Matt Slick Live

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. It's Matt Slick live. Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, found online at com.org. When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick Live for answers, taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. Everybody, welcome to the show. I hope you, uh, going to have a good day listening and we're going to have some good conversations, hopefully.

So if you want to give me a call for open lines, all you have to do is dial 877-207-2276. It's real easy to do. All right. Guess what I did yesterday. I actually sat and watched about 12 hours of TV. It was awesome. Oh, it was awesome. But today, oh boy, uh, try to catch up with that stuff going on as is always the case.

So look, hey folks, um, listen to Matt Slick Live. And if you like what you are hearing and you want to learn a little bit more, you're interested in a discussion, the Bible, let's see, Christian theology, Mormonism, Jehovah's witnesses, Christian science, unity, Baha'i Islam, Roman Catholicism, Eastern orthodoxy, and the like. Now let's see, Wednesday we'll be doing a, um, live conference on the Trinity Thursday.

I teach Bible study Friday. I got a debate and it's going to be a busy week for me, busy week for me. So, uh, that's okay. Lot to do.

All right. If you want to give me a call, all you have to do is dial 877-207-2276. I want to hear from you. So let's just get on the air with Rudolph from Raleigh, North Carolina. Rudolph, welcome.

You are on the air. Yes, sir. Um, what is an Orthodox Christian? You mean as in Eastern Orthodox?

I don't think, I don't know. All you said was Orthodox Christian. That's probably a, well, if a person said he, he is an Orthodox Christian, uh, then that's generally what that is, is someone who holds to Eastern Orthodoxy, which is not Christian. It's like Roman Catholicism, uh, it teaches the false gospel and, uh, you know, it's just not Christian.

So, um, I could talk to you about it if you want, what they teach up to you. Oh no, but well, it was the guy from Turkey, that Erdogan guy. Erdogan was saying that he was, uh, Orthodox Christian. He has to be, he'd be referring to Eastern Orthodoxy. They call themselves Orthodox. And, uh, so let's just say that, uh, we're all reading with, um, what they teach. Well, let me just tell you what they teach about salvation. What they say is that, uh, salvation is achieved through a process.

It's not forensic in that it is not legal. It is not something that happens instantaneously, uh, by faith. Uh, it is something that's a process of your whole life. Where do you participate in the energies of God? The energies of God are his graces. His grace has come upon you and they move you towards theosis. Theosis is being God-like. They don't say you become a God or that you become divine, but that you become like Jesus. It's to such a degree that you're, uh, you're, you're, you're God-like in that sense. And that the energies of God, these graces are those things that work through you by God's work through you to bring you to a place where you can then hopefully achieve salvation through a long period of, of participation in these graces.

And so, uh, it teaches a false gospel just on that alone. Okay. Thank you very much. I bet you want to say one thing. I know how you like, uh, hate mail on Friday. Yes, I do. I knew you loved it, but okay.

Right. So I bet you wouldn't like it that much. We're going to change to flat earth. Flat earth. You don't, wait a minute, you don't, you don't, you don't like that. Wait a minute, you don't, you're like that. Wait, are you saying you believe in flat earth?

What? No, no, no. Honestly, I knew you, I knew you don't like it.

No, flat earth is just not true. Um, no, I'm saying that you don't like talk about that. So let's talk about it. Did you like so to flat earth fry fried? Well, uh, if people want to call up and talk about the absurdity of, of, uh, no, no, no, you don't want people to, okay, then I'm, I'm at a loss.

What are you saying? You want me to talk about flat earth instead of hate mail? No, I'm saying you like hate mail.

So let's change it from hate mail that you like. Let's change it to some things you don't like, flat earth. Flat earth is just dumb. It's just dumb. I mean, hate mail is at least entertaining.

Flat earth is just ridiculous. Okay. Okay. Well, thank you. You're welcome. You too, Ralph. God bless me. All right. All right, why don't we let's get on the air with Elijah from Pennsylvania. Elijah.

Welcome. You are on the air. Hey man, how are you doing today? Oh, busy, you know, talking on the radio, got to work on stuff after I'm done.

What else I got to do about everything? You know, that's all I saw. Yeah. I'm a, I'm a calling you up, you know, you know, doing a follow up from, uh, from all we talked about on Friday.

Okay. My, my pastor, uh, he watched the video this morning and then he got back with me. Uh, he said, uh, uh, it turns out that it was just a misunderstanding. He said, he says that he does believe in a faith alone. Uh, he said that he had misspoke and, and he said, he said that from, from now on, or, you know, when he texts people, so he's going to have to be careful what he says, cause, cause he doesn't want to, you know, accidentally mislead people. I mean, that's good, good for him.

