Struggling to answer someone's questions about your faith, Pastor Greg Laurie recommends a great book to help. You know, I remember the first time that I shared my faith. I was so young, and I was challenged by an atheist. I did not have a clue as to what I should say. And I wish I'd had a copy of this book by Frank Turek and Norman Geisler, and the title of it is "I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist." And we want to send you this book for your gift of any size, available at.
Harvest. dot org. The hardest thing we've gone through is is when our son died in automobile accident, and I would say that was the moment that God was with me. Coming up today on a new beginning, Pastor Greg Laurie has a candid conversation with Pastor Chuck Swindoll. Good counsel is just ahead.
When you have been hurt deeply, you become more thoughtful, more compassionate. More caring—that is the making of a good shepherd. This is the day when the lost are found. This is the day for a new beginning. Amazing grace, how sweet the sound.
When you get a couple of pastors together, what do they talk about? Church attendance? Favorite Bible translation? Where do you buy your pulpits?
Well, today on a new beginning, we'll see it goes much deeper. It's about honoring God, the responsibility of teaching God's people, and being a faithful servant over the long haul. Today during Legends Week, Pastor Greg Laurie has the honor of speaking with Pastor Chuck Swindoll, his longtime friend and respected elder statesman.
Now you've you've you lived over these years, yeah, and you've watched changes take place. Yes, how have things changed in the realm of evangelism? Yeah, is your approach pretty much the same? Yeah, or have you altered it to fit this? Particular era in which we live, and how is that different from the way it once was when you first got underway?
Very excellent question. I think that. The essentials don't change. It's you know. I once asked Billy Graham, Billy, if an older Billy could speak to a younger Billy.
Yes. What advice would you give yourself? And he said, "I would tell myself to preach more on the blood and the cross because that's what the power is." So I think. You always need to remember that, as Spurgeon would say, as an evangelist, you make a beeline to the cross. The powers and the cross, in his death, his resurrection, the need for the person to repent of their sin, put their faith in Christ.
But everything has changed so dramatically. Not only in the I've been preaching for over fifty years now, and it's changed a lot over the years. But I would say, even in the last. Ten years, it's changed dramatically. Like when I started doing evangelistic crusades, you know, the internet was just coming into place.
There were no cell phones yet, but today. With the cell phone, you know, and with the young generation, and the impact that's had on them, it's it's a very different time. Their attention span is very limited. Yes, I find that they're almost completely biblically illiterate. There was a time when you could say Noah's Ark or Adam and Eve in the Garden references from Scripture.
This young generation don't even know what you are talking about.
So I find I have to define everything as I go. I don't assume if I say you need to accept Jesus Christ into your life, I don't assume they even know what that means, and I find that I have to break that down and explain what I mean by each of those terms, even accept Christ into your life, or you know.
So I find. It's like Paul in Mars Hill. He took time to assess the culture. He took time to study the philosophies that were popular, and then he used the story of the unknown god they erected for the one god they may have missed among the thousands that they worship. He said, "Today, I want to talk to you about the unknown god," but he built a bridge to his audience.
But then, you know, he brings them the message of the gospel.
So I find that I'm constantly adapting. And I use cultural references to to start. But it always comes down to the power of the scripture. When were you led? When were you led to move it into a true crusade, where it became Harvest Crusade, which is known all over the country now.
Well, I was. I always gave invitations for people to come to Christ, like you do, Chuck, and your messages. Yes, and and we would do little outreach events here and there. But Pastor Chuck Smith. In around 1989, asked me to come down and speak at his church and do sort of an outreach Bible study for youth, which he did on Monday nights.
And it began to grow; it got really large. We were overflowing, and it was Chuck's idea to go to a larger venue. And he said, "Let's go to a bigger venue and do a crusade, like a Billy Graham crusade." And I said, "Okay, well that'd be great, Chuck. We, you know, I could speak and some of the other guys could speak." He said, "No, I think you should just speak." And then I said, "Well, where do you want to go?" And he said, "The Pacific Amphitheater, which seated around, I don't know, eighteen thousand people." Yeah, well, that's a pretty big place. Chuck and he said, "Well, we serve a pretty big God, and so we took a step of faith and went there.
We broke their attendance records in the first week, and then the next year we went to Angel Stadium, and we've been there ever since. Yeah, that's where I've known it in Angel Stadium. And what a great, great crowd you have! What what interest there is!
Well, we you were with us yes when we did it here in Texas yes AT and T Stadium." And that was the largest crusade we've done with over a hundred thousand people in attendance. It was a wonderful experience. It was great.
Well, you know, so yeah, that's it was his idea, and you know, you've heard the expression: if you see a turtle on a fence post, you know he didn't get there by himself, right? Right.
