The Billy Graham I Knew | A Special Discussion on the Great Evangelist

Hey everybody, Greg Laurie here. You're listening to the Greg Laurie podcast and my objective is to deliver hopefully compelling practical insights in faith, culture, and current events from a biblical perspective. To find out more about our ministry, just go to our website harvest.org.

So thanks for joining me for this podcast. Oh. Pastor Gregg, it's nice to be here in this library. By the way, for those of you who don't know, my name is Yves La Schera. Writer for a variety of publications, including GQ, including National Geo, and Noblemen Magazine more recently, and which I've had that's when I met you.

That's right. And we did an interview on the other side of your office. Yes. Remember that? Yes.

The one thing I love about this place, and I was kind of particular about wanting to be here, is that. We have a library with a bunch of books, a bunch of knowledge. But a little bit of what Reverend Graham said that all the knowledge in the world won't matter if you don't have God in your heart. And so that's the first thing that I want to kind of talk about a little bit about. All these years later, seventy years of crusades.

And Reverend Graham passed away in 2018, I believe, right? Um why does he matter? Still today, we still talk about him, we still have reverence. I don't think there's anybody, I think he was 57 times the most liked man, most respected man, most admired man, more than any other person. Any other, you know, I think the second one was 28 somewhere.

Yeah. Why does he still matter today? Maybe he matters more even today. I think sometimes with the passing of time, you get more perspective on how singular a figure was. And, you know, there have been different evangelists that have appeared on this scene in American history, arguably going back to George Whitfield, before we were even a nation.

He preached the gospel to the colonies and thousands of... people came to Christ and later we became a nation. Then fast forward in history and you have Charles Finney, then you have D.L. Moody, then Billy Sunday. And it's funny, after every one of those guys, people said there'll never be another D.L.

Moody. There'll never be another Billy Sunday. And now Billy Grimm comes on the scene, and he eclipsed all of them as far as his effect. Course, he had mass media at his disposal. Billy Graham was the king of all media before Howard Stern claimed the title.

He was an innovator in radio, in television, in film. And in And in satellite technology and everything else you can think of, but I think he matters today because here is a man who lived a godly life. There was no scandal attached to his name. He both started. And he ended his spiritual race well.

And I think there are takeaway truths from his life. In fact, I wrote this book to introduce Billy to a younger generation who maybe see Billy like a one-dimensional figure, like Abraham Lincoln on a $5 bill. Oh, yeah, I've heard of him. He was a great guy. No, I want you to know him.

And even more, I put a lot in here about his childhood, about his youth, and sort of introduce you to this energetic guy who was willing to take risks. And I hope it will be an inspiration for a generation of young people because God is always going to raise up. people to change the world.

Well, speaking of changing the world, we live in a very divided world right now. I mean, there's a lot of a fraction everywhere it seems. It seems like when Reverend Graham started to preach. The country was unified, but there were dangers everywhere else. I mean, World War II was coming and all of that.

But somehow he found a way. To put himself in the middle of things, yet not be of those things, and still be the simple preacher from the South that he was. Is there room still for a man like that nowadays? And I'm, you know, and I'm gonna make the parallel to you at some point in our conversation. Is there room?

For Preachers, pastor, evangelists, to be those kind of guys who can be in the middle of culture without being of the culture and still talk about Jesus. I think there's room for it, and I think there's a need for it. Billy was a bridge builder, not a bridge burner. And it's worth noting that he had a close relationship with every president from Truman to even President Obama. He had a kind of a misstart with Truman.

He was just coming into his own. He was a very young preacher. And he went to the White House and he made the mistake of putting his hand on the president's shoulder and prayed for him and later found out he broke protocol. And so he apologized to Truman, who said, Of course, you didn't know.

Someone should have briefed you. But Billy was very close with Eisenhower, but he was close with President Johnson, even President Kennedy, who he did not really know all that well. In fact, I once asked Billy, Billy, do you have any regrets in life? And he says, Yes, I do. He was preaching at a presidential prayer breakfast, and President Kennedy was in attendance.

Afterwards, the president said, Billy, would you ride with me back to the White House? There's something I want to talk to you about. Billy said, Well, Mr. President, I'm sick with the flu. Maybe I could come back in a week or two and meet with you.

And the president said, That's fine. And tragically, Kennedy was assassinated in Dallas only days after that. Billy said, I always regretted that because I wondered what he would. Wanted to talk to me about. But I think even a guy like Kennedy knew that he could trust Billy.

He had a relationship with Nixon. He had a relationship with Ronald Reagan, George H.W. Bush, George W. Bush. In fact, George W.

Bush said Billy played a key role in him getting off of alcohol and coming to put his faith in Christ. And even President Obama came to visit Billy at his home in Montreat, North Carolina. But he was always a bridge builder. And back in the day, there was great racial tension as there is today. And he was friends with Martin Luther King, and he called him Mike.

And so Billy did not feel called to go and march with Dr. King. But he did something that was very risky for Graham. He had Dr. King pray at one of his services at Madison Square Garden.

Dr. King was a controversial figure. People who were racist didn't like this, but Billy would cross those lines. Here's a son of the South. Breaking down racial barriers.

He did crusades earlier in his ministry where they were segregated. Billy said, I will not speak to a segregated crowd. Everybody can come and hear the gospel. That was something that was very important to him from the very beginning. And I think people felt comfortable about around him.

He was not a judgmental person. He was a very kind person. Billy had his political views. He was very conservative politically. But he never made that his cause.

Billy's cause was always Christ. I think it's interesting.

Well, we're going to jump a little bit and talking about the presidents. I think the reason, I mean, after reading the book, I think you get the idea that the reason why the presidents trusted him is because he was trustworthy. He never revealed anything. And it was the same thing with Churchill and the same thing with other personas throughout history. With media, what it is now.

And I think that by the time that Reverend Graham kind of in his last few years, there was no social media yet that was really that strong. Would it be possible to do this now in this day and age and be able to have a level of privacy When it comes to those conversations, because I mean, you go to the White House, everybody knows it in the morning. And then people have opinions about their own business. That's really true. Yeah, I mean, yes and no.

I mean, I think that people would be aware of your comings and goings. But Billy was a man who lived a scandal-free life, so there's no worry there. But it's how much you want to reveal. You know, people reveal a lot on social media, they reveal more than they should, and sometimes old tweets come back and haunt them later in life. Billy was very careful about what he said.

He was very conscious of what he said to people. And even when I was with him in private, I was always pressing him for details about conversations with people. Because when you shook hands with Billy Graham, you shook hands with Mr. History. You know, I quote C.S.

Lewis, he met C.S. Lewis. I admire Winston Churchill. He met and spoke with Winston Churchill, all the presidents and the celebrities of the day, from Bob Hope to Bing Crosby to John Wayne, to all these people. He interacted with them as well, Johnny Carson.

And Bono came over to his house. And I said, well, what was it like? To meet Bono, and Billy said he read poetry to Ruth. Because Ruth is a poet, and of course, Bono, a poet, songwriter. They had a real connection, but I thought, wow, here's a guy, you know, he had a relationship with all these people, but then even into the present day with people like Bono and others, he was always a bridge builder, and people were drawn to him.

And I think what they were drawn to was Christ. You know, Billy was a humble man, and I think Jesus. Emanated from him. I've met a lot of interesting people. I've met a lot of famous people.

I've shook hands with four. Presidents. I've been in the Oval Office. I've seen power. I've seen all these things, but I've never been more impressed by a person than I was by Billy.

And he was the godliest man I ever met. People asked me when I read the book what I thought, and I thought it was a love story about hope. And I thought that this book, the totality of it, is a little bit of the totality of what Reverend Graham was. It's really hard to get him one chapter at a time. You want to look at the totality of his life.

But it was really about hope. A lot of the things in the book that we talk about, whether it's Korea, China, troubles in the South, trouble and political scene, there was a lot of hopelessness. Churchill really talked about the fact that he was not very hopeful for the world. But what it dawned on me that every time he came back, I have hope. I have hope through Jesus Christ.

Is that hard to keep? remaining hopeful nowadays. Depends on who you put your trust in, what you put your hope in. I think if you've put your Hope and trust in a politician? The answer is yes, regardless of what side of the political aisle you are on.

I think if you put it in human solutions, you're going to be greatly disappointed. Billy had a simple, profound faith. faith. that he kept throughout his entire life. His hope was in Christ.

You know, people asked Billy to run for office early on in his career. And I have no doubt that if he had chosen to run for the presidency, he would have won. Because he was such a great communicator. Not to mention the fact that he was very photogenic and very appealing on multiple levels, but he understood what his calling was. In fact, his response to that was, well, I have a higher calling.

