After Hours with Amy Lawrence PODCAST: Hour 2

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That's Stamps.com code PROGRAM. Let's pretend that you are part of the Angels front office. You work for Artie Moreno, who's no longer planning to sell the team, despite the chagrin of many Angels fans.

You haven't seen your team make the playoffs since 2014. Do you trade Shohei Ohtani before the deadline on July 31st? As we hit midnight in Anaheim, saying farewell to the Monday of the home run derby, moving forward into the Tuesday of the all-star game in which Shohei Ohtani will hit, one more reminder of what an international superstar and sensation he is. He spoke on Monday. He says the free agency and the constant questions loom and they weigh on him.

Through his interpreter, he said that. It really does weigh on him. It's the toughest thing about getting ready to play every day, is that there are constant questions and everybody wants an answer, but he doesn't have one. He's just trying to focus on the season. Now, you may not believe him.

You may think he's leaning one way or the other. I like the point that Marco Belletti made last hour, which is that he does have a connection to Anaheim because he picked the Angels originally. He could have gone elsewhere, but he picked Anaheim. He wanted to be there. Does he want to be there and keep that badly enough that he's willing to stay despite them, at least now, being below.500 and not a playoff team.

It's after hours with Amy Lawrence on CBS Sports Radio. 20 days until baseball's deadline. It's a risk if you're the Angels and you don't trade him. We can all acknowledge that because he will be a free agent and you will have less control over the process, far less control over the process.

If you do not trade him, then he can go anywhere that he wants to go. I like everything I know about Shohei Ohtani. I think he's an incredible ambassador for the game of baseball, certainly for the Angels or any team where he ends up. He's got a megawatt smile.

I said that about Julio Rodriguez. He's another young star who when he smiles, and a lot of times he's fairly serious, as you could imagine, he's got double the prep and double the work on his plate. And yet every now and then we see the excitement, the joy with his family, his Angels family. Speaking of family, being away from your family, but when they put on that ridiculous Viking hat for home runs and he goes through the gauntlet there in the dugout, clearly loves the game and enjoys being part of the Angels and part of the MLB family. And who knows, maybe money is not the most important thing to him because he's different culture. Maybe it's not, but he certainly will have upwards of 500 million dollars, maybe multiple offers of at least that much money.

If you're the Angels or you're advising the Angels, would you trade him before the deadline and get as much as you can in return? We've got a poll up on Twitter after hours, CBS, or on my Twitter, A Law Radio, and also the question is up on our Facebook page. Our phone number 855-212-4227, 855-212-4CBS. I have to say thank you, thank you for all of the responses to the two photos that I shared with you on Monday morning and there's a reason, it's a calculated reason, why I chose those two photos. They are part of a blog post that I'm working on this week, but in order to tease you just a bit and because they were too pretty not to share, I shared these two that were my favorites and we put them on our Facebook page as well. So here I'll retweet them again so you can see them.

Again, just a bit of a preview of a special blog post that I have coming up later this week when I have a chance to finish it. And then also on our Facebook page, you can have access to any of our previous interviews and that includes our Angels Insider. So in honor of the question that we're asking you, would you trade him, would you not trade him, before the deadline, this is Jeff Fletcher and when he joined us last week, remember the Angels were still hanging on, they were still above 500. But I was concerned because they were losing players left and right. It was the night that Otani got hit hard by the, was it the Padres? Yeah, he joined us from San Diego. They got hit hard by the Padres. He was pulled out of the game because he had a blister after they used the acrylic to try to fix his cracked fingernail. They also lost Anthony Rendon. And so I was nervous, wondering whether or not they'd be able to hang in there until they got to the break.

And from SoCal News Group, Angels beat writer Jeff Fletcher joined us and I want you to hear what he had to say about the Otani situation. Because they managed to stay part of that AL West race for the first half. What do the Angels actually look like when they're playing their best baseball and they're competitive? You know, on paper, they look like a pretty solid team that's pretty good at everything. Like their starting rotation, they've got, you know, Patrick Sandoval, Reed Detmers were both very good last year and they're both still young.

And then you add Otani on top of that, that's a pretty good top three. This year, Sandoval has not been so good, but still that's the core that should be there. And then Griffin Canning, who missed the year and a half of the back injury, he's come back and he's been pretty good. And Tyler Anderson, who's actually been not very good for most of the year, he was an All-Star last year. So that's a lot of pieces for a good rotation. Their bullpen, you know, Carlos Estevez has been one of the best closers in the league this year.