So I think I look at my life and I see these things that God has done, and I I just realized I could have never done these things. But but I know that the Lord has opened the doors, not unlike you, because I've heard you say you never planned on having a radio ministry, never. You never planned on becoming a writing ministry, a writing ministry, never, never, or the chancellor of never DTS, right? Or starting a new church later in life, right? That was a very bold move, right?
I was fifty nine when I went to Dallas Seminary, and then I started the church here. I was getting up in years by then, and they wanted me to come as president. I I couldn't say no fast enough. And Cynthia said to me, "Why'd you say no?" I said, "Because I'm I'm not presidential. I'm not one of those you know wonderful, beautiful minds that you know walk around a seminary." And there, there, she said, "They know who you are." They they know what they're asking, and I said, "It's just I'm I'm just that's just not me." Well, they came again, and I said no, and they came the third time.
And long story short, I finally came to realize that God wants me to say yes, yes, and He wanted me to go as a shepherd. I could do that, and I shepherded the students. I even shepherded the faculty. And they had not been.
Some of those men said to me, "They never had heard a grown man say to them, 'I love you' in their lifetime." Yes, and I regularly told him that. And that isn't—you have to be brilliant to do that, right? But you do have to be vulnerable, yes, and you have to be willing to say that to another man. Greg, I've had men just weep when they hear that, and when I got ready to leave the seminary, several came into my office at different times, and they just cried because they said we've never had someone who really loved us like this. Which tells you that's what really cuts through, isn't it, Greg?
That's what really reaches the heart. More of this moving discussion between Greg Laurie and Chuck Swindoll in just a moment. We love to hear stories of how lives have been impacted through the teaching of God's Word. Like this one. Thank you, Pastor Greg, for teaching the Bible so clearly and breaking the Bible down for me to understand it better.
I also like the humor you add to your sermons. I sign up to receive your daily devotionals, and they're so encouraging to me. I've also shared them with a close family member who gets very anxious about life. Your studies have helped us both. Thank you again.
When we hear from you, it's not only a blessing; it also confirms that the program is making an impact. If you have a story to share, would you email Pastor Greg? Send your email to Greg at Harvest dot org. That's Greg at Harvest dot org. You've joined us for a special program today.
It's Legends Week on a New Beginning, and today Pastor Greg is speaking with Pastor Chuck Swindoll.
Some of their most personal comments are just ahead. You're rolling along teaching the Bible, and the group is growing, and and Chuck has got ideas for you. Yeah, where does Kathy fit into all of this?
Well, I was doing this little Bible study, and there were these three girls that showed up. It was Kathy and her two sisters, and she caught my eye, Kathy. And it's almost like a light was shining down on her. It was actually her sister holding the flashlight over her head. Not you are a preacher, but you are also a red blooded American boy.
Yeah, and I don't want people to think I am just like checking out girls while I am preaching. But I did notice Kathy, and afterwards I said to her, "Hey, would you like to go?" Out and get some dessert after church, and she said yes, and so we went. The three of us went out, or the four of us—her three sisters and me. Then the next time I spoke. I said the same thing.
Want to go out and get some dessert? And she got her sisters, and we went out. Then the third time, I said, "Well, let's go get some a dessert after church." And she said, "I'll get my sisters." And I said, "I don't want your sisters. I just want to go with you." And so, Chuck, we we we fell in love pretty quickly. But there could not be two more opposite people than Greg and Kathy.
Really? Oh, I we're just the exact opposite. And I'm very I'm messy. She's very neat. I'm usually very close to being on time.
She's sometimes late. She, you know, she's cute. I'm fat. What can I say? We're different.
But, but we had three big breakups. Like I don't want to be see you ever again, and we'd break up. Then we then we would get back together, and then we'd break up again.
So we got it all out of our system. Got all the breakups out the way, and then we got married, and we have celebrated fifty-two years of marriage together. Congratulations! And so, you know, I couldn't have done what I do without her. She's my number one counselor.
Good. She'll always tell me the truth. Good. And yeah, we need wise for that reason.
Sometimes a little too much. Oh, I know, but you got to have it. Yeah, and so she. And she's been with me through all of it. You know, we went the hardest thing we've gone through is is when our son died in an automobile accident two thousand eight.
Yes, it was. Yeah, and it was. I couldn't believe it when I heard it. Yeah, everything in my life at that moment stopped. I am serious.
We prayed for you as a family, and Cynthia and I as a couple because we identified. We have two boys and we have two girls, and so. I couldn't imagine losing one of them, just like you couldn't. If you don't mind, right? Walk through that with us.
Well, we have two sons, Christopher and Jonathan. Yes, and Christopher was a little bit of a wild boy. He was always a good boy, but. He had a wild side. He went for a time where he was a prodigal, walking away from the Lord.
Always was respectful and loving, and a good son. But he was away from the Lord. He made a recommitment to Christ, and and was walking with the Lord. And it got married and had a baby, our first granddaughter, Stella. He he became a very talented designer, and he was the lead designer at our church in Riverside.
