Interview with Garry Ingraham

TNG Radio, where today's culture and timeless truths come together.

It's reasoned relevant content apologetics, worldview, and answers to the questions that you need to know. From Alex McFarland Ministries, this is Truth for a New Generation Radio. And now the man who preached in 50 states in 50 days, speaker, writer, and advocate for Christian apologetics, Dr. Alex McFarland. One of the most well-publicized issues in the media in recent years, and frankly one of the volatile issues that the Church has grappled with in recent decades, is the issue of human sexuality. And the Houston Chronicle recently reported that there are 700 cases of sexual abuse that have been reported within the Southern Baptist Church in recent years, some of them going back two decades but only just now being reported. And so the Church of Jesus Christ, the body of Christ, that is to preach the Gospel to every nation, we are to live the Gospel and invest our lives here on this earth in Christ's Great Commission, making disciples of every nation. That's Matthew 28, 18-20. But I believe in this generation, one of the issues that the body of Christ must speak to, and speak to effectively, and one of the issues that we've got to familiarize ourselves with and be an area of ministry, is the area of human sexuality and sexual sin. Or we could say sexual brokenness.

And of course there is the issue of homosexuality that has been front page news for a number of years. And I've got the privilege, as you hear this, I'm recording from a conference in Minneapolis, Minnesota, the HOPE 2019 Conference. Our colleague and friend Ann Palk has a ministry, Restored Hope Network.

Ann and I, as you may know, we go back to the focus on the family days. We work together for James Dobson. And I'm here with one of her colleagues, Gary Ingram. Gary, in what way is the work that you do connected with the Restored Hope Network and really ministry about the issue of homosexuality? Well, after being a pastor for 12 years at a large church in upstate New York, I founded a ministry called Love and Truth Network, which focuses on equipping pastors in the church on how to develop environments in their churches and in our Christian organizations that are both safe but also transformational in all of these areas of sexual brokenness. And so that ministry is a member ministry of Restored Hope Network. And then I also, on a part time basis, lead another organization called Transforming Congregations, which is nearly identical to Love and Truth Network, but it's focused within the United Methodist Church.

And that's also a member ministry of Restored Hope Network. And if you know much about the United Methodist Church, these issues have been front and center topics of just a lot of division and difficulty within the church around human sexuality and LGBTQ issues. And, you know, I think for a lot of people, maybe a lot of lay people, and certainly some pastors that I know, and definitely many academics that I know, there's the assumption that the issue of homosexuality is settled.

I mean, look, as one person said to me, you know, just lay off. I mean, look, this issue has already been decided. We know what the church and the Bible might have said for hundreds of years, but it's a new day.

It's a new day. And so we're just not going to view that as a sin anymore. Give me your response to that line of thinking that somehow truth has changed and sin has been declassified.

Gary, what do you say to that? Well, I would say, first of all, there's been a lot of time and a lot of money thrown at trying to prove that homosexuality is immutable, that it's genetic. That idea has never been proven. Also, even a lesbian researcher by the name of Lisa Diamond has really done a great deal of extensive research that shows that there's a great deal of sexual fluidity of people moving actually in and out of homosexuality or even transgenderism.

So that idea that is scientifically proven is completely false. And also what I would say is a man who comes out of homosexuality and has had hundreds and hundreds of conversations with people who have also been on a journey out of homosexuality, both men and women. My wife and I have had these conversations. What I would say for myself and for so many of them have expressed the same thing.

Please don't lower the bar for us. You know, we need to be called to repentance like everybody else is called to repentance. And when we're sold a gospel that does not include repentance, we're not being told the true gospel. We're buying into a false gospel. And there are many Christian leaders who are doing this, and I absolutely believe it is out of the best of intentions, but you're actually misleading us and selling us a bill of goods that's not actually truth.

I'm so glad to hear you say that because, you know, think about it. I mean, if we give people a message that might for the moment seem comforting but is going to contribute to their lostness, you know, friends don't let friends go to hell. I mean, if I love my neighbor, I'm going to do my utmost to try to prevent them from missing salvation. So speak to a church that tries to sanitize the gospel for the 21st century.

