Struggling to answer someone's questions about your faith, Pastor Greg Laurie recommends a great book to help. You know, I remember the first time that I shared my faith; I was so young, and I was challenged by an atheist. I did not have a clue as to what I should say, and I wish I'd had a copy of this book by Frank Turek and Norman Geisler, and the title of it is "I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist." And we want to send you this book for your gift of any size, available at. Harvest.org. Today on a special edition of A New Beginning, Pastor Greg Laurie and Pastor Chuck Swindoll sit down for a rare, revealing conversation.
Chuck, if you were to give one last sermon, what would your topic be? The grace of God. Yes, all you've got to do is come to Christ, and little by little, you'll see changes come that you don't deserve, blessings come that you don't earn, and He will bring in the grace like you've never had it before. Yeah. Wouldn't you love to sit down and talk with Pastor Greg Laurie for a while?
Wouldn't you love to sit down for a conversation with Pastor Chuck Swindoll?
Well, turns out they wanted to sit down and have a talk with each other, and we get to be in the room. Glad you're along for a special edition of A New Beginning. It's the finale of Legends Week. We started the week hearing from World War II hero Louis Zamperini and Pastor Chuck Smith. Glad you're along for this encouraging final installment.
Great, yeah. What would you do differently if you had these fifty years to live over again? Wow, I've never been asked that before. Spend more time. You don't have to be profound.
I would hang out with you more. What would I do differently?
Well, we'd have fun. I'll tell you that. Yeah, I don't really, you know, I don't want to say that I wouldn't do anything differently, but, but for the most part, I don't know that I would do anything.
So you don't have any regrets?
Well. Yeah, it's little. I mean, things here and there, but there's not any big thing in life where I would say I should have done this or in no, I can't say I have any major regrets.
Okay, that's probably not good. Billy Graham once was asked, you know, what he would do differently. He said, "I would preach half as much, I would spend more time praying." More time studying the word of God and telling the Lord how much I love them.
Well, I can certainly say that. Sure, should I have prayed more throughout my life? Yes. Yeah, everybody could say that. Have I worried too much at times?
Absolutely, yes. Yeah. Have I been impulsive at times and run ahead of the Lord? Sure, I have. But but by and large, I would say that that I found the will of God.
And I sought to walk in it. Yeah. And so I can't say I would do anything differently for the most part. What about you? I would have said yes more often, sooner than no.
To what opportunities, open doors, um. Stepping into something that I never dreamed I would do, I wouldn't be as reluctant. Yeah, I think that goes back to my very very early years. Yes, I'm not trying to excuse it, but. My brother was not reluctant.
Man, he would take on. You know, he went to Mission Field thirty-three and a half years in in Buenos Aires, and and when you go down there, when I go down there, I'm known as Orville's brother. You know, and he just he just bore right into it. Yeah. I was a little too cautious sometimes.
I was a little too strong with my children. I should have been quicker to say, "Yeah, that'd be fine." Yeah, that'd be fine. Cynthia helped me with that. She said to me one day, "You know, honey, you and I are both really cautious about our children, and for that reason, we started saying no." Right away to most things they want to do, we need to stop that. And I came across the whole idea of a yes face when I wrote my book on grace.
Yes, and we need to develop a yes face. Um, and I think I probably frowned too much rather than gave my children a yes face and told them. I would have probably told them earlier how proud I am of them, how pleased I am with them. I would have affirmed more and criticized less. Wow.
I would have been more patient. Yeah. Why are we so impatient? It's just. Our Lord is so patient with us, and and we turn around and expect the next thing to perfection from others.
Or so they failed at this.
Okay, did the world stop turning? You know, did did did the did the sun stop burning? I mean, life goes on, and I probably would have. Earlier on in my marriage, brought Cynthia into my life and made her more of a partner. Yeah, I learned how to do that after I about ruined our marriage.
And she said to me one day, we were in New England in a ministry, and it was tough sledding. And she said, "I don't want you to tell people we're partners anymore." We were doing the dishes together, and I said, "I almost dropped the dish." I said, "Why?
Well, we're not. Yes, we are. No, no, we're not. Yes, we are. No, we're not.
Yes, we are." And she stayed at it, and finally, in tears, I just. Burst out of her eyes, she almost screamed. "No, we're not." She put the dish rag down and walked upstairs, and went into our bedroom and closed the door. And I thought, as I finished, "We're not because of me." Well, Gregg. I went upstairs, and with tears, I lay down beside her, and I said, "You're right." She couldn't even talk by then.
