Greg Laurie and Harvest Ministries recommend the bestselling book Cold Case Christianity from former detective J. Warner Wallace. That's a book we're offering this month to our listeners, Cold Case Christianity, written by detective J. Warner Wallace. A homicide detective investigates the claims of the gospel. So get your own copy of Cold Case Christianity. It's our offer for this month for your gift of any size.
Request yours for a limited time at harvest.org. Okay, I want you to stop and think about someone that you know that is not a believer in Jesus Christ and imagine them carrying a Bible, going to church, saying praise the Lord. Can you think of someone? We all know people that seem to be unreachable.
Well, I'm going to do an interview in a few moments with someone that fits that category. His name is Michael Franzese. He was a member of the Colombo crime family.
He was a mobster, a good fella, the real deal. And he has one of the most amazing conversion stories I've ever heard. I've had the opportunity to interview some pretty interesting people like Alice Cooper, rock star extraordinaire, Daryl Strawberry, famous for his great exploits as a baseball player, but also infamous for what happened off the field, being arrested for drugs and other things, and how God reached them.
But the story of Michael Franzese, to me, is one of the most amazing stories of all. And I hope that it will inspire you to continue to pray for people you know that don't know the Lord. So here's a thought. Get someone you know that you can't imagine becoming a Christian and get them to watch this podcast.
Try to get them to watch it all the way through. And I think as you hear the story of the mobster who became a believer, you will be amazed. So here we go. Michael Franzese. So you're raised in a home where your father is a mobster. Is that the right word to use for him?
Sonny Franzese. And how would you describe what he did for the Colombo crime family? My dad was the underboss, which means he was the second in command. So he was allegedly the closest to the boss. So if the boss died, does he immediately become the Don of the family?
Not necessarily. I mean, he would be first in line, but there's a lot of politics involved. But in my father's case, he would have been because he was popular and well liked among the men, so he would have been the next two. Was he an enforcer?
Didn't you tell me that once? You know, he was. By reputation, he was. Because my dad was a pretty tough guy. He had to find an enforcer. You know, he made sure that people stayed in line on the family.
And if there was any dirty work to be done, he would handle it either himself or he would put the team together to do it. When did you become aware of the fact that this is what your father did? Because I remember you told me he would show up at your baseball games and he would maybe have some guys with him.
Tell me how that played out. You know, going back to my earliest memory of something strange with my dad. We were living in Brooklyn. And for some reason, he moved us out to Long Island to my grandmother's house, my mother's mother and father. And he was gone for a couple of days.
And I'm like four years old, but I have a memory of this for some reason, this specific incident. We hadn't seen him. And then one morning, he comes all of a sudden. My father had a heavy beard.
He hadn't shaved. He came in the house. He embraced my mother.
I was sitting on the steps and I was watching this. And then I noticed his right hand guy who, you know, later on, I knew it was his right hand guy, Joey, was out on the porch kind of watching things, you know, while my dad was inside. And then he came over and he embraced me and hugged me. I miss his son, all that. And then he left. And what I found out later, our family was at war during that time. And so they were taken to the mattresses, as they say. And it was quite a while that he was gone.
We wouldn't see him that much. So that was the first realization. And for some reason, Greg, that sticks out.
I never forgot that. And I was like four years old. And you really loved your dad and admired him, didn't you? I did, yes. When you finally became aware of what he did, did you say, I want to be like my dad when I grow up? I want to follow his path? Or were you more like Michael Corleone who was pursuing a different path? You know, because his father, Vito, didn't want him in the family business, so to speak.
Pretty much the same. My dad didn't want me in that. He wanted me to go to school and be a doctor. Oh, a doctor.
Yeah. He said, you know, you're going to be the first professional in the family. He thought I had it in me. You know, I was a pretty good student. So I never had any interest in following in his footsteps in the life. But I did want to be like him because I really admired him, you know. But if you would have said to me at that age, what did I want to be?
I wanted to play center field for the New York Yankees. Like Mickey Manna was my idol back then. So, no, I had no interest in that. But I did want to follow my dad's presence, if you know what I mean.
Now, you felt yourself pulled into this life, as you call it, right? Explain what you call this life and La Cosa Nostra and all of that. Well, you know, Cosa Nostra Mafia, it's a very real criminal organization, I'd have to say that. And very big presence in New York. There are actually five distinct Cosa Nostra families in New York. Nine throughout the country, but five in New York. New York is really the stronghold of that life. Do they exist still as they did?
They do, but not the same. So five families. Five families. And, you know, my childhood was very turbulent because my dad kept getting arrested, indicted, going to jail, going to trial. So I witnessed that my whole young life.
And so I knew what the life was about. Obviously, my dad was a very high profile figure, always in front of the media, you know, they were always writing about him. So it was hard not to know about him.
As far as the baseball games, you know, I said he would never miss a game no matter what he was doing. He'd always pull up in a big black Cadillac or a black clean. Remember those 1960 Cadillacs, Greg?
They were huge, right? So he pulled right up to the field, get out of the car. He'd have five or six guys with him.
I'd be up to bat. The umpire would never call strike three on me when he seen my father walking up into the stands. So he was very supportive in that way, you know, but I knew everything that was going on. So I was visiting him in jail and going to the trials and all that stuff. But what happened is he went to trial three times, very serious crimes, grand larceny twice, murder once, but he was acquitted in all of them. But then in 66, they indicted him in federal court for masterminding a nationwide string of bank robberies. He gets convicted, gets sentenced to 50 years in prison and goes off to jail in prison, I should say, in 1970.
And that's when I was a premed student at Hofstra University in New York. And Joe Colombo was a boss of my family then, and I knew him well. He kind of took me under his wing and became another mentor of mine. And then I met a lot of my dad's friends. You know, Mike, if you don't help your father out, he's going to die in prison because, Greg, that particular crime that my dad did 40 years on, he actually did 40. He was innocent of my dad was not a bank robber. And I'll take that to my grave. I investigated the case, the whole thing. So I went to visit him in Leavenworth, and I said, if I don't help you out, you're going to die in here.
I'm not going to go to school anymore. And we kind of argued. He wasn't for it.
