Have the Jews Been Replaced as God's Chosen People? (Joel Rosenberg Interview)

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Okay, well, Joel Rosenberg, thank you for doing my podcast with you. Absolutely, Greg. Great to be with you. You know, we always go straight to the big topics of what's going on in the world, but why don't we just start? By talking about your childhood a little bit.

Like, who were, were you like a. Smart little kid. You seem to me like you'd sit in the front of the class. You'd always have the answers. Was that you?

No, that was not you. Because I was in the back of the room creating chaos. Checking spinballs at the back of my head. And mocking people, maybe like you, I don't know. But were you that kid?

No, I was not that kid. I was a little, maybe a little, doing a little bit better than average, but I was not, you know, the salutatorian, the valedictorian. That was not me. Look, I'm one of the few Jews that was born and raised in America, Greg, that did not get the financial gene.

Okay, I'm not your stockbroker. I'm not your CPA, I'm not your accountant. But I didn't get the medical gene. I'm not your doctor, I'm not your chiropractor. I'm not, you know, I don't own a movie company.

I didn't get any of the good Jewish jobs, and I'm still a little bitter. But no, I wasn't created your own. I was a creative kid. I was a bit of a class clown, but I, you know, I was interested. Are you into sports?

Yeah, baseball and wrestling. Played a season of football, but I was too little. Do you want to arm wrestle right now? Arm wrestling wasn't one of them, but I would only ask. We'll go after that.

Well, I would only ask if I was sure I could win.

Okay. Yeah, so and I'm not certain it would win, so I'm not gonna do it. I am wrestled Mill Gibson once. We were doing an interview at Angel Stadium.

Okay. And I just had this crazy idea: shit, I'm Russ Lam. I think he would have won. I just stopped really quickly.

So, you were into sports? Yeah, I was. And I liked making people laugh. I was blessed. Yes, you were very witty, Joel.

Well, I try to keep up with you. I try to keep you on your toes as best I can.

Well, I like the way that you weave your humor because you deal with some very weighty, heavy subjects. And I think when you can bring humor in and have little moments of lightness, it actually helps the listener, the viewer to, you know. Take in all that information. Yeah, a spoonful of sugar makes the medicine. I've heard that somewhere.

Exactly. When I was growing up, I really did want to write for Saturday Night Live. I wanted to write for Johnny Carson. I didn't want to do stand-up, but that was an aspiration. And I realized.

The Lord didn't think that was a good idea. I wasn't good enough for that. But I do think having a sense of humor and it's, I think, part of a gift of encouragement when it's used in the Spirit. And I think the Lord has used that in a mix of Bible teaching and Bible prophecy, especially. You're right.

Some of these things are very heavy and. And they're also odd. Since most pastors don't, I'm not a pastor, but most pastors don't teach Bible prophecy, so when you're speaking about it, Um You have to acknowledge, at least internally, that people aren't entirely sure that they want to go where you're taking them. Let me just interrupt you for a moment. I want to hear more about your childhood.

You said a lot of pastors don't teach on Bible prophecy. That is really true.

Now, 30 years ago, even 50 years ago, when the Jesus movement was happening, It was common to hear messages about the return of Christ and specifically about the rapture. Of course, the top-selling book of the 70s was the late great planet Earth. Then there was the amazing success of the left behind books. But nowadays, it seems like it's rare to hear a sermon about the end times from the pulpit. Why do you think that is?

Well, I think that even though 27% of the Bible is prophecy, you know, the reason, why don't people teach it? I don't think, I think a lot of pastors don't understand it. They haven't studied it. A lot of Bible colleges and seminaries aren't teaching it. Maybe there's a class, but out of four years of Bible college or seminary, that's not that much.

Is complicated. It takes extra time to prepare for it. And if you don't have a context for it, that's a problem.

Some people just don't believe it. They think it's all metaphor and allegory. But even non-believers today, I think more than ever, are saying, wait a second. World War III? Haven't I heard this somewhere before?

Haven't I heard Christians talk about this? They hear words like Armageddon thrown about in mainstream discourse. And it seems to me that. By the president of the United States on World War III, and Biden spoke of Armageddon for the first time. He did.

He used the actual word Armageddon.

Well, you know, it's weird because. There's actually a blessing attached to specifically the study of Revelation. Blessed are they that read here and keep the words of this book. The word blessing promises God is going to bless you as you do it. And I think what is true specifically of Revelation is true principally of the study of all.

Prophecy. He gave us these things. It seems to me God's desire is not to conceal, but to reveal. Because revelation means the unveiling.

So, why should we not understand these things? What would you say to maybe somebody who's a pastor out there who is afraid to attack this topic? Like, is there maybe a go-to book? Like, start with this book, apart from the Bible, of course. Like, start with this book.

It's a really good primer on teaching end times events. Maybe it's something you've written or something you're aware of. Sure. But I want to first say that I think a lot of pastors, if they maybe they haven't studied it, maybe they don't understand it, maybe they don't believe it. But there's the other part, which is they don't want to look like a lunatic.

Yeah. This is a big problem because a lot of people who do teach prophecy or are passionate about it. They seem like they're from Roswell, New Mexico. They seem like they built their website at Area 51. You know, it's red flames and everything is in capital letters and 97 exclamation points.

And people are like, or their date setting and they're like 88, you know, you mentioned the other, and I have a box actually of books like this, 88 Reasons Why Jesus Coming in 88. I have the sequel, which was the 89 Reasons Why He's Actually Coming in 89. Both sold millions. Yeah, incredible. I had a book called 1995, I think it was, or 94, maybe it was 95, I think.

You know, a 500-page book about why it's going to come on the, Jesus is coming on this exact time.

So all of that helps discredit. The whole concept of prophecy. And so. I think a lot of pastors are like, I don't want to go there.

So, where would I start? There's a great book called The End by a wonderful. Exactly. He's a Dallas Theological Seminary professor or associate professor. Mark's a friend of mine.

And I know that book, and he's a really good source to go to. I agree with you. He is. And I think that he's solid, he's calm, he drinks decaf, I think. I mean, he's not like, oh, you know, which is, again, that feeling of you deal with people who are interested in prophecy, and some of them, they just don't seem balanced.

It's because they're not.

So that is a real, I would say it's... layman accessible, this book, The End, but it's written by a true scholar, and he's a pastor.

So he's also thinking, how do I take the academic and actually teach it and make it accessible for other pastors?

Well, isn't that the goal of all preaching? To take those things that are maybe hard to understand and make them understandable? It is, absolutely. But I would, you referenced Late Great Planet Earth. That sold more than 10 million copies.

Yeah. There was something very positive about it because it helped people connect what was happening in the world at that time, early 70s, with what a lot of prophecy says.

However, it did overreach. And so, while many people came to faith in Christ because of that book, thinking, wow, the Bible is real, it's relevant. It's telling me what's happening right now, I ought to follow Jesus. On the other hand, there were people who struggled with their faith. I don't know.

I've never personally met someone who lost their faith because of it. But he extrapolated into some things that. Seemed obvious to him, it just turned out to be wrong.

So over time, it had two effects to draw people to the Bible and to prophecy and to the Lord. But for others, like, no, that's. He's wrong, therefore, I'm not listening to any of it. Yeah, I know. And that's a risk.

Yeah. I don't think there's anything wrong with. Like I told you recently, I tried to teach Bible prophecy in a way that. 10 years from now, if someone listens to this message, I won't be embarrassed by it.

So I think we can offer our ideas and our interpretations and our theories. Like we might say, well, okay, from my understanding of scripture, and we would both agree with this, we believe that Magog is Russia.

Okay. But, you know, that is not an essential doctrine of the Christian faith, but it is an interpretation based on... many sources, many things that can support it. But it's okay to say, now I think this, now it may be different, but here's what we do know. A large force from the north of Israel will attack her.

And this will be a sign of the end time.

