Struggling to answer someone's questions about your faith, Pastor Greg Laurie recommends a great book to help. You know, I remember the first time that I shared my faith. I was so young, and I was challenged by an atheist. I did not have a clue as to what I should say. And I wish I'd had a copy of this book by Frank Turek and Norman Geisler, and the title of it is "I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist." And we want to send you this book for your gift of any size, available at.
Harvest.org. Coming up today here on A New Beginning, Pastor Greg Laurie speaks with Pastor Chuck Swindoll on the incredible care and providence of the Lord. God had a plan for us even before we were born, and I can see, like that psalm it says, in my mother's womb you formed me. Yes, and I can see that even the bad things that happened to me in my life were preparing me to see my need for Christ. Isn't it remarkable?
His hand was On you all along. Yes. Each of us is influenced by others. There's no doubt about it. We need to choose our influencers well.
And this week on A New Beginning, we're hearing from some gentlemen who have influenced millions to walk more closely with God. As we present Legends Week. Earlier, we heard war hero Louis Zamperini describe his incredible journey, and we heard Pastor Chuck Smith speak of his journey of faith. Today, Pastor Greg Laurie meets up with another remarkable man of God. Hey, everybody!
I'm really excited to be in studio with a really a living legend. One of the greatest Bible teachers of all time, one that has been a blessing to me for decades. I've listened to him, his radio show, of course, his podcast, and much more. He's a prolific author. He's on two thousand radio stations.
Insight for Living is the name of his program. I'm here with Pastor Chuck Swindoll.
Well, it's an honor to be with you, Greg. And how long have we known each other? Oh my goodness!
Well, it may be the '80s. I mean, I've been listening to you so long. I remember when your radio show was called. New standards, living.
Well, you do go back, yeah. Then you became Insight for Living. That was nineteen seventy-seven. Yes, and then seventy-nine, we changed to Insight for Living. Yes, yeah, yeah.
But until this day, I listen to you all the time. I hate to say this, don't take it the wrong way, but I listen to you, and you put me to sleep.
Okay, but but in the best way possible. I have people tell me that all the time.
Well, I say I put people to sleep. Like my anesthesiology, yeah, they go right out, man. Yeah, no, but it's you're you know you're teaching. I believe Chuck, and I've said this publicly. I believe that you are the the greatest living preacher that I know.
I mean, I mean, it's hard to say the greatest because we all have certain preachers we love for different reasons, but. But just kind of.
Well, you've only heard about three or four, so on one of them. I've heard many preachers, many preachers. I love to listen. You know, though I am a preacher, I love to listen to preaching. Yep, and I love to read.
And a lot, a lot of the people I listen to are no longer alive. You know, I I love to. I found some guy that does an AI version of Spurgeon sermons.
So it's like you know, it's reading the sermons of Spurgeon. And they're so rich and deep. Oh yeah, you know. But I'm a Persian fan. I am too.
Well, I feel what you do so well, and there's a phrase you use. Oh, you offer theology without apology. Yeah, I like that. Yep, but anyway, I got to California, and you had you'd lived there all your life. Yes, and I got there in seventy one.
Right, so we got underway in that north central part of Orange County. Yes, and I was there for the explosion, and you were too. You were part of the explosion, and I I want to go back. Yes, in your life, very early. Tell us a sort of a quick and dirty analysis of your beginning, your home, your your your world, when you were lost.
Yeah, and how you became a Christian.
Okay.
Well, I was born in 1952. I didn't find out till much later that because there was a man's name on my birth certificate that I found out later was not my biological father, and in fact. I was the product of a one night stand. My mother was incredibly beautiful, and Chuck, that's why I'm so handsome. Is that right?
Yeah. I wondered what it was. Yeah. Boy, that's great.
Now, she, my mother, was literally a dead ringer for Marilyn Monroe, and I'm not exaggerating. Oh my! She really was. She was a man magnet, so she was married and divorced seven times. And she she was from a Southern Baptist family, raised going to the church.
But she was the prodigal child, and she went out and got married over and over again.
So she had a fling in Long Beach, and I was conceived. And so she married a man quickly, put his name on my birth certificate, and I found that out much later. But but she was also a raging alcoholic. And when I say an alcoholic, I mean she drank to excess every night, where she would pass out.
So in many ways, I had to grow up quickly and become the almost like the adult, even though I was a child. You're the only child.
Well, she. I have a half brother, but. He was not with us for most of my childhood. He lived with his father.
So you kind of raised yourself. I, in many ways, I did. I jokingly tell people, "We know I was raised by wolves." And I mean, I had no one to teach me anything.
