Not all of that's disingenuous, but it is certainly a new thing culturally. And I just wonder if that's part of this too.
And part of why I'm struggling to make sense of it. And it Feel it. I'm reading a novel right now, and there was a description in the scene of this girl, young girl's first trip to the ocean. And she says something like, The loudness and the spray and just the bigness of it, I just had this sense that so much was happening that was getting past me. Like I was not able to take it all in.
And that's how I feel this week. Does that make sense? No, it does. And I mean, I'd add to your list of performances, there's been some performances of grief as well. I think that.
Part of the reality of living in a digital age is how everyone rushes into claim. a place in the story. That's just kind of part of it. It is interesting to see. Even some folks who initially celebrated kind of come back and go, I can't believe I did that.
Right. As if, you know, it wasn't real. It was like that they were participating in some show or some play. And There was a book written years ago by Neil Gabler, called Life on the Screen. And this is something that we're going to have to reckon with on all kinds of levels, not just this, but this is a kind of a vignette of it.
is what does it mean to experience these things, these national trauma? tragedies, these Horrific events, these kind of cataclysmic sorts of cultural markers. Through a screen, through digitization, you know, and all the values and all the habits that it's already. kind of created in us. That there's a way you have to do something, you know.
I mean, immediately, people. we're saying, you know, kind of taking stock of who said something and who didn't say something. What did they say? And people felt like they needed to jump out and You know, tweet because you have to tweet it a ton like this. And I just don't think those values are helpful.
But then there's also the experiencing of it, right? In other times and in other places, we would not see. We would have no way of seeing.
Now that millions have seen what took place. Not just heard, but seen what took place. And there is a participation by proxy, and yet people didn't really participate. And there's that. At the same time, this has struck such an incredible nerve.
Why is it that this feels different? Maybe the media part of this explains some of it, but it doesn't explain all of it. People have drawn the parallel with the 60s. Political violence tends to come into the mix. But another aspect of this is why this is considered political violence.
CNN on the night of the assassination. Put it in that context. By listing Uh a whole Set of A timeline of the last two, three decades of uh acts of political violence and they were all politicians. Charlie wasn't a politician. Charlie was someone who talked about what he believed.
He would go on college campus and argue and and present his case. And I want to talk about just that act too and what we could learn from that, I think. But To call this an act of political violence is part of the story of our culture in which everything has become political.
Now, he was a political operative. He developed a political movement, incredibly effective political movement, something that we haven't seen, particularly on the right in our lifetimes. I may never see again. in terms of just the compellingness and the courage and so on. But it's a Uh it is something that that that he's listed in with all these Politicians.
And you kind of think, well There is another, I guess it's another piece of evidence of how much politics. has taken up all the space in the room. Everything is political. And this was, there's no question. It's the right thing to call it, but it's that it was an act of political violence.
But it was also an act of violence. It was also an. Active political violence because someone disagreed with your views. You know, not because we were taking out a dictator, right? This guy never held elected office, could have.
Never did.
So that's a part of this that kind of tells us the kind of moment we're in, I think. You know, as well.
Well, John, let's take a quick break. I want to talk with you more about what Charlie had done, what he was setting, the kind of movement he was setting up by going onto these campuses.
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So please join us, laying a strong foundation for the future by becoming a cornerstone monthly partner of the Colson Center. Visit us at colsoncenter.org slash monthly. That's colsoncenter.org slash monthly. We're back on breakpoint this week. John, there's a lot of clips of Charlie who have been sent around this week.
One of them that I caught the other day was of a woman stopping by one of his events on a campus and saying, What are you doing? Why are you doing this? What are you here for? Because He kind of famously would would go into campuses. Set up this tent basically and invite people to come and debate ideas with him.
And he had a response that is now kind of feels eerily prescient. He said, when we stop talking, then bad things happen, bad stuff happens. Talk to me about what he started, how this movement started, and why it was new and novel to go on to college campuses and do this kind of thing. You would imagine a college campus would be. the very place where that kind of thing was already happening, but he really started something new.
Uh, he didn't start something new. He did it differently and he did it bigger, but there were others doing it. Fair enough. Uh, and I, I mean, which is an interesting thing. There was something a about Charlie, it was this smile or or The fact that he could, he would, you know, tell the if you disagree with me, come to the front of the line, you know, that was a a wonderful aspect of it.
But I know the clip you're talking about. A lot of people have seen it now. And it's... It's just really something. A couple parts of that clip really strike me.
One is the woman's like. Incredulity. What are you doing? Like, I don't have any category to place that someone. would actually go in and try to talk with people they disagree with, right?
I mean And it kind of reflects the siloed culture that we've reached that that you don't talk across those lines. And then The prescience of Charlie's line. that when the conversation or the dialogue stops, that's when the violence begins. I was struck the of the parallels between that statement and something that Oz Guinness says in the Truth Rising film. Where he says utopian visions always end in violence.