And he really did. And the mark that he made is greater than any American president. The mark that Graham made is greater than any world leader because he made a mark for time and eternity and on people's lives. And it made a huge difference in so many lives. And so I think that he had hope because he always kept his focus on Jesus.

And in fact, there's a chapter in the book contrasting Billy Graham with another evangelist named Charles Templeton. And you see what direction Billy took in his life, continuing to trust the Lord, continuing to believe the Bible, and the choice that Templeton took. You have a team of people that you surround yourself with that you trust. Um For Graham, there were three that kind of came to mind: T.W. Wilson, George Shea, and of course, Cliff Barrows.

Yes. How significant were those men, not only in his personal life, but how to grow this ministry that kind of grew leaps and bounds quickly? How significant were they? Very significant. And George Beverly Shea was, of course, the beloved gospel singer of his day, who would usually sing right before Billy would come up and preach.

Cliff Barrows was the song leader and sort of the host of the Billy Graham event. And T.W. Wilson was a longtime friend of Billy, going way back to his early days in Charlotte. In fact, when Billy went to hear the evangelist Mordecai Ham, where he ended up coming to Christ, his buddies were T.W. and T.W.'s brother Grady.

So these were the guys he felt comfortable with. It was interesting, after Billy would preach, he loved to hang out with Grady. I never met Grady. But I did get to know TW quite well. He loved to be around them.

There were a lot of jokes, a lot of stories about the old days. They kept him grounded. And they were a sounding board. They would tell him the truth. And also, T.W.

was a United States sheriff and would be a protector of Billy if necessary. But he also would wash Billy's socks in the sink of the hotel.

So he was just a servant to Billy. T.W. could have been a great pastor somewhere, an evangelist in his own right, but he felt he had a calling to serve Billy Graham and help Billy Graham. And so these were a loyal team that were with them to the very end. And it's an amazing thing to think about.

There's uh there's a bunch of quotes that I that I love from from Reverend Graham, and one of them that I really found is: he says, quote, when I stepped onto this platform last night, which I've never been before. Um I didn't go down and examine whether or not the past platform could support me. I was trusting that the carpenters would build it right. A little bit of the same way with cry is you commit yourself and you trust. How hard is it to trust you know not only Your team around you, and then I'm going to make the connection to you now.

You're the pastor of a big church, but you're also the leader of an organization. All hard is it to reconcile the two. And how do you find the time to trust all the people that you have to in order for this to work?

Well, you develop relationships, you know, and Billy spent... Years traveling with these guys. And when you travel with people, you spend a lot of time together, you know, because there's the event, but then there's the days or the times where there is not an event happening.

So you're with each other, you're doing things together, you're in airplanes and cars together. And I think he saw that these were trustworthy guys that really loved him and wanted to be with him. And so, and he knew that he could rely on them. But Billy was a very trusting person by nature as well. He was not a walled-off person.

He was a very open person. And I don't know where that came from. He just was. And he was very, like I said earlier, accessible and approachable. And I think people sense that with him.

And, you know, if Billy had a flaw, everybody has flaws, right? Nobody's perfect. Billy didn't walk on water. Billy's, one of Billy's flaws was he could be maybe too trusting at times. I wouldn't call him naive.

He was far from naive. He was very intelligent and had street smarts as well. But there was this aspect of Billy's nature where I felt at times he would maybe overcompliment a person. And I don't think it was insincere. I think in Billy's eyes, he really saw that person that way.

And maybe I had a different opinion of that person. And I would think, I don't know if I'd say that exactly. But I thought, okay, but if you're going to have a flaw, that's a pretty awesome flaw to have. If you're going to have a flaw, the problem with this guy is he thinks too highly of other people.

Well, actually, that's a biblical virtue. But, you know, perhaps people took advantage of Billy a little bit here and there, you know, asking Billy to endorse this or say that. And Billy was very careful with those things, but sometimes his team had to step in to protect him a little bit because people would try to exploit his good nature. I think it happened a little bit with Nixon, right? Oh, 100%.

Billy was shocked when he heard those recordings of what Nixon said and the use of profanity and so forth. And that was a Nixon he did not know. But I think to Billy's credit, after the president resigned and went into exile, in effect, in San Clemente, Billy still reached out to him. Billy still went and visited him. And he never talked about it.

He just did it. And he wanted to let the former president know that he was loved by God and by Billy and Ruth still.

So I thought he was a real friend to Richard Nixon, who I do believe exploited Billy somewhat. People that don't realize that, in addition to being Reverend Graham, who he became, he was the president of a college. He was a college graduate, both him and his wife Ruth, who graduated from Wheaton College. There was a little bit of controversy with him being the president of that school. What do you think he really thought about?

Because I think that he was a little. Not quite convinced that he should be the president of that school. I think he kind of went in almost as a sense of duty. Yeah. Do you think that not that he regretted that, but then he could have concentrated more on his Crusades and on his evangelistic work rather than being the president of a college.

Well, you know, everything in life is preparation for something else. And I think that Billy went through some things where he discovered what he was not called to do before he fully discovered what he was called to do. And one of those things was being the president of that university. And Dr. Riley approached a very young Graham and wanted him to take his mantle.

Billy never felt called to higher education. That was never something he aspired to. But this Dr. Riley was so persistent that Billy finally agreed. And after he took the position over, He began to regret it, realizing this is not what I'm called to do.

But in his tenure there, he did an amazing job of growing the school, building a bunch of buildings that were paid off, and actually got the school going in a great direction. And I think learned some things that would help him later as he was forming an organization, the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association. I've been on the board of this organization for 25 years. They are just so careful about everything: their accounting, their reporting, the way they run it. It's always been just an amazing organization run with such integrity.

And that's a reflection of Billy.

So I think he learned there that, okay, I'm not called to do this, but I think he did a good job in the interim. He also built a radio station for them, and it was sort of a sign of things to come because radio would become very important to Billy in the beginning and then the launch of his national and later international ministry. You said something that's interesting and I made a note about it. Is it sometime more important to know what you're not called to do as opposed to being called to do something? Yeah, I mean, I often encourage people, you know, if you want to get involved in serving in the church, volunteer for everything.

And, you know, maybe you won't be good at all those things, but sometimes finding what you're good at is first finding out what you're not good at.

So, you know, someone volunteers in Sunday school.

Well, I'm not really good with kids. And they volunteer over here, but then they find their sweet spot.

So Billy had some hits and misses. That was one. Where he became the president of a college. The other was when he became the pastor of a church. It was offered to him.

He was newly married. He didn't talk to his wife about it. They said, You can, you know, just take number one, right? That's right. And she said, You've got to talk to me about these things, Billy.

We're married now.

So he was still sort of thinking like a single guy then, but he thought it would help them, you know, be financial stability and so forth. But even that, it gave him a heart for pastors. And he learned more about the church. And Billy always loved the church and supported the church. But he was not called to be a pastor, but for a short period of time, he was.

And there were some important lessons to learn there as well.

So, yeah, I do think it's important to find out what you're not called to do before you find out what you are called to do.

Well, you must have read my nose because I wanted to talk about the whole idea of being a pastor and an evangelist. I think that Reverend Graham found pretty quickly that he was really gifted as an evangelist and then pastoring might not be his cup of tea. I don't pun intended. You do both. Uh and you do both at a pretty high level.

How hard is that? It's not as hard as people think. It's sometimes like putting on one hat and taking off another.

Sometimes I do both simultaneously, but when I speak at a crusade event or We put a film together that's evangelistic in nature. I just simply. Shift gears. To Speaking like an evangelist, which is a little different than a Bible expositor.

So maybe I've gone through the text and I finished my message, and then when I shift to evangelizing, I just make it more like a conversation.

So I've just spoken on whatever subject, and then I'll turn to the viewer or the listener, or however I'm speaking to them, and just say, check it out. You have an appointment with God tonight. You do. You say, well, I I didn't see that on my Google calendar. No, you have one.

It's not on your Google calendar. It's on the heavenly calendar. This is your night. To come into a relationship with Jesus Christ. I don't know.

You know, Billy once said to me. Greg, I think you should leave your pastorate and go into full-time evangelism and work with us. Here at the BGEA. I said to Billy, you know, Billy, you saying that to me, it's like Moses just asked me to do this. And he kind of smiled.

I think Billy understood the effect he had on people. I said, I'm going to seriously pray about that. And I did pray about it. And it troubled me for a while because. There was part of me that did want to go and be a full-time evangelist, but also I felt a calling to be a pastor.

And I finally went back to him and said, Billy, I actually feel. called to do both. And I'm not the only person who is a pastor and evangelist. There have been others historically. I think C.H.

Spurgeon was a great pastor and an evangelist. Martin Lloyd-Jones, who has written a lot of great commentaries and such, he also felt that he was called to be a pastor and evangelist. Arguably, the Apostle Paul was a pastor and an evangelist, as was Simon Peter. I'm not comparing myself to them, but I'm saying the gift mix is not that unusual. It's still a short line.