So we can say that with certainty, but give ourselves a little wiggle room and maybe something will happen geopolitically or around the world that will change a little. And we have seen some surprising things happen in even recent days. I remember years ago, you know, the Bible talks about the 10 nations united under Antichrist. Many thought that was what was called the common market. But now we see it a little bit differently.

So that's okay. Give yourselves some room to interpret. But then we want to stand strong on the essentials, which are Christ is coming back. He did tell us to watch. He did tell us to be ready.

Let's not miss the point. Yeah. And that's why we teach what the Bible actually says. Yes. Then we interpret it.

A In light of scripture, then we can say, my sense of it is that it could mean this. But as long as we have to be clear that this part is our sense, but let's make sure people actually understand prophecy. That's another piece is.

Some people who get a little too hopped up on prophecy, they're trying to persuade you. And I find that teaching prophecy is not the same as the gospel. The gospel, I implore you to listen and to make a decision. Today is the day of salvation, right? This is right in your wheelhouse.

With prophecy, I don't try to persuade people. I feel like Just teach it what it says. Um And teach how to understand it, interpret it in light of other scripture, that is critical. Then I can add: well, this is where we're trending geopolitically.

So, therefore, it could mean this, it could mean that. I would watch for this. But as long as that part, my own personal interpretation, not a biblical understanding of other kinds of things, context of the scripture. As long as that's clear, That's so less important. And yet, I think for some prophecy teachers, they get an inflated sense of self that they're somehow supposed to understand exactly what it means.

Even the people who wrote the prophecies in the scriptures did not understand exactly what they were saying or when it was going to happen. The scriptures tell us this, right? And the New Testament tells us that Old Testament prophets longed to understand and to see the days that they were writing about, but they didn't fully understand it.

So, this is just a level of humility and caution that will help. The seeds of the scriptures that we teach, the prophecies, be planted. In As healthy an environment as possible. And then, if anything that we have said. helps great i remember um Tim LaHaye, Dr.

Tim LaHaye was one of the great Bible prophecy experts of the 20th century, right? It was his idea to create the Left Behind novel series, sold 65 million copies. Wow. And by the way, I would distinguish even like Great Planet Earth. You were in an environment, Greg, as you came to faith, and you were in an environment where people were teaching prophecy.

But the Roman Catholic Church doesn't teach it. Much of the Reformed theological movement doesn't teach it. Teach most of it. And so it's a pretty relatively narrow in the grand scheme of all of two and a half billion Christians of pastors that are teaching it.

So you happen to be swimming in an environment where it was very much alive and it very much helped your faith. But all that to say, I remember getting to know Dr. Tim LaHaye. My wife was working for. His wife, and yeah, Beverly.

And so my wife was running their annual. uh Christian women's conventions. I concern women for America.

So we would move in like for a week before this convention. As Lynn had to do all this work, and I just got to hang out in the hotel. And Tim LaHaye, he didn't have anything to do either. He was just there to support his wife.

So we got to hang out. That's the first person I ever knew that taught about prophecy. And it happened to be one of the world's arguably the world's expert.

Now he was trying to explain to me, not persuade me, but explain to me, this is 1992. I got those few years. He was trying to explain to me Gog and Magog. He was trying to say that Russia Will become the major threat to Israel. We'll form an alliance with Iran and other countries, and I come against Israel in the last days.

He gave me a copy of a paperback book that he'd written years before. And I'm thinking to myself, I mean, I don't say it. But inside I'm feeling a little snarky.

Well, you're the big expert on Bible prophecy, but Have you read the newspaper, Tim? You know, Dr. Lay is what I call him, but. You know, the Soviet Union is falling apart, a million Jews are coming out. You're trying to tell me that Russia and Iran are going to form some alliance and be a hostile actor towards Israel.

Have you any idea what's happening in the real world? Yeah, but he wasn't, yes, he did understand the real world, but he didn't try to persuade me, he just taught me. And he gave me a book.

Well, 10 years later, I'm working for Natan Sharansky, who had just finished being the deputy prime minister of Israel. And he's telling me a story. We're on a flight from Washington to New York City, and he's telling me a story just as I'm working for him as a media advisor. He says, Yeah, a couple years ago, Joel. And by the way, just for your audience that may not know, I'm Natan Sharansky was born and raised in the Soviet Union, Jewish, a real hero of human rights for Jews and for others.

But was put in The Gulag, the prisons of the KGB for nine years for being a Jewish. A human rights activist.

So he gets released eventually, he becomes the deputy prime minister of Israel, and now I'm sitting with him. Amazing. My family escaped out of Russia.

So I I considered him a great hero as do as do most Jews.

So he's telling me, yeah, a couple years ago, Joel, I won't do his accent. Prime Minister Netanyahu sent me to Moscow. He says, Natan, I want you to go to Moscow. And Sharansky was like, I don't want to go to Moscow, did Moscow, don't want to go back. He goes, no, no, no, you're the right guy.

I want you to go meet with this guy named Vladimir Putin. Wow. Sharansky's like, what? Yeah, yeah, he's the new head of the KGB. They call it the FSB.

I want you to go talk to them and give them this file and show them that we know. That The Russians are selling nuclear technology to Iran. I'm fearful. This was 2000, the summer of 2000.

So this is about eight years after getting to know Tim LaHaye. And so I'm listening to a man who Was sent by the Prime Minister of Israel to the to Vladimir Putin. Who is just becoming the president of Russia, but in the story, he's only the head of the new KGB. And Transky is explaining to me how Netanyahu is worried that the Russian-Iranian alliance is emerging and is going to become one of the most dangerous threats to Israel. And I don't say it to Sharansky because it's not my place, but I'm thinking.

This is what Tim LaHaye was talking about.

So, as soon as I finish that assignment, I go home and I'm like, honey, where's that book? She's like, I think you put it in the garage. And I'm like, you know, and I finally find this old out-of-print book by Tim LaHaye, and I read it and I'm like, All right. He was on to something because he was just studying the scriptures. He wasn't.

He wasn't dating what he was telling me by the current moment. He's just saying, This is going to happen at some point. Wow. And that began to teach me several things. One, he was right about more than I realized.

Yeah. I was a. Young whippersnapper, and I thought I knew stuff, and I didn't. But more importantly, just teach it. Yeah.

Drop it as a seed. It may be in snarky, cynical soil. But God can bring it to life in the future. And that's an important principle on Bible prophecy. It's not the same as the gospel.

And we just have to Be committed to teaching it without trying to necessarily persuade people on the prophecy. Let's go back to what. Dr. Lehan was writing about and what Turned out to be true in real time. This alliance with Russia and Iran was it 1935.

Persia changed our name to Iran, right?

Okay, so Persia is one of the allies that marches with Makog.

So, if Makog is Russia, and we believe it is, This is a, the Bible is prophesying an alliance that did not happen until how many years later? It basically starts in the early 1990s, right about the time that Tim LaHea is, Dr. LaHea, is telling me this. Why?

Well, because what happened is when the Soviet Union imploded. And it ended, and it was just now Russia. It wasn't the Soviet Union anymore, the Soviet Empire. and the million Jews left. In the years that followed, The Russian leadership thought, we've got a problem.

We have weapons, but we have no money. Right? We're a bankrupted country. But we have all these weapons from the Cold War. Iran.

Iran's leadership thought, hmm, we have a problem. We've just fought an eight-year war with Iraq. We have money, oil money, but we don't have any weapons.

So they thought, Who's got weapons and needs money? The Russians. This was a match made in HAL. The two sides saw that they needed each other, and the Russians were like, sure, buy our weapons, that'd be fantastic. And this began around 1994, 95.

But when Vladimir Putin takes over in 2000, he accelerates the relationship with Iran. At this moment, I start thinking. I'm almost trembling with the feeling of Things are getting set into motion that I learned about eight. nine years ago, I didn't believe. And now, and this gets me into the idea of I should write about this.

