More Mormons?! (ft. Victoria Collins)

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Fun fact, no. I have to make my own with McDonald's Sprite, and you guessed it, Texas Pete. I am genuinely horrified to hear that.

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Where's my Mountain Dew? You're listening to Clear View Today with Dr. Abbadon Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis. You can find us online at ClearViewTodayShow.com. Or if you have any questions for Dr. Shah or suggestions for new topics, send us a text to 252-582-5028, or you can email us at contact at ClearViewTodayShow.com.

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We're going to leave a couple of links right there in the description so you can help us do just that. We are here in The Clear View Today Studio with Dr. Abbadon Shah, who's a PhD in New Testament textual criticism, professor at Carolina University, author, full-time pastor, and the host of today's show, along with very special guest, drum roll, please. Let me get that drum roll. Go ahead and hit. There it is.

Ms. Victoria Collins. Good to see you. Thank you for having me again. I love it here. Welcome back. Welcome back. So glad to be here. You know, we've been, okay, I was just gonna say, we've got a lot of feedback about the episodes you've been on. People are latched on because maybe they have come from a background that's different from Christianity, or maybe they have a person who, you know, is, is Mormon or has been, has some ties to the Mormon church.

And so having your help in navigating this conversation has been, has been great. Yeah. If you're listening on the radio, Victoria is an ex-Mormon. We had her on the show a couple of weeks back.

We had her on the show yesterday. Dr. Shah, you know, it makes a difference because it's not just, we're talking about Mormonism out there. We're talking about somebody who came out of that movement. And, and so you're hearing their personal life, their testimony. So it has a very different dimension. So you don't have, you don't even have to do a structure and say, let's talk about this now. It's just naturally flowing. And it's, we're overwhelmed by the response we received the first time. It's organic because it's your experience.

And it's crazy because it adds an element of gravity to it as well. You know, when it's just beliefs and worldviews that exist out in the ether somewhere, you know, it's, it's kind of easy to make light of it or to just say, oh wow, that's really interesting or that's wacky. But when it's a person that was like, this is my life, this is, this was my struggle. This was what I lived through and what I had to overcome. Well, I think one of the things that hit me the most, especially on yesterday's episode, as we were talking as Dr. Charles, you were sharing the story about that young man that we know who, you know, said that he was going to the mission field and we're like, okay, great, wonderful.

And then lo and behold, he's going on mission with the Mormon church. I mean, that's somebody from our community. And then Victoria, to hear you talk about, you know, these are people who are next door to you. These are your neighbors. These are your coworkers. These are, you know, family, friends. These are, these are people that you know. I mean, this isn't something that's far removed from us.

This is something that's here and it's important for us to address it. Well, it's also, it's confusing because the Mormon church will profess to be a Christian church. And so when you hear that as an, as a non-Mormon, you're like, well, I, you know, what, what do they believe? I guess maybe they are. And you just hear it for long enough that you just say, maybe they're just kind of wacky Christians or they're weirdo Christians, but they're still Christians. Right. Right.

And the problem there is because unlike other religions from coming from other parts of the world, these are people born and raised here. They're dressed like us. They talk like us. They look great. Like they're kind. And when you have a new baby, they bring you food and like people don't do that that much that often nowadays. And they, they are, they're in your community.

They're running for local politics. They're, they're, they're just inner wove into our daily lives. So how would Mormons, and again, we're not bringing a theological academic discussion here, but in your understanding growing up, how would they view the doctrine of God? Well, first it took me years after salvation to understand the Trinity.

Everybody would explain it to me over and over. My husband, just regular, you know, Christians and I just didn't get it until one day it just clicked like, this is a big God that we serve. He's big, but they humanize God. So God has a human body. It's not Jesus. God the father has a human body. He's flesh and blood and bone.

Was he always God or did he become God? From what I was told younger, cause this stuff isn't just in the Book of Mormon. This is just like the side teachings that they, they give out because obviously if this was mainstream news, we Christians would be pounding on your neighbor's door. You know, I think that would go, go to the aspect. Cause we'd be like, we're worried about you. Like we love you. Like that's, that's, this is not a truth, but that God was, had, went through the test like here on earth is a test if we're going to choose God or not. And so God was actually one of us one day, like a man, not a woman, cause obviously no, no women, but that he was a man. And that if we are obedient here, we do exactly what the church says that one day that we can be the God of our own planet. And we can also have, yes. And we could also, or Jesus Christ, you could be cause there's different roles.

That's not the, so it depends on the life that you live. Also women, because we can't be left out, you know, or they can't be, it's not we, it's they. They can't be left out.