He was on his way to church early in the morning, about nine oh one, and he he collided with a Caltrans vehicle, and my wife was having a Bible study with his wife Brittany and some other ladies. And Brittany was texting Christopher, like, "What are you doing?" or something. He wasn't answering, and I texted him, and no answer. Then I was calling the church; I couldn't get an answer. I knew something was terribly wrong, but I didn't know what it was.
And then people started showing up at my house, and then finally, some of our pastors told me that Christopher went to be with the Lord, and it was like. It was, you know, I don't know how to describe it. It's like all the air left the room. Yeah, it's like time stopped. I collapsed, and and I did.
I just thought my world. I, you know, I'm a Christian. I'm a pastor. Yeah, but I thought my world just ended. My like, how do you survive this?
I have no idea. I felt if words could kill you, I could have died from hearing those words. And Kathy saw me and actually took my face in her hands. And she said, "It's going to be okay." And there is only one person who could have said that to me, and it was her. And okay, meaning not that this is good.
No, I understand. But we will survive this. We will make it. We'll make it because I, I just like, how do you survive this? And even though as a pastor, I presided over many services, sadly, many for I know children who died.
I thought, well, I know a little bit about this. It's quite different when it's your own. It's completely different. Yeah. But you know, here's the interesting thing.
I, I just fell on the floor and I prayed a job-like prayer. And I said, "Lord, you gave him to us, and I give him back to you." And people have asked me, "When have you felt the presence of God more than any other time in your life?" And I would say that was the moment that God was with me. You know, His strength is made perfect in weakness. Yeah. And and I was listening interestingly, Chuck.
You kind of play a role in this in your teaching from a distance. I was listening to your teaching on the radio. And you talked, and I don't remember the exact quote. It might be a Tozer quote, but it's something before God can use a man, He has to hurt him. Does this ring a bell?
Yeah, Tozer. It is doubtful God can use anyone greatly until He has hurt him deeply. Yes, that's a hard one. That's a tough one. Yeah, I've had some people say I don't believe that.
Yeah, that makes God cruel. On the contrary. When you have been hurt deeply, you change, Grace. You deepen. Yes, you deepen.
You get quiet. You become more thoughtful, more compassionate, more caring, more understanding. Yes, that is the making. Of a good shepherd. There's a Scottish saying: "Some things are better felt than felt." Yeah.
People can tell when you have a heart. You don't get a heart by taking a course on how to get a heart. You don't read a book on here's how to develop a heart. You go through. The heartbreaks of life, and out of that emerges an incredible world that never had been developed before.
Yes, so that you have a capacity now that few have, because you have lost someone so close to your own heart. You'll never forget it, and prepares you to touch the lives of those who come with that empty, dreadful expression. I feel lost. I feel like I can't go on. I feel like I've I've reached the end, and you can say you're you're going to make it.
Yeah. And let me tell you how I know you, and you can tell them your story. Yes, I love another Tozer quote, and you'll love this. May not the inadequacy of much of our spiritual experience be traced back to our habit of skipping through the corridor of the kingdom like children in the marketplace, always chattering about everything. But pausing to learn the true value of nothing, I love that quote.
You've learned the true value of life, and the true meaning of death, and grief, and sorrow, and bone deep pain. There aren't words you can use to describe what you and Kathy endured. You may try, but only those who have lost one of their own will say that's exactly the way it was with me. Yeah, gives you a capacity, a depth, and. That may explain, Greg, why even though you may not have had all the academic training, you may have wished you would have had, or you may not have had all the breaks that you would love to have had, or those first seventeen, eighteen, twenty years of your life, you know, at the at the knee of some godly individual.
Wait, wait, wait. You you've had the Lord Jesus Christ. Right there, in the depth of your life, at moments that defied explanation, as he reached in and quietly developed you in ways you would not have been developed. Job writes. Job twenty three ten through twelve, get this.
But he knows the way that I take. Yes, when he has tried me, I will come forth as gold. My foot has held his steps. His way have I kept and not declined. Neither have I turned back from the command of his lips.
I have esteemed. Prized, valued, the words of his mouth more than my necessary food. That's why, in deep grief, you lose your appetite. You're feeding on divine manna that comes to minister to you from the heavenlies. Provided for you by the Lord your God.
I so respect you for going through it and and being able to talk about it and letting it change you. I love Corey Ten Boom's statement: "Give the gospel regularly, and when necessary, use words." You're giving the gospel right now, even though you're not saying a word. You're modeling it when you when you get alongside people and and you put your arm around them and you tell them you understand. You're helping them see a side of Christ they have not seen before, and you're not saying much at all.
Well, thank you for all that you said. That was just so powerful, and I know that's going to be a blessing to so many people, as it was to me personally. Pastor Greg Laurie and Pastor Chuck Swindoll, with some very moving comments today here on a new beginning, and they'll be back with important closing thoughts in a moment.