Because there's always a gap between what the utopia promised and the reality, and you got to bridge that gap. And it's violence that bridges that gap as the utopians try to force the reality. If that makes sense. And obviously we're not talking here on a civilizational level, but but we really are is that if the ideal is to get rid of all dissent. And that will bring a perfect world.
That is the leftist vision of dialogue. And I, you know, some on the right probably hold that too, but it is predominantly. what we have seen in the cancel culture mindset. is that the way to fix the world is to get rid of dissent.
So what you do is you call dissent. It's not real violence, but you call it violence and that way you can get rid of it. And What? Charlie argued instead for this to this woman, is that no, no, no, no. You have to have discussion because if you don't have discussion, you'll have violence.
In other words, Getting rid of dissent. There's still a gap between Getting rid of dissent and that reality that you think it's going to bring, and it's not going to be there, and it's going to be filled with something. And what a prescient statement. I was just struck this week by those parallels because of. you know, obviously we're spending a lot of time, you know, talking about Truth rising in the film and wrestling through with What what odds there says What an incredible Insight by Charlie And he was right.
And you know what? What's incredible? Is you could say, well, you know, he did the discussion and the violence still came. It did, but it was. Obviously, an attempt to stop the discussion.
It was an attempt to stop the speech, that this doesn't. belong there that his views not only don't have a place there, but they don't have a place anywhere. Charlie's strategy was to go to The place where conversation was supposed to happen and was not happening. There's a reason why the incredible number of Hosts celebrating. His Execution, his assassination came from college professors.
They have tenure, so they think they're unassailable. And The notion of free speech. On college campuses has been a joke for a long time. And he would go there. And, you know, there were all kinds of conversations.
I remember. you know, in the last 10, 20 years being in incredible Conversations, people still having them about how we can take the universities back. Let's take the universities back. Let's take the universities back. And it's like, what strategy do we need?
Charlie just set up a table on campus and said, Let's have a conversation. And w you you can't say that he took the universities back if you mean like you know The halls of power, or the presidencies, or the teachers association, the faculty lounge. But you know where he took it back? He went right to the kids. He went right to the students.
You know, the other thing about his strategy, and this is probably what is different. You know, as you said, this is new. It did feel new, right? I mean, it was a creative approach. There were, but, you know, there people have gone and You know, apologists would go on college campus and so on.
One of the things that was innovative about Charlie is that questions about God, questions about sports, and questions about politics were all fair game. There's some really funny clips going around where he's like, did so-and-so get robbed of the Heisman? You know, and who's the best quarterback? And what's Kobe, you know, what's who's the, who's the GOAT, Kobe or MJ? And by the way, the right answer to that question is MJ.
Which Charlie agreed with. But it was also, you know, the question about Um transgender There was an attempt to hold it together. And Francis Schaefer famously said that the problem with Christians is they see the world in bits and pieces instead of totals. He tried to do the total. Do we have to agree with all the ways that he put the pieces together?
Did he sometimes conflate? things. I'm sure he did. I do too. I don't have to, you know.
Agree with all. all all the implications and applications of his thinking. to say that the attempt to hold it together, the attempt to put it on the category of truth. was the absolutely the right impulse. And and he was proving and he demonstrated that this oh we gotta Present the gospel and not talk about politics because to talk about politics is not to present the gospel.
Is just wrongheaded because all truth is God's truth. You don't have to say that he got it all right to say that that attempt was the right attempt. And then he would talk about it. He would just go and. and talk about it.
So that was innovative and the way he did that. And of course, you know, the clever table and. and prove me wrong and you know And people wanted to do it. They wanted to have conversations. Why did we like Watching these so much.
I mean, I like my whatever algorithm is happening to me this week on YouTube or whatever as I'm. just kind of learning more about Charlie honestly and about TPUSA and about his movement. And It is, there's some, there's an addiction, there's an addictive quality to watching these videos of him. He's very, very captivating. He's very like the word I kept thinking of was unflappable.
You know, and I've heard lots of accounts of him that he kind of moderated over the years. He was obviously very young when he started, but that he just kept getting better and better at this and just engaging calmly with people, but also very quick, very smart. But I'm curious about my own reactions to these videos. I just want to keep watching them. I think.
Again, part of it is me trying to make sense of this whole thing, but Why do we like watching these debates? Is this part of the fall? Am I like a member of the mob? Or is this me? Hungering and thirsting for righteousness, and hoping to see it in each new clip.
I can't answer that question for you personally, Maria, although there's so many snarky things I want to say right now about why it must be the case for you. It is. I mean, and I think the first answer is it's not your social media algorithms. It is just the fact that Charlie is Is did peop people are seeing more in his death than they saw in his life. And that's true on a couple levels.
There's a lot, I've been struck by the number of voices who. have said, you know, I didn't really like this. I thought, you know. He was brash or whatever and But I realized I never had Even watched it, and I now go watch it, and I'm like, why did I hate him? You know, why did I disagree with him?
