Finding Restoration When Love is Gone (Part 2 of 2)

But you should never chase and beg and plead because that just legitimizes what they're doing. Yeah, it is your fault.

You're trying hard. I'm through with you. You've got to actually push back and say, no, you're sinning. Of course we have marriage issues, you'd say, but those can all be fixed.

We both know Jesus, don't we? That's a tough love perspective from Dr. David Clark about how you should respond if your spouse says we're done, it's over. Dr. Clark is back with us today on Focus on the Family and your host is Focus President and author Jim Daly. Thanks for joining us.

I'm John Fuller. John, we shared a powerful conversation last time with Dr. Clark and I'm certain we confronted a lot of husbands and wives in that process because it's easy sometimes to take our relationships for granted. I really appreciate David's no nonsense approach of speaking the truth, God's truth in a culture where a lot of people don't want anyone holding them accountable. But we in the Christian community can't afford to live that way because people outside the faith are watching our marriages and our families to see if what we claim to believe is really true. That's why it's critical that we keep our relationships strong and healthy. And if you're struggling in that regard, get the help you need before your marriage gets to the breaking point. That's why Focus on the Family is here to help strengthen and rescue hurting couples. We have our counseling team and Hope Restored where we provide intensive counseling over several days for those who are ready to give up.

Giving up is not what God wants for your marriage. Contact us today for the help you need to get on a better path. And our number is 800-232-6459. Call to set up an appointment with one of our counselors or ask for information about Hope Restored.

Again, that's 800, the letter A in the word family, or stop by the episode notes for more. And if you missed our conversation last time with Dr. Clark, you can order an audio copy of that when you get in touch. And now here's, Jim, how you began part two of our conversation with Dr. David Clark on Focus on the Family. Your book, What to Do When Your Spouse Says I Don't Love You Anymore, is blunt.

It is really good in that respect. And it's a caution sign. You know, we have those highway signs. I think your book is very much like that for married couples to better understand how to communicate together to prevent the enemy of our soul from taking us down, which is what he's doing and wanting to do each and every day. And it seems right now that we're weak in that area and unwilling to do the hard work that we need to do to make sure that we're more of a testimony, not a, oh yeah, that happens to them too in the Christian church kind of couple. So thanks for that sense last time that we need to work at our marriages and do a better job.

We ended last time I had asked you a question about that woman who feels guilty that maybe her husband has done this and what role did I play in to it? It does raise a question for me in terms of a woman's self-esteem and self-worth. And I know the shoe can be on either foot here, and I don't mean to genderize this, but typically, still today, it's men that have affairs and they're hurt wives.

Not always I get that. But talk about what's going on in a woman's heart, that complex person. We laugh about it. We talk about men from Mars and women from Venus and noodles and spaghetti and waffles and all the different ways we can describe how genders react. But that sensitive heart in a woman, what is going on with her sense of self-worth in this moment when she's no longer being the one that her husband says, you're mine?

It is just beyond devastating. Women are so sensitive in this area. I'm fat. I'm not attractive to you anymore. I'm not attractive to anyone anymore. And I'm not a good housekeeper. And I guess I'm not a good mom. I mean, she goes across the board trying to find out how could this have happened and she thinks it's because of her.

That's not true. Plus, get this, every trauma she's ever experienced in her life at that very moment comes rushing in. So it's even more devastating. My dad neglected me, didn't think I was that pretty and preferred my sister. I had a boyfriend that rejected me.

I had my previous husband who dumped me. Whatever's happened in her life, everything psychologically now with this trauma comes in. So she's got the whole ball of wax. So it's like a breaking of the dam, not just springing a leak.

Oh yeah, this is Hoover Dam just splitting open. He's done that to her with that one sentence. And so she is desperate to somehow, the most natural response is, okay, it is me. That's some control I can have. And I can hold off maybe the other parts of self-esteem. And if I can really win him back by chasing him, all this can go away.

Not true. You're going to make it worse because he's done with you. You could be the best wife on earth the next month and it will make no difference to him because he's through with you. His heart is turned off and he's got someone else shoved in there who doesn't belong there.

So any attempt to win him back is wrong and actually unbiblical and you're not confronting his sin. When that couple has broken their relationship for all these reasons that we're talking about, what is that man going to find in the next relationship? Absolute disaster, misery. Here's the irony. And I will tell these guys this, but they don't get it.

