Greg Laurie and Lee Strobel: The Case for Heaven, Part 2

Today's episode of A New Beginning is brought to you by Harvest Partners, helping people everywhere know God.

Learn more at harvest.org. And while you're there, browse our library of free ebooks designed to help you grow in your faith. We're glad you're along with us today. For a new beginning, Pastor Greg Laurie has invited a friend of his into the studio today for a fascinating discussion. Our guest is New York Times bestselling author Lee Strobel. As you may know, Lee is a former atheist and at one time was the legal editor for the Chicago Tribune.

He's trained in both the law and investigative journalism. And he's written a new book that we want to talk about called The Case for Heaven. Now, Lee, what did you believe about the afterlife as an atheist way back then? Like a lot of atheists, I believed that it was like the light going out in a refrigerator.

You close the door in the refrigerator, the light goes out. I thought you just ceased to exist. And just as you didn't exist for millions of years before you came into being, now that your life is over, you just cease to exist forever. And that is actually a very frightening thought. I mean, there were nights as an atheist when I would stare up into the blackness and say, really?

Is this it? I mean, when I die, life just goes on, unchanged in this world. And I just am snuffed out forever. It's a frightening thought.

And the thing about it is, you know what? As an atheist, I was willing to accept it if it were true. As difficult it is to deal with it, if that is true, I got to accept it and learn to live with it. Fortunately, it's not true. Fortunately, the greatest news about heaven is that it's real. And the worst news about hell is that it's real. So the afterlife is real.

It is a reality. And so I think the evidence, as I present in this book, points powerfully and persuasively toward the fact that there is an afterlife. And so I hope people read it and get encouraged and realize that, as Greg often will say, where we end up spending eternally is dependent on how we respond to this offer from Jesus Christ of forgiveness and eternal life as a free gift of His grace. You know, I think God's pre-wired us to long for something more. The Bible says that God has said eternity in our heart.

And we don't know what that something more is, or to be specific, that someone more. But we think, oh, it's a little kid, it's a new friend, it's a new bike, you get a little bit older, and it's a wife, it's a husband, it's a career, you get a little bit older, it's retirement, it's security, financially, etc. And then you keep moving forward and you find out that's not it. And I was thinking when I was a little boy, I was like 16 years old, I would lay, I would be awake at night, and I believed what you believed, that I would cease to exist. And it freaked me out. I thought, how can I cease to exist?

Because there was that kind of that pre-wiring that there's more. And that was a search. And of course, ultimately, I came to the same conclusion you came to.

I wasn't the legal editor of the Chicago Tribune, I was just a confused teenager. But I found the same answer that you found, Lee, in a relationship with God through Jesus Christ. And so that's the great, he gives us, he takes us from hopelessness to hope.

Yeah, exactly. And what you said is so true, Ecclesiastes talks about God is planning eternity in our hearts. And the Hebrews there is a little confusing. But, you know, where I see this illustrated in the life of non-believers, is they try to somehow achieve immortality apart from God. And so they want to write the great novel that is going to carry their name on after they die. They're going to design a cathedral, they're going to paint a painting, they're going to put their name on the side of a building, they're going to give to a hospital and have a wing of the hospital named after them.

That way, I'll live on. Some are motivated to do evil things. Mark David Chapman said he murdered John Lennon because he wanted a piece of his fame. And so he was motivated by negative things to try to live on.

He wanted a piece of that fame. Interestingly, some people have large families, partially because they want their name carried on into history, the family name to continue. And yet, if you ask the average person, what was the name of your great-great-grandparents? They don't know. They don't, I don't know.

The names of my great-great-grandparents. And then if they do know, you say, but do you care? No, I don't care. The thing is with, you know, if there is no God, then these vain quests for immortality amount to nothing. They amount to nothing.

The amount of your DNA, which will continue on into future generations, gets smaller and smaller and smaller, so that in a few generations, there's not enough to fill the mosquito. So, you know, apart from God, there is no hope, as you say. And yet with God, there is hope. And what excites me as a guy who tends to be rational and illogical, respond to evidence is, you know, this is not wishful thinking. It's not make-believe. It's not fairy tales. It's not mythology.

This is based on solid data. And I cite data from the Bible. I cite data from outside the Bible to say that there is good evidence that we do indeed live on forever in one place or another. So if you want to know more about what Lee is addressing here, you want to get a copy of his brand-new book called The Case for Heaven, and we'll send it to you for your gift of any size this month. Lee, let me ask you, we would expect non-Christians to have alternate views of the afterlife, but what percentage of Christians have an accurate biblical view of heaven in the afterlife?

