Greg Laurie and Harvest Ministries recommend a book by a historical Jesus scholar, highlighting archaeological finds such as the Shroud of Turin, supporting the truth of Christianity. We want to send you this book by Dr. Jeremiah Johnston. It's simply called The Jesus Discoveries, and it's going to help you grow stronger in your faith and a great tool for you as you share your faith with others.
So order your copy of The Jesus Discoveries for your gift of any size. Get your copy at harvest.org. Hey everybody, Pastor Greg here with a very special guest. I don't know if you've seen those Indiana Jones films out there, but I have a living, breathing archaeologist in studio, Dave Q Music. I am not an archaeologist.
You couldn't be more off on that introduction. I'm a historical Jesus scholar, but I am aided significantly by many friends who are archaeologists around the world, especially the over 100 archaeological digs happening right now in the land of Israel.
So, my area of specialty is the historical Jesus, specifically the bodily resurrection of Jesus and how we can prove Jesus, both his existence, of course, but his ministry, and specifically what the gospel says, his death, burial, and resurrection.
So, kind of Indiana Jones, but kind of not. You know, funny thing, speaking of Israel, I met you in Israel for the first time. That's right. You were there with your father. You were just a young man.
That's right. I think you were on your way to get your education at that point. And now you, as you said already, are a historical Jesus scholar. And you've written a new book called The Jesus Discoveries: Ten Historic Finds That Bring Us Face to Face. With Jesus.
Now, I know that you've talked at great length, and you've also written a separate book on this topic about the Shroud of Turin. And you did not always believe. That was actually the shroud that was laid on the crucified body of Jesus. But then one day you decided to really study it. And you came to a different conclusion.
Tell us about that. Absolutely, Pastor Greg. And my book, Jesus Discoveries, actually kicks off with the Shroud of Turin because the Shroud is the most recognizable, most controversial, and most studied archaeological artifact in the world. There isn't a close second. 102 different academic disciplines, not just theologians or Bible scholars, but those from the scientific community, the medical community, even the forensic criminal community, have spent over 600,000 hours of peer-reviewed research to study the Shroud.
And they concluded that it is not man-made. There's no pigment, there's no dye. They cannot replicate how there is this surface-level image of a horribly crucified man that matches with perfect one-to-one correspondence the Description of how Jesus was brutalized under Emperor Tiberius and Pontius Pilate. And to be honest with you, my expertise in Oxford, I mean, I was conditioned to not believe in the shroud. But when I actually began to study, and what I mean by study, I mean read the actual scientific reports.
When Max Fry, a criminologist who participated in the Nuremberg trials prosecuting the Nazis, gave five years of his life to study the 58 pollen spores on the shroud. Wow. And trace that only 38 of those pollen spores bloom in the land of Israel only at the time of springtime and Passover. When I began to read that, my mind was open. When I saw that the blood type, Pastor Greg, is type AB blood.
If there was ever a priestly royal line, it would be type AB blood. That's Semitic blood. If you and I in the Middle Ages were trying to fake this, we wouldn't have known blood type. We wouldn't have known pollen spores. We would have to fake.
30 things 700 years ago to even get in the same ballpark of what we have in the Shroud of Turin. And so it leads me to the conclusion that yes, it has to be Jesus' burial cloth. What else would it be? Wow, that's a A stunning statement. To think that there is something like that out there that really proves everything the Bible says.
And the very detailed accounts found in the Gospels. I love the fact that Jesus did not use Chat GPT or Clod to tell me he loved me. He didn't send me a poem and say, roses are red, violets are blue, I love you, Jeremiah. No, he showed me in the most radical way possible how much he loved me by paying for my sin on the cross on April 3rd, 8033, in a way that left no room for doubt. When Romans 5, 8 says, and God demonstrated his love for you and me, and that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us, when I look at this cloth, this 14-foot-long burial cloth, now known as the Shroud of Turin, To me, I see the itemized receipt of all the ways in which Jesus purchased my redemption.
Those times that many in our audience, like me, we need to be reminded, does God really love me? I've sinned again. I've messed up again. I haven't filled, I haven't, man, I haven't reached the potential that I have. Does God still love me?
Yes, he does. And every time I need a reminder of that, I should look to the cross. And the fascinating thing about the burial cloth, the shroud, which is mentioned in all four gospels, is that we see all the hallmarks of what Jesus endured on the cross, that he lost one-third of his blood volume before he even got to the cross, that his body was out of joint, his shoulders were separated, that his body endured over 700 scourge lash marks. Every one of those testifies to his love for humanity, his love for all and any who will believe the facts of the gospel and be redeemed. And so for me as well, I'm also an addict of truth.