What are we doing if we do that? Well, there are a couple things. What I think of when you ask that question are churches that a number of a decade ago or maybe two decades ago really started to pick up on this idea of being seeker-sensitive churches. And in and of itself, I get that. And I think that if you do that carefully, that can be done well, and it's not only well-meaning, but it's effective. But I think many churches have embraced that idea of being seeker-sensitive, and what we're doing is actually we're kind of presenting a bait-and-switch in a sense. Like, we're presenting something that's not truly authentic. We're trying to make people feel as comfortable as they possibly can coming in, but the truth is most of the time churches are not ever switching the message. I mean, they're not inviting people in and then asking them or inviting them to really come to know Jesus and surrender their lives. Rather, the whole message of the gospel gets watered down. The discipleship process tends to get watered down. And over time, what I've seen is churches who want to embrace, whether it's the LGBT community or just embrace the community around them in general in a hyper seeker-sensitive way, the community is not moving toward the church. The church winds up moving toward the community.

And over time, an authentic message is lost, and it becomes more of simply a gathering place than a place where transformation actually happens in people's lives and true discipleship happens. Stay tuned. When we come back, we'll pursue more of this topic on today's edition of Truth For a New Generation Radio. An evangelical storyteller sharing of how God saw her through the dark days of war. One night after speaking at an event, that prison guard walked up to the stage where Corey was. He said he had become a believer and needed to ask her for forgiveness. It wasn't easy, and there were tears in her eyes, but she forgave the man because the man Jesus had forgiven her. The guard asked for forgiveness and was blessed.

And when Corey extended forgiveness, she was blessed. And we will be too as we follow the example set for us by Christ. Be bold, be faithful, be a watchman. I am a watchman.com 1 Peter 3.15 tells us to be ready always to give an answer for the hope we have.

We're instructed to be prepared to defend our faith. This is Alex McFarland for the Life Answers teams, students we train at North Greenville University, a leading Christian college in South Carolina. The Life Answers teams are made up of students who will inspire and equip your congregation. These apologetics teams we train speak in churches to youth groups and train Christians of all ages to address key issues of our times from a biblical perspective. Like, is there a God?

Is the Bible true? What about gender and moral issues? Call me at 864-977-2008 and we will arrange for the Life Answers team to come to your church and give a presentation that will benefit your people for years to come. 864-977-2008 and always be ready. The TNG Unashamed Conference is coming to Richmond, Virginia, October 11th and 12th. Experience core truths that make for an unshakable faith with Tina Marie Griffin, Todd Starnes, Kamal Shalim, Miki Addison, Chuck Chrismeyer, and William Federer.

Romans 1-16 says, I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation to everyone who believes. Come to the Truth for a New Generation Conference and get equipped, empowered, and inspired to confidently share the gospel of Jesus Christ. TNG is committed to impacting our nation for Christ and the future and equipping you to be a Difference Maker. Register now by calling 877-YES-GOD-1.

That's 877-YES-GOD and the number 1. Or visit the TNG website at truthforanewgeneration.com. The TNG Unashamed Conference, Richmond, Virginia, October 11th and 12th.

Dive deeper into your faith. In the midst of a culture obsessed with relativism, Alex McFarland is a voice you can trust to speak the timeless truths of Christianity in a timely way. You're listening to Truth for a New Generation Radio.

Welcome back to TNG Radio. Alex McFarland here at the HOPE 2019 Conference. My guest here, Gary Ingram, is a board member. Do they do this every year, and if so, where? Yeah, we do this every year, the HOPE Conference with Restored Hope Network.

It's our seventh one this year, and we actually move it around the country trying to make it as accessible for various people in various parts of the country as we can. In the first segment you alluded to that you and your wife both came out of the homosexual lifestyle. What circumstances brought you to the point of changing direction? Well, I just went through a season early on in my life of just being so fed up with the church, having grown up in the church, angry with God, because he wasn't showing up and doing what I felt he needed to do to kind of fix things.

I didn't have any understanding growing up about what I was experiencing or where some of the root causes were coming from. The reality is, to say it in the simplest form, we're broken in relationship and we're made whole in relationship. And so often we're broken in relationship and we want God just to sort of pull out his magic wand and poof, you know, take it away. And that's not how he works.