So I had to fend for myself. I learned to think for myself. It was I had to develop survival skills, and I had to look out for my mother because. She would drive really drunk. In fact, one night I wasn't with her.
This night she drove over the median into an oncoming lane, and the steering wheel almost cut her in half, and she almost died. But she, you know, that she just lived this tumultuous life, and so. But you know, you look back and you realize that, you know, God had a plan for us even before we were born. Yeah. And and I can see, like the psalmist says, in my mother's womb you formed me.
Yes, and and I can see that even the bad things that happened to me in my life were preparing me for what I needed to do, which was to see my need for Christ, which happened at the age of seventeen.
So fast forward, I unfortunately followed in my mother's footsteps. I was drinking myself, partying. Then I got into drugs. And and it was I are even before I was a Christian. I knew drugs was a dead end.
I didn't want to go that way. And it was almost like process of elimination. Chuck, like, well, I know the answer is not in my mother's lifestyle. I know the answer isn't in the lifestyle I've chosen. What is it?
And on my high school campus, the Jesus movement was happening. Yeah, and all these young kids were coming to Christ. And I happened upon one of their meetings on the front lawn of my high school campus, Newport Harbor High School in Newport Beach, and and there was they were singing worship songs, and and there was right there at the school, right there at school, yeah. And I found out an interesting thing. Normally, they met in the science room at lunchtime for their little Bible study, but the air conditioner broke that day, so they went outside on the front lawn.
I would have never gone into a classroom, to see this. I came across it. I sat down at a distance, close enough to hear what they were saying, but far enough away where people wouldn't think I'm becoming a Christian, because I had no intention of doing that. But I looked at them singing. I looked at the peace they seemed to have, and then a guy got up to speak, and he gave a little gospel presentation.
And one statement stuck with me. He said, "Jesus said, 'You're either for me or against me.'" And I looked at the Christians, and I thought, "Well, I'm not one of them. Does that mean I'm against Jesus?" But I knew so little about Jesus. My knowledge of Jesus was. Watching the Ben Hur movie.
Oh, I see. And when I realized that I could have a relationship with Jesus Christ, this preacher whose name was Lonnie Frisby invited people to come to Christ. I went forward, and I prayed, and that was the day that Christ came into my life. How old were you? Seventeen, man.
Yeah, but I thought so. You you didn't have a Bible. No, you didn't have any training whatever in the scriptures. I I don't think I'd ever open the Bible in my. Had you ever been to a church?
I had with I lived with my grandparents for a while when my mother was out running around, and I went to church with them a few times.
Okay, and but it didn't. I was just didn't click. It was just boring to me. Yep, it didn't make sense to me yet. Yep, so I was just a blank slate, which in some ways was good because.
I was. You didn't have to unlearn something. Didn't have to unlearn anything. That's so good. I had no negative impressions of the church.
I had no impressions of the church.
So I was ready to hear the word of God, and you know. And I thought about a parallel in our lives, Chuck, because I heard you say recently that. You, you know, your brother Orville and your sister Lucy. Each one was favored by your parents. That's right, but they sort of they didn't give you that attention, and your mother even said to you, "You were an accident because you weren't planned." Yeah, I didn't know what accident meant.
I was about five, forty-four or five. I thought. I didn't just have an accident. She can't mean that. Yeah, she said, "Well, you were a mistake." Well, that confused me even more.
When you are young, you hear that, you you think, "Okay," but here I am. Yeah, what you know? They they had a dilemma because my dad was wild about Lucy, and my mother just. Adored my brother. He was multiply gifted in so many ways.
Concert piano could have been a concert pianist. Man, he was playing the you know the heavy tunes. Yeah, the the the real concert pieces. Yeah, before he was fifteen. Wow.
Yeah, and a scientific mind and all that. And here I was interested in football, interested in sports, interested in girls, interested in other things going on around me. But none of that was interesting to my parents. They focused on the, and it wasn't hidden. It was overt.
Yeah, was that true in your family?
Well. My mom was just too preoccupied to really pay a lot of attention to me. I see, but you know, I think of the remember David, you know Jesse. Oh yeah, brought out all of his sons. Yeah, for the prophet Samuel said, "Don't you have any?" He said, "Oh, I do have one more." How many of us would do that?
Yeah, you have all your sons in there. If Samuel's coming for visiting, but David later wrote, "When my mother and father forsake me, the Lord will take me up." He did.
So I think then both of our lives, perhaps as hard as that was, that played into what we became and what we ended up doing. You know, it it did honestly, Greg. It it never really crippled me. Yeah, emotionally. I mean, of course, I missed the closeness that many have with their mother or with their dad.