But then he kind of threw his hands up. You know, I was a pretty headstrong kid. And he said, if you're going to be on the street, I want you on the street the right way. In his mind, the right way was to become a member of his life. So at that time, he proposed me for membership because, you know, you can't just go up to somebody and say, hey, I'd like to join. You know, somebody has to propose you and vouch for you. In my case, it was my dad.
And there's a lot of nepotism in that life. A lot of fathers bring their sons or their relatives in basically for security reasons. If you're going to stand up, you're not going to cause trouble. So that's how it started for me.
I was 21. And there's a phrase you've told me about when you say he's a friend of ours or there's a variation on the way you introduce someone. Let's say you bring me to one of your mobster friends and I'm not in this life. How would you introduce me? Well, if you weren't in a life, I'd say this is a friend of mine, Greg. Okay. Now, if I am in this life, how would you introduce me?
I would say this is a friend of ours. Okay. Forget about it. Say that. Forget about it. Forget about it. Everybody says that. Yeah. It seems like when you go into New Jersey, don't they actually have that on their sign? They've totally embraced.
Forget about it. I have to tell you, when Donnie Brasco came out, I went to see it with Cammy. And when, what was his name? They played Donnie Brasco. When he got into that scene and said, forget about it, I was the only one in the movie that was laughing because I understood. Johnny Depp.
Yeah, Johnny Depp. I understood. And she said, what are you laughing about?
I said, Cam, you don't get it. And I think you told me that you felt that was the most realistic mob film because it was actually taken, Donnie Brasco. That was his name.
He is an FBI agent, was wearing a wire. So a lot of the dialogue in Donnie Brasco was real dialogue from that life. I thought it was Pacino's best role because I knew Lefty Ruggiero, the character he played, and he just killed it.
He was terrific. You knew the actual person? Yes. Wow. And of course, you knew Joe Colombo from the Colombo crime film. Yes, I grew up with Joe. Weren't you there when Joe was shot?
I was 12 steps away from him when he got shot. Wow. And it was the second time I witnessed something like that. And it was pretty eye opening.
Yeah. People have such a fascination with mob films. And of course, Scorsese has made many of them. And Coppola, of course, Godfather I and II. Of all the mob films, what do you think was the most realistic and what is maybe the most unrealistic?
Well, this is going to throw you a little bit, but the most realistic mob film, in my opinion, was a 1996 Gotti HBO movie with Armand Assante and Anthony Quinn. It was taken right from the surveillance tapes and the recordings, and it was so brilliantly acted. There was a scene in there that gave me the chills. It was so realistic. And that's when Anthony Quinn, who played, what's the name again? Delacroce, Neil Delacroce.
He was the underboss in that position. And when he came in and told Gotti, Armand Assante, that he saved his life last night with the boss. But if he hadn't said, if the boss would have said, you got to go, he said, I would have come in here and you would have went. But the way he said it, it was so realistic. It just gave me the chills. It was a very realistic movie.
Very well done. I mean, there were a number of them, but that's my number one. People get shocked when I say that, but that's my number one.
What would be like two and three? Donnie Brasco, very realistic. Goodfellas, obviously. Because that was a real guy, Henry Hill. Oh yeah. All those characters were real. Jimmy Burke was real.
Paulie was real. And I knew them all. That's why they put my name in that film. Yeah.
There's a scene in Goodfellas in the beginning of the film where the camera is panning down and they were introducing people sitting at the bar and they actually used your name in the film. Yes. And I was kind of stunned when I saw that because I said, that's a different... You didn't know that was coming?
No. You were sitting in a theater and that comes on and you had not, you didn't know that was going to happen? I didn't know it.
Wow. And Cami was like, we actually got up and left because that was such a graphic film. I didn't know what else was going to happen. So I said, Cami, we got to go.
Because she doesn't like to see any of that. So we left. But I called the writer up, who was a friend of mine, Nick Pellegier. And I said, Nick, why did you put me in that film? He said, well, you knew everybody and you got name value. And so we put you in.
I said, well, can you warn me next time? And like how accurate were the Godfather films? Brilliantly done. I mean, the acting was just so amazing, but not really accurate.
You know, the son doesn't take over for the father in a case like that. You know, the boss coming in. And there were some things that weren't accurate, but pretty much so it showed you a good depiction of the life. Did I hear somewhere that, because there was a series made, was it called The Offer? Yeah. And that was like your era, because your era was the 80s there. And when they were making The Godfather. Actually, that was the 70s. Oh, the 70s. Yeah, 70s.
Right. And they needed to get approval or cooperation from Joe Colombo. And so you were around in that very time. I was there through that whole thing.
I love that series, by the way, The Offer. It wasn't totally realistic, but it was really well done. But yeah, what happened when Joe Colombo had the Italian American Civil Rights League and heard that that movie was coming out, he was protesting it and causing a lot of trouble. So they had to really solve it with him or that film wouldn't have been made. So Joe Colombo played a major role in that film. Now, you travel around the world telling your amazing story, your unique story. I've never heard a story like yours before with the mob, with the mafia globally, not just in America. What is it that fascinates people about this? You know, I think the media had a lot to do with it, obviously. And some of these figures are bigger than life.
You know, I'll give you an example. About six or seven months ago, I was in a market and I was at the checkout counter. I noticed on the magazine rack, there was Al Capone on the cover of the magazine.
So I'm looking for content all the time on my channel. So I went and picked it up. The entire magazine was on Al Capone. Now, he's dead almost 100 years. Wow, that's true.
A hundred years. But it was fascinating some of the things that I read there. So it just never goes away. You know, guys like John Gotti and Joe Colombo and all these guys, there's really no other criminal organization that has characters like that. And I think that's what it is. And, you know, look, a lot of these younger people, when I go into prisons and juvenile halls, they say, come on, you know, you had all the money, you had the cars, you had the girls, you had all of this. And they've seen it from the movies.
And I say, I understand that. But did you see the end of the movie? Who got killed?
Who became an informant? They don't even look at that. They're just fascinated by what they see. That's glamorous.
And that's the whole world. Did you see The Untouchables? I did, yeah. Yeah.
So I wonder how accurate that was. Not really. Oh, really it wasn't?
No, no. Elliot Ness was made to be bigger than life. He really wasn't the one that brought Al Capone down.
Oh, really? Who did? It was the Treasury Department, but it wasn't him. It was an IRS type of case. They didn't have the IRS back then.