The most dangerous place that an individual can be. get to is when an individual stops seeking truth. You have to seek truth and find it at all costs. And I spell truth J-E-S-U-S. Jesus said, I am the truth.
I am the way. I am the life. And I love that. He uses that definite article. The definite article is the word the.
He is the truth. And when we seek truth, we ultimately find Jesus because Jesus is the author of all truth. And so that's why I was very happy to spend this time. And again, spending the time. Studying the shroud just simply has allowed me to understand at greater depths how much Jesus loves me.
I love your statement that the Shroud of Turin is Is an itemized receipt of how much Jesus loves you. And this is just one of your chapters in your new book called The Jesus Discoveries: 10 Historic Finds That Bring Us Face to Face with Jesus. Folks, if you want your own faith bolstered, and you want to have a tool to put into the hands of your non-believing friend who always peppers you with questions about your faith, this is the book you need. You know, the Bible says, God speaking, come, let us reason together. Or another translation puts it, come, let us argue this out, says the Lord.
You do have faith that you apply every day. Having said that, our faith is a logical faith. It's a reasonable faith. And really, it's a provable faith. That's right.
And faith is not some kind of nebulous thing that we fill up with like we're going to the gas station. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. I wanted to write a book for my five children. I have two teenagers and I have three nine-year-olds that are in the busyness of the cut and thrust of life. And they ask me things like, Dad, how do you really know Jesus existed?
How do you know he really died on the cross? How do you really know he rose from the grave? And so in many ways, Pastor Greg, this book is a love letter to my children that puts together nearly two decades of my experiences at some of the most exciting places on earth. I mean, archaeological digs, when you can look at places where these great discoveries that undergird the truth claims of Christianity, Christianity occurred, I want it in a very fast fashion because, again, my kids go screensaver in two minutes or less.
So, I wanted to have 17 very quick chapters that simply would guide the reader or guide that next gen by the hand of here's how we can prove that Jesus existed. This is not a book for scholars, this is a book for growing Christians. This is a book for moms and dads to gift to their kids and their grandkids. It's especially helpful for kids at college or even for the most seasoned believer just to know more about their faith because John's gospel ends this way: the very last verse of John's Gospel says, Jesus did many other things. If every one of them were written down, I suppose not even the whole world would have room for the books that would be written.
You know, when you look at the gospel, the gospels only contain about 26 days of the life of Jesus. Let that sink in for a minute, Pastor Greg. We have less than a month of Jesus's life, and I don't mean 26, 24-hour days. In a row. I mean, we just have parts, we have snippets, we have windows into about three weeks of the life of Jesus, and that was enough to turn the world upside down.
And yet, we are living in a time as we get closer to the second coming of Jesus Christ. We are seeing more and more evidences from the material culture, from archaeological digs that prove the truth claims of scripture.
So, why wouldn't we use that? No other religion has archaeology like Christianity. And the cool thing, Pastor Greg, about Christianity is Christianity, unlike all the other religions in the world, says, hey, you can test our belief against history. And that's what I love that this book is doing. It's just simply guiding the reader by the hand and encouraging their faith that their faith is rooted in evidence.
And one thing you brought up, Jeremiah, that's so important is our kids and our grandkids with their questions. You know, I think sometimes Christian parents think, oh no, my child is pushing back and they're not sure if these things are. True, but I've heard it said: doubt is not always a sign that a man is wrong. It could be a sign that he's thinking. You know, you want them to think for themselves, but sometimes we don't have the answers to those questions.
But you will now if you order this book. My heart immediately goes out to the parent, and this is why I wrote the book for the parents and grandparents out there that want to have quick-hitting facts that show that Christianity, if we cannot believe in the Jesus of the New Testament, don't believe in the Roman Empire, don't believe in Alexander the Great, don't believe in any of the Roman emperors. I give you all of these one-line zingers in the book, like I use on my kids, that just honestly leave them speechless for a few minutes. And then they come up with another doubt or another question. But I like to tell Justin, my 13-year-old, look, if we don't believe in Jesus, we shouldn't believe in any of the Roman emperors.
Do you realize, Justin? This is me talking to my 13-year-old. I have to appeal to Roman emperors for the same level of discoveries that we've had for Jesus of Nazareth. Do you realize? How amazing and impressive that is, speaking as a historian, not even speaking as, of course, I want to speak as a Christian, but just speaking as a historian.