But I didn't curl up in a ball and you know cry myself to sleep. I was never abused or or shoved aside or mistreated. But there was there was clearly. Favoritism that my brother never mowed the grass, never did what you know. My jobs were to throw out the trash, mop the floors, clean the bathrooms, especially the toilet and the basin and the tub.
And and he never did that. He he was busy practicing. Wow! And man, could he play that piano? Yeah.
My sister and I would do the dishes, and she would say to me, "I knew I shouldn't have stopped taking piano lessons because he never had to do the do the dishes." Pastor Greg Laurie and Pastor Chuck Swindoll will have more in just a moment. You know, I've heard people describe a trip to Israel as seeing the Bible actually come to life. Hey, everybody, Greg Laurie, and I've been to Israel many times, and I've led a lot of tours, and I have to say, that's absolutely true. Listen. When you're walking on the same stones that Jesus Himself walked on, well, that's something that's enriching to your faith.
It's not just a travel experience; it actually energizes and enhances your study of the Bible. Think of it this way: it's a vacation with a purpose. And we're going to be taking a tour of Israel, April 6 to 15, 2027. You can find out more at Israel.Harvest.Org. Step right into biblical history.
Join Pastor Greg for a tour of the Holy Land, April 6 through 15, 2027. Get details at Israel.Harvest.Org.
Well, we're eavesdropping today on a wonderful conversation between Pastor Greg and Pastor Chuck Swindoll. Let's listen. Your story goes on.
Well, yeah.
So I was attending Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa, and there was a little Bible study up in Riverside. I was living in Orange County. That's about forty-five minutes away, right? And it was young people, and they needed someone to come and take this study over. And I went up there and began to teach it.
I was—I'd been a Christian two years. You've been listening to Chuck Smith. I've been listening.
Well, Chuck got me onto some good books. You know, he said, "Oh yeah, Greg, you need to get a strong, exhaustive concordance." Good for him. And and then I started building my library. And at eighteen, I was reading Spurgeon, Martin Lloyd Jones, G. Campbell Morgan, Harry Ironside.
Good for you, man.
So I got going with some really good. Yeah. And you know the other thing, Chuck, because I didn't have any godly adults growing up, I wanted to hang around older people more than people my own age, because I wanted to learn. I found the same thing true. Yeah, and I really encourage younger preachers today.
You know, to find older preachers and older people in general who've walked with God and learn from them and listen to them. I had the privilege later in life of getting to know Billy Graham quite well. Yes, and as he was ending his crusade ministry, I was starting mine, and he asked me to help him work in his sermons and freshen his illustrations up.
So I got to spend a lot of time being with Billy in his home and on the road, and. And I can tell you personally, and I know you knew Billy, but I can tell you personally, he was everything you hoped he would be. He was down to earth, humble, godly. Honestly, one of the most humble men I've ever met. Yeah, he really was.
People don't believe them; it's the truth. Yeah, genuinely humble. He really was, and. I I was constantly asking him questions. I thought I've been enrolled in the finest evangelistic university on earth with access to the greatest.
Evangelist, I think of all time, apart from the apostles. Sure.
So I took full advantage of it. Oh yeah. And and I wrote a book about it, even called Billy Graham: The Men I Knew. But but he was he was he didn't like to talk about himself though. Yeah.
You know I know the feeling. Yeah. You'd ask him something and he'd say, "Well, tell me about yourself," and he'd always change the subject. Yeah. It was a genuine humility that he had, but.
I so I learned from godly older men and women because I was also looking for some parent figures like a father figure, a mother figure, but someone who was godly.
So you went to the church, yes, and you became the teacher.
Well, I didn't know it was going to be a church. Yeah, I was teaching. And then it began to grow, and they started calling me pastor.
Well, I hardly felt qualified to be a pastor at the age of twenty. I hadn't gone to Bible school or any kind of school seminary, seminary. Yeah, and I was studying every day, and I was, and I have to say, and sometimes I was, I was. Things I knew that I believed, but I was working them out theologically and teaching them that evening.
Sometimes, yeah, and so it was on-the-job training. But this, and I was looking for someone to take it over, and I couldn't find anyone to take it over. I was looking for someone older, more mature, and no one had the time or the interest. And I had this little flock of about a hundred people at that point. Then it became two and three hundred people, and that's pretty good size, man.
Yeah. So I thought, well, if I'm going to be their pastor, I better start preparing.