There's not that many of them.

Well, you see nowadays, there's not that many of them. There's a lot of pastors and a lot of great teachers, and there's very few evangelists. You must be reading my notes. Yes. Well, there's...

Oh, there are many evangelists.

Well, there's only one person identified as the evangelist in the New Testament, and his name is Philip. Nobody else is called that Philip the Evangelist. And we read about Philip. sharing the gospel with a man from Ethiopia. who worked for the queen and was searching for God in Jerusalem and he joined Philip on the road and Philip shared the gospel and this man came to Christ.

So it does seem that it is a calling that you don't see as often. I wish more people were called to be an evangelist because I think we need evangelists in our culture right now. People who can drop religious verbiage and speak in a way that normal people can understand them. You know, I've heard it said that the objective of a pastor is to get the cookies on the lower shelf where the children can get to them. I do not try to impress people when I speak.

I try to communicate with people. And I'm very happy when someone writes me and says, You know, we watch you as a family, and our 10-year-old really loves your jokes or something. I'm really happy when I hear a young person is understanding what I'm saying. I'm wanting to be understood by them.

So I think that Billy always understood that. He did an interview once with David Frost, and he said to Frost, I study to be simple. It takes more effort to be simple than it takes to be complex. You have to work at it harder. I'd say this: Billy was not simplistic, but he was simple.

And when he got into the pulpit, he understood that his job was to preach for a decision. You know, the difference between Bible exposition and evangelism is an exposition, you know, you talk about the backdrop, the history, the language, the culture, what this means in context in the Bible. Then you make present-day application and exegete a text. An evangelist, it's different. He gets into the pulpit.

And she gets an, you know, an evangelist can be a man or a woman.

Some of the greatest evangelists I've met have never stood behind a pulpit. They're just great communicators. I've seen women go and engage people boldly with the gospel.

So this is not limited to men or women. You can be an evangelist and not even be technically in ministry, but you're ministering. But coming back to what I was saying is the evangelist preaches for a decision. In other words, from the beginning of the message to the end, they're building to a moment where they're going to say, here's what Jesus said. Here's what he promises.

Here are his claims.

Now, what are you going to do about it? And they put the ball in your court and they ask for a decision. We talked about the idea of simplicity in messaging and communication. I think it was one of his real gifts. I mean, this was a guy that, I mean, you said yourself, you were in awe of, I still are.

Uh, but somehow he was able to talk to anybody, yeah, the plumber and to the president, yeah. Um This idea that communication becomes a very It's a difficult gift. Not everybody can do that. Yeah. Do you find yourself sometimes I was talking to your son Jonathan the other day.

And um I was asking, how are you doing? And he said, I'm doing well. You know, we just have to the men's conference. It was a busy time. And I said, well, you know, I'm ready to just, you know, I mean, there was really a lot of energy in the room.

He goes, yeah, he said, but man, sometimes people just come and talk at you. They just want to tell you things. And he said, you know, and sometimes you just want to talk with them. Is there an art to this to be able to say, okay, this person needs to be engaged? I need to be engaged.

Well, this person, like, maybe I can just say, okay, well, I'll come back in a minute. How can you do that without somebody leaving saying, Wow, you know, here's that Greg Laurie, and they want to talk to me. Is there an art to this? Yeah, I think there is an art. I think it starts with.

Having an interest in people. You know, when you were with Billy, He never talked about himself. But he always wanted to know about you. I've been with preachers that they love to talk about themselves. And I think this and I think that.

And that's fine. There's a place for that because many times I'm very interested in what they think. But Billy would say, Tell me about yourself. I was with him once at the Red Lobster. That's where he wanted to go to lunch.

So we sit down. He has a baseball cap on. I think he thought that helped, you know, disguise him. But he had such a famous profile. He could have been carved in Mount Rushmore.

And so we're talking, and the first thing he said to me was, Well, Greg, tell me about yourself. And then he listened. He was very interested in hearing my story. And I'm thinking, why am I talking about myself to Billy Graham? All I want to do is ask him questions.

But he was that way. He took an interest in people, and he might tell your story to someone else, and he would tell it with complete accuracy.

So he really listened to what a person was saying. And I think that's a little secret because it's been said that everyone's favorite subject is themselves.

So when you take an interest in someone, they love it and they love to be heard. And I think people felt they were heard by Billy. And that's probably one of the secrets of his relationships with presidents is he was a good listener. He paid attention. But then you would ask him his thoughts and things and then he would tell you.

But he never dominated a conversation. That was an interesting quality about him. In the book, one of the themes that comes across besides Reverend Graham's love for Jesus was, of course, his love for his wife, Ruth. Um And after reading the whole story, and I had read a lot about Reverend Graham before, I also read a lot about you. There's a parallel, I thought, between his ministry His wife Rud supporting of this ministry.

and the way Kathy is to you. Um How important is this? And not just in the fact, like, well, you know, I have a wife, she supports me, and it's great, but really in the growth of this ministry for the last 40 plus years. You know, how important is this to have this partner that not only you can count on, but also helps you grow, not only as a man, but as a pastor, as a man of God? How important is that?

Well, I think it's vitally important. I don't think there would have been a Billy Graham without a Ruth Graham. And she was in every way his equal. She was very intelligent. uh very articulate, very insightful.

You know, it's interesting. Ruth could have easily had an international women's ministry. She could have written a lot of books. She wrote a few. But she chose to be primarily a wife and a mother and spend time at home.

But she was such a great support with Billy. I was with them in many occasions, watching them interact. I was always very impressed because they were like any other couple. They would, you know, have their disagreements. Ruth would tell Billy what she didn't agree with.

She was a great sounding board for him, where others might be, oh, Billy, that's wonderful. Ruth would tell him if she didn't agree. And Billy would often say, Ruth is the real Bible student of this house. He'd say, oh, no, he's just being modest. Actually, I think that's pretty true.

Like when you walk by Ruth's little study, she had a desk there just piled high with books on top of books. And when you would speak with her, she just had all these thoughts and quotes. And I mean, I honestly. Enjoyed being with Ruth as much as I enjoyed being with Billy. And sometimes Billy would be away doing crusades, and we would speak up at a place called the Billy Graham Training Center at the Cove.

And Ruth would invite us all over for lunch and we'd spend hours with her. Ruth loved to laugh. She too was a great listener. She was just so much fun to be with. But then she would have these incredible insights that were so helpful.

One time I said to Ruth, I was just starting out. I'm in my 30s. I said, well, Ruth, I'm starting to do these crusades and speak in these stadiums, and I need to really brush up on my apologetics. And Ruth said, Greg, you just concentrate on the gospel. That's what Billy always did, and that's great advice.

Kind of like something your mother would say to you, and it was good. I needed to hear that. And, you know, so she was such an asset. And my wife, Kathy, is the same to me. I mean, she value her opinion above anybody else's opinion.

And when I hear good news, the first person I want to talk to is my wife. When I hear bad news, the first person I want to talk to is her. She helps me process it and think it through. And she always has interesting ideas and perspective on things because, you know, she's been with me from the very beginning, as was Ruth with Billy.

So that's so important to have someone like that. That you can have in your life. And I remember a time. Much later in their lives. Ruth was very ill.

In fact, she wasn't long for this world. And uh we have a mutual friend, Dennis Agagenian, who came to play his guitar for Billy and Ruth, and he he played an instrumental version of the Hallelujah chorus. And as he was playing, I was looked at Dennis, I looked over at Billy, then at Ruth, and Ruth was just glowing. She was in very poor health, but she was just almost like glowing. And I looked over at Billy, and he was just looking at her, smiling.

And I thought, there's some kind of a moment happening here. I don't understand it, but I can see it. And after the song was done, Billy turned to Ruth and said, that was the song they played on our first date. Because Billy took Ruth to see Handel's Messiah. Of course, the Hallelujah, of course, is part of that.

And I just thought, wow, what a precious memory. But I saw that love that he had for her to the very end. And when Ruth died, I was at Ruth's memorial service. Billy was devastated. It had a huge impact on him.

He really needed Ruth in life. And he continued on after that, but he missed her so much. I think it's hard to recover from that sort of loss. The one thing that really struck me about her, she was witty. She seemed witty to me.

This is a quote in the book. She wrote in her 1982 memoir, It's My Turn: A Christian wise responsibility balances delicately between knowing when to submit and when to outwit. Adapting to our husbands never implied the annihilation of our creativity rather than the blossoming of it. And I thought it was so apropos because there's a lot of debate now about the role of the family, the role of a man within our family, within God. And I think we had lunch, we talked about it a little bit.