And so after I helped Benjamin Netanyahu, Go Nowhere. I was a junior advisor on his comeback campaign in the fall of 2000. He didn't come back for nine more years. This was part of my failed political consulting life.

Now he's the longest serving prime minister, I believe, in the history of Israel. Exactly. And I played absolutely no role. I was no help at all. And bless his heart.

So, anyway, that's where I began to think about writing a series of novels because what I liked about the Tim Lehay model was. Study the prophecies. And there's a wide range of ways to teach. Yes. Novels give you a way to say, this is not exactly the way it's going to be, but what if?

It gets you thinking with a different part of your brain. Novels fire up your imagination and get you to think emotionally and gay, think, wow. Wow, what if? And you just start chewing on it. differently than if you read an editorial in the newspaper or even a non-fiction book.

Book on prophecy.

So, and you're gonna reach a much wider audience. We've sold 5 million copies of these books. And again, it's not 65 million copies that they sold, but we're in a season where there is much less interest in prophecy than there was in the 80s and 90s, 70s, 80s, and 90s, but it's still important. And so interest or not, I just feel like this is part of what I'm supposed to be doing. And whether it's podcasting, whether it's preaching and teaching, or whether it's television on TBN or novels, I'm looking for every possible way to engage people that might Be very skeptical.

Well, it's interesting to think about world leaders because you've met a lot of influential people. You mentioned Netanyahu, who, of course, you've become friends with former CIA director Mike Pompeo, Vice President Pence, many others. And it's interesting to think about a person in a position of authority believing these things. You know, I met Marco Rubio 10 years ago. I was speaking at a couples conference in Hawaii, and someone said, Marco Rubio is here and would like to meet you.

And I said, The Marco Rubio senator, Marco Rubio. Yeah, so we met him and his wife, Jeanette, beautiful couple, love the Lord, loved the Bible. And Marco had a particular interest in the end times. And so I had written a commentary on Revelation. And so he gathered a bunch of his buddies who like to study the Bible.

And I'm going through Revelation and end times events with them. And then, now, look, Marco is the Secretary of State. Oh, it's amazing. You know, so that's an incredible thing. And let me just add just a small piece in there, and then you continue with your thought, which is he became interested in my novels.

And when he was running for president, I didn't know that. The Associated Press actually snapped a picture of him getting on a plane. He had a stack of books he just bought, and one of them was a book called The 12th Imam. Oh, wow. That was a political thriller about Iranian eschatology that they think some savior is coming.

And anyway, he and I end up, because of that, I reached out to him and we ended up meeting several times, becoming friends. And a friend. I mean, I don't want to overstate it, but we got to know each other and had similar conversations as well as what is the future of America. You're right, though. But when you meet people earlier in their careers and you have no idea, but if God opens those doors and you build a relationship and you can be somewhat helpful, you hope, on spiritual things, on biblical issues.

That's how I met Pence and Mike and Karen was, they were readers of the novels. He wasn't the vice president yet. He never even imagined it. Mike Pompeo was a member of the House of Representatives, but he wasn't the CIA director. He wasn't the Secretary of State.

So. Yeah, God sometimes opens crazy. You know, coming back to Netanyahu, I've heard him give speeches where he alludes to Ezekiel 37 and the return of the Jews to their homeland.

So it seemed to me, listening to this, that he believed this was a prophecy that has been fulfilled. Modern Israel is a fulfillment of that prophecy of the Jews returning to their land and a sign of the last days. But does he believe the rest of what Ezekiel says? You wonder, does Netanyahu look at Magog and think, hmm, could this be Russia? You know, that's bad accent or imitation of Netanyahu.

You could probably do Netanyahu. No, I can't. He doesn't have a, I don't know anyone who does a good impression of him. No, he, well, he has great command of the English language because he went to school here in the United States. He did.

But I wonder: have you ever had a discussion with him about that or heard him talk about prophecy and the future of Israel? No, we've only spoken about what he's also spoken about publicly, which is his. His belief that Ezekiel 37, the valley of the dry bones, is what happened. He actually spoke at Auschwitz on one of the, I think, the 60th or 65th anniversary of Auschwitz, in which he said there. This was the valley of dry bones, I'm paraphrasing.

And out of this, when we thought we were dead and buried as a people. Out of this, the state of Israel was reborn. Um I I haven't actually ever talked to him about Uh Ezekiel 38, 39. Sharansky has read several of my books, including a novel called The Ezekiel Option. And I told him this came out, you know, I'm not saying he believes it.

I'm just saying I told him that when I gave it to him, this came out of our conversation. I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but. There are prophecies that say Russia and Iran is going to form this alliance, and you gave me the idea in part.

So, again, I think we just keep. Teaching To those who have ears to hear. That's it. And even if they don't have ears to hear, you still share it when you can. I think.

I think God put me in Washington, D.C. for 20 years. 24 years before going to Israel, and not in the Bible Belt. I was learning to. Studied prophecy and explained prophecy, and starting to teach prophecy and write about prophecy in Washington, D.C., the most cynical city.

in America. Yeah. Right. And so you cannot assume something that if you're a Preacher and East Texas. You know, they're all going to get what you're saying because we've been teaching it since you were four years old.

Texas accent.

Well, you're tired. You know, not that good. You know, but if you go to like Tyler, Texas, you can't say Tyler. I've been there, I've taught a lot of times. He was like, it's Tyler, Texas, Joel.

People, I was just an Amarilla. Yeah. It's not Amarillo, it's Amarilla. Amarillo. And they gave me boots.

I think they're snake skin boots. I had never worn a boot. I'd like to see you wearing cowboy boots. You should. They gave me a beautiful pair and to a Yankee for crying out loud.

So I thought, wow, God bless you. But the point is. When you speak, speak in an environment where everybody believes you, you talk different. Um And when you live and you're trying to explain prophecy in the most cynical, hostile city, toxic city in America, you have to think differently and you have to explain differently. And I would explain, just again, in political context, when you hear Ted Cruz talk about politics, who's a Texan and comes from a very red state, he talks differently than Marco Rubio, who comes from Florida, which was for a long time a purple state.

It's the same. Philosophy, but it's a different tone. You're trying to appeal to people differently. Cruz is speaking to people who believe him. Yes.

Marco is talking to some people who believe him, but a lot of people who don't or aren't sure. And I think God took me Down the prophecy screw, as it were. In a place where I had to learn how to talk to people who were like, You have freaking got it, you're kidding me. There's no way, that's great, and I think the Lord has created a different. A different tone in the way I talk about it.

And also, humor became a big part of it because. If you take yourself a little too seriously, people are going to think you're a well, we do our crusades. You know, I've done crusades all around the United States, and my favorite places are the more secular spots. We had a tremendous crusade in New York City at Madison Square Garden. We had a really great one in Seattle, where I've heard there are more dogs than Christians.

And so, but I remember the percentage-more coffee companies than Christians. More lots of coffee. But the percentage of response was way higher in Seattle than it was when I did a harvest crusade in Georgia or in some of the southern states. I love those people. But, you know, there can be a jadedness where they, oh, I've heard this from my childhood, but when you're talking to a completely secular person, and you know, I wasn't raised in the church, and so I think that helps you.

Yeah, when God created a testimony that you, this wasn't all embedded in this is the way it's said, this is the way it's done. No, you. That was quite a road, and you had a hard life. And when you came to it, you're like, okay, how do I appeal to people like me? That's right, exactly.

I grew up in the Northeast, as I said, the New York, New Jersey thing. No, you're not getting any cultural points for being a follower of Jesus. In Texas, you would. In Georgia, you would. In Mississippi, you would.

But you do not get any, there's no benefit to your life, your business, your personality or your social identity in the community by being a devout follower of Jesus. Just the opposite.