Good for him. You know, I remember once I was preaching at a church and I got down after preaching, I was guest preaching Southern California and the elders came up to me and we're smiling and I'm like, what? And they said, you know what you said up there? I said, Oh, what did I say?

I'm smiling and they're laughing. They said, you said, quote, Jesus is not God. I said, no, I didn't. And they go, yes, you did.

But they knew it was just a, you know, just a misspeaking, you don't. So it happens. It happens. No, big deal.

All right. Yeah. Um, but, uh, but, uh, to my question, I have a question about, uh, the millennial rain cause, uh, I've been, I've read a revelation, uh, 20 versus four through six now I know, I know that in the, uh, a millennial view, they teach that the millennial range is now, but if you really read revelation 20 versus four through six, it says those who will reign with Christ for a thousand years. Are those who, who were beheaded for testimony of Jesus and for, and those who did not worship the beast for its image or it's not received its mark on their forehead or their hands, uh, so, so this seems future tense, not now. So I will, I wonder, uh, uh, what do you think about those verses? Yeah. Uh, it says, and then he threw them in the abyss, those are the, uh, uh, devil Satan dragon serpent, uh, bound him through him into the abyss and shut and sealed it over, uh, wouldn't deceive the nations any longer till the thousand years, uh, was completed after these things.

He must be released for a short time. Then I saw thrones and sat on them. The judgment was given to them. So it doesn't say, uh, that it was a sequentially right at one, right there after the other, it just says, and then, uh, thrones, so it doesn't say how long it doesn't say, uh, anything. Okay. Yeah. My question is a part where it says that those who reign with Christ are the ones who refuse to worship the beast and take his mark. Okay. Yeah. Um, so what I understand about, uh, this view in this is that those who, uh, those are, they're not millennial reign.

Those are the ones who have died with Christ, been beheaded, been, uh, uh, suffered for his sake and they are made alive. And this is the problem I would have with it made alive because they're already alive if they're, if they're dead, you know, physically, and that they're going to rule in that state with Christ. Now, I think that's one of the, personally, I think it's one of the weaknesses of all millennialism in that position. Okay.

Yeah. Like I say, you know, every view has strengths and weaknesses. And, uh, what I, I find to be extremely strong for all male is the, this age and the age to come categorization. And when you do that, it becomes very, very difficult to justify literal thousand year reign.

It really does. And I have an article on it, uh, and you can see, you know, that, uh, for example, at the end of the age, the wicked are gathered, the judgment of the wicked occurs, the elect are also gathered, the harvest occurs, the Jesus returns, the, uh, the judgment of the wicked is on the last day, which, uh, the judgment of the good is the day of the Lord and the judgment of the wicked is also called the day of the Lord. So the judgment of the wicked is the last day. But that's also at the end of the age, according to me, I get all these verses, and so they're the verse, the scriptures speak of the same event in different ways. So for example, the judgment of the wicked happens at the end of the age, but also it happens on the last day, but also happens on the day of the Lord. So we can therefore say that the end of the age is the last day, which is the day of the Lord. And so we can then say from all of those things that the resurrection occurs on, uh, the day of the Lord, and it's also the return of Christ. And it's also the rapture. So this all has to happen pretty much at the same time, not necessarily at the exact same second, but on the same day in a period, there's going to be a lot of stuff happening right then and there. So what I do is I put my, my, uh, my emphasis on those things. And, uh, you know, for example, the, the resurrection of the good occurs at the last trumpet, which is also when the rapture occurs, but the rapture occurs in the day of the Lord, which is the same day judgment of the wicked, which is it. And so these are the things I look to. And so when I come into verses like this in revelation, I'll say, you know, I'm not exactly sure how that fits into the omele position.

And just like other verses would not fit very well into the pre-mill position and stuff like that. So that's what I say. Okay. And, uh, and, uh, can I say one more thing before I go?

Sure. Yeah, so, um, you know, uh, I, I, uh, uh, lean, lean more towards the, uh, once they've always saved you now after watching, you know, several debates on, uh, you know, salvation and stuff. And, and say I finished, I finished reading book of Galatians and, and, and one of the reasons why I used to believe that you could lose your salvation is because, you know, uh, Galatians, uh, seems like, you know, the churches of Galatians, you know, apostasized and lost their salvation, but today I found a verse that stuck out to me, uh, it's in, uh, Galatians, uh, five, 10, where Paul says, I have confidence in the Lord that you will take no other view and the one who is troubling you will bear the penalty, whoever he is. And I have a MacArthur study Bible and I looked at the footnote and they give a cross reference to back to, I think it's John 10, 27, and the other one. 10, 27, 28, where Jesus says, uh, it is the world, the father that said, uh, I lose his nine and nobody can fuck them out of my hand or the father's hand. Amen.