They get to be heavenly mothers and have spiritual children for all eternity. And so, yeah, it's pretty wacky saying that right now. Honestly. Joseph Smith said, if the veil were rent today, rent, like torn, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power was to make himself visible. I say, this is what Joseph Smith said, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form. So God, the father was a man like, and he's the God.

I have to bring pictures cause like my parents still have like pictures, like inboxes, but like he's like got a white beard and right hair. I think they took revelations and just really went wild with it. Like revelations took me a while to go through and now I understand it a lot better.

A lot of doctrine went off the hard parts of revelation and then just expanded by it. So based on your life, you could either be like the creator sustainer of your own planet or the savior messiah of your own planet. You can be your own Jesus.

Or if you're a woman, you can, you'll be married to God. So God, I think that's where all of his wives came in. God the father is just, he's just a God of earth. Has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's. The son also, but the Holy Spirit has not a body of flesh and bones, but it's a personage of spirit. Were it not so the Holy Spirit could not dwell in us.

So that's sort of how they, this is coming out of their doctrine and covenants. So I'll be, so he's just the God of earth. He did everything that I'll go through on this, like I'll eventually have my own planet and I'll be God too.

So he's just one, he's just one of many guys. You go to the temple and you keep the, you know, the commands, the word of wisdom, all of the checkmark things. If you're good enough, but if you're not, then you're going to get, you're going to get a lower level. You're going to be working hard. You're not going to, I got like the home depot So that was my question is like, come on, I don't want the dollar tree of plants. You were good, but not quite so good to be like God of a planet.

Good. Like what is the next tier? There's three different, uh, it's the celestial, telestial. I'm not sure. There's three different, look at that, Google it.

Um, there's three different ones. So if you don't live a good enough life, then you still get heaven, but you get a little water down or a little bit different option. You're not probably going to not get your own world. You get, you get heaven, but not like the heaven plus. Okay.

I got to subscribe for that. That's the premium, celestial, terrestrial and telestial. I don't know. Those are the degrees of glory. Now, when it comes to the doctrine of Christ.

Okay. So we believe biblical historic Christianity that Jesus Christ was born of a Virgin. He, uh, he, who existed in all time, but the father and the spirit part of the eternal Trinity, right? He became man. And as a man, he possessed still does two natures, the human and the divine. And when he was here, he lived a sinless perfect life and willingly died on the cross for our sins as promised as prophesied in the old Testament. And his sacrifice was for the sin of all humanity, right? This is God becoming man to take our sins upon himself.

The second person becoming us. Okay. So now going back to Mormonism. So Mary actually did the deed with God.

Okay. Like physically did the deed. And so that's how it went down.

It was not the Holy Spirit, you know, I'm like, no, I mean, I guess not. Right. It was actually, that's what I was told. So yeah. So that's the totally different scenario. And also his, um, the atonement of Jesus Christ was not that he took all the sin on, on the cross. Like he, it wasn't for that.

It was just some in the, they took on the sin and the garden of Gethsemane. And then he, you know, he's, he's a part of it. You have to believe in him, but you also have to be good and do these things. What is the thing about Jesus being our brother? Like our literal brother?

Not like a, not like a spiritual brother, but He's actually Satan's brother. So they're brothers. So, so they diminish that. Yeah. They diminish that.

Right. So Satan is the brother. And, um, and that he was, they both wanted to be Jesus. They were fighting in heaven over being Jesus. And Satan's like, I'm just going to go there and I'm going to rule and they're going to follow me. And Jesus was like, it's a great story, right? But it's not the truth. It's terrible to somebody that is questioning or just struggling with the actual truth of the Bible. Um, but yeah, so he's, he's the, and then he won it because he's like, no, I want people to choose to believe in me.

I don't want that. And so that's when they had the great war cause they amplify, like that's when they had the great war in heaven and cast him down. So they take portions that we know coming from the Bible, but then sort of re-make this thing into a whole different truth. So yeah, his atonement provides immortality for all people regardless of their faith. So Christ, according to the book of Mormon, right? This one right here, uh, thus overcame physical death because of his atonement. Everyone born on this earth will be resurrected.

This condition is called immortality. All people who ever lived will be resurrected, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, the wicked and righteous. So you don't even have to be a Mormon to be ready to be. Cause the baptisms for the dead in the temple. Um, so say your loved one that you deceased, you don't know if they, they had salvation in Jesus Christ. They're literally like, this is the, this is the very real spiritual part.