What is it that we've lost a little bit, what it is to be a man in today's world, and how is it to lead your family in a godly way? How difficult is it right now? I mean, I hear it from my friends who are Christians who are not Christians. Like, well, you know, I yeah. Yeah.

I don't know what to do. How do we address that? How do we deal with men nowadays? And I know that you're going to tell me the answer is with Jesus, and I know it is. Um But how can men lead their family now?

I remember that scene on The Godfather where Johnny Fontein comes to Vito Corleone and he starts to cry and Vito slaps him and says, Be a man, right? I don't think men know what it is to be a man anymore. And you know, there's so much blurring of the lines right now of the genders and our roles. But you know, God, God invented all of this, He knows what He's talking about. Starting with marriage, there's this stereotypical view: the man is the head of the home, and what he says goes, and the woman is to submit.

Well, that's actually not what the Bible teaches. Yes, it is true, God has placed the man in a position of authority in the home, but It is also true that the Bible says in the book of Ephesians to both husband and wife. submit yourself one to another in the reverence of God.

So, before Paul says a word about wives submitting to husbands, Paul says, submit to each other. And the word submit means support one another. Be each other's greatest supporters.

So we go into this with a mutual humility, but we acknowledge that we have different roles. There are things the man can do more effectively than the woman, things that the woman can do more effectively than the man. Rather than fight over this, let's celebrate this. We both have an important role to play. But then, what is the man to do?

He is to love the wife as Christ loves the church. That's servant leadership. That's not male chauvinism. That's not lording over the wife. That's putting her needs and interests above your own and including her and loving her and cherishing her.

And then she is to submit unto him as unto the Lord.

So even that for the woman is an act of worship to Christ. And we can fight about these things, but I believe the Bible. And I think when a family will come into In order under what God says, but with a With an understanding of what it means, it can be a beautiful thing. And I don't, you know, my wife and I are partners. We discuss things, we talk about things, and we agree on things.

I can't really think of many decisions. There's maybe a couple, but many decisions in life where I said, we're doing this if you want to or not. I usually am able to get her to agree with me. One decision was when I bought a 67 Mustang, and she was very unhappy and said I... that was a bad thing but then that ended up being the impetus for a book and a movie about Steve McQueen so I think she Later said, Yeah, that was probably a good thing that you brought that listening to.

Redemption. Yeah. Um Something that kind of dawned on me on the in the book too is that I think that Reverend Graham was surprised at his affect not only on people but how quickly Youth for Christ, all of that grew.

So I'm going to make the parallel once again with not only Harvest, but the Crusades here. with you. Are you ever surprised when, wow, Yeah. Three nights at Anaheim Stadium or the amphitheater somewhere or this building or the other building. Is there a time where you sit at home like, Uh wow.

What's happening here? You know, and through the years, and I'm guessing now that you're. I won't say older, more experienced. But I'm older. And wiser, and all of those things that we acquired with time.

Is there a time where you sit down, like? God. What have you done? Yeah. I think as you get older, you're able to look back and connect the dots.

I have a friend named Michael Franzes. He used to be in the Colombo crime family. He was being groomed to become the next Don, the next godfather, if you will. And so he, you know, was in the mob and got himself in a lot of trouble, and he was sent to prison. And they're having problems in the crime family.

And they said to Michael, you need to, this is my second mob reference. I mentioned Godfather too. I don't know if this is good. But so they said to Michael, you need to help us right now. We need your help.

And so he wanted to get involved again, even though he was told by the feds, if you have any contact with members of organized crime, we'll send you back to prison. It was his intention to get involved again. And he crossed some line, kind of a minor offense, and he was sent to prison. And the whole crew he was involved with all were killed in short order as he was in solitary confinement.

So sitting in there, he's thinking, why is this happening to me?

Well, God. Allowed him to go into that prison to find Christ because a prison guard gave to Franzes a copy of scripture, and Michael came to the Lord, also protected his life. And I think that we realize in time that God is at work in the details of life. And sometimes when you're going through it, you don't understand it. It's like poor Job.

He had never read the book of Job. You know, one day he wakes up and calamity is striking. And, you know, he's losing his possessions. He's losing his livelihood. And worst of all, his children have died and he finds himself covered in boils.

He didn't know there was a conversation in heaven between Lucifer, a fallen angel, and the Lord. And the Lord allowed certain calamities to happen to Job. He didn't understand God was at work. But as you've lived longer, you can look back and... Start connecting those dots and say, okay, I didn't understand this at the time, but the Lord prepared me for this other thing.

And he allowed this because this other thing was going to happen. And you start seeing. The truth of Romans 8:28, which says, God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God and are called according to his purpose. And I think Billy could look back and see that in his life. I know that I can look back.

and see that in my life as well. Let's talk about you mentioned the idea of doubt a little bit, and it kind of brings me back to Charles Templeton. In the chapter, it's really two Diverging path for two evangelists. And I think that. by what I've read, and I've read other materials too, that Reverend Graham was really heartbroken over this.

Um Templeton. at one point decided like you know what this is baloney But towards the end of his life. I mean, you say something at the end of the chapter that you believe that he's somewhere sitting with Reverend Graham now. Um Doubts. That's why I wanted to sit in this library.

Because there's a lot of books a lot of wisdom in these books. Uh and sometimes we forget that the only wisdom that we need. is the one from this Bible that we have everywhere here. Reverend Graham had doubts after this, after that, he had real doubts, and he really got down on his knees and prayed and asked the Lord to guide him. Have you ever been in this position to say like, Lord, I I don't know about any of this.

Oh, of course. You know, um it's been said A doubt is not a sign that a man is wrong, it may be a sign that he's thinking. We have to think these things through. And I definitely had.

Well, I had doubts right after I became a Christian. Like, is this real? What do I do now? Is this going to work for me? And as the Lord began to change my life, I realized those doubts were not.

Right. You know, when my son died in an automobile accident, In 2008, I had doubts. Like, why did God let this happen to me? How could this possibly ever have anything good come out of it? And so that was really devastating to me.

But I've often said it. And this is not original to me. We need to doubt our doubts and believe our beliefs. And that is the moment when we really, I think, find out what we've built our faith on. Because a faith that cannot be tested is a faith that cannot be trusted.

So sometimes people will go through a crisis in life.

Something bad will happen to them or someone they love, and they'll say, Because that happened, I no longer believe in God. I've lost my faith. And my response is, well, maybe that's good. Because what is that faith? And what is that faith in?

Is it in Christ? Because bad things are going to happen to good people. Inexplicable things are going to happen that we will not understand. Until we get to heaven, can we trust God in the interim? And so coming to uh Billy, and I was able with my son to just realize that all these things that I'd preached to people and taught to people were true because I leaned into everything and it all worked for me.

God was there for me, and He got me through the hardest moment of my life.

So I know if He can do that for me, He can do it for anyone. Because at the end of the day, I was not a preacher, I was a father who lost a son. And that's what I was grappling with. And God helps me through it. I put that in the present, not just the past tense, because it's still very hard, and I still miss my son so much.

Well, coming to Billy. Charles Templeton. They were both preachers with Youth for Christ. This is before Billy had his big ministry opportunity at the tent, and everyone knew his name.

So he was just starting out. Many thought Templeton was the better of the two preachers. Templeton was very articulate, a very effective communicator, very intelligent man, actually, he was a very talented graphic artist as well. But Templeton started having doubts, and he questioned if this was a good way to reach people, and what happened to all these people that make professions of faith in these meetings that they hold. And so he.

Began to get an education and was sort of being influenced by some liberal theologians and began to doubt everything. And he encouraged Billy to join him in this doubt. And Billy struggled with this because there were certain things Billy was not sure of. And so Billy parted company with Templeton. And he was up at Forrest Home Conference Center.

The mountain of Sambridadino, and Billy took his Bible, he laid it out on a tree stump, and he said, I accept this book by faith, and I choose to believe it's true. And from that moment, Billy never looked back and never really entertained any serious doubts. And of course, went on to have his worldwide ministry.

Meanwhile, Charles Templeton. His life took a very difficult course. Multiple marriages and divorces. He wrote a best-selling book, Farewell to God, I think was the title.

So he was celebrated. Look, anytime someone says, I don't believe in God anymore, they will be celebrated by the secular press. Until they've gotten what they want from you, then you will be discarded. You've served your purpose.

Next. And so Tumbledon had his moment in the sun. This former evangelist who now is an atheist or an agnostic. But the course that Templeton's life took is very sad. And so toward the end of his life, my friend Lee Strobel went to visit him.

And he wanted to talk to Templeton about Him and Graham, and why he turned away from the faith. And as they were having the discussion about Jesus, Lee Strobel was really surprised because Lee used to be an atheist himself. He wrote the book, The Case for Christ. The Case for Christ, right. And he wrote for the Chicago Tribune.