It was Treasury. So coming back to your story, so you're following in your father's footsteps. You're going to become a made man. So what is the process of having that happen to you?
And I remember you told me a story about when you were initiated. Tell me what happens when you become a part of the mob. Well, after kind of a recruit period where you have to prove yourself worthy to them. And if that happens, then there's an initiation.
You take an oath. And mine happened on Halloween night, 1975. And there was an expression before the 70s that the books were closed.
They weren't making any new guys for security reasons. In the 70s, they opened the books and they were starting to bring guys in. So I was one of the first that came in.
And they did that really out of respect for my dad because he needed me and he wanted me involved. So it was Halloween night. We walked into a room individually, the six of us. The boss was seated at like the head of a horseshoe configuration, the underboss in the consigliere, another high profile position, which is left and right. And all the cop regimes or captains were alongside of them.
We had about 15 in our family at that point. Walked down the aisle, stood in front of the boss, held out my hand. He took a knife, cut my finger.
Some blood dropped on the floor. I cupped my hands. He took a picture of a saint. Catholic altar card, put it in my hands, lit it aflame. It didn't hurt. Burned quickly.
It was merely symbolic. And he said, tonight, Michael Francis, you are born again into a new life. Violate what you know about this life. Betray your brothers. You will die and burn in hell like the saint is burning in your hands. Do you accept?
Yes, I do. That's it. Yet here you sit, alive, telling this story when there was a list made of the top mafia bosses or mobsters, and you were on that list. And I think most of them are dead and yet here alive. Who was on that list and what was that about? It was Fortune magazine wrote an article in 86.
It was like half the magazine, a huge article. And they featured six of the 50 of us on there. I was one of the six.
And they had a chart with the 50th according to rank, wealth, and power. And I was the youngest guy on the list. I was number 18. I was five behind Gotti at the time. He was number 13. He hadn't been made boss yet. And I always say it was a silly list.
They didn't ask for our tax returns. It sold a lot of magazines, but what's not silly about the list, Greg, is that out of the list of 50 today, 48 of them are dead. Number 49 is doing life in prison. And I'm the only one alive and free. How is it that you, you did serve 10 years, right? I got a 10 year sentence.
I served eight out of the 10, which is the maximum. How is it that you are sitting here living to tell the story and didn't serve maybe a longer sentence or that you were not targeted? Well, you know, I was targeted for a while because when I walked away, you can't do that. And a lot of people thought that, you know, normally when guys walk away, they become informants and they start testifying against people.
And that's what happens. But you never did that. No, I didn't want to do that.
I wasn't, I wasn't looking to hurt anybody. You know, Greg, it was, it was a crazy thing with me that some people don't understand. It's a treacherous life. There's no question. There's backstabbing and this and that, but it's like anything else.
It's a little more intense. The consequences are on the street. So when I left life, I wasn't mad at anybody. I didn't want to get even with anybody. I didn't want to hurt anybody. And I would never put my father in a position where his son was doing bad things to others because he was still in a life. But people didn't understand that. But I kept sending messages back, I'm not going to hurt anybody.
Don't worry about it. I just want out of life. And they said, well, why do you want out of life? And I told my dad, I said, dad, every family of every member of this life that I know has been devastated.
I said, look at our family. My mom, you know, 33 years without her husband. When she passed away, her relationship with my dad was ugly.
That's how much time he spent incarcerated? It's been 40 years, 50. And I said, you know, and she blamed you for everything went wrong. Now, what went wrong? My sister dies of an overdose of drugs. My younger brother's a drug addict, 25 years. I can't tell you how hard I had to work to keep him alive on the street. If it wasn't for me and my father, he would have been taken out. My other younger sister dies at the age of 40. She was never mentally stable. I says, and every family is the same way.
Every family. So I just met this young girl. I'm in love with her. I'm going to marry her.
Am I going to bring her into this? Number one, number two, I've been indicted seven times. I've been to trial five times.
I've been arrested 18 times. I said, I got a huge target on my back. I'm never going to walk away from this life.
One way or the other, I'm going to go down. I have to make a choice. And he kind of understood it, but he didn't go along with it because my dad was just too much a part of that life. He said, you took an oath.
I said, I understand that, but I have a young girl that I'm in love with. And at the same time, my wife introduced me to the Lord. And so I've got this whole, you know, it was very, very difficult to make the decision to walk away because I felt like I was betraying my people, my friends, my oath. But didn't your father in effect betray you? He did because when I walked away, well, I'll tell you what really happened. I think this is important for people to understand because I think my whole life story is it goes in three phases. Number one, my adoration for my father really wanted to be the best possible person I could be for him, whatever it might have been. When I got into the life, I wanted to make him proud. And then it was my heavenly father at some point.
And of course, my wife. These were the three most dynamic people in my life. But one of the horrors of that life is that you make a mistake, your best friend walks you into a room and you don't walk out again. And my 20 years in that life, obviously, I know people that went through that. So when I was on the street, I was making a lot of money, Greg, and I was a captain in the family.
They had elevated my position. And, you know, I was one of the younger guys. You know how it is in life. You're a younger guy.
You're doing well. You got the older guys that there's some resentment there. And you've got to know how to navigate that life. It's very, very difficult at times. You've got to know how to deal with people. And so there was a lot of talk on the street about me. And there was an article that came out in the Long Island paper that said I was becoming powerful enough to break away from the Columbus and stop my own family. It was like a fictional story. It was no truth.
I never even indicated that, never even a thought. But it started to get in people's heads. So my dad happened to be on parole during that 40 years.
He was he was he was on parole a few times, kept going back a total of 40 years. Silly. So he called me up and he said, I got to see you. So I go to his house and he says, the boss wants to see us tonight. I said, OK, what time you want me to pick you up? Because I drove him everywhere to try to protect him.
I didn't have a record at that point. So he wouldn't meet with anybody because he kept getting violated for associating with other criminals. So he said they want to do this differently. They want me to come in first and they want you to come in second. I said, well, why? I said, why are they going to separate us?
You know, there's talk on the street. We argued about it. I said, I'm not doing that. We're going together.
We're not going to let them separate us. After about a half hour, I threw up my hands. I said, Dad, I've been listening to you all my life. I don't like this.