Yeah, that's a great question. I can't give you a specific number, but I can tell you that there's a lot of confusion, there's a lot of misinformation, and part of it is that, you know, we have to understand, you know, the Bible says, no eye is seen, no ear is heard, no mind is even conceived of what God has in store for those who love him. We can't understand the beauty, the wonder of heaven yet. And so the Bible uses figurative language to try to suggest to us, and in an accurate way, but to kind of give us a little bit of a foretaste or an appetizer to try to understand what heaven's going to be like.

But the truth is, we can't comprehend it yet. In fact, you know, in this world we see a color spectrum, and it's based on the light from the sun. In heaven, the color spectrum would be based on the light of God, and so we're going to see colors in heaven we've never seen. And how do you describe that to someone?

You can't. And so the Bible can't say, well, here's a color you're going to see, and you can't describe that. So the Bible gives us suggestive language and so forth, and sometimes that can lead to a bit of confusion if you don't interpret it properly.

But I think the confusion about heaven is true, as you say, not just among non-believers, but among many Christians. I hope this book gives people a sense of encouragement, a sense of wonder, a sense of anticipation, a sense of joy. I mean, when you think, consider this, you've seen pictures from the Hubble Space Telescope of the incredible galaxies and, you know, billions of light years width of the universe and so forth, and the beauty and the wonder of it.

God called that into existence. And when you look under a microscope and you see the complexity of a cell and you see the beauty of flowers and the wonder of the animal kingdom, you say, this is the creativity of God. And they say that this God is going to create an afterlife, a heaven, that is going to be an expression of his creativity and love for us, a place designed for us to maximize our sense of pleasure and joy and adventure and wonder. You think about that and you go, okay, I may not understand yet exactly what heaven is going to be like, but I'll tell you this, I can't wait to experience it because it's going to be awesome.

It's just going to be awesome. So if you want to clear up your confusion about heaven, the afterlife, you want to get a copy of this brand new book from Lee Strobel. It's called The Case for Heaven. We'll send it to you for your gift of any size to us here at A New Beginning, and we'll use those resources to reach more people with the gospel and the teaching of the word of God.

And as our way of saying thanks, we'll send you your own copy of The Case for Heaven. So Lee Strobel, you are 70 years old. Lee Strobel Yes, I am. I'm an old man. David- Well, I'm right behind you.

So I'm 69. You know, we all leave a legacy. We're all remembered for something. How would you like people to remember you? Lee Strobel Hmm. Wow.

Well, that's a great question, Greg. You know, I think about something, what would I want on my tombstone? You know, and I think I'd want something along the lines of, he dragged as many people to heaven with him as he could. David- I love that.

I love that. Lee Strobel You know, I mean, God, God, God redeemed me, he changed me, transformed me, gave me a mission, he gave me purpose in life, and I just want people to experience that. I want people to have what I've had, which is the joy and the adventure and the wonder of knowing God personally through Jesus Christ, and experiencing that on a daily basis, of being enriched by Scripture and the wisdom and the stories and the insights that we get from Scripture.

I just want people to experience that. And I think of my father-in-law was an atheist, and he had a stroke, and the doctors told us he was going to die soon. And so we had him at our house in a in a La-Z-Boy chair, and I said to my wife and his wife, who was a Christian, I said, you know, give me one more shot.

And they went out to do something, and it was just me and Al. And I looked to him and I said, Al, do you realize you're dying? I don't want to be in heaven without you. Your daughter, your grandchildren, your wife, we don't want to be in heaven without you.

Al, please. And for 45 minutes I cajoled him, I reasoned with him, I explained the gospel again and again, and then I began to see tears in his eyes. And I said, you want to receive Jesus right now, don't you? And he nodded. And at the age of 87, 87 years old, an atheist his whole life, he prayed, he received Christ, and then my wife came back and his wife and we had a celebration.

We were going to cook a dinner and have a party to celebrate Al coming home to God. But then we noticed something was wrong. His left side was sagging. He was having another stroke. We called an ambulance. Leslie, my wife, got in the ambulance with him, went to the hospital, I got in the car. She got to the hospital and they put him on a gurney and they were wheeling him into the emergency room.

And he looked up at Leslie and he said, tell Lee thanks. And he went in and that stroke ended up destroying his mind and he lingered for a while and then he died. You got in under the wire.

Under the wire. The last cogent conversation of his life. And he received Jesus as his Lord and Savior. And I will spend eternity in heaven with him, even though it was under the wire at the last moment. You know, Jesus tells that great parable about the landowner who hires the workers, some at 9 in the morning, some at noon, some at 5 p.m., and some at the end of the day, and then he pays them all the same thing.

And they say, wait a minute, how fair is that? And he said, you're questioning my generosity? You know, God's grace is so overwhelming that even my father-in-law, crusty old guy, army veteran, you know, tough as nails, to receive Jesus in the last conversation of his life, now in heaven, he'll be with grandchildren and great-grandchildren he had never met. And that's the wonder of God's grace.