He was, you know, very successful writer. He went from atheism to faith in Christ.

So he kind of understood the mind of the atheist.

So he's talking to Templeton, and Templeton starts talking about Jesus and says, I miss him. I miss him. And then he began to cry. And Lee was really surprised by this. And then Templeton ended the meeting.

So there's sort of a breaking. I think Templeton was beginning to Doubt his doubts. You're like, wow, maybe this isn't right. And so his wife writes that on his deathbed, Charles Templedon said, I see the angels. And so I think it's entirely possible he returned to his faith.

and maybe he was just a prodigal son who took a long trip away from home, but came back at the end. But you look at the course their life took and what Billy went on to accomplish, and you think of the potential that Timbleton had. I thought that was pretty sad, but a powerful contrast of the importance of making the right choices in life. It must be a pretty interesting conversation in heaven right now. There was something that you wrote in the book that Templeton said that Billy's faith was too simple.

Is there such a thing?

Well, I think that was his estimation at the moment, but I think that was part of the secret sauce of Billy Graham. Simple is not bad. Simple is good. Simplistic and simple are two different things. Billy was a deep thinker.

He was a very intelligent man, a very well-read man. When he was around people, be they world leaders or theologians or whoever they were, he always was learning, always asking questions, always reading, always studying, very aware of things and expanding and growing, as did his wife Ruth, a great reader, a great learner. But that simplicity of his faith is a virtue. Jesus said, unless you become like a little child, you cannot enter the kingdom of God. Simple just means I trust.

in an all-powerful, loving God. who is in control of my life.

Some might call that simple. I call that smart. And that's what I choose to do as well.

Now, some may criticize me or others that have this kind of faith, but well, well, let's just compare notes at the end. Let's see how your decisions influenced you and where that leads you. And let's see where my decisions influenced me and where it led me. And we'll see how it works out. I think I've made the right decision.

And I have enough examples of godly men and women who have preceded me. And of course, the scripture, most importantly. And so that is the course I'm going to take. God says, I set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Choose life that you may live.

I love this. It's like the Lord says, okay, here's life. You make the choice, but it's sort of like a test. The teacher says, Here's a test, and here's the question. By the way, here's the answer to the question.

So you get an A on the test. God says, I set before you life and death, blessings and curses. So choose life. By the way, the answer is choose life. Choose my way.

but choose to follow me, choose to live by my word. and I think whatever sacrifices you make will be more than made up to you by God. I love the idea in the book. Throughout the book, there's the idea of a re a revival. America in post-war, pre-war, post-war, pre-civil rise, post-civil rise, nowadays the idea of a revival is always ever present.

You spoke really famously about the Jesus Revolution. You wrote a book about it. Out in the 70s. Are we in the midst of a new revolution? Are we in the midst of a movement?

Are we in the midst of a revival? And I know that we need a revival in this country. Is it going to be permissible? Are we going to be able to be allowed to have a revival in this country?

Well, it doesn't matter if we're allowed or not. If God wants it to happen, it'll happen. When revivals have broken out, it's a spontaneous work. Of God. One person defined revival this way.

God gets so tired of people misrepresenting him, he decides to just show up himself. You know, and I think it's when a revival, well, the word revive means to restore to original condition.

Sometimes it's called an awakening. I use the words in different ways. I think the culture needs an awakening, and I think the church needs a revival.

So the church needs to be revived or restored to original condition.

So we're more like the first century church, the church that turned the world upside down. The church living in a first love relationship with Jesus, a simple faith, if you will. The culture needs a spiritual awakening. When the culture sees a revived church, it'll impact them. You know, 2 Chronicles 7, 14, God says, if my people, which are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then it will hear from heaven and forgive their sin and heal their land.

You know, God doesn't direct his remarks to the government. He doesn't direct his remarks to culture. God doesn't say if Hollywood will do this or if Washington, D.C. will do this. He says, if my people will do it.

So the change we need in America, is not going to start with a White House. It's going to start in God's house.

So God's people need to get right with him and turn from our wicked ways. And then God promises, I'll hear from him. Heaven, forgive their sin and heal their land.

So, to me, the healing of the land, the healing of a nation is what America needs. That statement was given contextually to the nation Israel. But I think in principle it applies to any nation, including the United States.

So, Billy preached on revival quite a bit. I think there are moments in his ministry where. where revival came, like when he preached over 1 million people in Korea. That's revival-like. You don't hear of that happening just every day.

And there were moments of places where Billy did crusades, Los Angeles, later Madison Square Garden, in Boston, and other places where it was like the name of Christ was on the front page of the newspaper. Lives were being changed. Culture was being impacted.

Well, that sounds like revival to me.

So sometimes revival can be localized. It can break out in a single church or in a community. And sometimes there can be a national spiritual awakening. I don't think we're having one of those right now. But I see revival-like fires here and there happening in different places.

We've had four great awakenings in America. the most recent being what is called the Jesus movement. In fact, we're making a film about it. John Irwin, my friend, who... uh runs Kingdom Productions.

Uh Who directed I Can Only Imagine is making a film called Jesus Revolution based in part on my book. and it will be the story of the last great spiritual awakening that happened here in Southern California. When two men came together, a young hippie preacher named Lonnie Frisbee and a pastor named Chuck Smith. And it was like nitro meat glycerin, kaboom. And amazing things happened, and young people were being reached.

And I was one of those young people.

So this movie will also tell the story of how I came to faith, how my wife Kathy came to faith, and how we met each other. But, you know, it's been said. The fame of revival spreads the flame of revival.

So we're hoping by telling a story. And you know, movies are different. Like when you read a book, you read it in a certain way, but a movie kind of moves you emotionally.

So our hope is that when people see this film, they'll almost feel like they were there a bit. You take them back in time, and our hope is that it might. Have a role or spark an interest in a younger generation to say, we want a spiritual awakening like that for our generation. I want to read something from the book that really kind of brings that to um In the book he writes, quote, But I have one tremendous fear, Billy said, that you may be looking for a man or a team from America to bring revival. There's only one person who can send revival and that's the Holy Spirit.

I believe there is a hunger for God, and by the grace of God, before these three months have passed, we're going to see a great revival in the city of London. If I eliminate the city of London, if I eliminate the last three months, we can apply that for today, correct? Absolutely. And they did see a spiritual awakening in London. They were filled with fear and trepidation because the The venue they booked.

I The press really turned on Billy even before he landed there. He took a ship over, and by the time he arrived, the press had just savaged him. And he did not return fire. He treated them with respect and kindness.

So they kind of thought, oh, well, you know, maybe this Yank isn't so bad. But they predicted failure for his event. And the first night when it was packed to overflowing, and it just went on for nights and nights and nights. Billy went over to England many times, even had ministry to the queen. Billy had a great impact on the queen and her faith and drawing her closer to Christ.

Some have even said he led her to Christ. That was reflected in an episode of the very popular series, The Crown. And I think the effect of Graham on the queen was even greater than what the crown showed. But yes, these things are true. We don't plan revival.

We pray for. revival. It's like we pre-prayer the ground. You know, we We get things ready. Again, going back to 2 Chronicles 7:14, God says, If you will humble yourself and pray and seek my face and turn from your wicked ways, I'll hear from heaven, forgive your sin and heal the land.

In the story of Jonah. and Nineveh when he went there and preached the gospel. This huge revival broke out. There were over a million people living in the city of Nineveh. And it happened just by one man.

Being obedient to God. Reluctantly, I might add, he obviously ran from the Lord. We all know the story of Jonah and the whale, or Jonah and the great fish, but that's not really the focus of the story. It's really a story of the greatest spiritual awakening in the Bible because people turn from their sin.

So I once asked Chuck Smith. Who was the pastor of Calvary Chapel and regarded by many as the father of the Jesus movement? Will we ever see another Jesus movement? And Chartrepont's response was, I don't know if we're desperate enough. I think when we really get desperate, and realize that it's not a political solution, it's a spiritual solution.

and we really start calling out to the Lord in desperation. I think God will hear. You don't organize a revival. You agonize for a revival in prayer. We need to get to that point.

And I think when we do, God will hear. and prayerfully answer. You quoted Charles Spurgeon in the book. And it's just what you said. If you are filled with agony for them, Yeah, the sinners.

Yeah. Oh God, give me converts or I will die. that energy that Reverend Graham had. To bring people to God. I think it's such a theme throughout the book.

The one thing that I was really curious, because I also will make the parallel to you. There's several times in the book that you mentioned that Reverend Graham lost 20 pounds, and he lost 30 pounds, and he lost another 20 pounds, which that man was ever dwindling because of the intense amount of work and travel and all of that. How do you deal with that? You have also a very busy schedule. I can't believe that we're having two hours together.