They think it's going to be so much better. And I'll say it will be, buddy, for about four to five months. That's all you're going to get.

Maybe a year at the outside. It's you and her against the world and your kids hate you and you've hurt your wife and you can't go to church. All the way to that's going to crush you and her. And you're going to be separate from God because he will never bless this relationship.

It's out of his nature to do so. You're going to have that major problem. And the guy looks at me like I got three heads. Also, I've talked to a thousand guys just like you and a thousand out of a thousand. That's what happened.

Still don't believe it. So all the books out there, Christian books who talk about being happy and someone rationalizes in this instance with this set of circumstances, infidelity. Hey, you know what? God wants me to be happy. That's a common one.

Oh, it's very. What do you say to that person that says that to you? I get my Bible out, which I keep my eyes on. I'm serious.

Show me in the Bible where God wants you to be happy. They can't show me further. Read me Malachi 2 16. That's as clear as a bell.

Whoa. But I'm trying to get the message across. You're not going to be the exception to sinning and getting away with it.

No one does. And I tried and I'm tough enough that I'm hoping to make the message clear. I'm banging him in the head, but I'm also saying, look, I'm trying to save you, buddy. I want you to believe that save your life. In many ways, you're acting like the Old Testament character of Nathan when he confronts David.

Right. Set that story up for us and talk about why that worked. It was an incredible story. Here's King David, number one man, a man after God's own heart in that kingdom, really could do no wrong and walk with God. He makes this terrible mistake with Bathsheba. And it shows how crazy you can get in an affair and in sexual sin.

You will do things you would never dream of doing. He has Uriah killed to cover his sin. Again, that's covering doing whatever you can. And Nathan took his life in his own hands. He had the guts.

God's looking for people, friends, family members, pastors, counselors to have the guts to stand up and say, you're the man, you're sinning. Nathan did it. And he could have been killed by David instantly for offending the king.

Right. How in my throne, how dare you. But to David's credit, and of course, God's ultimately he was broken. Nathan tells a story of the sheep and all that. Boom, just nailed him and he responded and God restored him. There were consequences. We need more Nathan's.

We need a lot more Nathan's. We got a bunch of wimps out there that won't speak truth. I had a wife the other day in my office. Her husband's having an affair and she can't find anyone, not anybody at her church that will stand up and say, and deal with her husband. I say, that's disgraceful. Well, I'll do it.

And we'll try to find somebody else to do it. She's alone. She needs somebody to support her. So many friends would say to themselves, oh, you know, my friendship means a lot to me. If I say that, I may not have that friendship any longer.

Not that it sounds too simplistic to say it that way, but and we may not even process it that way. But that may go through our minds that is it our role? Is it our responsibility to say to my friend, you seem to be out a lot without your husband?

What's going on? Right. That's a real friend. The Bible talks about a friend that sticks closer than a brother and you speak truth. My best friend, Rocky, speaks truth to me in areas of my life. And it's, and it's really saved me a lot of grief.

He's got the guts to do it. And the Bible's clear. We don't, we don't hear sermons on Matthew 18, because it's so uncomfortable. We'd like to just save all the marriages before that point where we're trying to do that and focus tries to do that. But there are times when it's broken apart and we need somebody to step forward. And the Bible clearly states one or two witnesses.

That's a friend that someone who has the guts to on the behalf of the wife or the husband, step up and confront the sinner in love. We could choke out so many sins just across the board, name the sin. If we had accountability on a weekly basis and as needed a call in the middle of the night, if you have to, when Satan is doing his thing, but we don't have that because ultimately we want to sin. If I'm not going to be accountable, what I'm saying is in essence, I want to do these things because then no one knows. Satan does his best work in secret.

But if I'm going to have Rocky know everything about me, everything about me and my weaknesses, okay, I've changed the whole game. Now I can stay out of that and I'm saying I don't want to sin. And I wonder if you can just give me as a guy, a couple of questions I can ask somebody if I feel like that, that looks like a dangerous behavior, a sinful behavior that he's engaged in, maybe not leading toward a divorce, but maybe my friend is really doing some stupid things. How do I broach that subject with him?

I would give him a little bit of a warning because guys don't like surprises, even if it's a good friend of yours and you'll say, I need to have a meeting with you. I'm concerned about some things in your life and I want to have an honest conversation with you about that. Now, if he resists that meeting, okay, now we know, well questioned, he's doing something wrong and we're going to have to, then you're going to show up and just surprise him.