He drug as many people to heaven as he could. Is that what you wanted? I love that.

I haven't heard that before. If an older Lee could speak to a younger Lee, like a young boy maybe, what would you say to yourself? I'd say keep searching. The truth is out there. You know, I'd want to say don't give up. And I say that to anybody listening who says, I'm not sure about this stuff. I'm not sure I believe.

I'm not sure what I believe. Keep searching. The truth is out there. The Bible says in the Old Testament and the New Testament, those who sincerely seek God are going to find him.

God rewards those to seek him. And so I would say just don't give up. Keep seeking. And you know what? The seeking process is not in vain. It's a good thing. When I came to faith, ultimately after two years investigating the evidence, God gave me that two years of evidence now that I use in reaching out to others with the gospel.

And so it's not a wasted time. And so as you said, you know, many times to ask questions, to have some skepticism, as long as just a healthy skepticism is okay. You know, I think of John the Baptist. He got arrested and he began to wonder a little bit about Jesus. But he took action, got a couple friends together, said track Jesus down and ask him point blank.

Are you the one we've been waiting for? Are we to wait for somebody else? And so that's, I think, the approach we need to take when we have doubts, when we have uncertainty, when we're tempted to deconstruct our faith, so to speak. Pursue answers.

Pursue evidence. And you know, God will reward those who sincerely seek him. That's Lee Strobel you're hearing from, everyone. And he has a brand new book out called The Case for Heaven.

It's subtitled A Journalist Investigates Evidence for Life After Death. And we're sending it to you for your gift of any size to help us continue to teach God's Word and proclaim the gospel. Because we, like Lee, want to drag as many people to heaven as we can. Well, speaking of that, Pastor Greg, just recently a very dear man died. He was like a second father to me.

I hadn't seen him in years. And I learned from his funeral that he accepted Christ at the age of 70. And I can't tell you the joy I felt when I knew I would see him again in heaven, you know. Can you imagine if you didn't believe in the afterlife how much harder it would be to grieve for loved ones who pass? You know, everybody grieves when they lose a loved one.

Even Christians. And I think it's a mistake to say to a Christian, you should not grieve or feel sorrow if your loved one has gone to heaven. The difference is we don't grieve hopelessly. We grieve hopefully. We have hope.

We know we'll see him again. But the depth of our sorrow is an indication of the depth of our love. Because we loved a person, we mourn, we grieve. Even when Stephen was martyred, it says, Godly men mourned over him.

Well, why? He was in heaven. Well, because they loved him and they missed him and they wanted him there with them still.

There's nothing wrong with that. The Bible even says there's a time to mourn. But at the same time, there can be comfort that will come from the Lord because Jesus said, blessed are they that mourn for they shall be comforted. And the comfort is knowing we'll see our loved ones again.

The comfort is in knowing they're happier than they've ever been. And so it puts things in perspective. You know, I would like to ask Lee a question that illustrates how no one is beyond the reach of God. Because you mentioned your friend who was 70 years old. Lee, tell us the story of famous daredevil, Evil Knievel. And you received a phone call from him because a lot of people don't know the story about what happened to Evil Knievel. Yeah, Evil Knievel, a man who lived, he was a womanizer. He was a drunk.

He went to prison for beating up a guy with a baseball bat, just lived a very godless life. And one day my phone rang and I picked it up and I said, Hi, this is Lee. And the voice says, Is this Lee Strobel?

I said, Yes. And he said, This is evil. And I thought, Oh, my gosh, Satan has got my phone number. Can Satan do that?

No, no. He said, Is Evil Knievel? Oh, and he told me the story. He said, I was on the beach in Florida. And God spoke to me.

I felt it on the inside. And God said to me, Robert was his real name. He said, Robert, I've saved you more times than you'll ever know.

Now you need to come to me through my son, Jesus. And he had this experience. And he thought, I don't even know who Jesus is. So the only Christian he knew was Frank Gifford, the sportscaster. And so he called up Frank said, Frank, I had this experience. Who's Jesus? And Frank said, um, get that book, The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel.

That'll explain it. So he got, he read my book. Anyway, he had a absolutely profound conversion experience. How old was he when this happened?

You know, he, golly, he was around 70, around 70. And radically transformed, radically transformed when he gave his testimony at the time he was baptized. The pastor literally ripped the, his sermon in two and said, You've heard the gospel today. You don't need me to preach a sermon.

Evil Can Evil just preached you a sermon. He just told you about the grace of God and how God transformed his life. And if you want to receive Jesus right now and be baptized right now, come on up. This church, I don't think it ever had an altar call.

700 people came up in two services and received Christ and were baptized. I mean, and I'll tell you one, Greg, as I got to know you because we became friends before he died. And by the way, on his tombstone at his request, it says, Believe in Jesus.

