What Are These Counter-Missionaries Afraid Of?

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So why is it that some counter-missionary organizations have to rely on sensationalism and even lies? It's time for The Line of Fire with your host, biblical scholar and cultural commentator, Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice for moral sanity and spiritual clarity. Call 866-34-TRUTH to get on The Line of Fire. And now, here's your host, Dr. Michael Brown. It is Thirdly Jewish Thursday. Welcome, friends, to The Line of Fire.

Michael Brown, delighted to be with you. Here's the number to call with any Jewish-related question of any kind. It can be about the modern state of Israel. It can be about rabbinic literature. It can be about the Hebrew Bible. It can be about messianic prophecy, as long as it's Jewish-related dealing with anti-Semitic issues – 866-348-7884.

That is the number to call as we broadcast again from our Dallas studio at Christ for the nations. We will talk a little bit about the war in Ukraine once again, heavy on all of our hearts when you have this human suffering right in front of your eyes and you think of the unimaginable hell that people are living through, and all for what? On every level, it seems to be unnecessary and unprovoked. We will talk about that as it intersects with Israel and the Jewish people.

But I want to focus on a different area first, and that of countermissionary misrepresentation and lies. I have interacted with rabbis for years who are men of integrity, who seek to be honest, who seek to be careful in what they communicate. Obviously, we have very deep and profound differences. Some of them are known as countermissionary rabbis, and I am not speaking about them. I'm not speaking in generalized terms, but in specific terms about others that we have called out and exposed before, like Rabbi Tovia Singer or some others that we'll mention today.

I fully get it. I totally get it as a Jewish believer in Jesus, as one who has written extensively on the history of anti-Semitism in the church, as one who understands the perception, especially in traditional Jewish circles, that Christians or Christianity is directly responsible for the Holocaust. I understand the mentality that even says Hitler wanted our bodies, but you want our souls. I understand how deeply there can be a rejection of Jesus, at least as he's understood by these traditional Jews. I fully get it that someone like me, I'm looked at as an apostate of the worst kind. They would say I'm a tinok shenishbe, a child that was born in captivity, meaning I didn't grow up in a traditional Jewish home, therefore I was more easily picked off.

I didn't have the right upbringing. That's their perception. So I'm not as culpable as someone that was a traditional Jew that then became a follower of Yeshua.

So I get it. I understand the opposition, I understand the hatred, I understand the concern, I understand the fear. What I'm drawing attention to is when counter-missionary organizations and people like Rabbi Singer will bring these exaggerated and ridiculous charges that then, oh, these evil missionaries, oh, what are they trying to do next? For example, when God TV was going to be broadcasting on Israeli cable channels, this was going to be the first ever Hebrew gospel station within Israel, TV network within Israel. Sid Roth owns Middle East TV, which broadcasts on cable in Israel, and there's content in English with Hebrew subtitles and things like this. This was going to be fully in Hebrew, and Israelis reaching Israelis from within Israel is going to be a first. And Ward Simpson, one of my dear colleagues, made an announcement that we're going to reach everyone in Israel. We want to reach all X number of millions in Israel. Now, he was not thinking as he said that, well, wait a second, a certain amount are underage here, because they weren't targeting kids.

None of the programming is targeting kids. None of the programming that was on the station is now on Shalano TV on the internet, because under government pressure and pressure from counter missionaries, that station had to drop the contract that they had with God TV. And Ward felt, hey, we love Israel. We don't want to start a fight, make Israel look bad, so we'll just back off and we'll go digital only, which they've done, and it's reaching Israelis, thank God. But Rabbi Singer posted, look, they're going after children, because he said all the people, he was told in Genesis, we want to reach everybody in Israel.

Men, women, we want to reach Arab, Jew, we want to reach everybody we can reach in Israel. He wasn't talking about kids, and there's no children's programming on it. And Israeli believers in the land know full well that you're not allowed to proselytize a minor.

If you want to invite a minor to a youth event, you get that minor to get parental position, permission. Otherwise, they don't come. All right, so that's fully understood, fully understood. Rabbi Singer makes it like, they're coming for your children.

And then what do you hear? They target the elderly, they target the Holocaust survivors, which of course is 100% false. We reach out to whoever we can reach out to, and we don't ignore an elderly person. We don't ignore a Holocaust survivor. Oh, because you're a Holocaust survivor and you're an atheist now, but because you're a Holocaust survivor, we shouldn't share the good news with you.

What? Well, because you're elderly and there's no one to visit you or help you with your budget and food, we should ignore you and let you suffer. No, we'll reach everyone. But the idea we target the elderly, target Holocaust survivors, it's complete nonsense.