He also should have been an All-Star. Matt Moore has come back and been pretty good, but he's been hurt. They've, some young guys like Jose Soriano have come back and been pretty good. So they have the pieces for a pretty good bullpen, too. So they've been a pretty good for a pretty good bullpen too. And the lineup, you know, with Otani, Trout, Brandon Drury has been good. Hunter Renfro was good for most of the first half, kind of slumped in the last month or so.

Mickey Moniac, the former number one overall pick, who was kind of slumped with the Phillies. They got him last year in a trade and he's come up and been really good. So you add all this stuff up and, and on paper, they look like they really should be better than they are. And they still could be, you know, if they get guys healthy, you know, all the stuff has gone wrong.

We've talked about in their two games over 500 right now. So they're within range, but they definitely need to, to get some guys healthy and get a good run of, of keeping them healthy and playing some good baseball. For the sake of argument, Jeff, if they drop a little bit or lose a little more ground because of the injuries, how does this impact what they do at the trade deadline?

Well, I mean, the first question is she'll have a tiny question. And I think that, uh, they really do not want to trade him because they, they feel like they want to try to win this year, no matter what. And if they're in striking distance, they want to hang onto him. And they also want to try to resign him after the season.

And so obviously it's a lot easier to do that. If you keep them until the end of the season, and if they do fall back like seven games out of a playoff spot or so, then it starts to get kind of dicey to, uh, take that risk. So we'll, we'll definitely see what happens, uh, as for going the other direction and adding. I mean, I think that's what they would like to do. They would like to probably add a starting pitcher and a reliever maybe. And, uh, you know, who knows, depending which of these position players are hurt when they get to the deadline, uh, that could affect what they need in that sense. They, they do have a lot of position players that can play multiple positions, so they could sort of take anybody who's available and fit them in.

So, uh, that's definitely something that they would look to do. I think if they can play a little better and really show some reason to believe that they, they have the guys there to, to make a good run. It's after hours here on CBS sports radio, the injuries notwithstanding, they've managed to stay part of that AL West race for most of the first half of the season. What do the angels look like when they're playing their best baseball? You know, on paper, they look like a pretty solid team.

That's pretty good at everything. Like they're starting rotation. They've got, you know, Patrick Sandoval, uh, Reid Detmers were both very good last year and they're both still young.

And then you add Otani on top of that. That's a pretty good top three this year. Sandoval has not been so good, but, but still that's the core that should be there. And then Griffin canning who missed the year and a half of the back injury, he's come back and he's been pretty good. And Tyler Anderson, who's actually been not very good for most of the year. He was an all star last year.

So that's a lot of pieces for a good rotation. They're bullpen. You know, Carlos has been one of the best closers in the league this year.

He also should have been an all star. Matt Moore has come back and been pretty good, but he's been hurt. They've some young guys like Jose Soriano have, have come back and been pretty good. So they have the pieces for a pretty good bullpen too. And the lineup, you know, the Otani trout Brandon Drury has been good. Hunter Renfro was good for most of the first half kind of slumped in the last month or so.

Mickey Moniac, the former number one overall pick, uh, who was kind of slumped with the Phillies. They got him last year in a trade and he's come up and been really good. So you add all this stuff up and, and on paper, they look like they really should be better than they are. And they still could be, you know, if they get guys healthy, you know, all the stuff has gone wrong.

We've talked about in their two games over 500 right now. So they're within range, but they definitely need to, to get some guys healthy and get a good run of, of keeping them healthy and playing some good baseball for the sake of argument, Jeff, if they drop a little bit or lose a little more ground because of the injuries, how does this impact what they do at the trade deadline? Well, I mean, the first question has a Shohei Otani question, and I think that, uh, they really do not want to trade him because they, they feel like they want to try to win this year, no matter what. And if they're in striking distance, they want to hang on to him. And they also want to try to resign him after the season.

And so obviously it's a lot easier to do that if you keep them until the end of the season, if they do fall back like seven games out of a playoff spot or so, then it starts to get kind of dicey to, uh, take that risk. So we'll, we'll definitely see what happens, uh, as for going the other direction and adding. I mean, I think that's what they would like to do. They would like to probably add a starting pitcher and a reliever maybe. And, uh, you know, who knows, depending which of these position players are hurt when they get to the deadline, uh, that could affect what they need in that sense. They, they do have a lot of position players that can play multiple positions, so they could sort of take anybody who's available and fit them in. So, uh, that's definitely something that they would look to do.