Yes. For John, I mean, uh, John 10, 27, 28, actually, those are the verses that, uh, convert converted me, uh, or solidified me in the issue of you cannot lose your salvation, but here, think about this too. So Jesus bore our sin in his body in the cross 2000 years ago.

So a guy named Bob is born, you know, in our, our time here. And he's an unbeliever until the age of 40 and for 10 years he's a believer. And then he stops, uh, being a believer. So he loses his salvation.

Let's work on from that model. Well, then here's the question. Did Jesus bear all of his sins or not bear all of his sins?

And if he bore all of his sins, how could he be not saved if all of his sins were paid for and how could he be saved if the future sins weren't paid for and still be saved? It doesn't make any sense. Well, we got to go unless you want to stay. All right, buddy.

We got a break. All right. Thank you.

All right, man. Hey, we have four open lines. Give me a call. 877-207-2276. We'll be right back.

It's Matt Slick live taking a call at 877-207-2276 is Matt Slick back to the show, everyone. And if you want to give me a call, we have two open lines, 877-207-2276. All right. Let's see.

Let's get to Alberto from Georgia, Alberta. Welcome. You're on here. Yeah.

Good evening, Matt Slick. My question is what's the problem? interpretation for revelation chapter three, verse five and revelation chapter 22 verse 19. Oh, whatever one God gives. That's a bit. That's the right one. All right.

Well, yes. What's the right one? I could only tell you the right one is the one that God would do. And I have an opinion of what I think it might be.

But I don't know if it's the right one. So I hear a preacher say that the doctor got erased the person's name out of the book of life. No. But why should God raise the person's book of life once he writes it and God knows who's going to believe in him. God makes no mistakes.

He's all sovereign. So why have to put it and erase it later on? All right. So, you know, I'll give you what I believe it means.

Okay. And it says he who ever comes will thus be clothed in white garments and I will not erase his name from the book of life. And I'll confess his name before my father and before his angels. They make a mistake of saying, of thinking logically that, oh, that means he can erase it. No, it doesn't say he can. It just says, and he won't. If he won't, it's the same thing as saying it can't happen because he won't do it. So it's either won't because it's eternally decreed or he won't, as they might say, because if you're good enough, you won't erase it. So they go with later or the latter interpretation now, revelation 22, 19, I don't know if that's the right verse that you're talking about. I've sent my angel to testify of these things. Oh, no, excuse me.

Here it is. If anyone takes away from the words, I read the wrong thing. Anyone takes away from the words of the book of his prophecy. God will take his part away from the tree of life in the holy city and which are written in this book. This book is the book of revelation and he says, take his part from the tree of life.

Doesn't say the book of life. Now, just so you know, in Revelation 17, eight, the beast that you saw was and is not and is about to come upon the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast and who that he was and is not and will come. And so it also occurs in Revelation 13, eight, the phrase, it says, all who dwell on the earth will worship him. Everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life. So what we're seeing here is that God has written their names from the foundation of the world in the book of life.

It makes perfect sense. And he's he's a sovereign king there in the book of life from eternity past. God is not going to put the person's name in the book of life if they're going to lose their salvation because they didn't know the book of life. Now they might say, well, no, you can be in and then out and in and out. Well, then here's a question. Can you lose your salvation, get it back, lose it back? Does it, does the name of the book, your name written in the book of life and taken out, put back in, taken out, put back in? It never implies anything like that.

So the people who teach you to lose your salvation are on weak foundation. Okay. Okay. So what do you think?

I heard this guy named Corey Miner, Mark Christian channel. He believes in favor. We save and like you do. And he says that according to the Greek, it's an emphatic negation or double emphatic negation. Right. Right. Uh, I think it's, uh, let me see in revolution three five is what you're talking about. Let me see.

It's, uh, yeah. We'll not erase. Um, uh, who may in Greek, it's double negative. It will not happen. It will not not. Now we see this double negative, which means it will.

But, uh, what is saying there's, it's an emphatic declaration. It's not even possible. Okay. Exactly.

That's what he said. Also, thank you. Correct. Okay. The number that video I told you about, I was going to show you about RCS for, uh, to wake up and hail and send a clip. Then I don't know how to send it to you. And I'm not on an email. It's the title, the title of the video is called, uh, to wake up and hail. It's in the clip.

No, you just, uh, take the URL and email it to info at carm.org info dot info, info, info at, at carm.org. Okay. Right.