This is the world I live in. I know all the major Jewish outreach organizations, virtually all of them around the world. I work with many of them closely.

Nobody is, we're going to target the elderly, target the vulnerable, target the children. So now you have these stories as Ukrainian Jews are fleeing Ukraine. So there are ministries that I work with and the whole thing they do is humanitarian help. That's the whole thing they do. They help in the humanitarian way. They raise funds to help needy Jews in the land and other needy, could be Arab Christians in the land. They do their best to reach out and help, and that's what they do. If people want to find out more about Yeshua, great, we'll tell you, but we're just going to meet your needs and be there to love on you.

Why? Because that's what believers do. Come on, Christians around the world lead the way in humanitarian work, where there's a crisis, a tsunami, the aftermath of that or some terrible earthquake, who the first ones there with relief and help Christians, because that's what we do. And Jesus put a high priority in caring for the needy. And there are organizations that do that and evangelize as well. Hey, we're followers of Jesus, we're Jews who love Jesus and we're here to help you. And so that's what they do with Ukrainian Jews, too.

What? They're going to ignore them? They're going to let them suffer if they have the ability to help?

Of course not. So let me show you how this now gets reported in the Jewish world. This is an article on World Israel News from March 7th. Aggressive Missionary Group targets Ukrainian Jews in Israel, already baptizing 15. Where this 15 number came from, I don't know, I talked to the head of the organization.

He's not sure either. The head of Chosen People Ministries. So here's the article. Chosen People Ministries warmly welcomes refugees, already plans to baptize 15 arrivals before Passover while assisting them with their physical needs. First thing, we are followers of Yeshua. We help everybody. You have a humanitarian crisis.

You have people coming from around the world, all right? And they are in need. They come to Israel. You have a ministry based in Israel that says, hey, we love you. We want to help you.

We're Jewish followers of Jesus. They're not supposed to help. It's wrong to help. Or they're praying on the, they're not praying on the refugees. They're helping refugees like they help others, like they help others in need across the border. Across all working classes and zones and things like that. And on top of that, most of the people that you're reaching are just fellow workers, friends, go to a job with someone, fellow student on the campus, your neighbor, just like outreach here.

That's the same way it's done. Chosen People Ministries, New York-based Messianic Jewish nonprofit that openly engages in Christian evangelism to Jews is now targeting Ukrainian refugees fleeing to Israel. Notice the way it's worded. Targeting Ukrainian Jews, refugees. Again, they're not targeting anyone. They're helping people in need, in this case, Ukrainian Jews in need.

They have the resource to help. They're not doing it in some secret way as if we are Orthodox Jews. They're all posing as Orthodox Jews.

They're all dressed as Orthodox Jews. They're trying to trick these refugees and they're targeting them. And then at a certain point, they're going to say, by the way, we're really Christians and we want you to convert and leave your people.

No. They say, hey, we love you, Shua, and we love you, and we love to help you. And as we're helping you, if we can help you spiritually as well, we're happy to do it.

Shouldn't we do that as followers of Messiah? So the way it gets represented here, of course, Rabbi Singer gets quoted. And then a woman that says she was a former evangelical, Shannon Newsom heads up an organization, Beinenu.

She says, we're in a crisis situation. I'm just scrolling down the article. It says targeting minors against the law.

There's the charge again. Nobody. Listen to me. No one doing Jewish evangelism in Israel is targeting minors. Nobody.

The only way minors are being reached is if a kid talks to another kid and then tells them, listen, if you want to come to a meeting with me or whatever, you need to get parental permission. That's how it's been done for years. It's the law.

It's the law. No. We're in a crisis situation, but at the same time, we have an obligation to our Jewish brothers and sisters, Shannon Newsom says, they're fleeing from a very physical, real physical threat, seeking to take their lives, only the land and the holy land, and be greeted at the airport by those seeking to destroy their souls.

The work of chosen people ministry is clearly crossing lines on both of these fronts. Okay. So that's, that's the first article. Then I see this next article and let's see, this is also March 7th and this is in the Yeshiva world. So this is an Orthodox Jewish publication. I'm going to get to your calls right after the break here.

I'm going to come back, go straight to your calls, just looking at my screen and we've got some great questions already. So look at this headline now and, and this is from the Yeshiva world, Orthodox Jewish online publication, troubling missionaries planning mass conversions for Jews fleeing Ukraine. Now, what would you think if you read that, these terrible missionaries and they're trying to convert these, these Ukrainian refugees, they're leaving everything. They were being bombed. They're terrified. Now they're coming here and these evil missionaries are greeting them at the airport trying to mass conversion. Why the sensationalism?