I just wish I could lose the 20 pounds. But, you know, how do you How do you do that? How do you find the energy? I know that Reverend Graham responded in the book, you know, the Holy Spirit feeds me, and I just, but in the practical matter, how do you find the energy to do this ongoingly? I mean, if you've done it now for 40 years, he did it for 70 years.

I'm actually close to even 50, even though he older than you think.

Well, you know, it's a funny thing with Billy. He he was so filled with energy. Uh you know Today, we would probably diagnose him as being hyperactive, but that energy served him well later in life. He was always a very energetic guy. Uh very Intellectually curious person, a person who loved to grow and learn.

And so he had an enormous reservoir of energy. Just by the way the Lord wired him. But I think even more than that, he loved what he did. He loved the Lord. He loved to see people reached by the Lord.

You know, for me, Eve, it's like. Uh I'm moved more by individual stories than I am by Many people showed up to a meeting. I mean, obviously, when I speak, I love to have a full house if I can and reach as many people as I can. But when I hear a story of a life that was changed, a life that was impacted, how something that was said maybe turned a person from suicide or turned them from their drug addiction and they came to Christ. And wow, that is what keeps me going.

And I think that's what kept Billy going as well. And, you know, I love what I do. It's not a job. It's my calling. It's my passion.

I do it because I want to. I know people my age who are retiring.

Some are even pastors. And well, look, I can never retire from preaching the gospel. I can never retire from teaching the Bible. That's what I'm called to do. But I actually love what I do.

And my favorite things to do are actually studying, preparing, writing, and delivering messages. There's other things I don't like to do as much. That are involved in what we do. But You know, and I think, boy, you think about travel back in the days of Billy Graham, especially in the 40s. It was brutal.

Planes were a lot slower back then. Ships across country. Yeah, that's right.

So they would. It was so grueling, the life on the road, and that's probably why he lost so much weight. And plus, when Billy first started preaching, he was like a machine. He prowled that stage like a panther. He was in constant movement.

As he got older, he didn't move around as much, but there was always a lot of energy in Billy, even in his older years, just kind of this spark of energy. I think at times when I was helping him with his messages. He was in his 70s at this point, and late 70s, even. And so I'd go up to his hotel room and I'd looked at what he was going to preach, and I collected some illustrations. And I would actually preach them to him.

I said, Okay, Billy, at this point, you say this. Here's an illustration. Here's how I would say it. I would just say it to him like you'd say it. And he'd just look at me.

And then, if he liked it, he'd slowly pick up his phone and call his secretary, Stephanie, and say, Stephanie, I want you to use this illustration that Greg just gave me. And so I'd give it to Stephanie, and I would look at him and thinking, How is he going to muster enough energy to preach tonight? And then he would get to, because he was struggling with Parkinson's, he was on medication. And so he had a lot of issues that he was dealing with physically, but then he would step into that pulpit. And as Ruth would say, it's like 20 to 30 years came off.

A new man all of a sudden. Yeah, I was in vom.

So the funny thing is, people think, oh, that's so exhausting. Yeah, it is exhausting. Preaching is very tiring, but at the same time, it's energizing. There's times I'm like, you know, my mood, I wouldn't say I'm depressed, but I'm just like. Oh boy, I don't really feel like speaking right now, you know, but I know God will bless once I step up there.

And there are times I've started on empty and ended on full, it energizes me. Um Even when I've kind of felt a little sick, like cold symptoms or whatever, I get up and preach and I come out feeling stronger.

So I think when you find what you're called to do, it'll energize you. You know, you'll get tired in the Lord's work, but you should never get tired of the Lord's work.

So I have to be honest, I don't understand people. who are much younger than me, who say I burned out of ministry.

Well, Really? Um I get tired. I take a little break and I'm good. I don't understand burning out. Because you draw your strength from Christ, you keep your eyes on Christ, and you do it for Christ.

And I think that will help you to run this race well. In the book Reverend Graham really talks a lot about. When people would come to Christ during his crusades, there was energy that was sucked at it. And you mentioned it as well. But then he said that at the end, he was filled with the Spirit when he saw that.

I saw it happen last weekend. When we were at the men's conference. And those 150, but by the way, you know, we were all at our eyes closed. And then Josh kind of. You know, saying that's the job.

Poke me in the rib, and I opened my eyes, and there were 150 guys there. And we were all brought to tears. I saw your face. It was a face I had not seen before. You know, I went to the Crusades before I met you and all that, and you know, and you're far away in the rafter somewhere, and it's hard to see.

I saw your face. There was a. It's like something came over you. There was a smile that I had not seen before. Um Explain to me how does it feel when you have a call for somebody to accept Christ and they actually lift their hand and make that trick.

And I know the guys are not we're not the most you know, women tend to be Easier with this, yeah, absolutely. They're more open, more open, men are more guarded. To see guys, you know, commit to this, I thought it was spectacular. But tell me how you felt. Yeah, well, let me answer by Same when I posed effectively that same question to Billy, then I'll tell you how I feel.

I once asked Billy, what do you feel? physically and emotionally when you give the invitation. Because I'd watched him many times sitting on the stage with him from behind. And the way he'd look around at the room and he'd pray, and then he would look around a little bit more, and he might say a couple of things. And he said, I feel like power is going out of me.

And I felt the same thing when I'm giving an invitation, especially in a stadium. I feel the spiritual warfare going on around me. I feel like I'm in a vice that's being closed. And it's. I've had people say, wow, it must really be a...

Uh A fulfillment to your ego to stand up there in front of all those people. I said, believe it or not, it's the opposite. Because I feel a real responsibility when I step up there to speak. I'm representing God. And I'm representing his word, and I don't want to mess it up.

So that's a certain amount of pressure to begin with. And then I'm hoping the crowd will understand what I'm saying and the Lord will work on their heart.

So that's spiritual warfare. But so it's like depleting and energizing simultaneously. It's like you're emptied, but you're filled. As you do it. and you realize it's a privilege and you realize it's not you.

There's nothing I can say to make a person believe. There's nothing I can say to convince a person, but I recognize that the Holy Spirit works of the Word of God. And I recognize there are certain elements that need to be reinforced, which, in the case of the evangelist, is. is the death and resurrection of Jesus. In our attempts to cross over, sometimes we fail to bring the cross over.

You know, Paul said, I don't want to know anything else among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. And I once asked Billy, Billy, if an older Billy could speak to a younger Billy and you could give yourself advice, what would you say? And he says, I would tell myself to preach more on the cross of Christ and the blood because that's what the power is. And I think sometimes people fail to understand that in an evangelistic appeal, you need to talk about the death and the atonement of Christ on the cross for our sins and his resurrection from the dead and how to come into a relationship with him. That's the essence, that's the heartbeat of the gospel.

So that is something that always needs to be there. But, you know, afterwards, I've discovered that after I preach, it's very important for me to, as quickly as possible, return to normalcy. Once I was with Billy in Portland, Oregon. And it was a great meeting. In Portland, Oregon, packed out stadium, Johnny Cash sang that night.

So, as Billy was leaving the stage, I was walking next to him, and we're going through a sea of people on both sides. The ushers were sort of keeping them at bay. People are calling out, We love you, Billy, Billy. And he just kind of walked through, just Sort of nodded, smiled a little, but he wasn't like waving, he just kind of walked through. And then we got into the car, and TW was driving.

I was riding shotgun. Billy was in the back seat in Franklin. And I turned back. And toward him, and I said, Billy, that was a great message tonight. Billy looked at me and said Well, it's just gospel.

They've got, oh I know that. Turn back forward, I know it's just gospel. And then I thought of a point he made, and I said, Turned back around. I said, Billy, I love that point you made when you said Christ can resensitize your conscience. That was a great point, Billy.

Billy said, Well, he can. I'm like, what?

So I just thought I'm going to compliment everything with the accent, too. And he kids. And so we get to the hotel, and someone had given us these cold. barbecue beef sandwiches to eat, which were warm once. But by the time we got to the hotel they were cold.

Uh Billy invited us all up to his hotel room. He disappeared for a few moments, came back out wearing his pajamas and his dress shoes. I think he forgot his slippers. And we sat around and ate those cold sandwiches. And I thought, okay, I'm learning something here.

First of all, don't believe your own press. You're not all that in a bag of chips. You're just a delivery boy. You're there to deliver the message of the gospel, and whatever happens, it's been done by God.

Now just be normal again. Don't sit around and think you're someone's important. And I just saw Billy was with people he was comfortable with. There were jokes, it was fun stories, there was just a relaxing, and then it was on to the next thing. And so I think that was one of the keys of his success is coming back to his team.

He had people that kept him grounded, people he felt comfortable with. And he didn't walk around like with, you know, like with a big head. He was actually a very down-to-earth kind of guy. And that was not a persona. That was not.