I think if they can play a little better and really show some reason to believe that they, they have the, the guys there to make a good run. How much does this hang over the heads of the organization? Do you think this looming decision about Ohtani, you mentioned the risk involved, but also this idea that they may lose him if they don't make the playoffs or if they don't finish strong and remain part of the equation in the AL? Well, I think it certainly is a thing that was talked about all the time around the organization. I don't know how much actually within the organization, because I think that if you're general manager, Perry Minasian, you're just thinking, we're keeping him. And, uh, it's not really something that they probably talk about trading him or any of that kind of thing. And they, they hope to, to be able to resign him, but, but certainly everybody else in the baseball world talks about it all the time. And it's certainly a big subject surrounding the angels, even if they're not actually talking about it themselves, it's definitely a story that is not going to go away.

What do you think? Does it come up every day? Every other day? Oh, pretty much every day, especially every time they lose a game, you know, people go crazy. It's like, Oh, that's it. Season's over, great Ohtani. And then they win a couple of games and it's like, Oh, you know, maybe we got a chance, maybe he's going to resign, you know, whatever.

It's quite a roller coaster. Jeff Fletcher joining us from San Diego at the time and giving his informed opinions about how this decision right now is staring the angels in the face. Now he also wrote a book about Shohei Ohtani and his MVP season, which I really want to read from the SoCal news group. You can check out the rest of that conversation, including including his answer to my question of why they haven't made the playoffs since 2014. He called it a nightmare. Why haven't they made the playoffs since then?

And his answer may surprise you, but here's the thing. They could change that aspect of the franchise by trading Ohtani, right? So I'm not going to give it away, but he points to one specific reason that they haven't made the playoffs since 2014.

Of course there have been injuries, but that's not what he points to. And that one factor that he says is the number one reason why they haven't made the playoffs in nearly a decade could change if they actually traded away Ohtani. But we don't know if they're going to do that yet. I say no way. Don't do it.

If there's a snowball's chance in Hades, which I get it, it's very slim. If you can re-sign him at the end of the season, you've got to try. If you know that he's got an open mind, you believe that he will consider you, unless he tells you otherwise, don't trade him.

Maybe he loves Anaheim and wants to finish what he started there. Don't trade him. If you believe you have any shot at bringing him back again, he's worth that.

I wouldn't say that would be the case with every guy, but he's worth that. So our poll question is up on Facebook or our show Twitter after our CBS. And straight ahead, Joe Cronin, the general manager of the Portland Trailblazers. He has a decision to make as well that revolves around trading his best player, though not quite as scary as what the Angels are facing.

They're a little farther down the road, but how long could it take to trade Damian Lillard? Glad to have you with us as we morph from a Manic Monday into a terrific Tuesday. I'm speaking it in... Mountain Dew Zero Sugar asks, ever wonder what it would be like to live in an alternate universe? Well, friends, welcome to the alternate universe of Mountain Dew Zero Sugar. Because even though it says zero sugar right there on the bottle, when you crack one open and try it, the taste is nothing less than outrageously delicious. Hey, transport yourself to an alternate universe with Mountain Dew Zero Sugar. Zero sugar, all dew. Stop by Quality Mart for a refreshingly good deal on Mountain Dew. Get two 20-ounce Mountain Dew's for only $3.50.

Do the Dew It Quality Mart. He's probably being more vocal about that than ever, but I don't look at that as a negative. He's challenging us to get it done, which I think is more than fair, and he's earned that.

This is After Hours with Ernie Lawrence. Portland Trail Blazers General Manager Joe Cronin from June. Because the question was posed to him over and over, what about Damian Lillard? Now in the case of Dame, the player asked for the trade. So at this point, we can't say that about Shohei Ohtani. All indications are that if the Angels do not trade him, that he will test free agency. So the Blazers are a little farther down the road, but the similarities do exist. In the case of both the Blazers and the Angels, we're talking about trading one of the best players in their franchise histories.

In Ohtani's case, we've never seen anything like him. The hole, the capital that you could get in return. But the Angels don't want that, they want to keep him. Now the Blazers were hoping they could walk that road as well. They wanted to keep Damian Lillard. Dame wanted them to put people around him, veteran players, proven talent that could help the Blazers get over the hump and finally win an NBA title.

Dame wanted to win in Portland, that was clear. He stayed when he had chances to leave. It actually dawns on me, even as I'm saying that, what if Ohtani stays? What if he takes a deal and he stays? Because he believes what the franchise tells him about how they want to win, they're going to put pieces around him, they're going to continue to build. And then a few years down the road, nothing's changed.