It's not what's happening. I know chosen people. Mitch Glaser is a dear friend.

We've worked together closely for years. There's no special mass conversion plan and, and no one's even talking about conversion. We're saying as a Jew, remain a Jew, stay a Jew, but put your faith in Yeshua as the Messiah. So you know, you read on in the reports, a Christian missionary group is planning to perform a mass baptism on Jews fleeing Ukraine to Israel. Yad Lachim is one of the worst counter missionary organizations, very nefarious, very diabolical. We'll work behind the scenes to try to get passports revoked or things like that or messianic Jews exposed and even threatened. We pray for God to convert these people to the truth and open their eyes.

Planning mass baptism. Why the sensationalism? Hey, you know who you are. Let's deal with truth. Let's deal with truth. Who needs the exaggerations, the false characterizations and the lies. Let's deal with truth. We'll be right back. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Set on the line of fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Yes, yes, yes. It is thoroughly Jewish Thursday. Michael Brown, delighted to be with you.

Here's the number to call with your Jewish related questions, 866-348-7884. I've interacted for many, many years with Rabbi Yisrael Blumenthal. We have very, very deep differences. If you published everything we've written back and forth to each other, it would probably be several thousand pages. I do not put him in this class of sensationalism and misrepresentation.

The same with Rabbi Moshe Shulman, another counter missionary rabbi. We've interacted for many years. If you published everything we've written back and forth to each other, it would be I'm sure many hundreds of pages.

And I do not put him in this same class. These men are dealing with texts. These men are dealing with interpretation of texts and laying out their issues where they think that we are in error and I'm doing the same with them, each of us as time permits. There are others I've interacted with that I found to be people of integrity. So I'm not brushing with a broad brush.

I'm not making a broad-breast accusation about counter missionaries in general. I'm singling people out because of the ugly work that's being done. And again, it's one thing to lay out the differences plainly. It's another thing to exaggerate.

It's another thing to sensationalize and then ultimately to lie. And that's when lines are crossed that we will address. All right, let us go to the phones and we'll start with Dennis in Clovis, California. Welcome to the line of fire. Thank you, Dr. Michael. I just, first of all, I want to say I understand that the mischaracterization of what's going on with the Ukrainian Jews, but I just want to go on the record for saying I'm for mass salvations and mass baptisms of Ukrainian Jews nonetheless. Let it be, yeah. For every Jew on the planet, mass salvations recognized in Yeshua's Messiah and massive immersions, let it be for the glory of God. I'm with you. Yes, sir.

Yes, yes, yes, sir. And then I wanted to just point out, yes, I understand that there are a lot of sensationalistic busymongers out there that are saying that Rosh means Russia, and there's no semantic connection. I fully understand that, that Rosh is the Hebrew word for head, and so it's really talking about the Prince of God. But what I want to ask you to consider, if you haven't already, and you probably have, but the book of Jubilees 8, chapter 8, verse 25 to 30 mentions that the region of Gog is the land that came forth for Japheth, and we know that Japheth is that northern area.

As you've mentioned, up there in northern Turkey. But when we see Josephus in Antiquities of the Jews, 6.1, it says that Magog is Scythia, and we just go to Wiki and you look up Scythia and you see that it is just southern Russia and Ukraine. So here's the point. Here's the point.

The devil's in the details. When it comes to prophecy, we need to shout where the Bible shouts and whisper where the Bible whispers. And when it comes to the minutia of Bible prophecy, we shouldn't be connecting all these dots and coming up with these fantastic scenarios.

But you know, it was decades ago when the USSR dissolved, when a lot of people, a lot of non-millennialists, I'm a historical premillennialist like you, a post-Trib, that they would say, oh, look, Russia is no longer on the scene, they were all wrong. Well, what I want to point out is that it appears that this northern king, which could be coming from Mesopotamia, from the Fertile Crescent, I understand that, we do see that northern enemy being threatened throughout scripture, starting in Numbers 24 with the prophecy of Balaam and Micah 5 to Daniel 11, there's a northern enemy of the Jews, of Israel, and we see that in Ezekiel 38 and 39. But what I want to say is that in light of current geopolitical dynamics between Russia and Iran and Libya and these other entities that are mentioned, it seems very likely that Russia will play a role, coming from the north and coming down against Israel there, and that there's nothing all that fantastic about seeing this potential fulfillment there in Ezekiel 38 and 39.