That was not. No, that was him. Yeah, that was him. I was with him. Too many times in too many settings.

There's no way that was fake. That was real. In fact, he had moments of insecurity. You know, he he himself, well, I don't know if this is going to work or you know, he would have a bold idea and pursue it, and then he would have moments where he wasn't sure. And he's just like anybody else struggling with these things.

You mentioned in the book that he was probably the coolest person you knew, and that says a lot because you kind of literally wrote the book on cool. Did I? Yeah, you did, and it's right here. Yeah, Steve McCool. You know the book about Steve McCool.

The King of Cool. The King of Cool, Johnny Cash, also the godfather of Kool. The Godfather of Cool. But you say in the book that he was the coolest guy you had met. Yes.

His appeal, I think. I watched some sermons last night. And There was a ton of young people in the crowd that obviously looked very different than who he was. Very, you know, nice suit, tie, perfectly coiffed, and all of that. And he had a bunch of kids there.

It felt like he was as comfortable with the presidents that he was with these young kids. How important is it to be able to speak to this younger generation of people that we have now? You know, kids that are either coming to Christ or they're the beginning of their life and they don't really quite know where to go. Yeah, well, you know, to me, coolness, it's a word. I mean, it goes back to the fifties.

It's, you know, stood the test of time, but we'll say, oh, he's cool. And maybe that's because of the way they dress or their Their persona or whatever it is, but to me, coolness is is being an original, being authentic. And Billy was an original. He wasn't a copy of somebody else. He wasn't taken up with the styles of the day.

Oh, sure, the younger Billy wore the double-breasted suit, the hand-painted ties, the buck shoes.

So he kind of was in the style groove of his day. But as he got older, he would generally just wear suits. And I think of an instance where he was now in his late 70s, maybe even early 80s, and he started using some of the Christian rock bands. He worked with a band called DC Talk and Michael W. Smith, and the whole stadium was filled with all these young kids.

And so the people loved the bands. They loved the music. But the greatest ovation and applause was. Save for Billy when he walked out. And Billy wasn't trying to be groovy.

He wasn't trying to be cool. He was dressed in his normal suit. But it was sort of like your grandfather was walking out. who's going to tell you the truth and you love your grandfather. It's funny how sometimes kids will connect to a grandfather even more than a parent.

You know, because the role of a grandfather is different than the role of a parent. And he was like this beloved grandfather figure who was going to tell you the truth, yet he had a very reassuring presence. And so he would just get out there and speak like he always spoke. But as he had lived it for all these years, it even resonated more. I think of the last time I heard Billy speak at.

Flushing meadows in New York. Uh, and he gave his final message, and he just turned to the crowd and he says, 'God loves you.' And he turned to another section of the crowd. God loves you. To another section of the crowd, and God loves you. And I think, well, that's kind of like the most obvious thing ever said.

But Billy saying it, it was powerful. And it was just a life that Had been lived for the glory of God. And so here he's at an event that is attended by all these people. And uh President Clinton and Hillary Clinton are there. Hannity and Combs are there now.

Alan Combs, who died, was the liberal, and Sean Hannity was a conservative. They had a show on Fox News called Hannity and Combs.

So they would debate it from a conservative a liberal view. But Combs was there listening to Billy Graham. Kennedy was there. Everyone was there. Billy crossed all these lines and just was so sure of his message.

And I just think to me, That is the coolest thing of all. to be authentic, to be real. and to be who God wants you to be.

Well, I think because he was authentic, he was able to be himself.

So I think it affected a lot of people. And that's why, I mean, there's something that you talk about in the book about speaking the truth to power. And he did that through his entire life, not only with presence here, but abroad, with dictators and all of that. Is there someone nowadays that can do this, to be able to go either abroad or here in the States and have the same kind of impact? And I know it's kind of a large question, but I'm wondering how possible is that, especially in the world that we live in today.

Well, I think it's possible. But I don't know of anyone doing this. I mean, if it wasn't enough to be... the Evangelist in America and really to the world, Billy was also a counselor to world leaders. Uh from the king or the queen or kings too of course but to the Queen of England, to Winston Churchill from Harry Truman to President Obama from Yeah.

You know Cliff Richards to Bono to Johnny Cash to Johnny Carson. I mean, you know, it just all these diverse people, he always was faithfully reaching them. And I don't really know of anyone doing that right now. It seems like today everything is so partisan. You're either in this camp or you're in that camp.

And Billy always kind of transcended that. And I wish there was someone that could be that person. I know there are certain pastors that have great influence with people and culture today. And I appreciate that. And I'm thankful there are men of God out there speaking truth to these folks.

And I know there are ministers that. Speak to people who are in political power as well. But I don't know of anybody that has done it on the scale that Billy did it. And for as long as Billy did it, and I really wish there was someone. Like that today.

It's very hard, Eve, you know, when you're in the Oval Office. The city. across from the President of the United States, the leader of the free world, The most powerful man on the planet, and to say something that's different than maybe he wants to hear. People don't know what kind of pressure that's like. You know, maybe you've been in the boss's office, so you kind of kiss up to the boss.

Think of if it's the president. But Billy was able to be truthful with these folks. But then he didn't come out and talk about it afterwards. And that was a great quality, and that's why so many of them trusted him. It wasn't an official position, he was not like the official chaplain to the president, but in effect, he was the chaplain to the presidents.

And I don't see anybody doing that right now. And I pray God raises someone up to do it. Reverend Graham's legacy is unparalleled. But he also was grooming. people under him.

And that ministry was kind of there were a bunch of old guys that were all together, and then okay, who's next? Franklin, who you're great friends with. Found his way eventually. But there were some some issues with Franklin as well. A little bit of a rebellious screen.

He was a prodigal son by his own addition. Correct. And now, you know. Franklin is a leader in his own right and the man of God in all of this. Do you see some of the parallels with Jonathan now?

The way it's moving a little bit. And I've seen Jonathan over the last few years. Growing on his own, you know, I just kind of wrote his notes for one of the sermons that he made, and I was pretty astounded. I was really impressed and how deep is not only his knowledge, but his depth for the love that he has for Christ, regardless of who you are. Yeah.

How do you see the ideal legacy? Our job is to pass the baton on. you know, the Christian life is a race, but it's like a baton race.

So You know, we carry it for a time. Billy carried it for his generation. I'm one of the many people carrying it in this generation. And then we hand that baton on and the baton is the gospel and it's the word of God. And then that person needs to carry it.

and pass it on as well. You know, John said, the Apostle John said, I have no greater joy than to know my children walk in truth. And just because you're the son of a preacher doesn't mean you'll be a preacher. It doesn't mean you should be a preacher. That's a calling from God.

But Jonathan has been called by God, and I've always been impressed by how seriously he takes his preparation. You know, Jonathan has never tried to be cool. Jonathan just is cool. But, you know, there's these like, I don't know what you want to call up.

Sometimes preachers, they want to be cool. They want to be trendy. I've always been impressed by the fact that Jonathan would rather deliver solid content and deliver the word of God. And we thank God that he has, you know, gotten that. And that's our objective is, you know, Paul said to Timothy that you pass these things on to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.

I have a friend named Bill. who had the privilege of meeting Billy. And it was a brief encounter. And he said, Billy, what advice would you give to a younger preacher? And Billy said, Get yourself a Timothy.

And of course, Paul had Timothy. Who's your Timothy? I have that line in my notes. Who's your Timothy? Well, I think, you know, I probably have many Timothies.

One does not choose their successor. I think God chooses that if there is to be a successor. I mean, when you see a successor, God chooses a man or a woman. He gives them a ministry. They run their course.

They go to heaven. And God chooses other people.

Now, they may kind of follow in line behind that one person, but it's not like some mantle of a certain calling goes. That's more of an Old Testament concept of like the mantle of Elijah fell on Elisha or the mantle of Billy falls on Franklin. I think God's anointing was on Billy to be what Billy was called to do. God's anointing came on Franklin for Franklin to be who God has called him to be. God's anointing is on me to be what I'm called to be.

God's anointing will be on Jonathan. to be what God has called him to be. Not to carry on my ministry. but to do his own ministry. But I've tried to take time in my older years now to spend with younger men and women, and share with them things that I've learned, hopefully that can be helpful to them things that i can pass on uh to encourage them because you know when you're older you've You've seen a lot of things, you've experienced a lot of things.

Hopefully, you've learned a few things. When you're younger, a crisis hits, it doesn't make sense, you know, because you're just starting to connect the dots. And so, it's helpful for an older person to maybe offer perspective and a sense of reassurance and a reminder that God's in control. And he'll continue to guide you, and you'll get through whatever it is you're going through.

So, um. You know, I've tried to do that for other young men, but I'm really thrilled. You know, with how God's working in my son's life, you know, he was very impacted by his brother's death. A lot of people think about how it affected Kathy and I. It was devastating for Jonathan.