And as Christians, we need to be awake too. And we need to understand what God is speaking over this because it is funny, but at the same time, it's so serious. But in the temple you do baptisms for the dead, for your loved ones that have already passed on to try and get them salvation in the afterlife that you're trying to do the baptism for them. Like you're playing around spiritually, which we know that the authority is from Jesus Christ.

So we already know the truth, but they are literally on a deep level doing these rituals, thinking that they can save people that are already dead that have not chosen, but they don't really know because these are ancestors that go way back. And so are you, are you also baptized for the dead? I mean, did you do that? No, and praise God, because I was not, you have to be 12 to go through the temple, but I was, I didn't actually go through the temple. So your parents probably had that.

My parents and my siblings did. And that was the thing. And they have a big baptismal font with oxen that carried, you know, that it's the oxen that carried all the people over to Utah. And they have a big font and you just baptized and you get in line and get out and you get re-baptized in that person's name. And then you get out and, and so it'd be taking like all the youth group and telling them they don't know what they're doing. And, but they're doing something like this is real. This is happening right now. So, so, so this is, I didn't know about that.

So they just kind of, the same person goes again and again and the same for a different name. That's how many people you need to get baptized for. So how, how wrinkled are they?

So wrinkled. Bless them. So like you, you, do you bring the list? Do you say, I want to get baptized for my grandmother? They have the list for you.

You can. My mom did that cause they have all the genealogy, like ancestry, they own ancestry and they do all the genealogy cause you want to confirm like they're family. Like I got your family. Don't worry if he didn't believe in Jesus or he, it's okay. We're going to go and do this ritual and you've done this genealogy. So we're going to go save him.

We're going to pull him from hell and put them in heaven. Wow. I was praying on like that selflessness.

Like I want to do this for my family. I want to make sure they're taken care of. Wow.

Do you understand where, where it's intriguing where Satan really gets a stronghold because you're like, Oh, I know they weren't saved, but guess what? I can go and baptized. I can help them. I can fix it.

Wow. How do they handle, how do they handle like scripture and like authority and stuff like that? Cause you mentioned that Jesus Christ has the authority.

Let me go there. So we believe biblical historic Christianity, the Bible, old and new Testament is a unique, revealed and inspired word of God. And it is the sole authority for faith and practice.

The Bible, old and new Testament, 39, 27 together coming and making 66 books. Yeah. Mormonism. They have that.

And then they have the doctor incumbents. They have the book of Mormon. Um, you can only read the King James version cause that's the only true, that's the only closest biblical like translation. Um, they also demeaned the Bible and I was told, don't trust the Bible because it was written by me and I was like, who else is going to write it?

But, um, yeah. The book of Mormon is written by God or by the prophet of God? Um, prophet, which is the same, which is from the golden plates. Cause he found these, uh, golden plates that only he could see. Right. And that's where it was from. He was told by an angel Moroni. Yeah.

Macaroni. No, which is wild. If you notice, if you are just driving around and you see a, a Mormon church, you do not see the cross anywhere. There's nowhere. I never see it. And when I walk in here, I love that we have the cross right there.

That's so important. But on all of the temples they have Moroni because he's the one who gave them the true gospel because the gospel was messed up. So that was just not the truth. So, so they would say that the book of Mormon is completely authoritative. It's the word of the living God. The Bible is helpful, but it's not inerrant. Very much like Islam. Really?

Yeah. So you take it with the Bible Islam or Quran doesn't exist because Quran is a referential book. It's referring to stories in the Old Testament. Cause I mean, they don't even talk about who Abraham really is. They just say, you know how Abraham or you know how Moses. So if you tell the Muslims, Hey, don't, don't read the Bible. They have no context for their context. So, but at the same time they will say the Bible is manmade. So, okay. So they won't, they won't dismiss the Bible. Like say, Hey, none of that's real.

They'll just say, you've corrupted it. The church has corrupted the Bible. So, and then of course the church's president, he's also like the seer or the prophet. There is a prophet.

And I think he's like 99 years old right now. That leads into a great discussion because they, they have really weird views on humanity. Like they, they believe that there's, there's tiers of humanity, I guess.

Right. Is that we believe human beings are created in God's image, right? The book of Genesis says that we have personal qualities, very similar to God. And every person is unique, precious and worthy of dignity and love and all that. And one race, the Adam's race. We're coming from one Adam and Eve.

Yeah. And Mormonism, like the story of Cain and Abel when I was taught as a child, that God hated Cain for what he did to his brother and he turned his skin black. Really? I'd always heard that. I didn't know that.

I was like, okay, so teach racism as a child. I didn't know that was a Mormon thing. I had heard that, but I didn't know that was.

No, like that's a major Mormon thing. I had heard that. Wow. Wow.