He works through his church to repair and restore what has been broken. How did your wife come out and how did you and she meet? So my wife, Melissa, was involved in a number of sexual relationships. She had three, I think, long term relationships with young men growing up. She had a real gap in her life with regard to her own father and a divorce and just a lot of emptiness in relationship to him. And she was looking for a lot of that in these other relationships. And then later on in college, she was simply asked by a friend of hers as she was actually engaged to be married to a man. And the closer she was getting to this wedding, the more miserable she was feeling and she was doing great in school and everything was going for her.

But she was just becoming more and more depressed. And this friend said, well, have you ever thought about dating so and so and so and so was a was a girl that they both knew. And it just she had never thought of that before, never had entertained it, never was drawn that way. And it just opened up a door and they went to a gay bar. One thing led to another. And she wound up striking up a relationship with this woman and for my wife, Melissa, when she got into this relationship, she felt like it was such a powerful feeling.

It felt like this is what I've been looking for my whole life. And then it wasn't that many months after they started dating that that this woman broke up with her. And all Melissa describes it as all the weight of all of those broken relationships with men and everything really just came crashing down on her and her identical twin sister, who's never struggled with lesbianism. Her identical twin sister had come to know the Lord a couple of years before and invited my wife to an Urbana conference.

And it was at that conference that Melissa said yes, it was at that conference that she came to know Jesus. It's notable that you say her identical twin sister, who is not a lesbian. Elaborate on that if you would, why that is a significant point.

Sure. So I say that simply because we know that there are a number of twin studies that have been done and twin studies have been part of the research that's been done to try to prove the homosexuality is somehow immutable genetically. And actually, twin studies show the opposite. It shows that while there's a larger percentage of the population where one sibling will identify as gay when the other one does, a larger percent than the average population. It's still the numbers are so low that if it was inborn in any way, shape or form, it should be way up in the upper 90 percentile, if not 100 percent of the time. And so what that really indicates to me as I look at that is there is far more going on in terms of environmental factors like both siblings are experiencing the same dynamics at the same age, at the same developmental age as the other. And so therefore, I think it tips the scales in them experiencing and then relating to those things in a similar fashion, which would explain the higher percentage than the average population.

But it's nowhere near what it should be to actually show a correlation to something genetic. Gary, I think you and I both would agree that people that experience same-sex attraction and then embrace that lifestyle probably are led that way as a response to pain. And none of us want to suffer.

None of us want to be in pain. And when we think we have an option for a better day, you know, that's human nature to try to go there. But the deeper people get into this, does the gay lifestyle heal the pain? Does the gay lifestyle fill the void in our soul that some people feel?

Well, I would say in the short term, part of the power of it is in the short term, it feels like it does. And so therefore, that's part of the nature and the draw toward it. But no, ultimately, I think you're absolutely right, it is oftentimes a response to pain. My wife and I really believe that when you look at attachment theory, and that that kind of explains a lot, attachment is a huge issue for what develops in someone's life in terms of same-sex attraction and other areas of brokenness too.

So, but ultimately, when Paul says in 1 Corinthians 6 18, that every other sin that a man commits is outside the body or woman, but the one who sins sexually, sins against their own body. I began to feel that when I shortly after I came out, and it felt euphoric for a couple of years, leaving Bible college and saying, God, I hate you, and I'm just done with this. And then after living in this for a couple of years, I really began to experience really the decay of my soul.

I began to experience this internal rottenness and this internal decay. And it was that that began to show me that this is not what I signed up for. This is not what I thought it would be.

It's anything but gay. And yet there is a power that held on to me. A couple of things. One is I believe that if I gave this up, that I was going to grow old and be alone for the rest of my life, which obviously is a total joke.

I have two young boys. I'm married. I travel around for ministry.

I have a number of amazing relationships. And so Satan wanted me to believe that lie and stay in that life. And then the second lie that I believed also was that this generalized if they only knew you, they would want to have nothing to do with you with regard to the church.

Again, a lot of that was true for me growing up. But there's a church that's called the church and then there's the church that's the authentic church. And God brought me to a church that was authentic. And it was really the men in that church that didn't know exactly what to do with me by a long shot, frankly. But they knew their own depravity. They knew their own tendency towards sexual sin. And they put their arms around me and welcomed me into their men's group and and said, you belong with us and we want you here. Well, I'd never heard those words in a community of men outside of the LGBT community in my whole life, even though I grew up in the church.