But if this is what you want, I'll do it. Make a very long story short, I drive into Brooklyn and I meet another captain in the family who I knew my whole life. And I get in a car with him because we had to drive to meet the boss. It had to be a covert meeting because he was on parole. Everybody's on parole. Right.
So we couldn't bring the law enforcement there. So we're driving around. But when I get in a car, I notice there's somebody sitting in the back seat who wasn't a maid guy who I had met maybe once or twice. And I'm saying, why is he here? And as we're driving to the house, my good friend doesn't tell me what the meeting is about. And I don't want to look like I'm scared.
So I don't ask him. Right. When we parked the car was a summer day in August. And we had to go to a basement apartment in a house, single family house. And it was about a 30 yard walk from the car to the basement down the steps. And Greg, I was scared because I got out of the car and I started walking. I heard the two car doors slam. And I said, why is this kid, this young guy coming into this, you know, meeting?
Something's wrong. And I'm saying, I might get killed here. And I didn't want to show fear. People have said to me, why didn't you cut and run?
And I said, well, it wasn't heroic. It was really robotic. I was just so much a product of life by that time. I said, hey, if this is it, this is it. So I'm walking down those steps. And when the door opens, I knew that that could have been the last thing I saw.
I almost I probably almost fainted. I don't remember. But anyway, long story short, I'm here.
Right. So that didn't happen. But we had a real argument over the gas business. What they wrote in that article was that I was bringing down two billion dollars a year, which was crazy. And I was telling the boss, I said, you know, when they write about everybody else, it's a lie. When they're writing about me, it's true. I said, this is all nonsense.
Anyway, it goes over fine. OK. You know, we believe you. We're sorry. And let's have a drink. I don't want to drink. I want to go home. So I told Jimmy, drive me back to my car.
This is where it gets interesting. So when we get in the car, I was really upset with him because he's my good friend. He didn't prepare me. And it was trouble. And as I went to tell him something, he said, before you say anything, let me tell you this.
I said, what? He said, Michael, this was a real problem for you tonight. You you handled yourself well. It could have been a problem when he said that.
I got even more upset with him. I said, you're my good friend. I knew you my whole life.
And you don't tell me. So he looked at me. He was very smart, Greg. And he said, if it was the other way around, would you have told me? And I thought about it for a second. I'm being honest.
I said, no. So that's the life we lead. He said, you know it better than you grew up in it.
And then I'm thinking about that. And then as I go to get out of the car, we parked to go into my car, he grabs my arm and he says to me, I'm going to tell you something. You're not going to want to hear this, but it is the truth.
I am your friend. I said, what? He said, your father was in here before you tonight. He didn't help you one bit. He hurt you. And when he said that to me, it was like, what can my father have done?
I was shocked. I didn't even answer him. But as I'm walking back to my car, knowing my father so well and knowing what his legacy in that life meant, I know what he did.
And I verify this later. I don't do anything. My son handles everything. I'm on parole. If there's money missing or if he's got any ideas, I don't know anything about it. He kind of threw me under the bus, which is very dangerous. But I'll tell you what happened. Two things happened that night.
This happened two years before I met Camille. I never said a word to my father in that life. You don't say anything.
You just keep quiet. But if that incident didn't happen, I don't think I would have ever walked away from the life because I couldn't have hurt my father. So I believe in my faith now that the Lord showed me two things. Number one, he had to break that bond I had with my dad. And number two, he showed me that I could face death if I had to. So I knew when I walked away that I was going to have trouble. But I was prepared for it. And I totally believe, Greg, after this 30 years now that I'm a Christian, that I've watched how God navigates things in people's lives. And I believe that was the course he set for me.
And it was major. Yeah. So let's let's talk about that. OK, so you're finally convicted. Rudy Giuliani actually prosecuted you. You're in prison. And what's that like to walk into prison knowing you're going to spend, you know, you were sentenced to 10 years, right? You got out sooner.
But, you know, you're going to spend 10 years in prison. And in fact, you spent a lot of that time in solitary confinement in a place. Was it called the hole? Yeah.
The hole. What is the feeling one has when they strip you of your belongings and give you what? Tell me what happens. Well, it's it's very humbling. I can tell you that. I spent 29 months and seven days in solitary. Yeah.
In the eight years. What does that look like, solitary? It's a six by 10, six by eight, six by 10 cell. Is there a bed in there?
There's a cot. You know, it's like this. It's slimmer than this, actually, with a, you know, this thick. Toilet? You have a toilet and a sink that's attached. It's a stainless steel toilet and sink that's attached. And then you have a little stainless steel kind of a desk, you know, that you have. And that's it.
You know, independent. Is there a window? Sometimes. Sometimes, no. And they feed you every day? They feed you three meals a day. Like what does a meal look like?
Well, I got I got food poisoning there several times, usually from chicken. So I stopped eating. I just would eat bananas and cereal and cup of soup because I knew that that was sealed. So I'd cup of soup and and the rice that was sealed. I wouldn't eat anything else. So I lost a lot of weight in there. But, you know, and they push it through the slot on the door and you take it.
And then you put your tray out when you finish. And and that's it. There's no television, federal prisons.
They don't give you a television or anything like that. You got reading material and that's your day. So you're in this prison cell, isolated.
And you what? You start thinking, you start praying. How did you make the connection from where you were at at that point to seeing your need for a relationship with God? Well, what happened to me is, you know, on 10 years, if you don't get in trouble, they give you a good time. So when I did eight years, I didn't get in any trouble. That was the maximum good time that they were able to give me.
So I maxed out. I did all the time. But I had got out on parole after five years. I was on parole for 13 months. And during that time, the government was trying to get me to cooperate. And I also means rat out people.
Yes. They wanted me. There was cases they presented to me that they knew I knew about. And I wouldn't do it. I had other people. Why wouldn't you do it?
I just that's not who I am. If you would have done it, would you have not have to serve any time? And that would have been the end of it?
Yes. When I when I first took my plea, they offered me to, you know, cooperate. And I said, no.
So I got to tenure. If you cooperated, do you think you would have been whacked, killed? Well, they would have put me in the witness protection program. They would have changed my identity. I can't live like that. You know, it wasn't for me.
So I said, just give me my sense. That was it. And I had a big fine in restitution, too. And I had forfeiture clause. They took a lot out of me.