Jonathan was closer to Christopher than any person he knew. Including his mom and dad. It was his big brother. Yeah, his big brother, and he could tell his big brother the truth. And the last words that Christopher said to Jonathan before Christopher went to be with the Lord.

Because Jonathan was struggling spiritually at that moment, Christopher said, Jonathan, what's it going to take? What's it going to take for you to get right with God?

So, Jonathan wanted to have another conversation with his brother, and then this. Horrible event happened.

So, this impacted Jonathan, and I'm not saying that. Jonathan wouldn't have made that commitment if Christopher had not been called home to heaven. But what I'm saying is it came Through a connection to what happened to his brother.

So I think whatever Jonathan accomplishes in his life You know, Christopher played a role in that. In fact, Jonathan named his son after his brother.

So he has the same name, the full name, Christopher David Laurie. Frankly, it was really hard for us to say that name afterwards, but as little Christopher is growing up, he's his own version of Christopher, and it's like the name lives for another generation, and we're so thrilled with that. But um So we all have We have to pass on what God has given to us. But ultimately it's the Lord that calls and equips people for their own ministry. there's something that you talk about in the book and and Billy really you know mentioned a couple of times about regret if he had something that he regretted.

I know there was the episode with President Kennedy that he really regretted. Is there something that you look at and you have regrets? I don't have any large regrets. Like, I've messed this whole thing up and I should never have done this thing. But there are things oh I shouldn't have probably, you know taken all these speaking engagements and done all this traveling and over committed myself here or there, Um But in the big things in life, I think largely I made the right choices.

We always learn from our mistakes and our missteps. I remember Billy was asked, you know. You know what regrets he had. He said, I wish that's. not spend as much time travelling.

I wish I had not taken as many speaking engagements, and I wish I had spent more time. You know, praying and telling the Lord how much I love him. I mean certainly I don't think I read the Bible as much as I ought to. I don't pray as much as I could. I don't think I share my faith as often as I ought to, especially one on one.

Um I have those same challenges and struggles that any Christian has. I always know that I fall short or I shouldn't have said that that way to that person.

So there are those kinds of regrets in life. It's just a human struggle. But um You know, by and large, I don't really have any big regrets to speak of. And I'm thankful for that. But hey, the day is young.

We'll see. I might do something really stupid today. I don't know. Well, you know, the one thing that I want to kind of wrap up with, I said at the beginning of our, of our Chat that I thought the book was a book about love and hope. I love that description.

No one else has said that, by the way.

So that's beautiful because I want it to be a hopeful book. I hope people will read it and laugh even. Oh, I didn't know that. That's funny, you know, because I think that in life, life can be very hard. And really difficult things can happen, and I think humor is so important, you know, to enjoy the humor, to enjoy the good times, to savor the good moments.

The bad moment will come soon enough, the problem will come soon enough.

So, enjoy life as you're going through it. And I wanted, you know, Billy, when people think of Billy, they see him with his white hair standing there, you know, just this sainted figure. And yeah, he became that, but that was a younger, brasher, energetic Billy, almost like a bull in a china shop, a risk taker, a guy who was willing to just go for it. And I love that quality about him, too.

So I wanted to show that side of him. uh that that who morphed into that That older man of God, that lion in winter, if you will, but uh.

So, and just show that there are stages of life that we go through, and we just want to be the best us in each stage of life, you know? And so. To savor each day, to enjoy each day, to be thankful for the time that God gives you. We don't know how long we're going to be on this earth. Nobody does.

And so, you know, you live your life well and honor the Lord, and because then one day you're going to have your last meal and you'll give your last statement. And for me, I'll deliver my last sermon and then eternity. But then the greatest life is coming. It's still to come. The greatest, the best is yet to come.

And Billy would often talk about how he looked forward to going to heaven. And so, you know, he's with Ruth now, reunited with her. And he's in pure joy and pure bliss, and I'm sure greatly rewarded for his faithfulness to the Lord. The band is all back together. Yeah, they are.

All those guys that he served with, Cliff and Bev, and T.W. and Grady, and so many others, they're all there together. Maybe he's comparing notes with Billy Sunday and Deal Moody. I don't know. But, you know, he certainly had a great reward waiting for him.

There's something that I'll close with this, to parallel about this idea, this book's about love and hope. There's something you say in the book that shocked me. Um You told me you love them, but you also said that you don't say these words very often other than to your family. Tell me why you chose to say that. in the closing of the book really that you told them you loved them.

Well, you know, a lot of people say, love you, love you, love you, bro, love you, man. You know, I don't say that to just anybody. And I said it to him. because they genuinely loved him. Because as a young boy living with my grandparents I watched him on television and he impressed me.

But I didn't understand what he did. Then I went and saw him As a 17-year-old preach in a stadium, and I thought, this is what I want to do when I grow up. But I never thought I'd preach in stadiums, but I felt a connection. Like, I think I'm called to do evangelism too. And then later in life I met him for the first time in a hallway and in Canada.

in Calgary. And then Then I met him again in 1985 and spent a little time with him, then I got to know him, then I became friends with him. And I just couldn't believe that I was able to be friends with this man and spend so much time with him. And to me, he was a father figure. And his wife was a mother figure.

You know, I didn't have a dad and mom growing up.

So I didn't try to become their weird adopted son, but he was a father figure to me. And so, yes, from a distance, but knowing him personally, he was so tender-hearted and so gracious and so kind. And being with him. And so I was with him at a board meeting in Charlotte, North Carolina, and we're sitting there, and I told him a story. I told him a funny story that I'd heard that some people thought was true.

And I said, Billy, did you ever hear the story that's told about you of when you drove? The limousine, he said no. And Billy loved a good story. He loved jokes.

So I said, okay, here's how the story goes.

So Billy Graham. Comes out of an airport and there's a limo waiting for him. First of all, Billy didn't write around on limos, but for the sake of the story, there's a limo waiting for him. And Billy says to the chauffeur, and I'm telling this to Billy Graham, which is kind of funny. Billy says to the chauffeur, I've always wanted to drive a limo.

Can I drive? And the limo driver says sure and he gets in the back.

So they're driving along the highway and and they're going over the speed limit and he's pulled over by the police and the police officer asks for his driver's license and he looks at the driver and he calls Back to the police station. He says, Boss, I've got something here I don't know how to deal with. We have a very important person. All I can tell you is Billy Graham is a chauffeur. And so he sort of smiled because it's a joke.

And then the funny thing is Later on, when Billy wasn't able to walk as well, he was in the White House in a wheelchair visiting the president, and President Bush was pushing Billy around in his wheelchair.

So it was kind of a. A thing that had a parallel to a real-life event. But the reason I said that to him was I just looked at him. He wasn't really preaching at this point. He was done.

He he was quite old. Uh and I I just thought, well, I don't know when I'll see him again. I don't know when I'll have an opportunity to say this to him. And it was very spontaneous. It wasn't planned.

I just said, Billy, I love you. And he looked at me and said, Well, I love you too. And I believe he meant it. You know, it wasn't just something he just said.

So. That was uh something I wanted to put in there because You know, with my upbringing, it was hard for me to accept love. And it was hard for me to give love. Because I was never told but you know, my childhood. By my mom.

I love you, or I'm proud of you.

So, this was a man that I connected to. a father figure that went back to the earliest days of my youth, That I was actually able to meet and know in person, and he never disappointed me.

So I just wanted to tell him I loved him.

Well Pastor Laurie, this is a tremendous book. And it's, you know, I look at it as my, as you can see with all the... the the nodes um It's become my companion book to my Bible. Oh right. Um Because there's parallels to To life, that I think is important for people to know.

I know it's a successful book already, so it doesn't need anybody's help, but God has blessed you with those words. And it's my privilege to have been talking to you about it. Thank you, Eve. You know, Billy would say to us in closing. It's not about me, it's about Christ, you know.

And I didn't write this book to glorify Billy Graham. I wrote this book to glorify. the Savior that Billy Graham followed. But God worked through a man. And God always works through a man, and He works through a woman.

And so we can learn from these people. And I know his ultimate mission was to call people to Christ. And so I wanted to write this book. And this is probably even the closest book I've written on the topic of leadership, using Billy as a model. Like, here's a leader, here's what I learned about leadership.

From this man. And so I think it has a lot to say to people in ministry, but just everyday people who are simply followers of Jesus Christ today. Thank you. Thank you. Hey everybody, Greg Laurie here.

Thanks for listening to our podcast. And to learn more about Harvest Ministries, please subscribe and consider supporting this show. Just go to harvest.org. And by the way, if you want to find out how to come into a personal relationship with God, go to knowgod.org. Dot org.

That's K N O W G O D Yeah.