Yeah, actually, I have not looked at the evidence in Jubilees before, I may have seen it in passing, but to be honest, I hadn't looked in that. And as far as the Scythians and their location, or southern Siberia, et cetera, of course it's a people that no longer exists as a people. But the larger thesis you're mentioning, discarding the Rosh part, that that's Russia, that if it is speaking of an enemy coming from the north, that the most logical candidate for many years now would be Russia.

Yeah, could well be. And one reason that Israel has to walk very carefully in terms of negotiating with Russia and Ukraine, not only is there the issue of Jews in Russia, and say if Israel gets directly involved with Ukraine supplying weapons and now Ukraine is using Israeli weapons to attack Russia, what happens to the Jews in Russia? But Russia largely controls Syrian airspace, so that's why Israel has to be careful. The potential alliance between Russia and Iran, right now we'll see where it goes, but that's been a closer alliance, for example, as opposed to America and Iran. Russia and Iran have been partners in crime in certain ways regarding the Middle East. So yeah, it makes good logical sense that Russia could be a major player in a final war against Israel, or that Russia could be a major player, not because of the Rosh part, as you say, but because of larger things of an enemy coming from the north in Ezekiel 38, 39. Could well be.

I appreciate that. Yeah, there's nothing in me that says it can't be. My issue is every time Russia does something, don't start pointing to Ezekiel 38, 39, oh, this must be it, oh, this is the fulfillment, oh, or Russia is specifically mentioned. Russia is definitely not specifically mentioned, but could Russia be included in a major way in those passages? Yeah, certainly. There's nothing to say that's not the case. And for many years, I think back to the 1800s, when there were, late 1800s, when there were dispensational commentators saying that Russia's going to play a major role in the end, and you had them say, Russia, poor Russia, why do you think Russia's, because they just were not the superpower then that they are now.

Yeah, so the way you came at it, even putting aside Scythians and other things, just the larger question of an enemy coming from the north, and could it be literally from the north, and could it be Russia, yeah, it'd make perfect sense that it could fit. We just can't be dogmatic about it. As you say, shout what the Bible shouts, whisper what it whispers. When it comes to things about the future in this way, we have to walk carefully. And I did an interview yesterday for Washington Post about these very things, ah, this is the end of the world. I said, come on, we've been there for decades and decades, and Jesus coming any moment, and here's the latest sign. So the angle from which you're approaching it, certainly a good possibility. The angle of- Let me ask you this- Yeah, go ahead, go ahead.

No, really good, I appreciate your comments. With regards to NATO and Europe, the armament of Germany, pacifist Germany, and being the main aggressor in World War II and all of that, do you not also see, again, just setting the stage, not that this is it, not that this is the battle Armageddon, but it's setting the stage for a restored European power, that we read about that fourth power in the book of Daniel chapter 7 there, and that there's a revived Roman power there that's setting the stage as well for the fulfillment of end-time prophecy? It's- Dennis, it's possible, but here's where I have to have caution. It wasn't that long ago that I remember hearing about you had 10 European nations, and these were the 10 kings, and this was all prophesied, and of course the number changes, and that doesn't work. And then during World War II, the prophecy experts had it figured out.

You had the renewed Roman Empire under Mussolini, and then you had Hitler, who was like the false prophet, along with Mussolini, who was the Antichrist. People had it all worked out, and of course it didn't happen. So that's the big concern.

And again, when you step back, even and look at interpretations of Ezekiel 38 and 39, Professor Alicia Jackson sent me this a few days ago, that she's written on this in academic circles about holiness, Pentecostal interpretations of Ezekiel 38 and 39, and how it shifted from one mentality and suddenly everything was fulfillment of prophecy and news headlines. So to me, many lines would have to be crossed that have not yet been crossed in terms of absolute clarity, that this is that. And then the world stage would have to be set in a way that's nowhere near being set. Could things escalate overnight?

That could happen. But right now, the last thing on my mind is the end of the world. The first thing on my mind is the Great Commission today and the crisis in Ukraine today and human need.

And I'm not saying you disagree with any of that. Hey, thank you for the call and raising these points. Very much appreciated, sir.

866-342. By the way, Fridays are always the toughest days to get through. Sometimes get through meaning get your calls in because normally the phone lines are lit up from beginning to end.

Thursdays can be like that. And some days we have some open phone lines. So we actually have a few open phone lines right now. If you call in now, I can almost guarantee that we'll get your call before we're done. Sometimes this is a great time to call 866-348-7884. Let's go to Adam in Montreal, Canada.