So those were very powerful experiences. So ultimately, no, I don't believe that homosexuality for those that God is calling out of that place into his kingdom. It does not satisfy.

And it's a pathway that leads toward death as any other sin does. Hey, this is TNG radio. Alex McFarland here.

We're talking with Gary Ingram. And stay tuned, because when we return, we're going to ask some questions. If you're a parent and your child has come out, how do you react if you're a Christian and somebody you care about is is struggling with same sex attraction? Or maybe even if you yourself are asking, you know, can I trust that there's a God that loves me and will receive me and forgive me?

Take me as I am. Dare I believe that God has a plan for me? Stay tuned.

You don't want to miss this next segment on TNG radio. If you're a Christian parent, you, of course, want to instill a biblical view of life in the hearts of your children. If you're a pastor, you want to offer ministry that draws young families to your church. This is Alex McFarland encouraging you to check out my new book and video curriculum, The 21 Toughest Questions Your Kids Will Ask About Christianity. Why do bad things happen? I interviewed hundreds of children, ages 5 to 12, and we address actual questions from actual children, the spiritual issues that are on the minds of your kids.

Did Jesus ever sin? The book and video lessons are great for groups of any size and was produced with the goal of equipping kids to stand strong for Christ in any situation. The 21 Toughest Questions Your Kids Will Ask, the book, study guide and video series. You'll find it at AFASTORE.net. That's AFASTORE.net. There's been some confusion between the title of Engage Magazine and the term engaged. Alyssa, would you marry me? Oh, Todd. See, now that's what I mean. Engage Magazine is a ministry to millennials, while getting engaged is- Oh, Todd. Oh, Alyssa. Right. The thing is, we want you to be engaged. Yes, yes, a thousand times, yes.

That's sweet. But Engage Magazine is about being engaged with your faith in the culture. Visit EngageMagazine.net. At Liberty University, you'll earn more than a degree. You'll earn the satisfaction of seeing what you can accomplish and what God can accomplish through you.

Choose from more than 600 degree options from an associate to a PhD and study 100% online more affordably than you think. Discover God's truth through every degree at Liberty University, where we train champions for Christ. Go to Liberty.edu backslash explore to learn more.

That's Liberty.edu backslash explore to learn more. Welcome back to Truth for a New Generation Radio as we resume our conversation with Gary Ingram. I do want to remind you, we have two big conferences coming up, one in Richmond, Virginia, one in Cincinnati, Ohio. In October, we're going to be in Richmond, Virginia, with people like Todd Starnes and so many of the great speakers you've come to know and love. Abe Hamilton from the American Family Association. Great music, great content, a life-changing weekend that's going to be October 11 and 12, Richmond, Virginia.

And then in November, and this is a great way to kind of wrap up the year right before Thanksgiving, November 15-16, we'll be in Cincinnati, Ohio. Great speakers, people like Josh McDowell and so many others. We're going to talk about God. How do I defend that God exists? And the Bible.

Can I defend that the Bible is true and trustworthy? And then moral issues. One of our speakers is Ryan Baumberger of the Radiance Foundation. Probably the most powerful pro-life speaker you'll ever hear. Look, it's for all ages, and young people, you need to be equipped to stand strong for your faith.

Oftentimes, school and the academic environment, the campus are shark-infested waters. And if you don't know your stuff, you're going to really have a struggle standing strong, being a witness for Christ. Moms and dads, leaders, pastors, you don't want to miss Truth for a New Generation as we get equipped and we rise to the challenge of 1 Peter 3.15, and we're ready to give an answer. You can find complete information at our website, truthforanewgeneration.com, truthforanewgeneration.com, or my own personal website, which is merely my name, alexmcfarland.com. Well, we're talking with Gary Ingram, and Gary, I appreciate the ministry you do and appreciate all your investment in Restored Hope and how God is using you. Let's get practical a little bit. No doubt there are moms and dads listening, and they—because we get these emails, and, you know, TNG is not primarily a ministry dealing with the subject of homosexuality, but several times a week, we get the emails.

Alex, help us. My son, daughter, college kid, teenager has just come out. They think they're transgender.