That's your, that's your email address. Okay. That's it. That's all you have.

That's the ministry email address. Okay. Okay. Okay.

All right. Info at carm.org, okay, and, and, and, and, and, uh, click on the, you said, uh, the, the, the clip thing you said. If you have a video is going to be in a browser, you go to the top of the browser where it says HTTP, S colon slash slash. You just, uh, select that entire thing. Click once into it.

Hit control a that'll select the whole thing. Control C that'll copy a for all C for copy control a control C. Okay. Then you go over to your, um, email control V for paste. Okay.

V not P because print V. Okay. Okay. Okay. V or right mouse click, or you can just do the same thing by right mouse clicking and you can, uh, well, I don't know how to sell for when I'm doing it on the computer. Okay.

Well then you had to stand on your head and make sure the, the phone's facing east and then it'll work better. Okay. All right. Okay. Okay. God bless.

All right. Now let's get to Randall from West Virginia. Randall.

Welcome. You are on the air. Hey Matt.

Hey Randall from West Virginia. Okay. Now, can, and do I have a clear connection? So far. Yes. Okay. Now, should my phone be facing me toward Jerusalem or Mecca? Yes.

While you're moonwalking backwards. That's that's right. Well, no, actually why I called you, I have a phrase I've talked to you about my sister that became Muslim many years ago, she married a Muslim and she became Muslim and she asked me not to talk to her daughter about Christianity when she was born. So I agreed, I wouldn't, but I said, I will not continue to pray for her that she finds Jesus now, Wednesday night, Mariam, that's her name.

He turned 16 years old when Mariam called me for the first time and had a lot of questions about Christianity. She did not understand any of it. She wanted me to explain the difference between a pastor and a priest and explain the Trinity, and I think I explained everything pretty well. And she was hung up on the Trinity and she was thinking God took three forms and I told her, no, it's one God and three persons. And she said, she don't, didn't see how that could be possible. And I told her it's not possible. As far as human understanding, I said, but God's ways are not our ways.

And he's far above us. And I, I think she was understanding a lot more. She'd never been taught anything, but what I'm getting to is I have been praying for 16 years for that girl. I love her.

I had held her in my lap when she was a little, and 16 years later, she calls me. And you know, that's, that's just a blessing. And I wanted to share that with you and Charlie because Charlie, uh, mentioned something before, it's been a while and you know, it's just, you know, well, it's encouraged, there's a music we gotta go, but it's, it's, it's encouraging Randall, it is cause I'm praying for my daughters and, uh, I'm praying for my daughter, uh, Charlie's praying for his son.

So I know that that's the case. Okay. We've got to go cause there's a break buddy. Thanks a lot, man. Appreciate it. All right. All right.

Hey folks, two open lines, 8, 7, 7, 2, 0, 7, 2, 2, 7, 6. We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live taking your calls at 8, 7, 7, 2, 0, 7, 2, 2, 7, 6.

Here's Matt Slick. All right. Well, let's get back to the show. Let's get to Mike from Winston, Salem, North Carolina.

Welcome. You're on the air. Oh, hey, Matt. Um, I have a question about Matthew 24 verse 14 and this gospel, this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all nations. And then the end will come the word world there.

What does that pertain to? I mean, I think the original Greek, the word world there is not what we think the word world is, but it's not cosmos, which is the word world. This is a local menu and it means all the inhabited earth, the Roman empire of Palestine, the adjacent countries, generally and in later usage, the habitable globe of earth and the world is known to the people of ancient times. Matthew 24, 14, Luke, 21, 16, Romans 10, 18, et cetera, right.

Okay. And I think, I think this is the only time that Jesus uses the word oracle meaning. Um, and it says witness to all nations. That's the nations of the Roman, the Roman empire was made up of what? Like 26 nations or something. I don't know.

I mean, actually it includes Britannia, Gaul, Germania, you know, yeah. Um, and then when it says at the end, we'll come what end, that's the question. Um, let's see, and no, Jesus does use, does use it in Luke also in Luke 21, 26, then fading from fear, expectation of things that coming upon the world for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. So he does mention it there as well as Matthew 24, 14. Okay.

Just giving you a heads up because I'd like to do a little bit of research here. So, okay. Back to Matthew 24, 14. What's the end? Well, well, he's a dispensationalist and he believes in pre-trib stuff and pre-rapture stuff in a pre-trib, pre-millennial stuff, which I don't. And, uh, I think it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a and, uh, you know, he's a very learning, godly man, good guy.