Why did I have a problem with this? And I think the answer to that is that there was this narrative that uh about him That immediately was applied in the wake of his assassination by, you know, the most famous one is Dowd, is Matthew Dowd over at MSNBC. you know who just claimed. He was Racist, misogynist, blah, blah, blah, you know, all the other lines. And you just kind of go back, and everyone, as you reclined at the New York Times, went back and said, you look at it and he was doing it He was doing it right.
You might not agree with his views. But he was doing it right. And he was doing it right because he was willing to have those conversations. There's nothing like it on the left, I will tell you that. There's nothing like.
There's no figure like him, but there's no real attempt. You know, the closest you get, I guess, is Abby Phillips' show on CNN. where she has, you know, four leftists and then w Scott Jennings. You know, and maybe one other guy across the table. That's not the same as like sitting at a table saying, you know, kind of gather around and ask questions.
I'm sure there's some voyeuristic answers to that question, you know, like. That that Probably have to do with what Marshall McLuhan and Neil Postman and all the other people said about our. kind of fascination with with social media.
Well, before social media, they talked about the kind of people we were and how that applies to social media. But I I think there's a real crisis of confidence among many people and among many Christians. I think about your statement of unflappable. You know, if somebody came up and wanted to have a fight with me about whether the earth is round or flat. I would be unflappable.
And what I mean by that is I'm not going to get too upset because clearly I'm going to read the room. I'm also Not going to be afraid to say, this is my view on this, and here's the evidence that I have. Not you know, not that I have deep scientific evidence, but There you go. Cue the emails that we're going to get about evidence that the earth is not right. Start walking and don't stop until you end back in the same place, but go on.
Oh, man. Yeah.
So. But but but but what is wh why is that? Just have a level of confidence in it. How many Christians do we see With some of these issues. that were brought up.
questions about morality, sexuality. You know. politics, law. Things like that. And where you see people, when it comes up, they just go silent.
You know? Or they just go irate. And anxious, and it reveals, I think, a crisis of confidence.
So what you saw there was a I think a growing level of confidence. that he had. And it made me think, you know, it's such a great question. And it made me think of something C.S. Lewis said.
Lewis said that The faith never seemed more more um what's the word tedious or vulnerable to him Then when he had just Finish defending it. He said, this is the the risk that an apologist faces. because you get to the point where you think this all rest on my ability to defend it. Mm-hmm. And he goes, that's and basically he was implying that's the wrong thing.
It either rests on its own authority. its own reliability, its own solid ground. Or your ability to articulate it. And especially when you're a wordsmith, right? Especially when you really try to do it and you have clever ways of saying things.
Lewis warned, and I think he was right, that that puts you in a really vulnerable place. It's different when you see somebody with confidence. And I think he had a growing... I think he had a growing degree of confidence. Listen, the tough edges.
He continually got sharper and sharper and sharper. in those questions. I think he also There's some really incredible examples. Where he was able, you know, Proverbs tells the difference between a seeker and a mocker. And when somebody came up to mock.
his response versus when someone came up and was legitimately saying I disagree with you, but tell me why I'm, you know. And here's what I think, and I think you're wrong. And especially, I think, with people who were obviously victims of their own bad ideas. There was a grace or at least a And a a a kindness or a an absolutely. A willingness to entertain and to hear them out.
And I think that was a growing. capacity that he had. I think it's likely that part of his confidence came from the fact that he was practicing this all the time. You know, most of the people coming up to talk with him prob you know d don't didn't have a career like his and he But that is a good example for us. I got an email last week, and I will be vulnerable and tell you that I actually cried after I got.
I rarely cry after I get. Pushback. This wasn't necessarily pushback to me, but I got an email from someone just letting me know that Sarah Groves A couple years ago, the singer that I always talk about. had come out a couple of years ago and said that she now considers herself an LGBTQ ally or something like that. And I one of the great things I've admired about Sarah Groves over the years is that she is very quiet.
I don't see her on social media or out talking about the news really. Um And I, yeah, I cried after that. And I watched the video of her talking about it. And I really did get the sense. She said something in the video that we hear all the time in these conversations, which is that somebody in her family had, or somebody close to them.
To her and her husband, had come out. And it forced her to reckon with: what do I think about this person's faith? Is it legitimate and is it real? And what does Jesus, you know? And just for, I was so shocked because somebody that, somebody so thoughtful and profoundly.
um like eloquent about her faith had not thought about it before That it didn't come up for her to wrestle with it until somebody in her life had come out and said, I'm gay, presumably. And this was the first time she'd thought about it. And I think it's a cautionary tale. to do more of what Charlie modeled, which is practicing it. Like, you know, practicing what C.S.
Lewis is saying, because I would wager that C.S. Lewis would have said that even though his faith feels most vulnerable after he has defended it. After he's defended it 10 more times, it probably feels slightly less vulnerable, right? And even if you're just if I think maybe that's part of the catharsis of watching some of Charlie Kirk's videos is I'd like to think it's not just because I want to watch a major takedown of such and such, but that it's a way for me by proxy to practice it. Or to hear somebody practicing it with confidence, even somebody from the other side.