So it's a good test. Any guy that is not into something bad or is willing to talk about it, okay, that's good. Okay, let's meet.

So he knows the agenda. It's not, let's have a couple of pancakes and then are you sinning? I wouldn't start that way, but you've set it up that way. Then the conversation is after some small talk, maybe, maybe very little, I'm concerned about you. You know, I love you. And I'm saying this out of love and concern as the Bible would have me do. And I've seen some things in your life that I'm concerned about and man to man, this is just between the two of us. I want you to tell me the truth and I'll do whatever I can to help you. I will, I will spend time with you. If you want me to go with you to your wife or your pastor, I'll do that. I'm a friend.

I'm not just dumping the load here. And you want a relationship where you'd even say, you know what, I wanted to go both ways. I'm confronting you, but you know what, man, I got my own issues and I got my own weaknesses.

So when we're done with you, I want you to ask me the same questions. That's gutsy. That's a two way street. And it lightens the load on him because it's like, yeah, I got issues too. And if he'd respond to that, that's going to be a deeper friendship and you can save him. And it could be short of serious sin that you and he can work things out with God. He may have to go to his wife and share something, but you'll support him in that too.

That would be strong. Let me ask you in your experience, David, I'm laughing inside because I'm reminded of a comedian who had a little skit on this. And he talked about a couple that he knew in this skit that they were divorcing. And he talked his wife into letting him go play golf with this man. So he might talk to him about, you know, this divorce. And so he goes away for four or five hours and the man comes home and the wife says, well, did you talk to him? And he said he got a new club and never spent any time talking about the divorce.

And he turns that into a funny shtick. But that is kind of where a lot of us as men are at today. We never get around to the tough discussion. Women, it seems in their relational capability, they're much better at sitting down and talking heart to heart. And I don't want to just say they're wired for it, but they seem more capable and competent in doing this.

Men struggle. That description of a conversation you just provided, I don't think it happens very often in male relationships. It's, yeah, I spent four hours golfing with him, but his relationship with his wife just never came up. Right. And you got to make it come up.

Nathan made it come up. It is gutsy and it runs against, I think, male nature to get that deep. But it's the requirement of scripture. We have examples, of course, throughout scripture. Every time sin happens in scripture, it's to be confronted. Is it a lack of manliness?

Are we missing, as men today, are we missing what it means to be a godly man? Because we're not, we're jocular. We're more in that place of fun and entertainment. Superficial. Right.

And Satan with entertainment and sports and all the stuff that guys like to talk about, he's winning because that's not what you should be talking about only. And a guy doesn't, I'm telling John, you don't want to confront the guy because you don't want to be confronted. This is a two-way street. If I had the guts to confront Rocky, then I have to let him confront me. Because guys immediately would say, well, you're calling me on this. How about you? Exactly.

So if we get a two-way street, it can make a huge difference. Last time we talked a bit about, rightfully, that when a spouse is in this situation, they have sinned against God. And as they begin to project that sin to the spouse, well, she never did, fill in the blank.

Or she would not, fill in the blank. And we begin to justify why I was in this affair, because my needs weren't being met. You're saying that's not how sin happens. Sin's between you and God.

Those things may be backdrop items that need to be worked on. But when you sin, that's between you and God. And I think you hit that very forcefully last time. Let's move to the next step. I mean, let's say the couple wants to look for reconciliation and repair. How do you begin to work on those contributing factors together and talk about them honestly? The transition is tricky, but it can be done.

And it can be done when you really have healed in that first phase. The man's rep... Let's say he's had the affair. He's repentant.

He's sorry. We've done all the work, the document, the response document. Five to six months. Right.

Five to six months in. We have really healed. Trust is being rebuilt. Now we make the segue. And I'll be very clear. Now, they know it's coming, because I already told them that. We're going to reach the point where we're going to look at the marriage very hard. When the wife has enough trust and you've changed.

I wouldn't ask her to do that until she knows you're a different man. You're the next Billy Graham. You are growing. You are solid. You are on track. Now she can trust you with more personal things. Now we can look at the marriage. And so what we do is, the first assignment is always, okay, now we're going to start looking at your marriage. This has nothing to do with the affair. You're still working on that mop-up operation as you need to. But the whole different arena now is your marriage. The homework is, what have each of you done in your marriage, apart from any sins, that has been your responsibility that has really caused problems in this marriage? And we all have a list.