So you have to learn how to operate in a place where everybody either hates you or at least is skeptical of you. Yeah. You know, I remember hearing, I met Netanyahu in Israel. It's funny because I was with a bunch of pastors and the guy who invited me said, I want you to ask a question of the prime minister.

Well, I was very excited and I was very nervous. And so. Why were you nervous? Because he's the prime minister of Israel. You're an ambassador of Jesus.

I know, but I was nervous.

Okay. Can I say?

So I had. That's a rare thing. I don't know if I've heard of it. I think I'd been teaching through Esther, and so I had this kind of. Of Esther thought in my mind, like, you know, who knows that God has not put you there for such a time as this?

And then I combined, no, and then the guy who asked me to ask the question gave me a question.

So I combined our two questions and I asked him, And he looked at me and said, I don't understand what you're asking me. And everyone started laughing. And so I was humiliated in front of the prime minister. But I had a point about that. Oh, yeah, I heard him say in that meeting that the greatest friend of Israel is the evangelical Christian.

And I think it's so important because I'm not Jewish, I'm a Gentile. And when I did my 23 in Mia test, I was hoping. Is there some Jewish blood in me somewhere? And I found out I'm hopelessly Gentile. I am like, I am white trash.

I'm just.

Well, no, I'm Scottish and Irish. But I was taught, and Chuck Smith was my pastor. And Chuck Smith loved the Jewish people. Chuck Smith loved Israel. He took us to Israel.

And a whole generation of young preachers picked that up from him. And now these are our convictions that we've adopted for ourselves. You know, I think it's so important for us to build bridges to the Jewish community. You know, after October 7th, I was asked to speak at the Museum of Tolerance in Los Angeles to an exclusively Jewish audience. And I was honored and a little intimidated.

I was like, what do I say?

So I wrote a little talk and I just said to these people, you know, what a tragedy it was, how sorry we were. But here's what amazed me. The rabbi who introduced me said to this group. Gathered. He said, this man, referring to me, has done more for our people in Israel than most of you here.

And I was kind of shocked that he said that because I didn't know that he knew much about me or what I've done or said. But what we did was we just told the folks there that we love them. But I thought, I'm not going to hide my testimony. And I said, you know, my love for the Jewish people came after I came into a relationship with Jesus Christ. I was a confused kid going the wrong way in life.

I heard about Jesus. I began to read the Bible, learn your history. That's where my love came for you and for the book that came through you, etc. And after I was done speaking, a number of them said, why don't you come on our team?

So I saw that as a compliment. But I thought it was really important for us to go and in a tangible way say we care about you. One thing our church has done is we just purchased a bulletproof ambulance for Israel. We did this with Samaritans for. That's giving quite a few of them at the request of Israel.

And we're giving this ambulance to them in the name of Jesus Christ. You know, this is from your Christian friends in America at Harvest. But I see that there's something called replacement theology that has gained some prominence in the church where this is not what is being taught. We're told that Israel is not in the land as a fulfillment of Bible prophecy. And there is no emphasis on the importance of us building bridges to the Jewish people, loving them, reaching them with the gospel themes that you talk about often.

Maybe just explain replacement theology and why Christians should love Jewish people. Sure. Let's start with um How much time did you say you had? Because that's quite a question. All right, here's the short version.

Then you can pull on the threads if you'd like. Let's start with. replacement theology. pastors, theologians, others who believe that that The church Has replaced Israel in God's plan and purpose for the world. That's not true.

But there's a dual track. Of course, the church is the central thing that God is doing in this world since the messianic age began, not the millennial kingdom, but the messianic age when Jesus came, died, rose again. Of course, the church is what he's building in this world. But. There are prophecies that go back to the book of Genesis, the first book of the Bible that says God is raising up the nation of Israel.

And the Christians are told by Paul in one of the letters to Corinthians: look to Israel, learn from Israel, both the good and the bad, and the mistakes we've made. But God is raising up Israel in these last days, as the prophet said he would.

So there's really two, God has two things going on simultaneously.

Now, the reason. People who are Replacement theologians who believe that God is done with Israel, He's done with the Jewish people. He's only focused on the church. The reason they say that is because, well, you Jews, Jesus was Jewish. Sure, he came to Israel, but you rejected him.

Therefore, he's rejecting you.

Well, on a simple basis, if a person doesn't think it through, they would say, oh, well, I guess that would make sense. If the Jewish people reject their Messiah, he's going to reject them. Didn't he punish them? Yes, he did. Didn't he kick us all out of the land?

Yes, he did. Didn't he destroy our temple?

Well, through the Romans, as Jesus said, would happen. But that's not the same as rejecting the Jewish people forever. The reason we know that God didn't reject the Jewish people forever is because the Apostle Paul existed. Paul came to faith. He was Saul.

Then he comes to faith in Jesus after the death of Jesus, after Jews hand Jesus over to the Romans, after the Romans crucified Jesus, but also after Jesus is resurrected. If God rejected the Jews forever, At the crucifixion. Because the Jews had rejected the Messiah and turned them over to Rome to crucify him. then no Jewish person would have ever gotten saved. From that point forward, because God would be done with us.

But that is entirely not true, starting with the apostle, not starting with the apostle Paul, the disciples. All the disciples were. Jewish, and all of them Believed he was a Messiah, but they didn't believe he was God until the resurrection. And in John 20, we see when they actually become full born-again believers because the Holy Spirit, Jesus breathes the Holy Spirit into them. They're following him, but they don't fully get it.

They think he's a political messiah, not. God himself until the resurrection.

So, first of all, how did those guys get saved? But you say, well, well, that's different.

Well, Saul was a persecutor of the church. He was a Jewish leader at the highest levels. Yes. He gets saved, and then most of us either got saved or grew in our faith because of him. And then a million Jews today.

Believe in Jesus.

So, what we're seeing is that God has not done with us spiritually, but the rebirth of Israel in 1948 is. Evidence that the prophecies of Ezekiel 36, of Ezekiel 37, of Isaiah, of Jeremiah, of Daniel, all of these are coming to pass in our lifetime.

So, I would say I'm somewhat sympathetic to Christians from 70 AD to. The early 1900s, the mid-1900s, who, like, I don't really know if those prophecies about the rebirth of Israel and all Israel getting saved. That seems so unlikely that that must be a metaphor, it must be an analogy, it can't really be literally. True, because I get it. A thousand years ago, they didn't see any evidence of this.

500 years ago, they didn't see any evidence of this. But it's really hard in the last hundred years when you've got a million Jews coming to faith. That's just the last 50 years. And then the literal state of Israel being reborn, replacement theology has been disproven 100%.

Now, there's another piece here, which is people who are what I would say are soft replacement. They don't mean God hates the Jews, they don't mean that. God is done with the Jews spiritually or even in terms of national Israel. But they'll tell me. But current Israel has nothing to do with Bible prophecy.

It's not part of the prophetic reveal. One of the people that I've had this conversation with is a person who I greatly admire, and this is John Piper.

Now, John Piper. He believes in Jewish evangelism. He believes in the national rebirth of Israel at some point. But I had a dinner with him a few years ago and his wife and some of his senior colleagues at the Bible College and Seminary that he runs in Minnesota. And uh I said, so John, if I understand you correctly, you love the Jews, you stand with the Jews.

You believe in Jewish evangelism and you believe in the future of national Israel, that Israel will be prophetically reborn. But if I understand correctly from reading all your stuff, You don't believe that current Israel has anything to do with Bible prophecy. He said, that's correct. Wow. He said so You're the ultimate sovereignty guy.

That's a big, passionate. point that you make. God is sovereign. I agree with you. But you think that for nineteen hundred plus years Israel, the Jews were out of the land, and then we just sort of got back after almost 2,000 years without God's sovereignty.

He said, No, no, no, no. On the heels of the Holocaust.

Well, right, right. I mean, we were almost dead and buried. He says, no, no, no, of course that was God's sovereign act. I said, okay, so it's a sovereign act, but it's not connected to Bible prophecy that said we would come back, that said we rebuild the country.