But his biggest regret, he used to call me up. He said, Lee, he said, What if I had received Christ as a kid, as a teenager, my life could have been totally different. I could live for God my whole life, but here I am.

I'm an old man. And, and, and I would tell him, I would say, Evil, you know, God is going to use you to reach people that maybe would not be reachable by someone who became a Christian as a kid, because you did live a wild life and you did live an immoral life. And yet God has redeemed you. He's changed you. He's given you new perspective, new values, and so forth. And maybe you will have credibility with people that, that you wouldn't otherwise have. But his biggest lament was, Oh, if I'd only come to Christ as a teenager. And I think about that when I speak to teenagers.

And I think, you know, you've got your whole life ahead of you. And, and Evil would have given anything to go back, receive Christ and live a godly life. He just had that sense of regret. So I tried to encourage him and, and he became a dear friend. I look forward to spending time in heaven with him, because when he died, we were looking for a motorcycle to buy. He wanted to get another Triumph motorcycle, Bonneville, that he used to jump way, way back when.

And he was shopping for one at the time when he died. He was going to give me a ride. And I said, you know, in heaven, I'm going to run into Evil Knievel. He's going to say, hop on the back, Lee.

I'm going to give you the ride of your life. You know, I'm just thinking that right now you're listening and you might be a person who's older, 70, 80, maybe even older than that. You're thinking, it's too late for me. It's never too late to come to Christ.

But I'm thinking of someone younger. Listen to the advice of Evil Knievel. He had it all. He had fame. He had money.

He had all the things that people say you should have to be happy. But his regret was, why didn't I do this sooner? Maybe you're young, you can do it right now. Learn from Evil's mistakes. And I'm thinking this would be a great time to just invite anyone listening, young or old, man or woman, boy or girl, whoever you are. If you've never asked Jesus Christ to come into your life, why don't you do it right now?

That's right, right now. I'm going to ask Lee to lead you in a prayer. And maybe you would pray this prayer with Lee Strobel, a prayer of accepting Christ into your life. Lee, could you leave folks in a prayer?

Yeah, just pray this. You can say it out loud or just say it in your heart. God will hear you.

Just say, Lord Jesus, as best I can, I do believe that you are the Son of God. You proved it by returning from the dead. And right now, I confess the obvious, which is that I'm a sinner.

I mean, there's no mystery about that. I've done things. I knew they were wrong before I did them, and I did them anyway. I've sinned, and I want to turn from that. In an attitude of repentance and faith, I want to receive. I want to receive this free gift of forgiveness and eternal life that you purchased on the cross when you died as my substitute to pay for all of my sin. Thank you for loving me so much that you underwent the torture of the cross so that we could be reconciled forever. Help me, Jesus, to live the kind of life that you want me to live, because from this moment forward, I am yours. Amen.

Amen. If you just prayed that prayer with Lee Strobel, I want to send you at no charge a copy of something we call the New Believers Bible. It's a New Testament with hundreds of notes that I wrote that will encourage you in an understandable way what it means to know and walk with Jesus Christ. So Dave's going to give you the information, the phone number to call, and we want to say to you, if you just prayed that prayer with Lee, congratulations and welcome to the family of God.

Yeah, that's right. And we hope you'll write us today for that New Believers Bible. In fact, we'll even throw in some additional resources as well and a packet of information. It's free of charge. You can call us anytime at 1-800-821-3300.

That's 1-800-821-3300. Or write A New Beginning, Box 4000, Riverside, California, 92514. Or go online to harvest.org and click on Know God. And of course, we hope you'll let us send you a copy of Lee Strobel's new book, The Case for Heaven.

In it, he interviews a number of experts about the evidence for the afterlife and offers credible answers to the most often asked questions about what happens when we die, near-death experiences, heaven, and hell. It's our thank you gift when you partner with us to help keep these daily studies coming your way. And your support also helps us reach out with the gospel, as we'll be doing this weekend in Idaho at the Boise Harvest. Get the details at harvest.org.

But we hope to hear from you today. You can call us at 1-800-821-3300. Call anytime 24-7 at 1-800-821-3300. Or write A New Beginning, Box 4000, Riverside, California, 92514.

Or go online to harvest.org. And thanks for praying for the Boise Harvest this weekend. Pastor Greg welcomes Jeremy Camp, Chris Tomlin, Andy Mineo, and Jordan Felice. Pray that many would hear and respond to Pastor Greg's gospel messages. And if you know a friend who's in Idaho, tell them about this event.

Get the details at harvest.org. Well, next time, Pastor Greg offers some important insight on the Lord's Prayer. Not the one we usually think of, the one that starts, Our Father Who Art in Heaven. We'll consider the prayer Jesus prayed on our behalf. Join us here on A New Beginning with pastor and Bible teacher, Greg Laurie.