And I'm wary of that in myself. The other day I went to the library and there was a person outside. wearing a Planned Parenthood apron and had a clipboard. And they were talking to somebody, so they didn't try to stop and talk to me when I walked in. But I have to confess that my first reaction was like, let's do this.
I'm like looking forward to this interaction. In part because it probably felt a little bit like the flat earth conversation. Like, I feel completely unflappable in this kind of conversation. But then I got into the library and thought, okay, I'll talk to her when I leave. And then I just didn't like how much I was looking forward to it.
And I couldn't quite put my finger on why.
So I waited until she left and I didn't talk to her. And then later I'm like, should I, you know, but I'm just a little wary of that impulse. But my most optimistic view of it is that we recognize it's good and necessary to practice our arguments and to really make sure we believe them and that we've thought about them.
So that when somebody in our family that we love comes out and says that they're gay, it's not the first time we're thinking about it. You know what I mean? I think Charlie modeled that well. You're right. That's a great point.
And I think it is. One of the things That is to our shame, is that we're so often caught off guard. You know, you kind of think of these Christian celebrities that go on, you know. I remember back in the the gay marriage conversation, you'd see a a famous pastor or preacher go on a You know, Larry King or one of those shows, and he would be asked that, and you would be clear, he was not prepared, and you're like. How did you not know this was coming?
Right. And and you know, this is uh Malcolm Gladwell's, you know, 10,000 hours, right? That's how how long it takes to master something. And and Kirk had had he had to be approaching that on on you know, on these um these conversations. But I don't want to miss A point, because you're right, you do get more confident as you go along.
You have the same question come up and just in a different form, and you know how to do it, and so on. And that was obvious. But there is a difference between relying on your rhetorical ability to defend something. and relying on the thing itself. And that's really hard to do when you're primarily defending political positions, but not theological positions, because what are you grounding those political positions in?
But if you're grounding those political or policy or You know, cultural positions and deeper truths of what is true about the human person. As revealed in Scripture, now you're relying on scripture.
Now you're relying on God. And that is a distinction worth noticing. that you you get better at it. But Lewis's point was precisely that. Is that You have to go back and rely on the truth, not your ability to defend the truth.
It sounds like a nuance and maybe a distinction without a difference, but I think he was right about it. I've had that sense. And I think that that's one of the things that has emerged: there is a real and true faith. He was willing to articulate it. He was willing to share it.
He tried to push back on the to be Christian in public is just to be nice. And that's what often rub people the wrong way. And I've just been struck.
so much by people going back and going, I don't know why I didn't like this guy. I don't know. Why didn't I had such a problem with this? You don't have to say that he always did it right to say that he did it. And the other thing I was thinking of, you know, there's an old line about DL Moody.
I think it's Moody. If not, you know, Moody is the one that always gets these kinds of quotes.
So I'm going to give it to him. where somebody said, I don't like the way you evangelize. And he goes, I like the way I evangelize better than the way you don't evangelize. And just like, I don't like the way you do that, but he did it, you know? And I think that's what you're hearing from a lot of young people.
is that I need to do it. I need to step into this, which is, which is really really fascinating. I, several months ago, was at an event that we talked about on the show at the University of Virginia, talking about young women and marriage and whether marriage looks low status to young women and why maybe they're putting it off until they're older, if they're doing it at all. And Brett Cooper was on the panel. She's a young kind of Conservative influencer on YouTube.
I think she's with, she was formerly with the Daily Wire. And I To confess, before going into this event, I didn't know who she was. She was very charming and kind of captivating on the panel, but very young. I think she's 23. But I had to contend afterwards.
I was watching all the kids at the University of Virginia line up to talk with her. You know, I'm all excited because Louise Perry is on the panel and I get to talk with her afterwards, but everybody's lining up to take pictures with Brett Cooper and talk with her. And I realized all of the women that were kind of defending marriage on that stage were very. I think persuasive and their ideas were very good, especially Louise Perry. But Brett Cooper's testimony might have been the most impactful in that setting.
because she is young and beautiful and cool. And that is not nothing. That was meaningful to the kids that were there. And I thought of that impression again. with Charlie this week because There are a lot of really smart conservatives and media savvy conservatives and theologians and people that are good at defending their faith.
Charlie was young and cool and calm. And he also modeled the kind of life he was talking about. Do you Was married and had two young children. and talked about it. He talked about boys becoming men and living that way.
And he modeled it in a way that was I'm sure in some areas, more persuasive than any of the conversations, right? It was just, he was a cool, charismatic guy, and that's not nothing. Let's take another break, John. We'll be right back with more breakpoint this week in just a moment. What is a human being worth?
In a culture that devalues life, getting this question right couldn't be more important. That's why we want to invite you to sign up for Why Life, Courageous Faith in a Culture of Death. This is a series of four short video excerpts from some of the best Colson Center National Conference sessions on life and human dignity. Featured speakers include Ryan Baumberger, Daniel Ritchie, Dr. Margaret Cottle, and Dr.