That's, that's so wrong. No, like I said, I heard that, I'd heard that theory before, but I didn't know it was coming from the Romans. I've heard recently that they've tried to. And that people are like, they would say that if you are black, that you could not hold the priesthood or anything like that. Really? And so, I mean like deep rooted racism. Wow. But I've heard that they've tried to backtrack on that. Is that real?

Is it more just opinion out there? I mean, you can try and backtrack, but you could be like me that learned that when I was, you know, primary age and learning everything like my ABCs. And once you tell me that, like that's deeply rooted. That's rooted.

That's what you think that God's going to do as a punishment. How did you unlearn it? How did you unlearn it?

Was it a process? The Lord. Guys, I had to trust the Holy Spirit. And I know that is wild to say, especially as a Christian, but I did not, I was told not to trust the Bible for so many years. And so I had to listen to what he was saying to me and unpacking that daily. And I did not, my missing piece that really, for me, it was picking up and reading the Bible for myself. And that's why it's so important as parents, as leaders, to be in the Word of God daily. So things like deceptive, things like this that is going on next door don't happen and your children know the truth and they're able to speak that to them.

So that unlearning process is really interesting. And we've talked about this before, because you were second generation Mormon, your parents first generation. And Dr. Shaw, you know, the case with your dad coming from Islam, I mean, he came from a history of Islam, but that would make him first generation Christian.

So what role does that play? I mean, Dr. Shaw, you share about this and Victoria, you speak to it as well. What role does that play being second generation in a religion that you're trying to get out of versus, you know, if you've been in it for generations?

Right. For me, see, Victoria's testimony is different than mine. She was still in Mormonism as 12. Was that the age that you were? For me, I grew up in a Christian home. My dad was already born again, saved, had gone to seminary, come to this church as a pastor, met my mom and married her. And then, you know, years down, I was born. So I did not have any such contact.

Like, like going inside a mosque, I've seen inside the mosque, I haven't like gone inside one. So, you know, how, how, so it's different. So I am far more rooted in my, in my understanding as a Christian than my dad was. Cause he had that, I wouldn't say he was not rooted, but he had the other experience, which I didn't have. Right. Yeah. So I wouldn't say rooted. I would say more like I didn't have that experience.

Right. So being, being second generation Christian, but for your dad, it would, it was a very different experience having grown up in Islam and then converting to Christianity. But for Victoria, second generation is, it's very real because it's not just me, like born and raised in a Christian home. Hers was actually... My children get to be that, but that was not me. Just the relationship part.

I think knowing who Jesus is and how much he loves us and how patient he is with us. I fought it and I was lukewarm, like after salvation for a long time. It was like six years. And I just, I knew that this was true, but I'm trying to unpack these things and I would hear his voice saying, you know, it's okay, like you're forgiven.

And I just didn't understand that. Like I'm forgiven, but I'm messing up. I'm not good enough. I'm not doing, you know, what the right thing.

I feel like I'm always failing. And then I would hear his constant voice of just, it's okay. I love you. You're forgiven. And it had, he was like teaching me to trust him, to teach him.

And they have to rely on that. And then when I started actually reading the Bible, my friend was so kind to me and she was like, okay, you're saved, but like, have you read the Bible today? And I'm like, nah, I've read the, like, you know, Bible verse. And she's like, no, like get in the word. And so now I get that whole piece of, I hear him even louder and I understand, but it takes time.

It takes time. Yeah. We're gonna talk about sin, another major doctrine. We believe human beings have chosen to sin against God, rejecting his nature, pursuing life opposed to his character and reveal law. So how do Mormons take sin? So sin is something that you know, repent for it. And they take communion every Sunday, like clockwork. So you tell a Bishop and then you also take communion. You're forgiven every Sunday instead of just indefinitely. And I love that just coming and bringing my kids on the first thing they learned is I'm a sinner. Like that's the one basic thing, but is just, I'm a sinner and that I need a savior.

And I'm like, we're all of sin. They just try and make it where, okay, well, it's just fixed because you do this thing or you, you just do this ritual or you do, you know, ask for forgiveness or you tell somebody about it. And then that's how you repent. And that's when you're forgiven, but you have to do those things instead of, you know, Hey Lord, I'm so sorry. I picked up the plow and started doing my own thing again. Can you forgive me?