We only have two sources for Alexander the Great, Arian and Plutarch. They're writing 400 years after Alexander the Great lives, and no one doubts Alexander the Great. No one doubts any of his, but you know. Those are our two best sources. 400 years later, what do we have with the Bible?
We have this embarrassment of riches of these amazing historian authors who write within one generation of Jesus' life. All of it was verifiable. The eyewitnesses were still alive. This is why I tell my kids Luke opens his gospel and he uses that beautiful Greek term autoptase. It's the word that we get autopsy from.
Luke says, you can have a certainty in your faith. We were given essentially an autopsy of these things to see if they really are true.
So, Jeremiah, there's an ancient bone box known as the James Osshawary. Yeah. And it mentions the brother of Jesus.
So how confident are scholars about its authenticity? And what does that mean for biblical reliability? This is fascinating because we know John chapter 7, verse 5 says that in Jesus' own lifetime, not even his brothers believed in him. We know according to 1 Corinthians 15, 3 through 8, that he appeared to James. I wish I could go back in time.
I hope someday we can time travel in heaven because I want to go to the resurrection appearance of Jesus appearing to his brother James.
Now, Pastor Greg, you're blessed with two sons. I'm blessed with four sons. Can you imagine Christopher thinking that Jonathan was the son of God, the sinless son of God, or vice versa? Can you imagine that? That would never happen.
I mean, what would it take for all of our audience listening? What would it take for you to believe that your brother was the sinless son of God? And you can put yourself in the middle. Immediately in the place of James. And we can see why James thought his brother Jesus was out of his mind.
Well, it took the physical, bodily resurrection of Jesus. For James to be convinced. And we know, thanks to Josephus, that in AD 62, about 30 years after the death of his brother Jesus, James is stoned to death, believing that his brother was the Messiah, the Son of God. We know he dies as one of the pillars of the church. And so what's fascinating about your question, the James ossuary, which is a bone box, it is a limestone bone box.
And yes, it has been verified. It's beyond all doubt in biblical scholarship that we have the actual bone box of James, who died for his faith in AD 62, believing his brother was the Son of God. Incised on the limestone box are the words, James, son of Joseph. Brother of Jesus. It provides the earliest archaeological link to Jesus' family, and it affirms also the historical reliability of James, the leader of the Jerusalem church and the martyr that I've mentioned.
Isn't it amazing in this phenomenal time of archaeology where so many new evidences are coming to light that we have discovered the actual bone box of James who died believing his brother was the Son of God? I think it's one of the most remarkable discoveries that we have in the Christian faith, and most people are not even aware we've discovered it. You know, for years skeptics would say of the Bible it's not really a true historical account because there's no historical evidence for some man named Pontius Pilate. And he's featured so prominently in the gospel accounts, especially as related to the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.
However, A discovery was made, an archaeological discovery that's known as the Pilot Stone that changed everything. Talk about this Pilot Stone. What is it and why does it matter? The Pilot Stone was discovered, really, like many discoveries on accident in the beautiful coastal city of Caesarea, Maritima, in the modern land of Israel. And why this is so fascinating, Pastor Greg, is if we went back 200 years to German what's called higher criticism, there were Bible scholars who denied Christ, denied the miraculous, like many today who are alive and call themselves Bible scholars.
And one in particular by the name of Bruno Bauer, who is a good friend of Karl Marx, by the way. Bruno Bauer said, You can't trust the New Testament. Pontius Pilate is a fiction. He is a fairy tale like Santa Claus or the tooth fairy. And wow, I'm sure Bruno Bauer was rolling over in his grave in the 1960s when archaeologists uncovered this beautiful pilato stone that very clearly in Seiston Rocks calls Pontius Pilate the prefect of Judea, which again gives evidence to his Reign in Judea 26 to 36 or 37 AD.
He would later, honestly, die by suicide, interestingly enough, but he did govern the land of Israel during the ministry and specifically the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. And it doesn't stop just there. Also, in the Jesus discoveries, same chapter on Pontius Pilate, I bring to light the fact that recently, very recently, at Herodium, a fascinating place where King Herod is buried, we have discovered a signet ring that is the Pilate signet ring that actually has Pontius Pilate on it, which is fascinating to think about. And so we have all of these different evidences. Of course, we have the evidence of scripture, which is plenty for us who believe the Bible.
But for those of us that have skeptical friends or children that ask questions, or you might have someone that's saying something totally inaccurate, like that German professor 200 years ago, oh, the Bible, there's nothing special about that. No, you can use this evidence to say, no, the Bible. Bible is about real people, real places, real events. And yes, Pastor Greg, it proves the reliability of the scriptures, but specifically the reliability of what the culmination of scripture is, the gospel, the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. And you know what I find interesting?