The guy has a list. And now the wife, who was the victim, now she has a list. But she can do that now because she's healed and she knows that the marriage wouldn't need to be fine. And now she can actually do that work.

So we start going down that path. What does that typically look like in your counseling practice? What are the more normal things that a wife who is in that situation has made it through, committed to her husband, what are those things that she would need to work on? Very commonly, she will admit, you know what, I have focused too much on the kids. I wasn't a mom before, and I'm spending too much time with the kids, and they've really come before you. It could be her career. I've really gotten involved in my career, and I'm trying to please people. I was talking to a teacher the other day, a female teacher, a wonderful teacher, and she's going way too far.

She is absolutely, teaching is a huge job, and she's doing more than she needs to. She needs to admit, boy, that my career is too important. She may have to admit, I've not been as affectionate with you. I've not respected you. As a husband, I don't praise you. I don't act like I'm crazy about you. I'm doing sex as a duty.

All that would be very classic things that she needs to own and begin to change. But you're saying absolutely that should never be a rationalization for the husband. Sin is sin. Right. Because if I'm that woman, and I've participated in your affair, and I'm partly to blame, then the rest of my life with you, if I stay with you, I'm going to have to wonder if I'm good enough today, if I'm good enough this week.

That's got nothing to do with it. David, as you last time and this time, again, talk about that point at which a man, if he's in the perpetrator position here, if he's the one that has caused the infidelity, etc., the importance of repentance, apply that more broadly, spiritually speaking, what is in the human psychology in the spirit of the human being? What is going on with repentance? And why do some spouses get it and they want to change and they say, Okay, I'm in and then others continue a facade.

What is the difference there? What is true repentance look like? Ultimately, it's between you and God. That's what it all comes down to. Yes, I've damaged my wife terribly, but that isn't even the primary thing.

I've heard God himself who sent Christ to die for me. All my sins, I'm thumbing my nose at him. And I'm saying I don't want a relationship with you.

I'm choosing the world and what it has to offer. True repentance is I get it. And I'm very aware how could I have done this to my Savior Jesus Christ, to the God who created me, who's given me all these good things.

And if you get that, then that typically leads to brokenness. But if you don't want to get that, and you're going to say, You know what, God really isn't that important. And there's a better way. That's what you're saying. God's way is not the best way.

I want to do it my way. And God's disappointed me. And he's not been and they'll blame God when they really get honest, they're blaming God for their sin. Let's move again past that point where the friction and the big sin has happened.

The recoveries occurred five to six months down the road. They're working on their own issues. The marriage is doing pretty good. There's more trust. But how does that offended spouse not fall back into the how come you work so late tonight?

What was that phone call about? How does she or he rebuild the trust that's been broken, even over a year or two years or five years? How did they really ever trust again? Boy, good question.

What I have to have that lady do, and I'm actually have both of them do it as part of the marriage work in the second phase, Jim, and that is she has to look at all the things prior to marrying this man that are now going to transfer in and cause her not to trust. Satan's going to use every one of those. My dad neglected me. My dad abused me. The neighbor boy touched me inappropriately.

I've been disappointed in these other relationships. I've never healed from those. All that now, and Satan will kind of wait. He'll have it explode at first, but if you heal, it goes underground. Now he's going to wait because he's smart until you're starting to heal, and then he's going to hit her with that. So and the guy will think he'll never forgive me. All that stuff has to be dealt with.

Now we do it together. The husband's going to be your main support, the one that hurts you the worst is now he's going to help you through these personal issues, and you're going to help him through yours, and that's a huge part of the process. What do you teach her to do? How does she bite her tongue if she has that concern? What, practically speaking, do you help her do differently? Other than working on her own issues with her husband, she needs to see it as Satan's lie.

He's the father of lies. He is lying to her by trying to confuse her, and she needs to see it that way. I'll have her actually write down, write down the lie, what is Satan telling you, what's coming into your head, and what's the truth? And this is the husband's argument around.

She's thinking all these things. And then as soon as you can talk to your husband, then bring that out, and I think it always needs to be shared. But in the context of I went through a hard time today, I am trying to trust you, but here's what happened. And together they pray about it that strong. So it's never a secret. I battled this.