Which is my normal thing today and every day. So that's how that workspace comes back in that you're forgiven because of what you are doing versus where we would say you're forgiven because of what Jesus has done for you. Some of the things that we've talked about, I don't know if we've talked about on the show, but like some of the things, the restrictions that the Mormons will put on their people, like you're not allowed to drink coffee. Is that a sin or is that just, Hey, you really shouldn't be having caffeine. I believe it's the word of wisdom. And I know there's going to be some Mormons that hear this and they're like, that's not right. That's not right. I'm still so far away from it. Praise the Lord.

But this is just like the pieces that I remember, but no, you just couldn't. And that tea and sweet tea, like no sweet tea in the South. I was born here. I need sweet tea. That is tough. Yeah. For salvation, historic salvation, biblical Christianity is released from the guilt and the power of sin through Jesus, through the God's gift of grace. It is provided through Jesus Christ's atonement, right?

He became my substitute. He took God's wrath upon himself and we received that by personal faith in him, right? He's savior and Lord. So in Mormonism, salvation would be saved. It's the atonement of Jesus.

And then plus, you know, there's always the plus, plus this, this and this and this. Is it, is it true that every person, so Jesus' atonement, it provides, everybody's immortal. Everybody's coming back, but only Mormons can ascend to godhood. Or could we all be gods? Or maybe if you guys don't know, if you guys not actually in the afterlife taken Mormons, or if like taught the gospel after you die, which is wild, because like we get one chance here, which makes us live our lives as Christians differently. We should, and we should know that. But because they get a second chance to learn the gospel, there's that and then their option too.

So it's kind of intertwined. And we, and we become gods according to Mormons. I'm good. Of our own planet.

I'm good. I know that's like the original lie. And so I keep saying that and I'm like, Hey, that's a good point. That's the original lie. That's a great point.

I didn't even, I wasn't even thinking about that until you just said that. And then life after death, according to historic biblical Christianity, eternal life in heaven with God, for those who have received Christ as savior and Lord, or eternal separation from God in a place called hell, a real place of burning and fire forever and ever. So Mormonism. It is real. Like when you think of that, like there's heaven and hell and you have a choice.

It's Jesus. And that, that should light a fire under all of us to share that. But when you give this option to have a second, you know, opportunity to, to have the gospel taught to you and that you can do a ritual, ritual to save your sib, you know, your sibling or your you know, ancestor from hell, like then, you know. Yeah. Why wouldn't you?

These levels of celestial, terrestrial, telestial. I think they go over feelings, feelings over like truth. Because they want you.

Which I'm trying to unpack every single day. The more emotional and more genuine it seems. Like what is my feelings versus the word of God is the truth. Like my emotions can't be fake. It's the Holy Spirit. So the message can't be fake.

It's the Holy Spirit. And I'm like, my emotions are wrong a lot. And I'm not against emotions. I'm not against crying. So we're not, we're not saying that, but.

You have to check them. Yeah. But what exactly do they cry about? I mean, just how hard their life is and they're pulling up in their Mercedes and you know, it's like, oh, okay, well, yeah.

I think that was a lot of it. And I think one of my last Sundays, one of our last Sundays, my mom was like, I'm just, I'm done. Like I'm done. She like stormed out.

I'm done. Because she got up there after fast and testimony meeting and said how thankful she was for her new Mercedes. She said it on the pulpit and I'm just like one of the moms that was like, yeah, that's incredible. And it's also about people sharing their testimony and what God's working in their life. Like that's for sure. But it's not your physical things, right? It's how he's changing and molding us.

Yeah. That's awesome. Maybe we're, we're out of time, but in the last couple of seconds that we have, Victoria and then Dr. Shaw, what advice would you give to someone who has a loved one in their life who's in Mormonism, who is, who's actively attending or who's maybe in that process of questioning? What advice would you give to our listeners in order to reach that person? It's going back and I know I've repeated this so many times, it's just going back to Jesus Christ and how much he loves them because they do not feel they, they feel like they're earning their salvation and that's already done in him and it's so diminished and so watered down, but just show them love, show them compassion. They are your neighbors.

They are out there. They are your family and just continue to pray as I'm talking about emotional life. Just continue to pray because God is working.

They have pieces of it. There is glimpse of the gospel they're just been lied to and it's a comfort, but there is power in prayer and I believe that in the end it's in his hands and his will will be done. I would add to that as perfect, by the way, what she said, um, educate yourself, a show like this, you know, listen to these four episodes with Victoria, spread them, share them with people because they need to hear this because this, this was so, I mean only God could have done this. The testimony part was so real and genuine and then now the theology, the doctrine, as we talked about in these past two days, please spread the word and help them know.

Be in the Bible, know it for yourself because Satan, like the things that you might question, go to somebody that is, that, that has more knowledge than you so they can, you can ask those questions. That's right. Amen.

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