They really did. So I went in. I got the tenure sense. I got out on parole after five years. I was a model prisoner.
I didn't have any trouble. But during that time, it became very public that I was walking away. And that's when I had all the trouble. And they started locking me down for my own protection and moving me to different prisons. They put me on what they call diesel therapy, where they pick you up at two in the morning out of your cell. They put you on a plane that the marshals confiscated for somebody and they just move you to another prison. They fly you to another place? Did you know where you were going? I had no idea. But when you got there, you knew what prison you were in. I knew where I was.
Yeah. But you had no way to communicate that. No, no. And then they put you in solitary for two, three months, two weeks.
You don't know when. Then they pick you up again, take you somewhere else. So my wife, she didn't even know where I am.
They don't let anybody know for security reasons, they say. So she would try to call the Bureau of Prisons in Washington, find out where I am. So they put me on that for about eight months. They just kept running me around. And they were trying to weaken me so I would cooperate. I get out on parole.
And during that 13-month parole, it was a very, very bad time. I mean, people were, I mean, I came home one day and the FBI was in my house. And they told Cami that if I didn't leave by the weekend, I was going to be dead because they had sent some guys out to kill me.
And the FBI, whether they like you or not, they're obligated to tell you if your life is in danger. So she was nervous. I said, don't believe these guys. But she was nervous. So we picked up and we went to Palm Springs for a couple of days. And then they told me, you know, the threat is over.
Come on back. I don't even know if it was real or not. They were just playing a game with me to get me more scared.
I'm not sure. But I had to satisfy her. So we left. And then after 13 months, they violated my parole. And I was walking out of a bank in Brentwood and they picked me up. They leaned all my bank accounts, took every penny I had. They took my car, drove it away. They went to the house with a search warrant.
They cleaned. They went into Cami's purse and took all her money out of the purse. We had zero money. And we had two babies at that point. And she had a breakdown on me that she couldn't visit me for seven or eight weeks because she thought they told her I would never see the street again. I was done. And they were driving me down to the federal lockup in L.A., the jail, going to transport me to Brooklyn. Why did they do this? Well, they were just still trying to get information out of you. It was a nonsense violation.
There was nothing to it. But that night when they put me in a hole, they told me, we're indicting you on another major racketeering case. We violated your parole. We took every penny you have.
You'll never see the street again. So they throw me in a hole. And I have to say, I'm a pretty resourceful guy.
I always figure I can get something done. You know, you're not going to stop me. But that night I was out of answers. I said they took all my money. I said I can't fight another case. Rico case. You can't beat it with a public defender.
I spent millions of defending myself. I said they're not going to put me out on the yard. I'm going to spend the rest of my life in this hole and I'm going to lose the girl they did all of this for. She's not going to wait for me. She's 27 years old.
She waited five years, 13 months on the street. So I was I was done. And I'll tell you how serious it was for me. There was a point that night when I used to demean people that were suicidal. I said they were weak.
They don't face up to their troubles. I don't do that anymore. I wasn't suicidal, but I was so broken. I really want to lay my head on that counter and not wake up because it was too painful.
I visited my father over 20 years. I did all that time. I said, I'm going to put my family through that.
I'd rather just take me. I really wanted to just close my eyes. And, you know, you ever get to a point where it's too painful to think?
You don't even want to think. And I'm laying there and I'm just done. And then a prison guard walked by my cell and he said, you don't look good. He opened a flap on a door and I said, get away from me.
I don't want to see you. I chased him. I said, close the latch and leave me alone.
And he came back about maybe two minutes later and he pushes a Bible through the slot on the door. And my immediate reaction, because Camille and her mother were talking to me about the Lord. And I was you know, I respected them because they were diligent in their faith.
I saw it was real. So I respected it, but I wasn't really buying into it. I said, OK, you know, I respect you. And I was just really angry with God. I said, I married a Christian girl. I walked away from that life and you're supposed to be a great, wonderful God.
Look what you're doing to me. And I kind of that's her came out of me. So I jumped off the car and picked up the Bible and just slammed it against the wall. I was really angry. And then I picked it up and I said, you know what? I got nothing but enemies.
Everybody hates me tonight. And it's there's only me and God in this cell. I mean, it makes sense to believe in God. I believe in God. And I just picked up the book and I said, you know what?
I need some help, man. And I looked up at the ceiling and I said, give me something to make me feel better. I grew up a Catholic and I don't ever remember reading the Bible as a Catholic. I remember the catechism.
The priest read the Bible from the pulpit, the gospel. And I was an altar boy. But I don't remember reading the Bible. Maybe I did.
I don't remember. So I just didn't know where to begin. And I just held it open and it opened up to the book of Proverbs.
And I started reading it and I was just attracted by the brilliance of Solomon. I said, wow. Some of the quotes that he said in there were exactly what my father taught me.
Learn how to keep your mouth shut. You know, don't speak when you have nothing to say, you know, things like that. So I said, wow, my father was pretty smart guy.
I wonder if he ever read the book. And then I came to a verse, Greg, that just stopped me cold. I don't know why.
You know, and I've told people this. I don't have any special connection with God. He doesn't speak to me audibly.
I've never seen him in a dream. But now he speaks to my heart. But that night, something just got me. Proverbs chapter 16, verse 7.
You know, when a man's ways are pleasing to the Lord, even his enemies are at peace with him. And so it was the enemy's part that got me. And then for some reason, I think it was like the Holy Spirit said, who are you kidding?
You're a mobster. You married a Christian girl that doesn't make you a Christian. All these things went through my head. And then the last thing I remember being thinking was, but if you did turn to me, I can take care of your enemies. And it really meant something. And I started to read on, and then another verse came to me, which became the verse of my life, you know, really.
It's Proverbs 3, verses 5 and 6. Trust in the Lord with all your heart. Lean on in your own understanding.
In all your ways, acknowledge him, and he will make your path straight. But that night, I said, okay, God, this all sounds good, but you know what? I trusted my father. I took a blood oath. I was a good mob guy. Look where it got me.
Show me. And because I had nothing but time on my hands, 29 months to be exact, I dove into the Bible. My prison Bible has more of my notes than scripture.
I write on everything. And I had my wife start sending me in books on every faith because that's all I had to do. And I said, you know what? I may die in here. If there really is a heaven and a hell, I want to know if I'm going one place or the other.