I think I know the truth. He just reinforces it. Honey, I want you to always come to me, and I can explain why I was late from work. And so you have the discussion, but it's brief, and then you move on. If you have a serial abuser in that regard, the wife has tried valiantly to save the marriage because she knows God says he hates divorce. If it is perpetual and sporadic improvement, is that a better situation in terms of her making that final decision to say, you're not maturing, you're not growing, I've got to say it's over? Yeah, yeah, that's really God speaking to her. And I never recommend divorce, but I will say I'll go as far as separation.

Clearly, this is a case you need to leave him. And then I say, let God be your guide, that there is a biblical reason here. And based on his behavior of not turning from his sin, relapse after relapse, bad attitude, okay.

You know, you talk to your pastor, make it a matter of prayer, and I believe God will release that if it's God himself, but he will find a way to release you. And it's based on, yeah, his continuing sin. And so in that case, I mean, there needs to be a reasonableness to the situation, and to make sure that you are pursuing God's will in that. I like that idea of separation, not divorce, as the ultimate goal.

Right. And that's really his last chance. God's going to honor you for giving him every possible opportunity while protecting your own heart. But now we're going to have to go to the next level. And I have to train some of these ladies, they may not be ready to leave. Well, let's get you ready emotionally, financially, get a job, get training, got to rebuild your life. Because this kind of a dirtball, and I say dirtball because he has now proven to be a dirtball, he's going to cut you off financially, squeeze you, try to character assassinate you. So you've got to get ready for all that and be strong and tough enough.

That'll just confirm, of course, it's not going to work. But these guys are so nasty to protect themselves. They'll see things like, well, she's really crazy.

You don't see this at church, but I live with her and she's crazy. It's lies to ruin her reputation to protect himself. And there are guys that are smooth enough and good enough, the narcissists of this world that can get away with it.

But I want the wife to know, be prepared for that, you're going to move on. And again, I'll say it, and I'm sorry to keep saying this, but the shoe is on both feet. In other words, the women do this to men, men do this to women in this modern culture. And the percentage of women having affairs is rising, it's not going down.

Right. You say that most marriages fail not because of adultery, although that's a predictor, but because couples fail to do the very hard work of healing and living a biblical marriage. As we wrap up right now, take a minute to end on a high note, really, on a biblical note, and give us your best argument for why all this work and pain is worth it. Boy, I could tell you a hundred stories.

I'm thinking of one right now of a couple that has gone through the process and is right now at the end. And it's a wonderful story of redemption. And we hit all the high points. He's the godly young man. He made a mistake. He slept with somebody at work. His wife was devastated.

She had a difficult past. All that filtered in. They've gone through the steps. And right now they have a better marriage than they ever had before. They're close. They're intimate.

They have honesty. Everything is clicking. God's at the center. And so that's what I'm talking about. That's what can happen with God's help. A wonderful story. And who gets the glory?

God does. He, they worked hard. We all worked hard, but God did it. It's beautiful.

It's when it works. And it takes our participation, not fairy dust, our hard work to say, God, we want to honor you. And there is an enemy of our soul and to recognize that. Dr. David Clark, author of the book, what to do when your spouse says, I don't love you anymore. Thanks so much for being with us. Thank you. What a wonderful way to end that conversation with hope. And that really is our bottom line message today. There is hope for your marriage, even if you don't feel it. And here at Focus on the Family, we'd like to help you in whatever way we can. We've mentioned our Hope Restored program several times these past two days. Hope Restored is a counseling retreat that's designed to help your marriage survive and thrive. Through intensive counseling over several days, hurting couples learn how to love each other again, really how to communicate with each other and put God at the center of their relationship. And we have a ninety nine percent satisfaction rating for those couples who've gone through Hope Restored.

Those are pretty good odds. And we encourage you to check it out. If you need to talk to someone right away, let us put you in touch with one of our Christian counselors. They are available to talk with you, pray with you and get you on the right path to heal your relationship. And the number to call for every one of these resources and so much more is 800-232-6459. 800, the letter A in the word family.

Or check the episode notes for more details. And if the relationship with your spouse is in a good place, let me invite you to join our marriage rescue team. We need financial partners like you to support broadcasts like this one and provide the counseling websites and other resources like Hope Restored that we've described. If you can make a monthly pledge to focus on the family, you'll help rescue hurting marriages all year long. Imagine how many more families we can save and strengthen when we work together. So can we count on your generous support today?

I hope so. Donate by clicking the link in the episode notes or when you call 800, the letter A in the word family. On behalf of Jim Daly and the entire team, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family. I'm John Fuller inviting you back next time as we once more help you and your family thrive in Christ.