So I just did the best I could, sure, and as much as I could, yeah, learning from people like you. And others, and and you know, and here we are to the present day. Isn't it remarkable? His hand was on you all along. Yes, and you didn't realize it.
You know, and you come from that background. The last thing in your mind is you're going to become a leader of other people. Yeah, you're doing your best to figure out how you're going to be led and how you're going to live your life. Yes. Well, I wonderful.
I started out, Chuck. I wanted to be a graphic artist and specifically a cartoonist. Oh, did you really?
So, one of the ways I coped with the crazy life I was living is I would draw cartoons and I created my own little world of characters and, and that's what I aspired to be. I used to correspond with Charles M. Schulz, you know, the creator. Oh, yeah, sure. He would.
Very graciously, write me letters and encourage me. When you really, and one time I wrote him, I said, "Can I have a one of your comic strips signed?" I was so bold. I don't know why I was, and he sent it to me, and I lost it. Oh no! And I was in some.
I thought you were going to say you have it framed. No living room. I have a letter he wrote me framed, still. But I lost the cartoon strip, which would now be worth thousands and thousands of dollars. But not to mention the sentimental value.
Sure.
But but you know, I when I became a Christian, one of the first things I did was I drew a little comic book called Living Water, and it was an evangelistic tract, and that was sort of my first taste of ministry, where I was. Starting to develop not just as a pastor but also as an evangelist, and you're writing now. Yeah, not like you though. Don't you? You?
I heard you say once that you would write your sermons out. You didn't type them. You wrote them out. Is that correct? Oh yeah, yeah.
Did you ever become a typist? No, I I didn't type anything. I I wrote them out. Wow, that's Well, it's a great way to remember.
Well, thoughts disentangle themselves over the lips and through the fingertips. Nice. I learned that years ago, and and they they really do. And I I found if I could push those words through my fingers. I can make it happen.
So I got a knot on this finger. I'm left-handed, and on my fourth finger I have a knot. And my publisher would always say, "Let me see that knot. Let me make sure it's nice and big." He would always talk to me about that. Yeah.
Well, I think you have an extraordinary ability given to you by God, Chuck, and I'm sure it's all a part of how you were raised from your childhood to being in the Marine Corps.
Well, to you know your your hard Days as you started out ministry, yeah. But you take that which is complex and make it understandable to people. Yes, I love to do that. Yes, I love to do that. I love to take the difficult and complicated and make it so simple people can say, "Well, I I get it.
I I get it." Yes, and they they can't believe it's in the Bible when they realize how they can grasp this. I think there's a one of One of the secrets of speaking publicly is is simplifying. Yes, you gave a good quote earlier. Yeah, share that with our right viewers today.
Well, you were telling the story of when you went to a Billy Graham crusade. Yeah, and after he finished his message, you turned to Cynthia and said, "That was so simple." Yeah, Cynthia said, "Honey, he knows what he's doing." Yeah, and you were sort of, kind of, a little perplexed by. We were at the Angel Stadium, and and there were people sitting all around me, and not. Nobody's going to go forward. Was I wrong or what?
Yeah. So Billy.
So I mentioned to you that I saw an interview that Billy Graham did with David Frost, a British interviewer, and Billy said to David Frost, "I studied to be simple." And I think it's interesting because you know if you listen to the younger Billy Graham, he spoke rapidly, and some of his earlier messages almost were like Bible studies. Yeah. But as later in life, especially when he entered his final years, it got simpler. It did. Simpler.
It did. I saw him in New York at the final sermon. Yes. And he just turned to the crowd and he said, "God loves you." Then he turned to another section. God loves you, and he turned to the others.
God loves you.
Now he didn't have the full capacity he had when he was younger, but even a diminished Billy was better than most preachers. Oh yeah, because he had lived this godly life. Sure, he was almost like a prophet of God, just giving this simplified message. Remarkable.
Well, you obviously have developed the same thing. I try, and now you're in this gathering, and at some point along the way, you emerged into a church. Yes, it it continued to grow, and one day in the '80s, I got a call from some publication, and they said.
Well, as a pastor of a megachurch, and I'd never even heard that term. Yeah, I hadn't either. I I didn't know what that meant when I first heard that.
So suddenly, you find yourself. Pastoring a large congregation of thousands of people—it's not something I aspired to do. Frankly, I felt that God was calling me to be an evangelist for the first years of my ministry, but then it dawned on me that God had called me to do both. I was called to be a pastor and an evangelist. But I'll say this: I love to do crusades.
We still do them today. I love to speak. Give evangelistic messages, and they're quite different in their structure and delivery than a teaching. My favorite thing to do is to be at home with our church and just teach them the Word of God. That's my sweet spot, yeah, happy place in the pulpit.