I was looking at this recently. I didn't even mean to do this as the author, Pastor Greg, but so many of these discoveries really are discoveries that validate the gospel, the central moments of the gospel, the passion of Christ, the resurrection of Christ. And I really wasn't even trying to do that. But in my opinion, these were the most important that we needed to highlight. And so many of them come out of the cut and thrust of that Easter weekend.
I'm reminded of a scene from. Hm which one of these films was it was one of the Indiana Jones films? I think it was the last one. Remember where they're going to identify the actual cup that Jesus drank from? Yes.
But let's talk about the real Jesus cup that you write about and why that's significant. This is fascinating. A marine biologist who I connected with in Oxford, where I did my PhD residency in 2008, is he is a marine biologist archaeologist.
So he does dives. He's a scuba diver to find things underwater. He's in the ancient city of Alexandria, which is totally submerged. And he comes across what's called a convivial cup, a cup that was used in some kind of pagan worship service. And in this cup, the cup is dated to the middle of the first century.
So think AD 50 in your mind. This is at least 10 years before the Gospels were written. It is the earliest reference that we have in the world of archaeology to the name of Christ. And on the outside of this cup, dated to AD 50, are these Greek words that were incised on the outside of the cup, Ho goestes die Christu, through Christ the enchanter.
Now, why this is fascinating is we have Jesus's name. being used in Egypt In AD 50, and this tells us that Jesus's fame as a miracle worker, a healer, and an exorcist was long distance. This reminds me of the fact of how powerful Jesus' name is. If you remember, Pastor Greg, in Mark chapter 7, 24 to 30, in the verses, we learned that a mother returned home to discover that a demon had left her body, her daughter's body, and she had been completely healed.
Well, Jesus did all of that without actually being in their physical presence. He was able to exorcise this demon over long distance. His power over demons was so remarkable that Matthew 9:33 says, Nothing like this has ever been seen in Israel. Luke 7:22, when John the Baptist is in prison, remember, Jesus tells John's emissaries, tell them the blind see, the deaf hear, and the dead are raised to life.
So Jesus was made famous. His name is used by all these pagan enchanters who realize: hey, if I insert this name of Jesus, it has more power. Isn't that fascinating? It's interesting, it's fascinating. And so, why this is unique for the Christian faith is this is the earliest archaeological artifact that we have with the name of Christ on it.
It predates any of the New Testament writings, and it signifies the power of Jesus's fame as a miracle worker and as a healer. Mind you, of those guys are called the sons of Skiva, who wanted to cast demons out in the name of Jesus, whom Paul preaches. That's right. So, and of course, they had no power to cast anything out. And even the demon says, Hey, hey, Jesus, we know Paul.
We know who are you? Right.
So, you know, you have to have a relationship with him. But, but these discoveries confirm what the Bible tells us. The Bible is a trustworthy book. Jeremiah, in your book, you mentioned something called the Jesus Father. Fragment.
What is that and why does it matter? The Jesus fragment is the earliest biblical fragment that we have of Matthew's gospel. And it dates at the very latest to the second century, although some scholars have made headlines recently claiming that it could be the middle of the first century. Can you believe that?
So, this could be the earliest New Testament fragment that we have, but what we know for certain is it's the earliest evidence that we have for Matthew's gospel. And it's called the Jesus fragment, Pastor Greg, because it comes right out of Matthew chapter 26. It's three scraps. It's three literal scraps that are written on the front and back, what we call the recto and verso. And Jesus's name appears multiple times in this scene from Matthew chapter 26.
Now, Pastor Greg, you would think that this would be on display in a museum and people would know about it. I was. Finishing up one of my terms in Oxford, and I was just reading. My advisors had encouraged me to get my hands on as many ancient biblical fragments as possible. And I realized that over at Maudlin College, where C.S.
Lewis, the great thinker and the author of the Chronicles of Narnia series, was on faculty, they had in their possession this P64, or as you rightly called it, the Jesus fragment. And so I sent an email, or probably from my BlackBerry at the time, this was many years ago, to the librarian of the old library of Maudlin College. And I said, Can I come see the fragment? And she said, Sure. And so I walked in, the Porter's Lodge, and they guided me to the old library.
This is Oxford, right off of High Street and Maudlin College. And a very nice woman appears. And she has the equivalent of what almost looks like a Nike shoebox in her hands. And she opens up this box and inside the box is this Acrylic-looking case in these three little scraps of what we now know is, in fact, the earliest witness that we have of Matthew's gospel, the Jesus fragment. And I held it in my hand.