Well, I just think there's not any proof of that. And I said, but why do you? And he said, I'll tell you very clearly and simply why. The Mosaic law, the law of Moses says: if the Jewish people chronically reject and resist God and his word, he's going to kick us out of the land, or kick you out of the land, he said. But if they repent, if you repent as a nation, he'll bring you back.

So the nation of Israel is not yet repentant. And therefore, it cannot be anything connected to prophecy. I said, ah, that's a great point, John. You're absolutely right, that is what the law of Moses says. He said, Well, there you go.

I said, Okay, okay, not there. I go. What's the purpose of the law? The purpose of the law is to prove to us we can't do it. That's right.

So under the law of Moses, we are guilty as Jews. We should not, we don't have a right to go back to Israel. But we're back in Israel. Why are we back in Israel if we don't have a right to go there? And we weren't there for more than 1,900 years.

I said, The reason is because of the prophets. God said to the prophets, Even though you don't have a right to go back, I will bring you back. I will bring you back. I will plant you. I will help you rebuild the ancient ruins.

I will make the desert bloom. I will, I will, I will. That's God sovereignly saying, even though you don't have the right to do it, even though you won't be repentant, I have a plan for you and I will do it. And then you will know. This is the language always of Ezekiel, especially.

I will do this, and then you will know that I am the Lord. I said, Now, look what's happened. Jews are coming to faith after the rebirth of modern standards. You've said this before, but how many Jews. Believe in Jesus.

I mean, I know you can't pinpoint it to an exact number, but I know there's been a dramatic increase of those that were maybe 40 years ago.

So I was born in 67.

So that's almost 58 years ago. And at that point, the best Jewish missiologist would say is there were maybe 2,000 Jewish people on planet Earth who believed that Jesus is the Messiah, that he is God in 1967. Today, based on research we've done with the Southern Baptist Research Arm, our ministry, the Joshua Fund and others, helped fund research to say, we just want to know. Just in America alone, How many People who are even joking followers of Jesus. Have a Jewish heritage, ethnic heritage.

And it turns out it's 871,000. Wow. So it's almost 900,000. Then you add about 30,000 Jews in Israel who believe in Jesus, and then people in Brazil and Europe and elsewhere.

So we're at about a million.

So we've gone from 2,000. To a million in the last 60 years or so. This is dramatic.

So back to the conversation with John Piper. I said, so, John, now, Ezekiel 37 specifically says, I will bring you back the valley of the dry bones, and then I will pour out my spirit, and then you will know that. I said, now let me give you two examples that show that this has happened in the past. First is the Exodus out of Egypt.

So God brings the Jewish people, the nation of Israel, out of Egypt supernaturally. But how many of them were repentant? Almost none. I mean, Caleb and Joshua, yes, but the entire older generation dies in the wilderness in unrepentant.

So, when does the nation repent? We can see it in the book of Joshua when God supernaturally parts the Not the Red Sea in this case, but in the Jordan River. The nation of Israel goes into the land. And once they're in the land, in sight of Jericho, their main enemy, they suddenly realize We haven't circumcised ourselves. We haven't circumcised our children.

That's the central part of the Moses covenant.

So they circumcise themselves. That's repentance. That's real repentance. It's also crazy to do it when you're in enemy territory, when you're in the sight of your enemy. Why don't you do that on the other side of a big river?

That takes, you know, I said, you can see national appendance. And they are already in the land. But let me give you a better example. When the Babylonian exile, now the Babylonian Jews are now in Persia, but King Cyrus sends them all back with money, with political support, with military help. They come back.

We read it in the book of Ezra and Nehemiah. In Nehemiah, we literally read: the nation is back, the walls are built, and Ezra is reading the word of God, the law, to the people, and the priests are explaining. What the meaning of the word is, and people start to weep. They are repenting. Where are they?

In exile? No, they're back in the land. I said, this is what Ezekiel is speaking of.

So, John, you're right that. We don't have, we as you don't have a right to come back because we're not nationally repentant. But What the prophets tell us is that God will bring us back anyway, and then He will help us understand the grace that He's showing us. as he pours out his spirit. And the rebirth of Israel will be essential.

Component of even Jews who don't yet believe in Jesus, at least believing, oh, there's a God, He has done this for us. That's a long explanation. I appreciate you letting me at least share it. But my point is, we're at a time where we really have to help. There's a lot more pastors and people Who?

Who believe what John believes. Right. Not what you and I believe. Find ways to engage. Even within the Southern Baptist movement, even within the Calvary movement, there are voices that just don't quite get this.

Okay, let's not be mad at them. Let's start explaining. what this is and Those Christians who do love Israel and do stand with Israel, good. But let's not forget that ultimately the way to bless Israel is to make sure every Jew has at least heard the gospel. Because it does Us as a team, no good to have political and moral and financial support from the Christian community if we end up going to hell.

Because nobody taught us. Oh, Jesus, this Jesus that is motivating us to love you. He actually is your Messiah.

Well, like Paul says, you know, I'm not ashamed of the gospel of Christ. It's the power of God unto everyone who believes, to the Jew first, also to the Gentiles. But there are pastors and people and theologians who are ashamed of the gospel when it comes to Jews. They somehow think, I don't want to offend you. They have no problem telling an African or Chinese person or Brazilian.

Jesus is the only way of salvation. But to to a Jew, they're like, really want to go there, sir. But that's because of Christian Jewish history and a lot of mistakes that have been made. One of the things I encourage people to do is go to Israel, see it for yourself, see the land. And one of the places you need to visit is not just the garden tomb, not just Gethsemane, not just the Mount of Olives.

Go to Yad Vishem and understand the history of the Jewish people. You see how anti-Semitism, it's so parallel to today, starting with the caricatures, starting with the effect on the businesses where they would force the Jewish people to wear the little star armband. Then they put them in a ghetto. Then they route them from the ghettos to the concentration camps. And they had no idea what was happening there.

And it was a process that the Nazis engaged in. Yeah, and then the Nazi soldiers in Auschwitz, for example, are murdering Jews six days a week, putting them in ovens. And then they're going to church and singing hymns on Sunday. No Jew could imagine that the New Testament wasn't a handbook. Of anti-Semitism and extermination.

But this is how the devil has worked to keep my people, the Jewish people, from. The greatest Hope that we could ever have, which is our own Messiah. Jesus who is Jewish. Jesus who is Israeli. Let's say you're a non-believing Jew, and let's say I sit down and we're having a cup of coffee.

And I want to reach you with the gospel. I'm a Gentile Christian. But I want to share Jesus with you. Is there something I would do differently with you than I would do with just, well, just say a garden variety non-believer? Is there something specific I should be aware of?

Like with you as a Jewish person, with the history of persecution tragically done in the name of the church. And, you know, we know that was a misrepresentation of the gospel, but we can't argue with history.

So what do I need to know when I'm approaching you with the gospel?

Well, I think there's one question you have to ask first. Do you already have a relationship with me? Are we already friends? Or are you meeting me for the first time? At a certain level, it doesn't matter, but Jews tend to need to know that you love me, that you're standing with me.

That helps a lot because we're very alone in this world right now, especially post-October 7th, and we feel very much endangered. And we also have, we are suspicious of Christians, that they're coming after our souls. They don't really care about us as people, that we're just some sort of project, a target for them. And that's a problem. But the more that Christians are, you know, you.

specifically, but Christians in general are showing the love of Jesus. Then we are much more open to listening to why, why do the people who love Jesus love me?

So let's take that as an example. One thing, but even if you just met somebody and you said, hey, you know, like in your case, it would be like, oh, you're Greg Laurie, you're an evangelist. I don't believe what you believe, but I'm, you know, I'm a little bit curious. Like, why did. I would pull up my phone and I would say, Can I just read you one passage of scripture and just tell me who this is?