They still haven't made the playoffs. Let's hope Ohtani isn't following the story of Damian Lillard and thinking about the what ifs. It's after hours with Amy Lawrence on CBS Sports Radio. Yet Joe Cronin acknowledges now that Dame has asked for a trade, yeah, he was mad at the team because they weren't able to put vets around him. It wasn't necessarily intentional, it was just doing what's best for this team and we kept doing that and I could see why, you know, Dame would look at it and say, well, this isn't a win now opportunity as much as, or at least as much of a win now opportunity as some other places.

So from that regard, I mean, I understand his position and I respect it and it makes sense to me why he would look to go elsewhere. Our Blazers insider reminded us that Portland's not a free agent destination. Aaron Fentress from the Oregonian joined us a couple weeks ago and said they haven't had a free agent sign here in decades. It's not a free agent destination, not even with Dame there.

And in the NBA, where everyone plays with his BFF, that wasn't the case with Dame. Once CJ McCollum was gone, he was essentially a lone archer. He was a free agent. He was a free agent. Once CJ McCollum was gone, he was essentially a lone on his island.

Yusef Nurkic, he had a really good year, remember, and then has been hurt a lot. They just haven't been able to acquire veteran talent. They've had different guys go through there to be sure. They've had different guys who have made a brief stop but haven't stayed. And that's been frustrating for Dame. So Joe Cronin understands that, accepts that.

Josh Hart's another example, right, of a player who was kind of briefly there in Portland and then gone. But here is Dame saying, that's it. I've given you enough. 11 years is plenty. It hasn't worked out.

I want to trade. But he's doing the franchise and himself no favors because he's made it very clear he only wants to go to the Miami Heat, which is complicated. It's as complicated as Aaron Rodgers choosing the Jets and telling the Green Bay Packers, that's where I want to go. It's as complicated as the Packers having to make it happen for Aaron Rodgers, knowing they can't keep their disgruntled superstar quarterback.

Totally fine. But he would make life miserable for them and it would be a disaster if they didn't trade him to the Jets. However, they don't want to just give up and get nothing in return, which is why the Packers and the Jets took so long to consummate their deal. This is the situation that Joe Cronin is in right now. Obviously, they know they have to move Dame, but he can't be in a hurry.

He can't get fleeced by the Heat. I think what I've learned more than anything is patience is critical. Don't be reactive. Don't jump at things just to seemingly solve a problem.

I think the teams that have ended up in the most positive situation post-trade have been the ones that have been really diligent and taken their time and not been impulsive or the teams that really kept their urgency under control. So I think that's how my approach has been with this and will be with this. We're going to be patient. We're going to do what's best for our team and we're going to see how this lands. And if it takes months, it takes months. I love that he says we're not going to be in a rush.

We're going to keep our impulses under control. Ultimately, the Blazers are still in the driver's seat. Now, you don't want to start training camp without making this move, I think, or you don't want to go too deep into training camp without making this move because you're reshuffling the deck. You've got a ton of young players.

You need them to get adjusted to one another, acclimated, and start together at the same time. But yeah, it kind of puts you in a bind when your superstar who wants to leave lets the world know I'm only going to the heat. I understand. I mean, I think that obviously is a place that he wants to be and that makes sense for him, you know, as far as the rest of the makeup of the team and all that. As a team, you always hope that, you know, you have more options and to have limited options like that is going to call it frustrating, but it prevents you from, you know, perhaps seeking out the best return. So, you know, it's something we'll have to work through. Is that Joe Cronin admitting that they may not get the best return for Damian Lillard?

Wowzers. That's quite an admission from the Blazers GM. I also think about the Houston Texans and how they were willing to eat an entire year of salary for Deshaun Watson after giving him a fat pHAT, well and FAT, deal. After giving him a sizable contract extension, they ate an entire year of his contract so that they could wait it out and get the best return for him when they finally traded them to Cleveland. And because Cleveland was desperate, they got the haul that they wanted. The Packers waited not as long, but they waited for a couple of months until the Jets gave them a little more of what they were looking for.

Bums. How long will Joe Cronin wait? And honestly, you may say he is not dealing in reality, but he's not giving up on the idea of a reunion. The goal is always to have Damian as a Trailblazer.

It always was and always will be. I mean, we wanted him to retire a Trailblazer, so we're very open-minded to anytime Damian wants to be a part of us. Hmm. Okay. I'm saying your chances are slim to none, but you're saying there's a chance. What did I say earlier? There's a line from Pirates of the Caribbean that I absolutely love.