I said, "I have, I have not entered you into my world as much as I could have. I know." I've I've not really presented you as I should have, because you're very significant to me. She rolled her eyes, and I said, "I'm going to change that." I spent the next five to six years working on that. When the opportunity to to be on the air came up, I couldn't lead it, and I said to her, "Honey, I I can't. If we take on this extra dimension of ministry, I'm going to need help." And I said, "I would love to have you be the one that leads it.
If you think about it, pray. I'll pray with you." But I have no one else better qualified than you to do that.
Well, she took it in forty-four years. She led in cycle living. Yeah, she came up with fresh ideas. She put together the the core values of our ministry and and how we would handle the staff and how we would handle our finances and how we would take care of each station and you know what our procedure would be. Time passed, and one day I'm in a group over here, and she's not far away in a group she's talking to, and there's a little lull in my group, and I hear her say, "Well, now that Chuck and I are partners, we do so and so, we do such and such," and I hear the p-word, nice partner.
And that afternoon, I'm in tears at lunch, and she says. What is wrong? I said, nothing is wrong. Today, you said it. What did I say?
You called us partners, and she goes, "We are." I said, "Hit the replay button, then go back about seven years." Wow. She did. I said, "Remember." She said, "I do." She says, "It's nothing like that now." I wish I would not have kept her away. Yeah, Greg, there are so many people who long to help us do what we do, and we can be so independent. Yeah, I'd be less independent.
I'd be quicker to say, "I need," or, "Could you help?" Or would you be a part of this? Or would you lead this? Would you take over that? Or I'm convinced you'd be better at this than I would be, and I would mean that. And I think the ministry would have just been on rollerblades rather than sometime on skids trying to get going because I was trying to do too much myself.
Yeah. More from Pastor Greg Laurie and Pastor Chuck Swindoll in just a moment. Did you know that we put our services that we do on Sundays online? It's called Harvest at Home, and you can be a part of our extended congregation no matter where you are. And people watch from literally all around the world.
So if you want to watch Harvest at Home or view it later if you like, just download the Harvest Plus app and then join us for Harvest at Home. You've tuned in for a fascinating conversation between two longtime pastors, Greg Laurie and Chuck Swindoll. It's the finale of Legends Week here on A New Beginning. You gave a message a couple of years ago, maybe, where you talked about three things that a preacher faces. One was loneliness.
One was disappointment. Another was being the target of attacks, yeah, and for, and you've been talking about that, realizing one's mistakes. You've talked about that quite candidly, right? Have you felt in your ministry? From the beginning to this present day, a loneliness.
Do you feel less of that maybe as you reach out and let people enter your world? When I let people enter in, I don't have that loneliness. When I don't do that, I do feel that loneliness. Yes, very insightful observation on your part. I'm now boiled it down to four major temptations.
Okay, and they're easy to remember because they all start with the same letter S. They hiss like a snake. The first is sloth. Yeah, you can really get lazy in ministry. Yes, you'd get better at your golf game than you are at your preaching.
Yeah, you you get better at fishing than you are working with people, and on and on. You get you can really you can really get slothful. Yeah, guard against sloth. Second, silver. Boy, the money can turn your head.
Yeah, they'll offer this, and then you say no, and they'll offer more money if you'll do it. No, and you more money, and then you start reckoning with, well, I could certainly use that amount, and then you get tempted. Stay away from the lure of doing it for the money. A big wedding, maybe, a big gathering, maybe.
Well, would you do this for twenty thousand? No, no, I can't do it. And no amount of money will turn my head. Watch out for silver. Third is self.
Self. Guard against anything that promotes you, especially your own tendency to build yourself up, to present yourself as better than you are. Or to remind people of great things, or to drop names, or on and on. We can we can do. Lilo, give the other person the credit.
Acknowledge your own staff. If she wrote the brochure, tell him she wrote it. I didn't write this. It's very well written because she's very gifted. But you can get credit for everything that comes out of the church, and you've done very little in it.
Pass along the credit, and a fourth, of course, is sex. That pornography is eating us up. I don't know how many men in ministry have finally confessed. It all started when I pulled the shades and locked the door. Turned on the computer and yeah, there it was.
And I say to people, look, if you if you would just stop that today's, it's never too late to start doing what is right. Yeah, one of my favorite sayings I came up with it several years ago. It's never too late to start doing what is right. Start now. Yeah.
Don't go into all the things you've not done, to all the things you should have done. Start now. Yeah. Stop viewing anything that is even near pornography. Yeah.
Don't go to the films. Don't read the books. Don't look at the magazines. Don't look at the things online. Of the four, that's the strongest.
Yeah. If you were to give one last sermon. What would your text be, and what would your topic be? Oh my! I believe I would speak on the grace of God.
Yes, I want to be known as a man of grace. Yeah, I really do. It would revolve around Christ, has to, because that's where grace. Originates, it would take us to the cross. It would probably be from Romans, maybe either chapter five or chapter eight would be the text.