And you know what else I did? I developed a very healthy fear of hell, living in solitary confinement. And I've always said it's good to have a healthy fear of things that are bad for you. And it just motivated me to really search for the truth. And, Greg, I came out of there a solid believer in the Bible, and Jesus is my Savior.
And I've told people this. I'm not the best Christian by any means, but my faith is rock solid. Nobody can ever tell me anything differently because of what I've researched, what I've seen in my life, and what I've seen God has done in other people's lives.
Rock solid. So my belief is never in jeopardy, no matter what happens. And I say this, and I know you can relate to this, even if I were to lose one of my children, at this point in time, I understand we live in a fallen world. I understand God never promised us heaven on earth. He promised us heaven in heaven. I understand the Bible is very clear. We're going to go through heartaches and hardships.
It's very honest in that regard. My faith would never, I don't think my faith could ever be rocked. And hopefully I'm a better Christian as a result of that. When I first met you, it was years ago. My goodness, was it 25 years ago? I came out in 96, and that's when I came to see you.
Right. So someone said to me, there's this guy named Michael Franzese. He was in the Mafia, and he wants to meet you. He said he used to listen to you in prison. First of all, I thought, no guy in the Mafia could be out. I mean, they probably would have killed him because I'd seen movies about the Mafia, and I was an expert. I'm kidding.
Don't they whack him or something like that? And I said, did he use the phrase sleeps with the fishes at any point or whack? So when I met you, I was suspicious.
I thought, what is this guy? I don't believe this. Because sometimes people have what we call a testimony, and they exaggerate.
They exaggerate what they used to do. And I thought, there's no way. And then I did a little research on you, and it was all true. And you were really that guy, but somehow you were listening to me when you were in the hole? I had a Sony Walkman, and I stumbled across you listening to your morning show that you had. And I'm reading the Bible, and I'm listening to you. And I have to say that you have a very soothing, honest voice. And when I had trouble with interpretation on some of the scripture, miraculously, you would clear it up.
Oh, wow. And I was listening to you every single morning. Oh.
Every single morning. So then I find out, I knew you were in Riverside from that. I said, I got to go meet Greg and thank him.
And that was my sole reason for going to see you. That's great. I remember that too. Yeah. So, but you told me there was something, there's a scene in The Godfather when, was his name, who was the guy who was the singer, Tony Fontaine or something?
Yeah. Yeah, he goes to Vito Corleone at Vito's daughter's wedding, and he can't get a part in the film, and he starts to cry. And Vito, I think he slaps him and says, be a man, right? So it's a big thing to be a man, right?
Is that true in the mob life or maybe in Italian culture as well in general? It's just be a man, be masculine, right? But you told me there was something about reading about Jesus and his suffering. Yes. And you realized this is the ultimate man. I mean, even Pontius Pilate said of Jesus, behold the man. Yes. What was it about that aspect, the masculinity of Christ in laying his life down for us that kind of appealed to you?
Well, here's what happened. You know, from the time I was a kid, all I ever heard my father say is the standard you have to live up to in life is be a man's man. Yes. Not only a man, but a man's man. Yeah. You know, it's one thing to be a man, but to have other men really respect you. Yes.
You know, you got to have integrity, treat women and children the right way. He stressed it. Well, that's all true, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah.
And then when I got into the life, the same thing. We're men of honor. We're men's men. Yes. We're above all the other men.
Yeah. You know, the one thing about that life, and this is kind of demeaning, but to a made guy, anybody that's not a made guy is a sucker. You could be the president of the United States.
You could be the pope. You're not a made guy. You didn't take that oath.
You're a sucker. We're men of honor. We're men above all men.
That's what the life teaches you. So growing up as a Catholic, and this is nobody's fault, I always had this wimpy view of Jesus hanging on a cross. Nobody ever talked about his manhood that I recall. So when I finally, that night, it actually started. I said, you know what, Jesus, I want to see what kind of guy he was. So I kind of separated his deity when I started reading the gospels. And I just looked at Jesus of Nazareth and his manhood. And that's what sold me on him. And, you know, it was even intensified when I went to Jerusalem, and I walked the Via Dolorosa.
And I always got the chills when I saw the three times that he fell. Yes. I said, how did he get up carrying that cross? Right. So his strength, and then, of course, his wisdom, and we can go through the whole characteristic of Jesus. So that sold me on his manhood.
Interesting. So, you know, I even said to myself, I said, you know what, if you emulate Jesus, try to be like him as a man throughout your life, you're going to be a better person. Everybody's going to benefit from you. And then I said, well, if I'm mistaken and he's not the savior of the world, well, when I'm dead, I'm dead anyway, but what did I have to lose? Right.
Emulating Jesus is a win-win situation. Yes. That's a powerful message to men. Right.
I said, you have nothing to lose. He's the greatest man that ever walked the face of the earth, the only perfect man, perfect in every way. That's who should be the person you want to emulate. Seems like we have a real problem in the culture, especially young men today, that they're just, you know, they call it toxic masculinity, which is ridiculous. And men are so diminished and denigrated. And it seems like a generation of young men are looking for role models. You know, I did an interview and you've done an interview, you did a podcast with them as well, Jordan Peterson. He's been a powerful voice to young people and to young men in particular, because maybe he tells them things their dad didn't tell them. Maybe they didn't have a dad growing up.
I don't know, but like clean your room. That's kind of a thing. You know, just start there.
Start with simple things in life. But I think that young men today are looking for masculine role models. You know, maybe it's because of a lack of fathers in our culture, which is an epidemic. One expert said we are in danger of becoming a fatherless society, and you can almost take every societal ill in America today and trace it to the breakdown of the family, and specifically to the absence of fathers.
Yes. So what would you say to someone that's looking to the idea of being a masculine role model? If they don't have a dad, where would they find such a person? Well, that's up to all of us, you know. Greg, I spent time in prison with a lot of young people coming into the system 20, 21 years old.
You can write the same script for every one of them. Broken home, no father figure. Every single one of them. They gravitate to the street, they get to the local drug dealer, gang banger, end up in prison.