You know, you've done your work, oh yeah, and and you know, and and you've and you're delivering that message. Open that book up, yeah, and you watch those faces light up. There's nothing like that. That's right. Pastor Greg Laurie and Pastor Chuck Swindoll talking about the joy they get when they get to teach the Word of God to the people of God.
We have a lot more to come from this discussion here on a new beginning, but you know, both of these men have a real heart for the gospel. They love to see lost souls find Christ.
So, in honor of their passion for the gospel, let's ask this question: Do you know Jesus personally? Pastor Greg, if someone doesn't know Christ, they can come to Him right now, can't they? That's right. The Bible says, "Whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved." So, think of it this way: maybe you're out in a rip tide in the ocean and you can't get your footing, and you're in trouble. And you see a lifeguard, call out for help, and the lifeguard will rescue you.
The same is true spiritually. You're drowning in your sin. You need help. Jesus. Will save you.
He will rescue you. But you must call out to him, and you know how you do that. You do it in prayer.
So let me just lead you in a simple prayer, and you can pray this prayer after me. You can pray it out loud if you like. And this is where you are calling out to Jesus to save you. Just pray this, Lord Jesus. I know I'm a sinner, and I know you are the Savior who died on the cross for my sin, and rose again from the dead.
Now, Lord, I turn from my sin and I put my faith in You. Be my Savior, my Lord, be my God and my friend. I choose to follow You from this moment forward. In Jesus' name, I pray. Amen.
Hey, if you just prayed that prayer, I want you to know that Christ Himself has come to live inside of you. And I have a resource I want to send you. It's called the New Believer's Bible.
So, the New Believer's Bible is the New Testament in the New Living Translation with hundreds of notes that I wrote that will encourage you in this commitment you are making to follow Christ. There's some other materials included as well in what we call the New Believer's Growth Pack. But let me get this new. Believers' Bible into your hands as quickly as possible. Here's Dave to tell you more.
Yeah, we'll be glad to send it all your way, free of any charge. If you've prayed along with Pastor Greg today, just ask for the New Believers' Bible when you call one eight hundred eight two one three three hundred. You can reach us anytime twenty four seven. Again at one eight hundred eight two one three three zero zero, or go online to Harvest. dot.org and click No God.
Well, Pastor Greg, let me let me read a listener comment that we recently received. It goes: I have been a Harvest partner for many years now, and see the impact you've made on many people who have become Christians. I am in awe. I thank the Lord for the continued successful ministry of Harvest on a daily basis. Thank you, Pastor Greg, for being used by God to change my life and redirect my paths.
Your example of Christianity has been so consistent. Isn't that encouraging that she says those nice things, but also that she believes enough in this ministry to become a harvest partner? What is a harvest partner?
Well, a harvest partner is somebody that gives to our ministry. On a regular basis, even on a monthly basis, and what I really appreciate about this listener, and if that person happens to be listening, let me just say to you personally, thank you so much. But what I really appreciated was when she said, "I've been doing it for years," and you know what? I also want to say this to this person, or any person that supports us in this way. You share in the fruit of what we are doing.
There's an interesting story in the life of David, where he was going against his enemy with his army. They were tired from battle, and a bunch of them said, "We just can't go into battle." And his army was already relatively small. They said, "We're going to have to sit this one out." Well, the remaining soldiers went into battle. The Lord blessed, and they were victorious. And when they returned with the spoils.
Of the battle, those who had fought said, "Don't give any to those people that sat this out." Well, the fact is, those folks who had sat it out on this occasion had fought in previous battles, and David said, "Hey, no, those that tarry by the stuff—that's King James. Those that hang out by our our possessions, share in this as well." And you know. The the reward, the blessing, goes to all those who participate. It goes to all of us that believe in the power of the gospel.
So when you give your part of the team, you're making it possible for us to reach more people with the gospel.
So would you tarry by this stuff? To put it in King James vernacular, would you invest in our ministry? And then we pray that you will share. And the reward of what God is doing is well, as Paul said, "It's fruit to your account, spiritual fruit to your account, laying up for yourself treasures in heaven." So carefully consider becoming a harvest partner. Today, yeah, that's right.
And we can take your call right now. It's a twenty four seven phone number one eight hundred eight two one thirty three hundred. Again, one eight hundred eight two one three three zero zero, or just go online to harvest dot org.
Well, next time, more of this fascinating discussion between Pastor Greg and Pastor Chuck Swindoll. Join us here on A New Beginning with Pastor and Bible Teacher Greg Laurie.