Well, Pastor Greg, somebody may be listening right now who's facing their own trials or tragedies or difficult challenges. They don't particularly count themselves as religious, but boy, they could sure use some help about now. Yes, sometimes God will let us go through hardship so He'll get our attention. The psalmist said, "Before I was afflicted, I went astray, but now I have kept Your word." So maybe something's happening in your life that's caused you to look up, as in looking up to God, and you're saying, "Help! Listen, that's not a bad place to be.
In fact, that's a really good place to be." It's been said, when you get to the end of yourself, you get to the beginning of God. Do you feel like you're at the end of yourself right now? Then why don't you pray? In fact, I would like to lead you in a prayer. Maybe you've never prayed before.
You don't even know how to start praying. That's okay. Prayer is just talking to God. Let me lead you in a simple prayer. You could pray it after me.
In fact, and this is a prayer where you're asking God to. Enter into your situation, but more significantly, you're asking Christ to enter into your life. See, that's what being a Christian is—it's having Christ living inside of you. It's a relationship, not some religious thing.
So, if you would like a relationship with God, if you would like God to walk with you through your times of difficulty, you could pray this prayer after me right now. Just pray these words, if you would. Lord Jesus, I'm scared, and I need your help. And I'm asking you to enter my life. I'm asking you to forgive me of my sin.
I know that you died on the cross for my sin and rose again from the dead, but I want to receive you now, as my Savior and my Lord.
So I invite you into my life. And I choose to follow you from this moment forward. Thank you for hearing this prayer, and thank you for answering this prayer. In Jesus' name, I pray. Amen.
Amen. And listen, if you have just prayed that prayer along with Pastor Gregg, and you've meant those words sincerely, the Lord has heard you and has forgiven you of your sin. And we want to welcome you into the family of God. Let us help you begin living for the Lord each day. Pastor Gregg would like to send you his New Believers Bible.
It's in an easy-to-understand translation and has scores of helps to get a new believer started.
So get in touch and we'll. We'll send you the New Believers Bible free of charge. Call us at one eight hundred eight two one thirty three hundred. That's one eight hundred eight two one three three zero zero, or write a New Beginning Box four thousand, Riverside California nine two five one four, or go online to harvest dot org and click the words No God. You know, Pastor Greg, I've read so many listener letters over the years where folks have said that they pray for you.
Many say they pray for you on a regular basis, and I know that means a lot to you. Yes, that's one of the most encouraging and and actually helpful things they can do, isn't that right? Absolutely. You know, when people come up to me and say I pray for you all the time, some have even said we pray for you every day. Wow, I am humbled.
I'm blessed, I'm thankful, and I need your prayers more than you know.
So, if you do pray for me and our family and our ministry, thank you so much for that. And as you pray, I would ask you to pray about one other thing, if you would please. Would you pray about giving to our ministry? You know, giving of our finances is a very spiritual thing. You know, Jesus said, "Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also." If you want to see where a person's priorities are, look at where they spend their money, and when we invest in the work of the kingdom of God.
We're laying up for ourselves treasure in heaven.
So we have this really cool program we put together called Harvest Partners, and what it means is these are folks that simply not only give to our ministry, but they give on a monthly basis.
So we can depend on their gifts, and that helps us to respond to new opportunities to bring the word of God and to preach the life-changing message of the gospel.
So pray about that if you would. Keep praying for us, and if the Lord directs you, become a harvest partner as well. In in advance, let me say thank you so much. Yeah, yeah, that's right. And as the Lord leads, we hope you'll call us so we can explain more and help with the details.
Our number is one eight hundred eight two one three three hundred. That's one eight hundred eight two one three three zero zero, or write a new beginning box four thousand, Riverside California nine two five one four, or go online to. Harvest dot org.
Well, next time, more from Pastor Greg's discussion with Chuck Swindoll. But before we close, Pastor Greg asked Chuck how we can all pray for him and his wife. We'll celebrate seventy one years next month. Congratulations, y'all! Pray for Cynthia.
Yes, she suffers with. Dementia, and it's slowly, slowly, I'm watching that that beautiful mind fade. I hold her in my arms every day. I caress her. I tell her what she means to me.
We had such a marvelous romantic marriage. And fun, and and travel, and so many of the things that she came up with, and and they worked out beautifully. And so, my advice to you: love Kathy. Yes. Tell her often how much.
Set aside time for romance. Splurge a weekend or two, or a few weeks of the year, and really tell her it's for you. This is for you. I can never ever repay you, so this is for us to enjoy together. Because she may not always be exactly as she is today, and you will never forget those times.
I'm so glad, Sinti, I did that. Thank you. Thank you for taking the time. And the same to you, Greg. My pleasure.