Who am I describing? And I would read from Isaiah 53. And I would say, well, who do you think that is? And they will almost always say, well, obviously, that's Jesus, but I don't believe in the New Testament. You're like, well, that's not the New Testament.

Well, obviously it is.

Well, no, this is Isaiah. This is your. Hebrew prophet. No, no. Give me that.

Because it's so obviously Jesus. But most Jews have never heard of Isaiah 53. Yeah, that's a text Philip used to reach the Ethiopian eunuch, right? And the Ethiopian, he was like the treasury secretary, and he was on the road to Gaza, the one positive mention of Gaza in the entire book of the Bible. But that guy is actually reading it himself and he's like I'm not getting this.

But of course, he didn't know the story of Jesus. It was so fresh.

Now, Most Jews have never read the New Testament, but they've never read the Old Testament either. Most Jews. And so, but if you read... Uh you know Isaiah 53 was just all about the torture and isolation and ridicule and death of the Messiah. I can't tell you how many Jews we know who go.

I don't want to, I'm not interested in the New New Testament. I'm not interested in talking about Jesus. You're like, well. Are we talking about Jesus?

Well, obviously. Really? Obviously, because actually. It's not, I mean, it is Jesus, you're right, but this is your prophecies. That is one of the interesting ways just because just getting that Right.

Those are Psalm 22. You could read that as well. They pierced my hands and my feet. Yeah. Where do you think that came from?

Exactly. Well, one of the things I say is: I don't have my phone with me, but right now, but Bible prophecy is like a phone number. And Messianic prophecy in particular.

So, messianic prophecy is guiding us. To eliminate options of who the Messiah could be and guidance to one particular person. And this is similar to a phone. If you pick up your phone, and so I have an American phone which is based in Northern Virginia.

So it starts with 1703.

So if you or your audience start dialing 1703, what are the computers doing?

Well, now they've decided the entire world isn't. Where Joel is, Joel's phone is. The entire United States is not where Joel is. We are now in the state of Virginia. And we're not just in most of Virginia, we're in Northern Virginia.

Just four numbers, and you already have Northern Virginia.

Now every number The computer, what is the computer doing? It's eliminating options. When you get to number 10, well, 11, but you get me.

Now, you won't get me. You'll get my voicemail. But the person's. Could you just give us your actual phone number? No, just the beginning of it, just the 703.

But that's a miracle. In a world of 7.5 billion people, how can you find one person's number? The same thing was true of the prophets, the messianic prophecy.

So let's just take our etchasketch for a second, clean the board. Yes. Let's start with Isaiah 9. I would sit with a Jewish person as I have, and I say, okay, let's look at Isaiah 9. This says, first of all, the people living in great darkness, they're going to see a great light.

Okay, so God is going to appear to them in some way, right? Right. And where's that going to happen? Oh, it's going to happen in the galley.

Okay, interesting.

So now. For unto us a child is born.

Now, this is a very famous, I would say to you, if you're Jewish, I would say this is a very famous messianic prophecy. But it's saying a child is coming.

Now, that means we're not looking for an angel, we're not looking for a ghost, we're not looking for a vision in the sky, we're actually looking for a human being to come.

Now, for unto us a child is born, a son is given.

Okay, now we are, so we're eliminating ghosts, we're eliminating angels, we're eliminating spiritual visions. We're talking about a human being.

Now we're eliminating women as the Messiah.

Now we're down to men.

Okay, well, half the population, fair enough.

Now, let's keep going. His name is going to be... Wonderful counselor, prince of peace, but it's going to be also El Ghibor, mighty God. This child, this human being, is going to be called. Mighty God.

That's weird. It doesn't explain it right then, but we're looking for somebody who... It's gonna be spending time in the galley. Who's a human being, who comes as some dramatic baby being born, but also is going to be called. A lot of people God.

Alright, let's just set that one aside for a second.

Okay. Now, let's go to Micah chapter 5. Micah 5, let's read that. We read that. We say, okay, oh, he's actually going to be born.

He's going to. He's going to serve and minister and live in the galaxy, but he's actually going to be born in a very specific place, Bethlehem. What, Bethlehem, Pennsylvania? You know, there are dozens of Bethlehems in America, hundreds in the world. No, Bethlehem, uh, Ephrata in Judea.

That's a very specific place. And by the way, it's a very little town.

So you'd be little among the thousands of Judah. Yes. So I said, this is David's hometown.

Now, that's a very little place.

So now we know he's going to be born in the specific Bethlehem as a human, as a boy. And he's going to be called God. Let's just set that aside for a second. Let's go to Daniel 9. Daniel 9 says that forgiveness is coming, atonement for our sins is coming, everlasting life is coming.

But it says the anointed one, the messiah, is going to be cut off. Yes. I'm like, what does that mean?

Well, it doesn't exactly say, but it does say this is going to happen before. The temple is destroyed, and Jerusalem is destroyed.

Now, let's just stop there. We haven't done A 10-month study. We haven't done a seminar degree on prophecy. We're just saying, these are our basic facts, these are the numbers we're putting into the phone.

Now he said, Now I'll say to somebody, Let's just take some guesses. What that's saying is If the Messiah from Bethlehem hasn't come Before Jerusalem is destroyed and the temple is destroyed in 70 AD, he's not coming. It has to be before. That's what Daniel, your prophet, that's what he says.

Now let's remember that Israel, you guys gave away Bethlehem. To the Palestinians. There's no Jews being born in Bethlehem anymore.

So if he didn't come. He's not coming.

Now, let's just spitball here. Let's just play an association game. Can you think of anyone that maybe, I don't know, two and a half billion people in the world. Says, hey, he was this guy, this one person was born in Bethlehem. He lived in Galilee.

And people call him God. Just spit it out if you can think of it. Just give me, let's think of it. Let's create a list of options. Oh, no, no.

There's only one option. You don't have to believe it. But this is what the phone numbers lead. The phone numbers are leading you. These just prophecies that we, there are 300 of them, but we're just talking about a few.

Where is that leading you? Just consider for the possibility. Maybe the rabbis are wrong. Maybe Maybe it's Jesus. Let's just consider that for a moment.

And why don't we spend a little time reading about the life of Jesus? That is actually not a terrible way to have a conversation.

So if you have a pre-existing relationship, it's good if they know you love them, you care about them. That's one of the most important things. And that's true of all evangelism, I have to say, in general. People don't care how much you know unless they know how much you care, you know.

So that's very important. But especially with a Jewish friend, you know, to let them know we care about you, we care about your people, your plight, what you're going through, and then showing them through Old Testament scriptures. Every verse you've quoted is an Old Testament scriptures. We did not get to Matthew. We did not get to Mark.

We did not get to Luke. We did not get to John. We kept it on Jewish turf. And we just now, most of them have not read these things. I once had this conversation in my own home, we had a Christmas party.

in Israel when we first moved there. And we asked our Jewish Israeli believing friends. Are Christmas parties bad? Is that going to be offensive? Because we like Christmas.

But the Bible doesn't teach us that we have to celebrate with a tree and lights. They said, no, actually, uh you know, Israelis have seen Home Alone. They're kind of curious. They've never celebrated Christmas. But if you.

Had a Christmas party, and we do it with a white elephant gift exchange. We do it with a little actual competition to. design your Christmas cookies. If you invited people over, and then just before the white elephant gift exchange, which is really why they'll be there. You had somebody in Hebrew read a little bit of Luke, sorry, Isaiah 9, and And Micah 5, and then maybe Luke 2, just to kind of, and you say, this is why we believe what we believe, but okay, just so we did that.

This one guy gets up and he goes, After this whole evening, he's in my face like a classic Israeli Jew. He's like, Are you telling me? Are you telling me? Are you saying that the Messiah, our Messiah, has to be born in Bethlehem? Is that what you're saying?

I said, No, that's not what I'm saying. That's what you said. I'm not saying that. The prophet Micah says that. Wow.