No cause is lost if there is but yet one fool willing to fight for it. So you're telling me there's a chance? Yes, that is no. I'm not telling you there's a chance. With Otani, yes. With Damian Lillard, no.

But that's the question for tonight. And maybe view it through the lens of Damian Lillard, who stuck around even when the Blazers didn't meet their goals and when they weren't making progress or becoming more of a contender in the West. They spun their wheels for a lot of years and he stayed for a lot of years. And certainly they were part of the playoffs.

They just never could bust through that glass ceiling. In light of that, if you're the Angels, would you trade Shohei Otani? You could get a lot for Shohei.

Or do you keep him and take the risk that you're going to lose him for nothing? That is the question. So on Twitter, ALawRadio, on our Facebook page too, hope you enjoyed the home run derby. No Shohei in the home run derby, but he will be hitting in the All-Star game on Tuesday. We've got the starters as well, so we'll get to that at the top of next hour. Did you follow the story the last couple days about Northwestern football and head coach Pat Fitzgerald? We'll talk about that.

We'll dive into that coming up next. It's After Hours with Amy Lawrence, you Mountain Dew Zero Sugar asks, ever wonder what it would be like to live in an alternate universe? Well, friends, welcome to the alternate universe of Mountain Dew Zero Sugar. Because even though it says zero sugar right there on the bottle, when you crack one open and try it, the taste is nothing less than outrageously delicious. Alternate universe with Mountain Dew Zero Sugar. Zero sugar, all dew. Stop by Quality Mark for a refreshingly good deal on Mountain Dew. Get two 20-ounce Mountain Dew's for only $3.50.

Do the Dew It Quality Mark. You're listening to the After Hours Podcast. It's After Hours with Amy Lawrence. Wherever you are, day, night, I don't care if it's dark or light, we're gonna have fun tonight.

In 1984, Grandmaster Flash came out with a song called White Line. It's a really good song that would fit you. What's it about? Cocaine. I think I prepped a little differently than you have. I went to the liquor store and bought two bottles of wine.

I don't think the boss is gonna allow us to have those in studio. First thing I gotta apologize to you for the deal about Sturgis. Bobby with the Harley, who threatened to kidnap me on the air. Yes, got it.

White Kitten Box couldn't take anything higher than you sitting on top of that bike. Okay, let's not go back down that path again. Might I even say that you are amazing. This is After Hours with Amy Lawrence. Thanks for hanging out with us. If you are working, dealing with insomnia, maybe we give you insomnia. In fact, you don't want to sleep now because the show is so compelling.

I'm not sure I can say that with a straight face. If you fall asleep listening to the show, that's okay too because if sleep is what you need, you are talking to the right person. I'm always about getting sleep when and however you need it.

Or if you're driving cross-country-ish like my friend Gretchen. Hello Gretchen. We're happy to keep you company that way too. It's After Hours with Amy Lawrence on CBS Sports Radio. We'll get back to baseball all-star festivities at the top of the hour and also coming up next hour, an incredible story. A red, white, and blue story, if you will, across the pond at Wimbledon. Yeah, we've got a few Americans that are still surviving, which makes me happy, but one story that comes out of nowhere.

My favorite kind in sports. Although even as I say that, over the past couple weeks, the story that's come out of nowhere and is developed rapidly and unfolded in a stunning way is this firing of Pat Fitzgerald at Northwestern. Longtime football coach, now out of a job, even though they had just signed him recently to a very large contract extension. He's been there for a couple of decades in some form or another, and the university started investigating claims of hazing going back to January. So commissioned an investigation and a report, and ultimately the school concluded.

So this goes back to last week. The school concluded, based on the investigation, that there was not enough evidence that Pat Fitzgerald and his staff knew about any hazing taking place in the program. So again, the investigation that was commissioned by the school, going back to January, we're talking about six months ago now, it found that there were opportunities for the coaches to know what was going on, but that there was no actual evidence that they did know about the hazing. So we're talking splitting hairs.

Splitting hairs. Didn't know about it more than likely, but there were chances and opportunities that they could have known about it. And this is why, initially anyway, the school president spared Pat Fitzgerald's job. I'm not even sure if you heard about the fact that he got suspended without pay for two weeks. In the middle of the summer, most coaches are on vacation now anyway, and he got suspended for two weeks without pay on Friday.