Kristen Collier. Each video comes with questions to help you think deeply and prompt discussions with your family, church members, and friends. Sign up for Why Life today at colsoncenter.org slash why life. That's colsoncenter.org slash Why life? We're back on breakpoint this week.
John, I want to return to something we talked about in the first segment. And we got a question a couple of weeks ago from a listener asking us: you know, how do we recognize what kind of moment we're in?
So you've talked before about. Being in a Bonhoeffer moment, being in a Wilberforce moment, in other words, trying to. Figure out what's kind of what moment we're in and what we're called to, I guess, is the more pressing question. I want to put that to you now. What kind of moment are we in?
Has it changed? And how do we recognize it? That is an important question. You know, why is it that? That this is an event that has captivated so many.
Certainly there has been the level of personal captivation, many people rethinking, many people doubling down on their hatred. That there was something about Charlie as an individual and as a person that has done that. But then there's the question is does this it just feels like this is a marker. This is a um a signpost of of You know, many people fear. A new level of, for example, of darkness, of that we've reached the point where.
When you think about A, calling what happened here political violence, and then realizing what it was that Charlie did, he literally went face to face with those he disagreed with. or who disagreed with him and had a conversation. over and over and over and over and over. And by doing that, attracted many, many, many people to the cause, to the movement. And because of that, he then became.
targeted. like this.
Now, there's things to be learned about the motives of the the shooter, you know, there have been people famous shot And when you get to the root of it, it's basically because they're famous. not because of their ideas. But sometimes it is. There's clearly something, you know, we we had a breakpoint commentary. Uh written by our friend Abdou Muri a couple weeks ago.
in which he talked about cancel culture becoming assassination culture. And I think that's the line that people are wondering if we've now crossed. Many people were moved. I was really captivated by some Lines from Constantine Kisson. Kisson is a a comedian and a political commentator out of the UK.
Uh he has been Articulate in his defense of the West, which is something because he came out of Russia. In our Truth rising. film, he jokes that he goes, I'm a Russian immigrant. That loves The UK loves Great Britain, which is how you know I'm not from Great Britain because you don't say that out loud. That's the kind of humor he has.
A snarky ability to point out the truth. And You know, he wrote a piece in which he talked about lines being crossed. and what that means. I think that There is some Real wisdom. that a lot of people were sensing the same thing.
Um You know, political violence does come in bunches, at least it did in the 60s. When it extends beyond Political figures, or at least elected officials, especially people at the top of the ticket, like. you know, presidents and vice presidents and things like that. To Others and Charlie was one of the others. Very effective at mobilizing that, but that's different.
And So that's what people are wondering. Are we in assassination culture? Abdu argued that when you talk about the. uh the execution of the United Healthcare uh CEO. When you talk about You know, um you know other uh people uh The the the why someone would spray bullets into a Catholic school.
with little kids and you know, on the first day during a mass. You're now basically moved into a point where you have so dehumanized the other, you think that if they hold that view, they are not human. or they are not a valuable human and And that includes completely uninvolved and innocent. Children. You know, if they're not human, you can...
them you can take away their loved ones. take away their lives. I mean that That is the an impulse of a civilization that is not healthy. That is, I mean, that goes without saying, right? And it also is, and this is something that I...
Argued in today's breakpoint commentary, today being Friday of this awful, awful week. That there It is a connection. There's not many connections, but there is a connection with the. killing of the Ukrainian woman on the public transport in Charlotte. Zarudska, I think is her lat y Irina Zarudska, I think is her name.
Sirutska. That that video. shocked everyone before the next one did. That's what everyone was talking about. until the assassination of of Charlie Kirk.
Clearly The one who killed Irina Zarudska. I mean, should have been in prison, should have been institutionalized. And that was Awful. It's a terrible thing. And it was just as terrible to see this young woman.
not be helped. No one intervened. No one helped until 90 seconds.
Now, 90 seconds later, someone did. Praise God. It was too late. Ninety seconds is an eternity, and people were right there and didn't. And That's a dehumanizing In other words, Just because we live in a culture that dehumanizes doesn't mean that everyone's going to kill everyone else, but it does mean that there's going to be an incredible level of indifference.
And that's not a new thing. In other words, the the that I don't want to get involved because it doesn't have anything to do with me. I don't want to get involved because that person's not important to me. You know. That's a crisis as well.
That points to a civilizational marker as well. N It is the extreme version of it to say: if you disagree with me, not only should you be a cancel, but you don't have a right. to live. He should be taken off. And I think that's the The question That people are wrestling with.
Is that the cultural moment we're in? Is that the line that's been crossed? And I think the answer in many ways is yes. Where I disagreed with Konstantin Kissin's analysis, although I think he got that right, is that this doesn't have to be inevitable. And I'm not sure he was saying that either.