I went to high school here. I went to grade school. We studied the Bible in school. They never taught us that. It's there.

You can see it. I can see it. How come they didn't teach us that? How come they didn't teach us that our Messiah has to be born in Bethlehem? I said.

I don't know. He goes, Joel, you need to go to the education minister. You need to yell at him. You need to say, why isn't this being taught? This is important to us.

I said, I don't know that that's my role. I think maybe that's your role. And I said, but but and then I used that thing, I said, look. You know, the Messiah cannot come anymore. Why not?

Because you guys gave away Bethlehem to the Palestinians. There's no Jews being born there. Oh, my gosh And he was like furious.

Now, I wish I could tell you that that led him into the kingdom. It hasn't yet. But he literally didn't know, and it bothered him. These are important, basic truths. We didn't even get to Isaiah 53.

We're just doing. the some of the basics But Jews don't most Jews American Israeli, we do not know this.

So we're not rejecting a doctrine that we've heard, processed, and said, no, that's not true. We're rejecting the history of Jewish-Christian relations. And Christians are violating Romans 10. How can they call on the name of someone they haven't heard? How can they call on how can they hear if no one tells them?

This is what the problem is. The church isn't telling.

Some of the church at least is providing. Support to Israel, political, moral, financial. But so much of the church, the Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church, even the Reform movement, and even much of evangelicalism. isn't telling our people The basics, and you would never, you know, your whole life is based on everybody needs to hear. Everybody.

needs a friend Who loves Jesus. And even if they don't know me personally, I want to at least get them to come to a stadium or listen to a podcast or watch a video and at least tell them, throw the seeds out there and see where they land and trust the Lord's going to. But most of the church at this stage, 2025, Greg, aren't taking your heart and applying it to Jews. Yeah, many aren't even applying it to Muslims. Our ministry is not applying it to anybody.

Well, that's true. That's the largest issue. But even those who do, who believe in the Great Commission, who believe in world missions. They aren't even trying to reach Jesus' own people. Jesus came in as an Israeli.

He came as a Jew.

Now he came to his own. His own received him not. That's right.

To those who did receive him, Gentiles, not exactly white trash, but I understand what your background, the way you say it. But you got it, and now you're making Jews jealous because you know the God of Israel, and most of our team doesn't. Speaking of that. We've got a. Inspire, not just challenge or criticize, but inspire the church who loves Israel and at least gets that.

to make sure that every Jew in the world has at least heard. The gospel.

Well, that phrase you used, make them jealous, that's an actual biblical phrase. Amen. That the Gentiles would provoke the chosen people, the Jews, to jealousy.

So years ago, I was in Israel leading a tour. I had a guide I often used. His name was David. I actually liked him. He was in classic Israeli.

And he loved to argue with me. And he would sit in the front of the bus. And debate me and contradict everything I said. But I really like this guy. Our conversations went on forever.

Once I asked him, David, let me ask you a question: Can you be a Jew and believe in Jesus and still be a Jew? No. Let me ask you another question. Can you be an atheist and still be a Jew? Yes.

Can you be a Satanist, worship the devil? And still be a Jew, yes.

So, can you believe in Jesus as your Messiah? And still be a Jew. No, I just thought that's not rational. But so anyway, we would have our debates at the front of the bus. And one day we came to the end of our tour, and I never felt like I made any progress to David Frankly, but the driver who Whose name was Naftali.

He said, and he spoke in sort of broken English: I was listening to what you were saying to David. Yes, he goes, I like what you're saying. I am jealous. Of your relationship with God. Use the verbiage that Paul uses, and he says, I would like you to come to my home and meet my family and tell my family what you've told David.

So Kathy and I went to his home. Oh, it was a beautiful meal. We filled up immediately on the first course, not realizing there were like three other courses coming.

So I was so full and sleepy. And now he has his whole family gathered. There's like 30 people in a room.

Some of them are serving in the Israeli military. And he says, Now tell my whole family what you told me. And I did. And it all started from a conversation. And he saw something in my relationship with God that in his words made him jealous.

So it's an illustration of what you just said. But let me just, if Garrett, we're going to wrap this up. I love that though. And thank you. Thank you that you are showing Your love for Jewish people in lots of practical ways, including helping buy a bulletproof ambulance, because sometimes you have to drive an ambulance into harm's way under fire, and you're trying to evacuate people out, and you don't want everybody on the first responder team to die trying to clean.

So, thank you. Because when you show the love of Jesus, You tend to have an open door to at least explain why. Why do you who love Jesus, why are you loving us when the rest of the world hates us?

So thank you. And I think that's true of all evangelism. I mean, I think the thing in reaching people, it's first just care. Care about them. People can tell if you care, build a bridge to them, and then that effectively earns you the right to share the gospel.

But I wanted to shift gears because you do have a new book out. About China. Yes. So you are a novelist. We talked about this earlier.

And in the past, you have have written about many topics. But this is your first book focusing on this. It seems to me that in a State of the Union address, The President talked more about China. Than anything else. He obviously sees, I mean, obviously, he's giving his attention to Ukraine, ending the war and there, our continuing relations with Russia and so forth.

And of course, you know, there's North Korea and Iran and all the things happening around the world, them getting nuclear weapons, but China. China is on the move. They're growing, obviously, as an economic power. There's been a lot of debate if we should keep TikTok in America because many feel like it's a way for them to get information. It's an operational Chinese intelligence system.

Exactly. Exactly. And interestingly, I don't think they have TikTok in China, do they? They have it. It works completely differently.

Here it's a propaganda tool that has become. Designed to be very sticky and attractive to our young people, but it literally sucks all your personal data and sends it to the Chinese intelligence networks. You don't have to necessarily shut it down. You would have to force Communist China to sell it off to an American company to be run differently. But right now, it's a national security threat that most young people, most people don't understand.

So they're in economic power. It's also, by the way, TikTok has been flooding social media with anti-Semitism, anti-Israel propaganda since October 7th. And this is a huge problem because young people are just absorbing all this stuff and they don't understand. It's a tool of one of America's worst enemies.

Well, they're saying that. A social contingent is happening specifically on the TikTok platform and pulling in more young kids, especially Gen Z kids, into the trends lifestyle, normalizing it, influencers, promoting it. And a lot believe that's happening. Young people. They're not promoting abortion and transgenderism and all this stuff.

That's just American and Western kids that they're pumping this stuff into. And then there's the military. Build of China. Their navy is growing. Bigger than ours.

Yeah, that's hard for us to believe. It is. But it's happening. And they're going to invade Taiwan in the next couple of years if we don't build an effective deterrence against them. The Chinese military strategists are saying that 2027 is the year that they will be ready.

Is that accurate? Maybe it could be sooner. Maybe it could be later. But we're, you know. President Trump is really worried about What he he's as you began this whole podcast by talking about In the culture today, even the President of the United States is talking about World War III.

He is worried that the Russian invasion of Ukraine, the Iranian regime being so close to building nuclear weapons, and then communist China. And Russia having nuclear weapons, Russia. being at risk of using tactical nuclear weapons in Ukraine. Communist China possibly using nuclear weapons to attack and destroy and devour Taiwan and unravel the American supremacy in the Pacific. All of those, all three of those, are leading us right to the brink of World War III.

And The President sees it, but he and his team. Rubio and others, Pete's Hagseth, a good strong evangelical at defense and others, are really having to deal with multiple huge. I write about them fictionally. But these crises are very real, and they could go sideways and lead to the death of millions. Didn't they just have a summit?

Russia, China, Iran, in Beijing. I called it the evil empire summit. It did not go well for the United States. These are three countries that are forming a closer and closer alliance. They are getting thrown off balance by President Trump.