They think they're gay. Talk to the parents. What do you do when your child comes to you and gives this bombshell that they've embraced homosexuality or transgenderism? So what I always encourage parents with is those first moments of revelation can be a big deal, and parents may be listening to this, and they already either did respond really well to the news or they feel like I didn't respond very well to it whatsoever, and there's still opportunity to recover from that. So a parent's desire, understandably so, and I put my parents through hell over this issue, but a parent's desire, understandably so, is to rescue their child, to see their child, to hope that this is a phase that they're going through, and oftentimes that's not the case. But what I would say to the parent is God has something profound in this for you as well.

This isn't just about your child. There's a spiritual journey that you're going to go on, and there's an agony that you're going to face in some ways maybe greater than anything you've ever faced before or different than you've ever faced before. And in that suffering, there's a refining, and there's a preparation that God is doing in your life as well, and try not to miss that as you are swallowed up in or can be swallowed up in just focusing on your child's needs. So the other thing I would say is it's so essential and so important that we not become weary and well-doing. And in this case, oftentimes we are on our knees praying for our child, agonizing over them, and yet when it stretches out to six months and it becomes a year and it becomes six years, we can over time become discouraged and weary. What I encourage parents to do as soon as they possibly can is find a group, and if there's not a group that you're aware of in your area, start a group for other parents dealing with similar things. And it's not difficult to do. We always love to be a resource for parents starting groups.

They can contact me at loveintruthnetwork.com, and I'd be happy to provide information for them about some very simple and basic ways they can support one another and really be there for the long haul in each other's lives. You know, we've seen the mainstreaming of homosexuality around the world. I mean, Pride Days, Pride Month. This has pervasively impacted the corporate world. I mean, is there a hope, Gary, that the world will ever go back to a point where heterosexual monogamy is seen as normative? You know, I suppose that there's always the hope for that, but ultimately what I believe is in that environment over the course of generations, the church tends to get kind of fat and lazy around some of those issues. And so I think part of what's happening with us in our culture now is we are being more refined. The church is actually—the church itself is being refined. There are those that are even falling away from orthodoxy and it's becoming more obvious. In the midst of this, there is a profound field of harvest that we have right now and is going to only increase because eventually, you know, the chickens are going to come home to roost, as they say, and people who bought into the lie that sexual freedom, apart from God's design, actually is freedom. They're going to find out that it's actually bondage. Many of them will begin to admit that, begin to understand that, and what a wonderful thing if churches can be prepared to actually receive people who are broken and lost, people who have even gone through the process of a partial transition or full transition, trying to change themselves from a woman to a man or vice versa, and they recognize this was not the right road.

Like, what do I do? Well, they are kicked to the curb by the trans group. Nobody wants them in that community any longer when they recognize that this was never right for me. But if churches are not prepared, how do you receive someone like that in who has literally mutilated their body and now wants to find—wants to become congruent with God's original design for them? But where do they go to be loved and supported in that process? The church needs to be that place, and it's not an easy road. We need to get prepared for that.

We're just about out of time, but let me say this. There might be somebody listening, and they're struggling with sexual sin in their own life, and they're thinking, you know, if I go this way, this will do it for me. I'll feel fulfilled. Give us a word from the Lord, from Scripture, for the person who is at a crossroads.

Do I trust God, or do I follow my temptations? Give us a closing word, Gary. Well, the word that I guess would come to my mind the most would be in 1 John 1.7, where it says, If we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of His Son cleanses us from all sin. That's a powerful verse that talks about authentic community and transparency that, frankly, is not present to this degree in most churches. And so what I say to the person who's struggling with sexuality, struggling with gender identity issues, part of that, a huge part of that, foundational part of that, is broken relational issues. And we need to find community. We need to find places where we can be authentic and real and open and honest about what we're struggling with.

And if we follow the prescription of Scripture, James 5 16 being another one, which when we confess our sins to one another and pray for one another that we might be healed, God's prescription for healing really is confession and community, and we need those, and we need relationship and those kinds of communities in our lives to break the power of the addiction of sin and confusion regarding identity. Gary, thank you. And folks, thanks for listening. Thanks for praying. Thanks for supporting Truth For a New Generation. That's 877-YES-GOD-1.

That's 877-YES-GOD and the number 1. Or give online at AlexMcFarland.com. While you're there, listen to program archives, read Alex's blog, invite Alex to speak at your event, or contact Alex with a question or comment. AlexMcFarland.com. Thanks for listening today and join us again next time as we bring you more truth for a new generation on TNG radio.