Welcome to the line of fire. Hey, Dr. Brown, how are you doing today? Doing good. Hey, can I ask you a quick generic Canada question? Sure. Okay.

It's not Jewish related. It's a larger question. In America now, conservatives are looking at Trudeau as a dictator, looking ahead and turning Canada into Cuba overnight.

That's the way it's commonly said. Very much sympathetic to the freedom convoy and very much pushing against what we feel are really overreactions to COVID and things like that. But we know that when elections came, Trudeau was reelected. And we know there's a lot of division in the government.

Is there a general climate in Canada that is pro-Trudeau, anti-Trudeau, or saying things have to change dramatically, or is that conservative to see it one way, liberals see it another way? That's a great question. So in one sense, regarding the election, I apologize, I did not have my eye on the clock.

That was not a setup. We come back. We'll go straight to your comment about Canada and straight to your question, and then we'll take some more calls. We'll be right here. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get on the line of fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Welcome friends to our Thoroughly Jewish Thursday broadcast. If you have a Jewish-related question of any kind, if you differ with me on something as a Jewish person, give me a call 866-348-7884. I want to go to Adam in Canada, first to get a perspective of how your average Canadian man, a woman on the street, views the current government and the current restrictions. Prime Minister Trudeau stepped back from the Emergency Powers Act when he realized he was not going to get through both houses of Congress there or Parliament there. But yeah, just curious, Adam, to get your perspective, then I want to get to your Hebrew question.

Sure. So what happens is that where I live, it's also very provincial. So for instance, if you go to Alberta, where it's a province that are really rich in the oil industry, Trudeau has the mission to go net-zero emissions and all that, so they're really leaning towards conservative. But in my province, I live in Quebec, so Quebec is basically Trudeau's, I would say probably his strongest province because of his origin. And also there are many people here that don't speak English and the only news they get would be from the French networks that tend to support him. But you can see that people are generally pretty tired of the COVID restrictions.

Even while the Ottawa event was going on, there were protests in different provinces, including here in Quebec, which again is one of Trudeau's, Prime Minister Trudeau's like strongest provinces, and even here they're beginning to loosen restrictions now because of the pressure that people have began putting on the government. Got it. All right. I appreciate that perspective. Obviously, you're setting things up as best as you can, which I really do appreciate it.

Okay, over to your question. Yeah, so lately I've been studying Genesis chapter 11 on the Tower of Babel, which I find to be one of the most fascinating chapters personally, especially I love Bible prophecy. But the question that's related to Jewish Thursday is, you know, Babel, I see the word Babel as being like confusion, right? And just a thought came into my mind, I don't know if this is accurate or not, but is there any connection between the word Babel and also Baal, the pagan god, because we know Baal also, like if you look at like his worship and practices, there was a lot of confusion that was also involved there. And the words Baal and Babel kind of sound similar. I was just wondering, you know, for you who understands the Hebrew and all that, is there any connection between the two?

No, I appreciate the question, but there's no connection. Baal in Hebrew has three letters Beit, Ayin, Lamed, and Babel three letters Beit, Beit, Lamed. And the word for confuse is three letters Beit, Lamed, Lamed. So B-L-L in the last and B-B-L for the second one and the first one I mentioned is B and then an Ayin, an L. So it's distinct different consonants and there would be no connection if you heard them both spoken in Hebrew.

You wouldn't connect them, you wouldn't relate them, but they're absolutely from different roots and there's no specific connection between those roots. And Baal has to do with ownership, being a master, being lord, possession, and Baal has to do with confusion. Now the B-V-L, Babel, and then from there we get the idea of, you know, something just being Babel and confusing, but the Hebrew word B-V-L is related to the Akkadian, which is ancient Assyrian Babylonian, B-E-L-U, gate of the gods. So that's a distinct different name and it's the Hebrew just to play on words. The biblical authors will sometimes do this, have a play on words.

Like I always use an example. They call me Mike because I'm always talking behind a mic, right? So there's microphone and Michael, two different words. Everyone knows it's a play on words, so it says in Hebrew it was called B-V-L because their God, B-L-L-D, mixing Hebrew and English, he B-L-L-D the languages. So there he confused the language. So it's saying B-V-L rhymes with B-L-L, play on words. But the origin of B-V-L actually, as I said, is gate of the gods. And we know that even in Hebrew or Aramaic B-V-L would be gate of God. So no connection between Baal and Babel or the word for confusion. And then even there in Genesis 11, there's a play on words in the original. And it's bringing out, again, God confusing the tongues and that word resembles the word for B-V-L, Babel. So that's what's happening there. Hey, thank you for the call. You know, there was a time when I didn't understand the place on words and the mentality of the biblical authors. And I thought, no, I have to defend that B-V-L is somehow related to B-L-L. No, no, it's an obvious play on words, just like they call him Frank because he's always very frank.