They have no guidance. And I believe we as a society, I say we created the environment that they're living in, and we owe something back to these young people. Unfortunately, there's a section of society that wants to dumb down manhood. And I tell these young people, and I tell even women now, if a man is acting like a man, it's not demeaning to women, it's a benefit to women. They do what they're supposed to be doing as a man.
They provide, they protect, they nourish, they take care of. And I think that's the message that we have to give young men. And it resonates. But we have to do it.
Because where do they go? And I totally agree. It's the breakup of the family that's all these issues that we have. And just to not forget the ladies, I mean really in many ways the hero of your story is Camille Cammy.
I mean she stood by you through thick and thin. And I can say, you know, because you had your challenges growing up and you talked about the problems in your family, but I look at your family today. You know, you're the head of your family. And I look at the wonderful family and how you've loved them and nurtured them and done all the things you're saying a man should do.
You've done that. And a beautiful family. And your wife, tell us a little bit about what gave her the strength to stand with you through years of all of these legal challenges and your incarceration. Well, you know, I mean first of all, she will tell you I love my husband, but if God wasn't in the foundation of our marriage, I wouldn't have made it through. So it was her faith that gave her the strength? 100% her faith. And I was very fortunate in that her mother and her grandmother were strong women of faith.
Wow. You know, Greg, one time, this was early on, when they finally started to know who I was, I told her mother, I said, listen, I'm going to bring some baggage into your daughter's life, not intentionally, it's just from my past. I said, but I promise you I'll never hurt her. I love her. She became my strongest ally. And when I went back into jail the second time, she was the one that kept Cami strong because it was very difficult, very difficult. But I'm going to be honest with you, my wife and I are partners in every way. She does her job wonderfully.
I do my job. And I put her on a pedestal because she deserves that. And whatever she wants from me, she got. And obviously she doesn't ask anything that I shouldn't give her. But as far as I'm concerned, she's a better person than I am. And she's more perceptive than I am, I have to tell you.
She'll know when somebody, because I'm an entrepreneur kind of guy and I get involved with people and she knows somebody right away and she says, I don't want you dealing with that guy. Oh, really? Yeah. And she's right 99% of the time. Yeah.
So I mean, if it wasn't for her, I'd be dead or in prison for the rest of my life. Wow. That's a statement right there. So you travel around the world telling your story and there's young men today that you already alluded to that are drawn to a life of crime. It's kind of glamorized. And certainly these mob films can have a certain appeal.
But those are movies. That's not real. The real life, you've lived it. What would you say to a young man who's drawn to a criminal lifestyle? It might be a gang or some other way they would express that. Like, what would your word be to them?
Because you've literally been there and done that. Yes. You know, I drive two major points home to a lot of the young people that I'm with all the time. And it's two things. I say to them, remember this in this world, you are in this life who you hang out with.
Oh, yeah. If you hang with the wrong crowd, you're going to be known to be the wrong type of person, even if you think you're a good person and they are going to influence you and they're going to bring you in the wrong direction. Who you hang out with, who you surround yourself with, very important. Secondly, I tell them, who you are accountable to in life is going to direct the path that your life goes down. I say, when I was on the street, I was accountable to my boss, to my oath. I was a criminal.
Now I'm accountable to my God first, to my wife, my children, people that rely on me, don't want me to disappoint them, so my paths are a lot straighter. I said, so the criminal life is the wrong people to be around. You're going to go to jail, you're going to get hurt, something's going to go down, and who you are accountable to. And I tell them, accountability is very important.
Even if you're a boss, you have to be accountable to somebody or something. And the message really resonates. And I tell them, listen, I was part of the biggest gang in the world, and I walked away for a reason, and I've been successful in doing that, and that's when I give them the faith message. And it really resonates, Greg. God has blessed me because I've been there and done that, and you have credibility. And credibility is everything when you talk to these young people.
Otherwise, they'll turn your right off. Yeah, so it's like the old adage, show me your friends, I'll show you your future. In Psalm 1, blessed is the man that walks not on the counsel of the ungodly, or stands in the way of sinners, or sits in the seat of the scornful. The word blessed can be translated happy.
You want to be a happy person? Don't hang around ungodly people, people who mock God. But then it says in contrast, but His delight is in the word of the Lord, and in it does He meditate day and night. And then it says, and He'll be like a tree planted by the rivers of water that will bring forth fruit in His season. His leaves shall not wither, and whatever He does shall prosper. So God will bless you. Like you're talking about Proverbs, trust in the Lord with all of your heart. Don't lean to your own understanding, and all your ways acknowledge Him. He'll direct your paths.
God's plan is better than our plan for ourself. So, you know, and I'll say something about your dad, too. Even though you had a rough relationship, and your father, well, I'll just say wasn't the perfect role model. He was a very flawed man. But you loved him, and he lived a very long life. In fact, at one point, wasn't he the longest serving prisoner in the system? He was released in 2017 at the age of 100.
He was the oldest inmate in the federal system. I know, I mean, because you'd tell me about him often, and you would go and visit him in prison. What was Sonny's reaction to you being not only a Christian, but in effect, a guy who's taking your story and using it to bring others to faith? Did he like that? Did he not like that?
I'm going to sum it up quick. You know, one of the guilts that I carry with me, and it bothers me, is that I don't think I ministered enough to my dad. It was very hard, you know. It's always hard, though, with your parents, but it's hard. You had a very unusual situation, too, let's say.
Yeah, it was hard. But I had once spoken at a place, I think it was in Pennsylvania, and it was a big gathering, and the chaplain was a woman there, and she said, I'm so moved by the story of you and your father, I want to go visit your dad. And I said, great, if you can get in, do it. So she was very aggressive. She gets in.
She spends three hours with my dad. She told me two things. She said, you know, when I walked in, because my father wasn't expecting her, when I walked in, she said, I'm the chaplain. And he goes, oh, really, my son is a pastor. And I'm not a pastor, but, and I said, well, how did he say that? He said, he was very proud of that. So that like, wow, I never realized that, because he didn't really indicate that to me. And then she told me, she said, your dad and I read the Bible for three hours, and he accepted Christ.
Oh, my goodness. Now, I didn't see much evidence of that afterwards, but who am I to doubt that, you know? So I felt really good about that. And I had so many people praying for him, and I believe in the power of prayer.