But Christians never believe that's inevitable. Christians have to understand the moment from the story. Charlie Kirk was exactly right. The way to stop this is to have conversations. The way to stop this?
is to to to stand for the truth. The way to stop this is to not be silenced. And I tell you, There's an am an amazing groundswell of young people in particular that are like They see this event as a calling. A calling to tell the truth, a calling to courage. And there's a video That has also gone a round now again of Charlie Kirk asking what he wants his legacy to be.
And that's what he says, a courageous follower of Christ. Courage? isn't something we talk a lot about in our discipleship classes. There's not a whole lot of books on being a courageous Christian. There are some, I guess.
It's not something that we talk about as an essential of a Christian worldview. As much as we should. It's it's in the Old Testament an awful lot, isn't it? You know? I mean Take courage.
Be courageous. Fear not. And I need to spend some time adding that up. And where does it come from, biblically speaking? I think some of the great.
Ideas about this is that courage is a virtue. Virtues are muscles. Muscles have to be exercised. You know, you don't just decide one day to be courageous, you cultivate courage. I think that's a noble.
Idea in an age like ours. And I don't know if we've crossed that line I know that if we've crossed that line we can go back. The renewal is possible. Talking about renewing Western civilization, maybe, maybe God will allow us to be a part of that. Wouldn't that be awesome?
But we can certainly be agents of renewal and push back. And I think to see that as a calling is the right move. I think to see what happened this week As it the horrible tragedy as it is. as a marker of a cultural moment that it I think it is. but also as a calling.
To to think You don't What am I willing? to say, what am I willing to do? Not that we all go now on college campuses with a white table that says prove me wrong. But the next time we're tempted to be silent, the next time we're tempted to just be irate instead of look the other person and in the eye and have that conversation. You know?
I don't know that we have to have every conversation. But I do know we need to have way more conversations probably than we're having, you know?
Well, John, let's switch gears now and talk about some of the questions that listeners have sent in to us recently. There was one in particular I know impacted both you and I when we saw it come in earlier this week, and I'll just read a little bit of it to you. This is from a woman named Margie. She says all three of her adult children have walked away from the faith, despite that she says they regularly attended church. She did devotions with them.
but she feels she was sometimes inconsistent and the available materials that she had in her home were not robust. She says now it sounds like her three children are now really struggling with their sexuality. One of them is struggling that she's not married and really wants to be. And Margie is feeling really guilty about this. And she's asking how to cope with this guilt, knowing that her adult children are not following the Lord.
Yeah, that was a really heartbreaking thing to read. You just never. When it you know, hear from someone who has that level of of of guilt and shame. And You know, understanding that, you know, parents do have a responsibility to raise their children, but then. The illusion that somehow we can get it all right, you're not going to get it all right.
And Even if you did everything right, There is this thing about kids, and that is that they're their own people, that they have their own level of. freedom and decision making. And, you know, There are these kind of cliches. And clichés are often clichés because they're true. And so, you know, I don't want to say them in a cliché way, but like God doesn't have grandkids, he has kids.
And The other one is is Adam and Eve walked with God, and look how they turned out. They had the direct parenting from God. And that in and of itself is an account of the kind of people. are the kind of creatures humans are. made in God's image with that level of freedom.
Doesn't mean you did everything right. Doesn't mean you didn't do everything right. You trust the Lord. The other thing though that you don't know And I don't know, and no one knows is what part of the story this is for them. And this is why the story, keeping the story in the moment straight, I think is really, really important.
I think about some of the Incredible. Stories in the last part of the Truth Rising film. I'm thinking specifically of Chloe Cole. And I'm thinking of Ayanne Hersi Ali. And at any moment, You could have stopped and said, How are they doing spiritually?
you know, a decade ago. or five years ago. and said. You know, man, this is a disaster. And now you look at him and it's just an incredible thing.
And even if they weren't kind of the national leaders and the articulate defenders of truth that they are. Um Yeah you know just that They're Story is still being and still being written. And that Uh all parents Turn their kids over to God ultimately. And trust God with them. We don't want to because we want to defend the heck out of them in every way possible.
And But this is kind of, I think, for a parent where We have to Ask, is God trustworthy with our kids? Do we trust Him? And I I think that it's a hard, hard place to get to. But shame is not of the Lord. Guilt?
Yeah.
We have no moral guilt, all of us do for all kinds of things. The answer that God provides. is not perfection. It's Christ's perfection on our behalf. It's forgiveness.
It's The idea that Redemption is possible, that forgiveness. is offered. And that's what. your kids need and that's what you need. That's what we all need.
We all need that.
So take courage. Um confess what you need to confess. and reject the accusations of the enemy. Confess what you need to confess. and trust the Lord.
and go back to pointing your your kids to truth every way you can. and trusting their hearts and minds to Him. And that's a hard. I realize that that's an easier thing to say than to do. I realize that that is a it's a brutal place to be to watch this.