It's 2,000 years old. And it made me appreciate at new levels the richness of the Word of God, the reliability of the scriptures, the fact that heaven and earth will pass away, but the word of our God stands forever. And I thought, first off, I'm amazed that it's not on display somewhere. They actually had a log, I was the first one who had seen the fragment in the year. Isn't that interesting?
And so, again, my job is to guide Christians by the hand because Matthew 22, 37 says the great commandment is to love God with our heart, soul, and mind. And God does want us to love him with all of our heart, with all of our soul, and yes, with our thinking, with our mind. And so, how this brings us face to face with Jesus, the Jesus fragment, is it shows us that these sources that we have for the historical Jesus have stood the test of time. Emperors have tried to banish and burn Bibles. It's amazing that we have any records at all from Christianity, given all the persecution that our faith endured.
And yet, we are blessed with over 5,000 New Testament biblical manuscripts that give evidence to the truth claims of Christianity and show that our scriptures are reliable sources. Wow. That sounds like a scene from a movie. The whole thing you described going in there, where it was, how it was preserved and effectively a shoebox. Is that where it is still?
It's still there. I mean, if you got on a plane and went to London and drove 53 miles to Oxford, you could email the librarian and go see it. But it's not a private section. I would love to see that. I took Jack Graham to see it, and it was very inspiring for him.
He held it in his hand. We did the whole thing. I think what you're going to love about this book is it's very accessible, it's very understandable. He's not, Jeremiah Johnston, who wrote this book, who I'm talking with right now, is not trying to impress anyone. He's not trying to write over your head.
He's trying to take this very important information and give it to you in an understandable way.
So, A, it can help you, and B, it can be a tool for you to help others. Every shred of evidence in my book, The Jesus Discoveries. Is evidence for your future physical bodily resurrection. It's evidence that what we believe is actually based in reality. And so there's an immediate payoff in your own life.
This is going to encourage your own faith. It's going to allow you not only to be more confident, but also more comfortable in your faith because truth makes us comfortable. I love that. When I'm in a faith discussion now, I'm very relaxed because I know the truth. No one's going to say something I haven't heard of before.
And so I'm able to really listen to a friend and I don't get all uptight. You know, the most comforting thing you can do now is listen to someone because you're rock solid in your faith. And that's, I think, the value that this book brings to so many of our lives because I have benefited from people like Pastor Greg my whole life. I grew up listening to this radio broadcast for many, many years. I never thought someday I'd ever have an opportunity to meet Pastor Greg, let alone preach for him, let alone be on this international radio program.
And yet I was there driving in my car, working, probably taking something to a mailbox. Who knows? I had all kinds of unique jobs, but I would listen to Pastor Greg on the Bot Radio Network. I was benefited by his preaching and teaching. And I want this book to do the same for a new generation.
Well, we're thankful for you, Jeremiah. We're thankful for the Bot Radio Network, too. And we're excited about this new book that you've written called The Jesus Discoveries. and it's going to help you grow in your faith. And we'll send you a copy for your gift of any size, whatever you send, we'll put it to good use to keep this ministry going forward to impact people like young Jeremiah when he was out there delivering meal or whatever it was you were doing, and other people as well.
And people that don't know the Lord, you know, one of the things we do on our broadcast, and you're probably aware of this, is we often throw the net, we like to say. And by that, I mean we give people an opportunity to come to Christ because we have found that upwards of 25 to 30 percent of listeners to Christian radio are not believers. These are people that are literally waiting for someone to tell them how they can become Christians. And so that's why we're very intentional about saying, Would you like to accept Christ? If so, why don't you pray this prayer with us right now?
And then we send them a new believer's Bible. I just received a letter not long ago from a guy who was deep into meth. In fact, he said he didn't think he was going to live much longer. He heard me on the radio. He prayed that sinner's prayer, as we call it, and asked Christ to come into his life.
And he said he was instantly healed and he never looked back again. His life was transformed. That's just one person impacted by what we do here on the radio.
So that's why we encourage you to be generous in your support because we offer you these super cool, legitimate resources. To help you, but also it's a way for us to say, why don't you support us financially so we can continue to reach more people like that guy who was a methadic with the gospel, who maybe would never darken the doorway of a church but happened to hear us flipping the dial probably.
So, whatever you can send will be put to good use, and we'll send you in return the Jesus Discoveries by Dr. Jeremiah Johnston. Yeah.