Just same thing as that. Okay, we've got an anonymous caller in Seattle, Washington. Thanks for calling the line of fire. Greetings in the Lord, Dr. Brown.

Thank you. Well, I'm sure you've gotten this question a lot of times, and I was praying as I was waiting just that this question itself doesn't cause an offense to anyone's faith, because we all have to wrestle with the difficult parts of the Scriptures and submit to it. And we know that in the end, that God will do what's righteous and just, even if we don't understand it in our faulty justice sense.

But it's Numbers 31, 17. Now this is the part that I struggle with a bit right now, maybe if you could shine some light. Now, therefore, kill every male among the little ones. And I was just wondering, because, I mean, if they're babies and stuff, I mean, here's where I kind of struggle with it, because I do ministry at the abortion clinics, try to save lives and reach out to the women and the men that are there. And one of the arguments they will say is, you know, if it's an unwanted child, it's going to have a miserable life, and nobody's going to want it, you know, they're set up for failure, they're going to be born into poverty, nonsense arguments like that. But some of the commentary, a few of the commentaries I read, kind of said something that sounded similar to that, that these children were killed because they would have miserable lives, they would grow up in horrible circumstances, and so it was merciful to kill them. Just wondering if you could shine some light on that. Yeah, it's a legitimate question that people ask, and it's a fair question.

And the Hebrew here for children is toth, which is a little child. So in fact, Nancy and I were just talking about this, we look at, say, Russia, and here's a report of them bombing a maternity ward. And here you've got, or they're bombing a line of refugees, and what's the ultimate outrage that innocent women and children are killed, right? Or could you picture any soldiers today, the most righteous soldiers on the planet, going through an area and killing little children?

Obviously not. We're all appalled by it. So some would point to this and say, okay, this points to the low morals of the Bible or demonstrates that Yahweh really is a murderer. And again, it's a fair question to ask, especially if you try to go back in those times and think of this actually happening, or watching a movie that shows it actually happening. We know the abortion argument, obviously, is there are plenty of people ready to adopt that baby and longing to be able to adopt a baby and would care for that child. And then in many cases, once the child's born, someone that did want to have it will want to have it.

But even putting that aside, because you have those answers, as you said, those are weak objections. Oh, and so many people that have grown up in poverty have shined like stars and been a huge blessing to the world. Exactly. Exactly.

And I appreciate your pro-life work. So let me just say a few things here. There are a couple of places in the Bible where this was the instruction. Here in Numbers 31, the conquering of Canaan, and then in 1 Samuel 15 with the Amalekites. Otherwise this is never commanded in Scripture.

I just want to start there. I'm going to answer it head on, but it's never commanded elsewhere. Secondly, throughout the Bible, God is revealed as caring for the orphan, caring for the needy, and will judge other nations because of their sins against pregnant women and children and things like that. And then the ultimate expression of the character of God is in the cross.

So we see all that. How do we reconcile it? You have scholars like Greg Boyd, Pastor Greg Boyd, Dr. Boyd, who would say that this was not really God speaking. This was Moses. This was a kind of a lower revelation. I'm not doing justice to his position, but that if you want to see who God is, you look at the cross and anything that's substandard has another explanation. I understand it like this.

It is the rarest of rare commands. In the case of the killing of the Canaanites, according to Genesis 15, God waited four hundred years. It's longer than America's been a country. Four hundred years until he said, go ahead and wipe them out. Even though Israel suffered in slavery in Egypt, it wasn't ripe yet. The sin had not grown to a high enough level to justify this. Some believe, Dr. Michael Heiser and others, that these people were half-breeds, that these were offspring of the Nephilim, say with the Canaanites, and that they were part-human and part-angelic, and it was a cursed race that had to be wiped out and destroyed.

Now, for your average non-believing person, that sounds pretty weird, but if they watched X-Files in years past, maybe they're more sympathetic to these unusual paranormal kind of things. That's one thing, that they were to be wiped out. You say, well, you can't really apply here because you could marry the women.

Okay, so let's put that account over there and look at this. The other possibility that could make sense to me is that there are studies now that indicate that character can also be passed on through DNA, that there is a literal bad seed. In other words, this person is born with a propensity to do certain evil things.