I would disagree with you. I think you were an excellent son, and I know how many times you went to visit him, and I know it was hard for you, but yet you sowed that seed and prepared the ground. And that lady, you know, shared the gospel. And if Sonny Franzese died believing in Jesus Christ as his Savior and Lord, regardless of the sins that he committed, he was forgiven, just like the thief on the cross who, and, you know, the thief probably was a murderer, because they didn't crucify thieves.
So he probably was an insurrection that was guilty of serious crimes, for sure. And Jesus said, today you'll be with me in paradise. I think you're a great son to your father. And, you know, you had a very rough life, but I love the way that you were able to go back and, you know, bring grace and forgiveness to your dad. And I know, you know, with your family as well, you care about them a great deal.
I'm talking about your siblings and such, and the challenges you've had there. So, you know, I think you have one of the most remarkable stories I've ever heard. And to me, it's almost like the story of the Apostle Paul. I mean, Paul was a murderer. Paul, you weren't a murderer, but Paul was. And Paul was living a godless life, thinking he was living a godly life.
And the last thing he planned on doing was becoming a believer. But God reached out and touched him. And it's interesting, he didn't do it through a person.
He did it supernaturally. Most of us come to faith when someone shares the gospel with us. And in a way, a prison guard opened the door for you. But ultimately, you had a personal encounter with Christ in a prison cell. The Lord just said, you're going to be my son now.
And you could have said no, but of course you said yes. And it's just an amazing story. And I think your story says to anybody listening to us right now, no one is beyond the reach of God. I mean, if God can reach Michael Franzese, if God can reach Sonny Franzese, who can God not reach?
And so maybe what would you say to someone who has a son or a dad or someone they know that has turned their back and God has no interest in spiritual things, what would you say to encourage them to not give up? Well, you know, just two recent encounters I had. I spoke in a men's group Friday night and a fellow that I was in prison with. Oh, wow.
Yeah, who was a wild guy in prison, to say the least. He heard, he lives in the same area with the church that I was going to, and he heard about it and he said, could I come and see you? I said, sure. He said, can I bring my wife? He said, because we realized, well, it's a men's event, but if you're not uncomfortable, yeah, I'll work it out. So he came with two of his friends and their wives also. And that night they all accepted Christ. Oh, man. Yeah, and this was, I hadn't seen him in years because we were in prison together.
And so why ever give up? And he was a wild guy. And then this is even more fascinating to me. My younger brother who had that drug problem, he ended up cooperating with law enforcement. He became an informant and he actually testified against my dad in a case that sent my dad back to prison. I hadn't spoken to him for 10 years. I was angry with him. And then my 70th birthday was a surprise party and Cami invited him.
And that was three years ago. And now we've been very close. He explains, you know, Greg, my three brothers and sisters, you all handle things in life differently. They weren't able to handle the turbulence through our childhood. For some reason, you know, I was able to. But when he explained to me some of the reasons why he did what he did, it started making sense to me. You know, I said, you know, who am I to be inside his head and understand what he can handle?
He couldn't handle certain things. And now he's come to the Lord, you know, as a result in the past three years. Another guy, some people that listen to you may know who he is, Sammy the Bull Gravano. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I was in church. He was with Gotti, right? Yeah.
He was the one that testified against Gotti and admitted to 19 murders. You have a part in this, too. We were in church, Cami and I, one day. And you said, is there anybody out there that you should be praying for?
Just pray for them. So Cami turned to me and said, let's pray for Sammy. So I prayed for Sammy and I mentioned that to him. He got upset with me. Yeah. He said, what are you praying for me for? Right? Okay.
I said, Sammy, calm down. It's a good thing, right? Well, six months ago, he got baptized and accepted the Lord. I did not know that. Yes. Yeah.
Right out here. He did. Wow.
He's walking with us. That is amazing. Because I know you guys have done interviews before and kind of had a little bit of a conflict. Rebutted heads. Yeah. Yeah.
Because you're two of the very few living, surviving guys from that life that are out there talking about it. Yes. Wow.
That's great news on Sammy. Yeah. He accepted the Lord. And was he not an enforcer, what we might call a hit man? Yes. He admitted to 19 murders. Oh my goodness.
19. And he cooperated. He went into the program and all of that. But when people, I have to say this too, Reagan, maybe you'll understand. People have knocked me for being friendly with him now. Yeah. Because he gets a lot of bad stuff said about him on social media. And I tell people, listen, I was one of those guys, I don't judge a person's heart.
Yeah. I have tried my best to lead him to the Lord. I'm not saying I'm the sole person that done that, but he saw by example who I am, but I don't back off of people because of what other people say, because with God, anything is possible, anything. How can we reach a person if we don't have dialogue with them? I mean, Jesus sat down with the woman at the well, with the woman caught in the act of adultery.
He engaged with Pontius Pilate, the Roman governor. We want to reach them and we have to have communication with them. As Paul said, I become all things to all men.
That doesn't mean you compromise your beliefs, but it means you have to talk with them and try to reach them. And I think you do that well, wherever you go. Well, Michael, thank you for all that you do. God bless you and your family, your wonderful family, and the way you travel around as a representative of Christ and reach people that I could never reach, that many of us wouldn't reach, but you've taken your mess, you've turned it into a message.
Your test has become a testimony and God is using you and I know he will continue to do so. And thanks for taking some time so we could have a sit down together. This is a sit down.
Yes. A sit down. But that's kind of a phrase in the mob. What would that mean? We're going to have a sit down. That's not a good thing generally, is it?
No. It's, we're deciding something could be very important. But I do want to say this, you know, I appreciate so much, you know, what Harvest has done for me and my family. Now obviously we go back, we go back a long time from a prison cell and just the support my whole family has gotten through some, you know, turbulent times that we've had. And I always hold Harvest up as an example of what a church should be, so I thank you for that. Appreciate it. Thanks for coming on. Thank you.
Hey, everybody. Thanks for listening to my podcast. Before we go, I wanted to let you know about the important work we're doing here at Harvest. You know, we've had the same goal these last 50 years, which is simply this, we want to know God and we want to make Him known. And we do that in a lot of ways, documentary films, animation, radio, television, large scale evangelistic events, and more. If you want to be a part of what we're doing to fulfill the great commission, you can support us with whatever you can give at harvest.org slash donate. Again, that's harvest.org slash donate, and thanks so much.