But Price can be trusted. here and uh that's where we have to land. And no, no parent's job is ever over, Margie. Still, you have a role to play in your kids' lives, so you. Pray that the Lord would lead them not into temptation and deliver them from evil.
My prayer every morning for my family is that the Lord would keep us, especially keep Aaron and I in him. Because I never want to be deluded to think that You know, we we had all the right materials and we had all the right methods of discipline, and therefore we're not susceptible to turning to the right or to the left, as the proverbs say.
So it's we we just have to give ourselves to the Lord and ask him to keep us. And maybe in Margie's case, to bring us back. But that's always something that's possible, and he's the one to ask for it. There there's just not a magic Perfect way to parent. You know, I know that there are a lot of um Folks who claim that, especially in certain communities, that if you just, you know, dress your kids this way and give them Hebrew names and you know, keep away this and do this.
It just doesn't work that way. It just doesn't. I also have a great parenting story. Just very quickly, I have a really good friend who had a son who was working on his homework. And he said something like, I think this assignment is really stupid.
And his mom did not like that he said that.
So she sent him to his room. And when dad got home, she told dad, please go talk to him. And the dad, as he tells the story, he went to talk to his son and said, You know, these are things that we don't say. You know, you can not like your assignment. And he's just giving him, walking him through this whole thing, and in his mind, Dad is thinking, man, I am killing it.
This is, I am doing so good, right? This is such a great conversation. I'm so glad that I was here to tackle this, whatever. And as soon as he finishes, the son has this pained look on his face. And dad says.
Well, what's wrong? And the son says, Well, now I think that you're being kind of stupid. And it's just the cutest, most honest story all the way around. You can think you're doing a great job. And usually you're not.
But the Lord will help you. You know, I want to bring up another question. This is a question from someone that I was I got to talk to him in person.
So it came in a conversation in Texas this past week. We had a a showing of the Truth Rising film and uh It has been, by the way, incredible to and really moving to hear the responses of people who have seen. The film and are inspired about being a truth teller and being courageous. It's kind of been a lot of fun. continues to get a lot of traction and we're excited about that.
But this was a question that kind of goes back to something we've hit at a couple times. It's not, you know, the conversation really has to do, I think, more deeply with, you know, how do you apply the Bible in areas of immigration? And then there are specific cases as well. And that's what makes it so hard to cover all of this ground. But this.
Uh this uh the uh This person expressed a, shared a Bible passage and asked, is that something that is. uh applicable to the immigration debate and And my answer is always, it's always applicable to everything. I mean, that's the point of Holy Scripture, but you need to understand, like, any.
Sort of teaching is that there are things that are said to specific people in specific contexts, and there are things that are said about people in general. It is always true that people are made in the image. and likeness of God, and therefore have inherent dignity. And so that is something that is widely Applicable across all.
So, any immigration policy that violates the dignity of God, or any criminal justice policy that violates the The dignity of the image of God, any discipline of your own kids that violates the. image of God. You know. You can take that and apply it universally. And then there are commands that go to all people at all times, you know.
Don't be an idolater. That's a pretty common thing. And that's based on universal truth, right? The truth that there is a God and. It ain't that statue and it ain't yourself, right?
And so you can take that and imply it. And so any sort of worship of anything other than God is absolutely wrong. And You know, that's how I think what the Bible says. The problem is, is when we start yanking kind of these little phrases and verses, and we do it and then apply it. A friend of mine says, you know, it's like you drop it out of the story and shoot it ahead 2,000 years and apply it to you, like the David and Goliath story.
You know, David and Goliath is not how to beat the Goliath in your life because there's other stories in the Bible where the giant wins. And God is still on his throne when the giant wins.
So there's something happening. There that's Where which God is articulating something other than you can just, you know, beat all the. Things in your life that you don't like. And being able to read the Bible well is such a critical part of having a. a Christian worldview.
A part of that is allowing Uh, God to speak through scripture, part of that is. Reading the Bible in big chunks, not in bits and pieces, not just, you know, looking for moral McNuggets, but. And also the power of story. I mean, the biblical worldview is at the end of. the day, the biblical story of reality.
And when we know that this is the world we're in. Then we can kind of make the moral judgments that we need to make. I'm not saying it's all easy, especially when you get to kind of political situations. And things like immigration policy, you know, when there is increased risk, there is an increased scrutiny. That that that's not unbiblical.
That's just wise. if that scrutiny is based on a wrong understanding. of what motivates people, then it's going to be ineffective. It needs to be based on the right view. Which is why kind of hyper-racialized or other narratives end up falling apart, you know, in the words of.
Um of my friends, it's just not big enough. It's not a big enough framing. For The kind of questions that we're asking it.
So we have to go back to what's truly it means to be. To be human. I know that doesn't cross all the T's and dot all the I's in terms of the conversation that needs to be had about something as specific as immigration. But really, this is a question I think more fundamentally about How do we know what we know? How do we know truth?
And then how does the scripture and form that and and ground our knowledge. And I hopefully that kind of distinction is helpful. Yeah, definitely.