They expected Kamal Harris to win, and they really felt, okay, well, then we'll have a snowflake that'll melt in the heat. We can advance our agendas in multiple directions in Asia, in Europe, in the Middle East. And Kamal Harris won't stop us. The reelection of President Trump is something they didn't see because they are their intelligence networks paid a lot of attention to American mainstream legacy media that didn't think President Trump could win.

Now that he has, They're huddling to figure out how do we advance our wicked schemes when we've got a president who isn't a pushover. And is re rebuilding American leadership and strength and trying to Rally American allies to get focused, start rowing in the same direction, start acting as allies, not as constant critics of America. Freeloading off American money and political support. What's the premise of your book, The Beijing Betrayal? The premise is.

Marcus Riker, the main hero, a former Marine, former Secret Service, working for the CIA. Is this your alter ego? It's not. No, it's somebody. James Bond to Ian Fleming.

No. No. This is, yeah, well, this is who I would love to be, but I will never be this person.

So that's why I make things up for a living. Marcus Riker has been hunting the world's worst, most dangerous radical Islamist terrorist, he and his team, for multiple books. Uh they are exhausted and they are now making mistakes. Uh and But they come upon intelligence that's telling them That communist China is getting ready to attack and devour Taiwan, the little democratic ally, island ally, not in years. But in days.

At the same time, Marcus and his team discover that That The Chinese have infiltrated the United States through the Mexican border with all kinds of. terrorist operatives, and they're about to Deliver to those operatives a new biological toxin, much worse even than the Ebola virus, to kill millions of Americans in the hours and days right before the invasion of Taiwan.

So the United States will be so internally paralyzed with this internal health crisis that it won't be able to. And look at how we're affected by the COVID virus. Absolutely. And where did that come from? Wuhan, China.

Now, was that a leak or was it an intentional release of this? Virus, whichever, the Wuhan virus, COVID-19, killed seven. million Yeah. And the communist Chinese have paid no Price for this. And they.

are one of the great Evil Uh Enemies of not only the United States, and freedom generally, but they're a great enemy of Israel. Communist China has is building this alliance with radical Islamist Iran as well as Russia. And those three together, that is the new axis of evil. And it's going to take every, we're going to have to pray for the president and his team to stand against and thwart these people have evil schemes. The Beijing betrayal is.

One of those schemes. I'm not saying this will happen. I'm saying this is one of the types of scenarios that they are cooking up because they communist China wants to destroy the United States. They don't want to just surpass us or be better than us. It's not a competition.

They see it as a zero-sum game. The United States has to be destroyed, it has to be humbled, it has to be neutralized, and then communist China can take over. And do we see this spoken of in the scripture? In my view, we certainly see communist China, well, we don't see communist China, we see the people of China are mentioned in Isaiah. The word is sinim.

And as the gospel is spread all over the world, the Bible says many will come into the kingdom. I mean, this is I'm using New Testament language to describe the way the Old Testament says it, but the message of salvation will go to the ends of the earth, to the north, to the west. Here we are in the West, and to the people of the land of Sinim. The Sinaim is a- is a is an ancient Hebrew word that means the Chinese people. Go look it up on all the all the Bible dictionaries and commentaries.

So We are seeing a huge spiritual awakening. In China. They've gone in the last 40 years from a million followers of Jesus to 100 million. This is the greatest spiritual awakening in Earth. Attempts of the communist government crush the church, to persecute the church.

At the same time, In Revelation 16, we read about the kings of the East, which I believe China is one of them. And what do they do? In the end times, they are going to rally the rest of the world, but it's going to be led by leaders in Asia. And they're going to come and attack Israel at a point that the Bible calls Armageddon. They could be one of the kings of the East as well.

They could, Pakistan, North Korea, but I believe it's going to be led by China. Can I say that absolutely definitively? I cannot. It'd be similar to believing that Magog is Russia. There's a little bit more data historically.

We won't get into that right now, but the Bible doesn't say Russia, it says Magog. And if all the historical evidence suggests that. The people of Magog are the people whom the Greeks called Scythians, and the Scythians are the people that founded modern-day Russia.

So that's where we get this idea. But again, we're looking at a word Magog. In the Bible, we're seeing the kings of the East.

Well, who's the greatest, most powerful, most evil king of the East right now?

Well, that would be Xi Jinping.

Now, we don't, again, But this goes back to our early part of the conversation. I believe that the kings of the East are going to be led by China. Does that mean it's communist? No, maybe this happens 50 years from now, and communism has imploded the way communism imploded in the Soviet Union, and now we call it Russia.

So I don't want to overreach. And tell a person, it's absolutely definitively communist China. I can't say that, but I can point people to. Um If China in Communist or non-communist is one of those kings of the East. And of course, it's the largest country, the largest military.

So there's a strong logic to it. If they're going to be meeting the anti-Israel attack in the end of the tribulation, then we would expect as we get closer to and deeper into the last days. That China will become more and more hostile to the Jews, more and more hostile to Israel, and stronger militarily. And we're seeing all of those things. That trajectory is consistent with prophecy.

And even though I don't I don't talk so much about I'm not explicit so much about prophecy in the Beijing betrayal. That is the context. When Joel Rosenberg writes a political thriller, Some thrillers, I make it very clear I'm writing about prophecy. I mean, the characters are talking about prophecy. I don't do that so much in Beijing Betrayal, but.

On this book tour, I'm trying to help people understand why. Why is China so much on my mind? Why do I believe they're a threat? And why do I believe they're a prophetic? Threat.

to the world And particularly to Israel. And that's what the Beijing Patrol is.

Well, we've covered a lot of ground. Thanks for all this time. Oh, my goodness. Thanks for having me. A lot of great insights into the importance of Israel, the importance of our relationship with the Jewish people, evangelizing them, and of course, about China and their place in Bible prophecy and what's happening in our world.

So thanks for doing what you do. You're uniquely gifted to do this. I think being a novelist, and you are a theologian, to combine those two things together, which means that you take that which is hard for many people to understand and the imaginative part of you, the humorous part of you, makes it accessible to regular people. That's a rare gift. And that's something that people need to hear because it was said of Jesus.

The common people heard them gladly. You know, I've never tried to impress people with my speaking, obviously, but I do want them to understand what I'm saying. And I want to speak in a way that regular people can just get this. And I think a lot of people listening to us talk maybe have gotten some insights into some things they wondered about before. I hope so.

I appreciate it. I'm blessed, as you are. It's one thing to have a calling, and when God says, when you speak, speak. You know, it's a gift that God has given you.

So speak as though it's the very words of God.

So the more you stick to the words of God, the better. You're an actual pastor, I'm not.

So I'm using. journalism or fiction to try to draw people to The actual scriptures. But one of the keys is having good teams. And you've got a great team here at Harvest. I've been blessed with having several teams.

The Joshua Fund is our ministry to bless Israel and her neighbors in the name of Jesus, strengthen the local church, get the gospel out, and raise up the church. All Israel news, all Arab news is our way of explaining what's really happening day to day. And then our show on TBN, the Rosenberg Report, again, just a weekly TV version of what's really happening in the church, in the Middle East, in the region, in the world, in the war. But all of that requires people around you that love the Lord and are really good at what they do. And I'm very blessed.

My wife and the teams that I get to lead are passionate about this stuff, and they really help me to, you know, a person by himself. Is uh You can only get so much done. But when you've got teams to help you. take that message and drive it much further. That's those fun teams to work with.

Well, thanks for doing it. Keep doing what you're doing. Thanks, Joe. Thank you. Thank you.

I appreciate it very much.

Okay, everybody, thanks for listening to my podcast. Before you go, I wanted to let you know about the important work we're doing here at Harvest. You know, we've had the same goal these last 50 years, which is simply this: we want to know God and we want to make Him known. And we do that in a lot of ways: documentary films, animation, radio, television, large-scale evangelistic events, and more. If you want to be a part of what we're doing to fulfill the great commission, you can support us with whatever you can give at harvest.org/slash donate.

Again, that's harvest.org/slash donate. And thanks so much.