Hmm. Maybe you had the Northwestern president and athletic department modeling the NFL with its Friday news dumps, because it was barely a ripple on the sports scene. You're back in the dumpers again.

Oh dear. It's After Hours with Amy Lawrence here on CBS Sports Radio. That was Friday. Saturday, it all changed again. Here's Chris Venini from the Big Ten Network on the timeline that had a bunch of very rapid twists and turns.

Incredibly bizarre process from the beginning. I would imagine most college football fans forgot this probe even started back in January. And then the news drops on Friday of a two-week unpaid suspension at the moment when every coach is on vacation.

And that didn't seem to square with what the vague summary was saying. If it was widespread knowledge, if the accusations were largely backed up, why was the penalty so soft? Then the Daily Northwestern reports some of the details on Saturday, and it blows up from there. And to go from two weeks unpaid suspension to firing one of the most beloved people in the history of the school without any real new evidence that it was a two-week unpaid suspension, that it was a two-week unpaid suspension. Without any real new evidence coming out, at least from the school side, is remarkable.

And it's a complete 180. And they probably made the right decision in the end, but it makes you question why the decision was made as it was on Friday and why it was kind of put out there in a way to kind of hope people wouldn't notice it. Well, I think Chris Venini answered his own question on the Big Ten Network.

Why was it put out there on Friday the way that it was? Well, it was because Northwestern was likely hoping that they could avoid having to fire Pat Fitzgerald and get away with this soft penalty, this soft discipline, and that it would just quietly fade into the background. Except that's not what happened, because on Saturday, the Daily Northwestern published a story in which there were details listed reportedly from a former Northwestern football player who actually described instances of hazing and sexual abuse. That's why the about-face journalism, but student journalism, the Daily Northwestern with details that the school president either could no longer ignore or couldn't afford to sweep out of the rug. And so then the university president fires Pat Fitzgerald and said, quote, he may have erred in weighing the appropriate sanction.

In other words, his discipline was too soft, and he admits. I was focused too much on the report and not enough on what Pat Fitzgerald should have known, right? So the report indicating that there was no evidence that Fitzgerald knew what was happening, but he should have. And ultimately, that's the conclusion that the university president landed on after the report in the Daily Northwestern.

And so then the report came out of the report and I can only imagine the kind of weekend that this president had. Oh my gosh, Michael Schill is his name, and he'd written multiple letters now to the community to try to explain his actions and then the reversal. Think about the board of trustees, the boosters, football supporters, maybe even talk to some players, all the input that he was getting and had to make this decision.

He does say that these decisions were his, so he's not passing the buck to anyone else. So Fitzgerald's been fired, though, is planning legal action. And this has been in a pretty stunning and rapid descent there at Northwestern.

I think even initially when the probe was announced, that's what Chris calls it a probe, the investigation was announced. Not that people didn't take it seriously, but Pat Fitzgerald is known for being a high character guy. Not necessarily kept around because of how well they competed in the Big Ten in football.

No, I mean they have very high academic standards and they've a lot of times operated at the basement of the conference, but Pat Fitzgerald had such a long tenure there and was so well respected that they didn't want to let him go. And that part I understand, except that you can't ignore hazing allegations of this magnitude. And we know hazing is in some cases not just against school rules and conference rules, but against the law, depending upon what it is.

There have been occasions in the past, I can remember in the past 20 years, where it became no longer acceptable to haze and as I say became against school and conference rules across the country, but also in which you've had crimes filed or charges filed, criminal charges filed or lawsuits filed. And we're talking about forced participation. So these football players had no choice. It's not like they could opt out of it if they were uncomfortable. And any time that there is a sex act or sex abuse or anything that has to do with that type of forced hazing around sexual abuse or sex acts, there should be action taken. Hazing ultimately was about what, welcoming new people into the club, maybe toughening them up.

I'm using my air quotations. These types of incidents and sexual abuse, sexual assault, they're not jokes. And they're not initiating people into clubs. No, they're causing trauma that can last a lifetime. Whether it's a girl, whether it's a boy, regardless of the age, it's not a game. Again, you're talking about acts that can stick with a human being for the rest of their lives.

And in many cases, change the course of the rest of their lives. And whether or not Pat Fitzgerald knew, well, maybe that remains his secret. But he should have known. He should have made sure this wasn't happening on his watch.

It's after hours, CBS Sports Radio. For 25 years, Stamps.com has made mailing and shipping easy. All you need is a computer and printer. Imagine mailing and shipping right from your desk, right from your desk, anytime.

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