Well, thank you as always for the questions, everybody. And you can continue to please send those our way. If you go to breakpoint.org and click on contact us, you can send in. And we do see all of those. Um, it's kind of fun to hear from you all, but also to wrestle through those ourselves and then hopefully share.
some insight with you.
So please continue to do that. John, let's talk about some recommendations for the week. I wonder if you could point us in the direction of. You know, you brought up some of the insights from Constantine Kissen, which I was comforted by as well. But if there's something you could point us to that has um Either offered some insight into the events of this week or maybe some comfort.
in moments like this. Yeah, it's a That's a great question. I mean, there's some content from Charlie himself that's worth seeing. The the hard part is is you have to wade through Twitter to find it, and that's not something that people want to do. My recommendation would be do not watch uh the video of the shooting uh if you Have not, don't go looking for it, don't go seeing it.
This is not something that people need to see. I know that's a strange recommendation, but. My recommendation is is in that case is to not. And yet there are you know, other things that I think are worth seeing. It's just been so interesting this week, the number of people either who have posted or shared with me personally, you know, I just didn't.
Didn't know a lot ab about Charlie or Turning Point. I didn't really. like what I thought I knew and then I went and looked at all these and I'm like This was pretty good, actually. And so, you know, there's some of that content that I think is fascinating. You know, I guess I'll I'll say three or four things that I found really.
Helpful. or really moving. The Babylon B. I have long argued that the Babylon Bee is often at its best when it's not posting satire. And Hebrews chapter 11.
The author Gets to the end of this chapter of faith and says, I'm running out of time. I need to tell you about more people, but I don't have enough space. to tell you about and then he goes off and rattles. These people. And what's fascinating about the list is that there is a List of Good things and bad things, you know, that happens.
And the list doesn't break. It's like. I wish I could tell you about the people who, through their faith, conquered kingdoms and raised the dead back to life again. Mothers received back their children and You know, they wrought righteousness is the King James that I remember wrought righteousness. It's a lot of R's.
And then without breaking stride, like it's it's literally in the same list. Others were tortured, others were killed.
Some were sawn in half. The sonnet half one, by the way, is Isaiah. Because that's Yeah. Talk about taking the Bible in context. Isaiah remembers the one that said, Here am I, send me.
Which we always go like, be in Isaiah, here am I send me. You might want to ask. Where did God send him? God sent him to be sawn in half. That's where that story ends.
And then there's this little phrase, and I remember in the King James it was in parentheses, and I don't know why it was in parentheses in the King James, but it literally was in parentheses. Right after that whole list. of whom the world was not worthy. The Babylon Bee posted um Something about Charlie Kirk. Heavenly sources confirm the world was not worthy of Charlie Kirk.
I appreciate that. I thought that was great, not satire. But let me be really, really clear, and I appreciated Turning Point USA's. banner about this, which was I can't imagine having to post that. But let's be really clear about why the world wasn't worthy of Charlie Kirk.
You said, you know, that that is you know his is his Smile is is it You know, his presence, you know, he was attractive. He was smart. He was good at what he did. But as the um Turning Point USA Banner said, He's now in the arms of his Saviour. Who gave his life for Charlie.
And that is why any of us meet that list. That's why on that list and he Hebrews 11. You have people who did good things, you have people who did bad things. Or people who won and people who lost. You have mixed heroes like Gideon, good heavens.
Samson makes that list. Gideon. It's a crazy list. I have such a soapbox about Gideon, that guy. And it is a, that's all on the list, and it's all the same, of whom the world was not worthy.
And I think that's the the reminder. of two things out of this in the recommendation of why I say go to Hebrews eleven. Check out the Babylon Bee post. Check out the turning point. clarification about why Charlie's in the arms of his Savior.
It wasn't because he was a great culture warrior, though he was. It wasn't because he was a great defender of truth, although he was. It was because Christ died for him. And Charlie put his faith in Christ. And that's what the story is about.
The Christ who we put our faith in is the one who has orchestrated history. That's why we have hope, Peter says. It's not wishful thinking. It's a secure. Re re realization.
That Christ is the king. He's the Lord. of heaven and earth. and that our future can is secure, and our future doesn't end. By the decision of an assassination or a bullet, it doesn't end by a disaster or a calamity.
The history Uh culminates. and Jesus Christ making all things new. And that's the story we're part of. That's what drives us.
So, I would say if you really feel as unsettled as so many do. If there is this sense of dread about lines being crossed, which many have. The only way forward is to go back to the story, go back to what is true. and start there. and then let that give you courage.
Be courageous. Keep telling the truth. Have that conversation. Look that person in the eye. and see where it goes.
Trust the Lord with the results. Thanks, John. That is going to do it for our show this week. Thank you so much for listening to Breakpoint This Week. From the Coulson Center for Christian Worldview, I'm Maria Baer, alongside John Stone Street.
We will see you all back here next week. God bless.