And in this case, it was very, very extreme. And if you allowed this to live in your midst, soon enough, the cancer would spread. Soon enough, Israel would be falling away. Soon enough, God would have to destroy Israel, which means no savior coming into the world.

So it was an extreme measure, like amputating a leg with gangrene. But it doesn't end there, because if my theology is right, because these children had not actually acted out their evil, Deuteronomy 139 says the children don't know the difference between good and bad. They haven't come to that point of maturity, that even though they are killed in this world, they will live forever with the Lord in the world to come. That there's still eternal mercy. So that is the only way I can understand it, that there had to be a legitimate reason for killing these children. And it was a form of divine judgment, lest they grow up and bring out the destruction.

But still, in the providence and mercy of God, they would live forever with him in the world to come. That's as honest an answer as I can give you in wrestling with this text. I'll comment more on the other side of the break. Thank you for calling. It's The Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get on The Line of Fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Yeah, that's the sweet transition the team has down at the studio. I love it. Going from Skillet to Thoroughly Jewish Thursday, music, got it down to a science, 866-34-87-884. You know, it's interesting that for many, many years, people would read the Bible and not notice certain things and not be troubled by certain things or just, hey, we know God is good and these were bad people. And then it's almost like something happens and it gets brought to the surface and you have to think about it and you have to answer it and you have to address it.

Let me throw something out to you. There are many reasons, many different reasons why people are turning away from the faith, many different reasons why people are, quote, deconstructing. And one is that objections to the authenticity of Scripture, the reliability of Scripture, the inspiration of Scripture, objections that were discussed at an academic level for decades, for centuries, are now trickling down to your average person. And because they have not been equipped to answer these or have the academic process to work these things through, it's just not their background. I don't mean they're not smart, it's just not their background, it's been very troubling to many here.

You can be at a seminary and you are doing your PhD work in New Testament, textual criticism, determining the most accurate reading of the verses of the New Testament. And you know all the variants inside out, you know the arguments for this textual tradition over that. You're just used to it, right?

And it doesn't faze you at all. In fact, you think, wow, God's left us with so many treasures of manuscripts, it's incredible. It's the best detested book in the ancient world.

It's amazing. Or you could be going into a college class with Professor Bart Ehrman at the University of North Carolina, I guess in Raleigh. You could be going into his New Testament intro class, and he starts throwing these things out. And you're brand new. You've been saved three years, you're raised in the faith, but just never dealt with these issues. And you get hit with this, like, what?

Oh, no. And he knows so much, he's brilliant, and so on. So what's happening now is that same effect on large numbers of people. I did a debate with Dr. Ehrman, what, 10 years ago or so on, does the Bible provide an adequate answer to the problem of suffering? And we had some good time talking before and after the debate. And you know, when he wrote his first book that became a bestseller, and Problems in the Gospels and Problems in the Sayings of Jesus, he was not expecting it to be a national bestseller. He's known as a New Testament scholar, New Testament textual critic, and scholar in some of the books of the Bible, why certain things were included, why others excluded for New Testament texts. He writes his book, becomes a bestseller, and now stuff that we've dealt with for decades, for centuries, that I had to work through when I was in college and grad school, that apologists have worked through. We have our answers. You may like the answers or not, but it's all been answered, all this stuff's been responded to.

We're working out to the masses. And it seems that the world, critics, skeptics, non-believers, people who once believed and don't, are challenging us with texts like Numbers 31. It's a fair challenge.

It's a perfectly fair question to ask. Now, Reverend John Piper, Pastor Piper, has answered it simply by saying, God has the right to kill whomever he wants to kill, because here he's God, and we're guilty sinners. That everyone lives by mercy, that a baby lives by mercy, that the only reason we have breath in our nostrils is because of the grace of God, and it's all unmerited. And if God says, death sentence for this one or that one, so be it. I appreciate his perspective and his answer, but I would still say, okay, when it is a child who has not acted out on any of these things in a woeful way of understanding the difference between right and wrong, they're three months old. Is there a legitimate reason to kill that child?

So that's the bigger issue. But when I wrote the book, Has God Failed You?, if you don't have it, let me encourage you to pick it up. Has God failed you? Finding faith in you, not even sure God is real. I address these questions right there, because we need to address them honestly. And there is something to this. Also my book, Compassionate Father, Consuming Fire, Who's the God of the Old Testament, in a new edition.

That deals with some of these very issues well, and I trust that as you look at it, it will help you. But remember, remember, there is an overall revelation of God throughout scripture, of compassion, mercy, of standing for the orphans, for the innocent, of standing for babies in the womb and outside the womb. And the ultimate revelation of who he is is that he sends his son to die for us on the cross to take our place.