Maybe both. For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, who though he was rich, yet for our sake he became poor, that we through his poverty might be rich. That's Corinthians, but that kind of message. And I would talk about you can know this grace personally. And you don't have to clean up anything.
You don't have to correct anything. You don't have to dress up in any way. You don't have to change anything. All you've got to do is come to Christ. Let Jesus become your channel to God.
Let Him become your own personal Lord and Savior, and He will bring in the grace like you've never had it before. Yeah. And he will take the the he will take the irksomeness out of your life. He will take the impatience out, and little by little, you you'll see changes come that you don't deserve, blessings come that you don't earn. It's all grace, and I camp on grace.
I love that. I drive it home. I love that. Okay, here's questions you've probably never been asked.
Okay, go easy on me.
Okay, these are not. I'm not like explain the sovereign. Of God, I was going to ask you what's your favorite go-to food. I would get a bowl of homemade chili. Oh, nice!
I would. Cynthia's chili is the best ever. That's delicious.
Some Fritos and a homemade chili, glass of iced tea. Have you ever been to In-N-Out Burger? Oh yeah. You like it? Oh yeah.
How do you order your burger at In-N-Out Burger? I order usually a double double. I admit, with everything on it.
Sometimes I even order it. My kids have taught me this. Animals, I get animals. Don't you? That's really good, isn't it?
It is good. Gets all over your wrist, all over your hands. Yeah, it's delicious. I love them. Do you?
What is your favorite movie? Like here's how I define my favorite movie. If I'm flipping channels on television and I see a movie, maybe I've seen many times, and if I stay and keep watching it till the commercial, that's a favorite movie. You know, just yeah. We have a lot of them.
I do too. My latest is Lincoln. Oh, I could see Lincoln every other week for five weeks in a row. I love military movies. Yeah, I enjoy Saving Private Ryan.
Yeah, I loved it. That was great. Yeah, that first scene in Private Ryan is as close to real combat as you'll ever see. I've heard that. Another one is.
One on on the Holocaust. Oh yeah, Schindler's that one. Powerful. I could have saved one more. I wept in it.
Yeah, I wept in it. Why do you think there's a rise of anti-Semitism? That's that's the most wicked return of racism I've ever seen. Yeah, and it's stronger today than maybe since. The World War Two.
It seems like it's made a comeback. It's not let up. Yeah, I know you love music. I know that you used to sing. I do.
And a boys' kind of not a choir. Would it be a boys' choir? Yeah, we had a boys' quartet. Boys' quartet. Yeah, I sang it.
So, like, what is like when you're just driving around and you're going to sing a song? What songs do you sing? There will often be songs on Grace. They will. They will be usually.
The words of a hymn. Yeah, I love memorizing the words, and I quote them to Cynthia in the evening. Here is one you've never heard: Majestic sweetness sits enthroned upon the Saviour's brow, his head with radiant glories crowned, his lips with grace o'erflow. His lips with grace overflow. He saw me plunged in deep distress and flew to my relief.
For me he bore the shameful cross, and carried all my grief, and carried all my grief. To him I owe my life and breath and all the joys I have. He makes me triumph over death, and will save me from the grave. It will save me from the grave. Since from His bounty I receive such proofs of love divine, had I a thousand hearts to give, Lord, they would all be Thine.
They would all be Thine. I, I, I will sing hymns. And I will sing "Amazing Grace." Yeah. And I will sing "Over a Thousand Tongs." Yes. I will sing "And Can It Be?" I will sing "Shall We Gather at the River?" Oh yes.
Where bright angels' feet have trod, with its crystal tide, forever flowing from the throne of God. Yes. Yes, we'll gather at the river, the beautiful, beautiful river. We'll gather with the saints at the river. That flows from the throne of God, Greg.
It is an absolute pleasure to know you, and to see you stay so committed, so in love with Jesus, and still reading, still probing the theology, still preaching faithfully, and and delivering. On a regular basis, the truth of God's word don't ever stop until you have to. That's when I stopped. I was ninety. I'd finished the five messages out of Second Timothy, which I had to memorize.
You memorize them loosely, you know. You don't memorize them word line by line, but I want to take Second Timothy because it's Paul's final. Swan song, and yes, and I I stepped down from the pulpit at age ninety, and left the church after twenty six years. You've been at your church, fifty two years. Good for you.
Well, thank you, thank you for taking the time. And the same to you, Greg. My pleasure, of course. I really mean that. Let me pray, dear Father.