That's massive. That's ultimately who he is. If you want to get the clearest picture you can of God, look at Jesus. That's how it breaks down.

Yes, there will be judgment for the wicked, and yes, there are some things we may not fully understand, but we have every reason to trust the goodness of God and his character. 866, three-fourth truth, let's go to Charlie in Dallas, Texas, probably pretty near where I am. Welcome to the line of fire. Are you there, Charlie? I don't know what happened to Charlie, but the question I see posted, did Moses lead a mixed multitude out of Egypt?

Yes, yes. The bulk of the people, the mass of great bulk of the people were the people of Israel. But there are also many others that came along with them. And of course, that was part of the rabble, part of the trouble, part of the difficulty, part of the grumbling. So it is the children of Israel and mass, plus a bunch of other people, and that's the minority that came out with him. So that's the short answer. If there's more to it, maybe you'll be able to reconnect and explain the question there. It's very interesting in Ukraine that there is a city called Uman.

In that city, Rabbi Nachman of Breslov settled and is ultimately buried there. So this goes back a couple hundred years. Let me just see here. Let me type this in. I don't have it in my head when he died, but he only lived to be, I think, 37. Date?

Let's just try to type in. There we go. Rabbi Nachman, and maybe I'll see his death and give you the exact date for it. So when does he die?

1810. Yeah, born in 1772, dies 1810, so he's 38 years old. He was a mystical rabbi, a Hasidic rabbi. He had a very devoted following, and that following has continued to this day. So they still follow his teachings.

There is still a major movement in Israel of his followers. And once a year, they will go to Ukraine to his grave site in memory of his death. And I was flying back from India once, and if I'm correct, we were flying through Shipol Airport in the Netherlands. So we stopped there in Amsterdam, and then we get on the next flight coming back to the States, and there are all these ultra-orthodox Jews. In fact, I was sitting next to one of them for a good part of the flight.

And I asked them where they were coming from. Well, they had flown in from Ukraine, because they were there at the grave site of Rabbi Nachman. So right now, from what I understand, there are very few Jews living in that city, and people have fled, even though it's not under direct assault as far as I know right now. But there is a connection to Ukraine with many religious Jews that's kind of interesting.

There is a connection because of that history with Rabbi Nachman. And you can see those Hasidic Jews, you'll see them sometimes dancing on the streets and celebrating and singing, and that's part of their experience. There are a few different, maybe two different groups. Some are more devoted than others. Others may be more into the dancing and even smoking pop. You have the very, very devoted ones, very, very religious and living an ultra-orthodox lifestyle. So it would be interesting to see what happens with war going on about making pilgrimage there, whether they do it or not.

Okay, there's a question up on the screen, and I'm going to answer it without taking the call, only because we're virtually out of time. Was homosexuality the primary sin of Sodom and Gomorrah? No. According to Ezekiel, the book of Ezekiel, the 16th chapter, the primary sin was self-satisfying wealth, selfishness, lack of compassion for the poor, lack of hospitality, and they committed toevah and abomination, referring back to Leviticus 18, homosexual practice. A man like another man is a toevah, something detestable. Homosexual practice was the manifestation of the sin of Sodom. The sin of Sodom was not primarily homosexuality or homosexual practice. The manifestation of the sin, the thing that brought to the attention of the angels sent there to see the city, was the degree that this had gotten totally out of control to the point that they wanted to rape these visitors that were there.

It was not just lack of hospitality. There was ugly sexual sin, and Ezekiel speaks of it by saying they committed toevah. That definitely goes back to Leviticus 18, where the same term is used, and Ezekiel's certainly aware of the Sodom and Gomorrah narrative. But that was not the primary sin. That was a manifestation of the sin, and the other things laid the foundation for it.

I'd say similar to America. There are many other sins in our nation, and then part of the sexual revolution that has now come along with the manifestation of homosexual practice, as widespread as it is, and with its aggressive desire to change thinking. That's not the biggest sin in America.

It's a reflection of many other sins that have culminated with that, or at present have culminated with that. All right, friends, we are at a time silencing of the lambs. If you haven't gotten it yet, I really encourage you to. This book will be incredibly eye-opening, and then, not only that, give you strategy after strategy as to how your voice can overcome the silencing.

Remember, it's on sale on Amazon Kindle, I think a few more days at half price. All right, get your questions ready for tomorrow. If we missed you today, give us a call tomorrow. You've got questions, we've got answers right here. See you next time.