Thank you for your grace. That found us when we were not looking, and saved us when we were unworthy, and changed us when we were so stubborn, and softened us when we were so hard. Thank you for giving us such magnificent wives. To help shape our lives and to give us someone to love, to learn from, to care about, and to care for. Thank you for our families, for Greg's sons, and for the one who left and the one who's still with him.
Bless them abundantly as he and Kathy continue to live for you. Lift your name up through his words as he speaks them, whether from a pulpit or quietly with a friend, or in gatherings where he's asked to speak. May he lie low and let Christ be exalted, and use him mightily in ways he couldn't even imagine right now. And bless millions through Him. I pray.
Thank you for these fleeting moments we've had together. They mean so much to us. They make us love you more, Lord, and make us love one another more as well. In the name of Christ, who loved us and gave Himself for us, we pray. Amen.
Amen. Such a memorable conversation between Pastor Greg Laurie and his guest, Pastor Chuck Swindoll.
Well, Pastor Greg, you and Chuck talked about so many things today, but I know you had a further word you wanted to share.
So, as you've been listening today, maybe you've thought to yourself, "Man, I wish I had this relationship with God that is being talked about." Well, you can. He's only a prayer away. You see, becoming a Christian it doesn't take years. It doesn't take months. It doesn't take weeks.
it It doesn't even take hours. It can happen in a moment. The Bible describes it as turning from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God. But before that happens, the Bible says you need to have your eyes open. And here's the amazing thing.
It's just like in a flash, a light goes on, and you say, "This is all true." That's how it happened for me. I just heard the gospel, and all of a sudden, I realized this is all true. And maybe you've realized that as well. Let me ask you. Would you like Jesus Christ to come into your life?
Would you like Him to forgive you of your sin? Would you like this relationship with God we've been talking about today? If so, why don't you just pray a simple prayer with me? You could pray it out loud if you like, but say this to God, Lord Jesus: I know that I'm a sinner, but I know that You're the Savior, who died on the cross for my sin. And rose again from the dead, Jesus.
I turn from my sin, and I choose to follow you from this moment forward as my Savior and Lord, as my God and friend. Thank you for hearing this prayer, and I ask this in Jesus' name, Amen. Did you just pray that prayer? If so, I want to send you at no charge what we call a new believer's Bible. Here's Dave to tell you more, and let me just say.
Congratulations! You made the right decision. Yeah, yeah, that's right. And to help you begin to live this new life, this life where you're at peace with God and you can begin to enjoy the peace of God, let us send you Pastor Greg's New Believer's Bible. It's the perfect resource for someone who's new to the faith, and we'll send it free of charge if you'll contact us and request it.
Call one eight hundred eight two one thirty three hundred. That That's one eight hundred eight two one three three zero zero, or go online to harvest.org and click No God.
Well, Pastor Greg, we have so many people who help us. They they help by praying for us. They help by investing, by being partners with us. In fact, we've got a group called Harvest Partners who help on a regular basis. Yeah.
When they give, let me ask you an insider question: When they give, how is that money used? That's a great question.
So the answer is. It goes into our ministry, which is quite diverse. It goes into our crusade ministry, and by the way, we just wrapped up a crusade in July at Angel Stadium. And we saw the Lord work. We saw people committing their life to Christ as they have for 35 years.
It's absolutely amazing. It goes to our radio broadcast. It goes to reaching people through our television ministry, and other opportunities that come our way. I have to tell you, we have some amazing opportunities in this coming year. And I'll tell you more about them as we get closer to it.
But what a great time to be bringing the gospel! I'm so thankful as we have just celebrated our 250th birthday as a nation that we have the freedom in the United States of America to preach the gospel and to teach the word of God. Never take that freedom for granted. It really is a privilege. That's why so many people want to come to our country, the land of the freedom.
And the home of the brave, we truly are blessed by God, and we want to continue to take advantage of that freedom that we have in America, and declare the ultimate freedom that people can have in a relationship with God through Jesus Christ—freedom from the power of sin, freedom to live a new life, glorifying God.
So, stand with us if you would. And invest in our ministry so you can share in the fruit of what we're doing in the months, in years to come. And in advance, let me say thank you. And one way you can do that is by becoming a harvest partner. Harvest partner is someone that just stands with us on a monthly basis and gives to our ministry.
Man, that. Make such a difference.
So, thank you if you're a Harvest Partner, and for those of you that have not become one yet, would you prayerfully consider it? It would really make all the difference, honestly.
So, thanks again. And God bless you all. And you can get started by calling us at one eight hundred eight two one three three hundred. Call any time one eight hundred eight two one three three zero zero, or go online to harvest dot org.
Well, next time, a practical message from Pastor Greg. We all need to hear. It's called how to deal with trials and temptations. Join us here on a new beginning with Pastor and Bible teacher Greg Laurie.