And so we just have a difference of opinion here. So, uh, he might, might then say that the end is during the millennial rain, because that would make sense to say that the end will come. And then the new heavens, new worth are made. That would make sense. But it could be, I don't know what his particular position is, but maybe he might be interpreting the end will come as in the end of the seven year tribulation period. And then the millennium will start.

I don't know. Well, he says that this is how Christ characterizes the time of the great tribulation described in the verses that follow. Um, also when he, when he references preached in all of the world, he doesn't say it, Oikomeni, he talks about the gospel will be preached throughout the globe. And that's not what it says.

See, I'm, I'm disagreeing with John MacArthur on this. That's okay. But look, uh, in Luke two, one, it says Caesar goes to us to the senses, be taken of the whole inhabited earth. And so, uh, that's the word I'm going to look at my nest also. And the word earth there is, oh, it just says inhabited and then earth is implied.

All the inhabited, so implication of earth. And, uh, so, and then it says Luke two, four, five, Luke two, four, yeah. And through five where Satan is tempting Jesus and he showed him all the kingdoms of the world. And so when I look at the world, uh, the word Oikomeni, uh, uh, it comes from Oiketto to dwell, to abide the inhabited earth, the Roman empire acts 17, six, the Jews in the world acts 24, five of Palestine and the adjacent countries, Luke two, one, and, uh, generally, and then like I said earlier, uh, later usage, the globe, the earth, and that would be, for example, uh, you know, in Luke 21, 26, so, and then there's Romans 10 18 and the world's end.

Yeah. So it has a different meanings of different context. It's used 15 times and there's quite a variety of, of, uh, context. So it's also used in the world to come, for he did not subject the angels to angels, the world to come concerning what you're speaking.

So it has a, okay, I'm just thinking out loud, but has a broad semantic domain and it can mean a very localized area, local countries, or the entire earth, depending on the context. Right. Okay. Well, I was just, I was just somewhat confused because, uh, like I said, I've got a, I've also got a, a Scofield Bible, which, uh, is what was my first Bible.

I became a nutty dispensationalist and that kind of washed out of my system. But, uh, even he, Ethan Scofield says that that word for world is oracle many, I mean, he, he makes the correct reference and the part that didn't, which, you know, I've found a little bit disturbing, um, well, I don't see his emission of the, of the Greek word personally. I don't see it as a, as a problem.

I understand what he's doing. Um, it's just, uh, see, like, okay. Uh, there's a, uh, there's a word economic trinity, like, oh, can I, oh, you can no Mia is another Greek word. And it means an interrelated group of, of, of workings and stuff. And we get economy from it and then we get the economic trinity from it. But we can no Mia, and then, uh, here what we have is like on many, so it's, they're similar in their roots of an interrelated kind of a thing.

And, uh, and the, and the dictionary. Oikos. Oh yeah. Oikos just means house.

I know I've known that. I remembered it when I see yogurt called Oikos. I said to my wife, I like every time that means house in ancient Greek.

Uh, but Korea's or excuse me, Oikos Ross, Oikos Ross, uh, keeper at home. One who looks after domestic affairs of prudence and care, and then Oikite ro, uh, to pity, have compassion. So anyway, just look at the O I, uh, K route to see if there's any commonality in there is depending on how it's used. So, uh, Ooh, look at that. Ooh, look at that.

Master of the house. And yeah, interesting. Anyway, just so many good things. So I wouldn't put too much credence on it. Okay. Okay. All right.

Thanks, Matt. All right, man. Okay. God bless buddy. You have a good day.

God bless you. All right. Okay. All right.

Three open lines. Why don't you give me a call? 877-207-2276.

Look at the job from Pennsylvania. John, welcome you are on the air. Hello, Matt.

Thank you for taking my call. I have a question I'd like your perspective on in my reading. I encountered, uh, and it has to do with, uh, well, mainly the calling of Matthew, Levi, in the book of Matthew. Uh, you have the, uh, at the end of chapter eight, verse 28, you have the, uh, the event where there's the healing where Jesus goes over across the, across the lake to the gatherings or the Jerusalem and, and, uh, and, and, you know, you have the demoniacs being healed and, uh, and, uh, the demons being sent into the pig and then, uh, subsequent to that in nine at the beginning, you have him crossing back over to his own city and you have the paralytic being healed where he says your sins are forgiven. And then right after that, uh, I think, yeah, right after that, you have Jesus calling Matthew from the tax and then, of course, after that, he has the feast and, uh, and the Pharisees get upset with that. So you have the event of the gatherings, you know, the demoniac being healed. And then subsequently, at least in Matthew, it shows that, however, in the book of Luke, the, uh, that, uh, that sequence seems to be presented differently in, in chapter five, uh, starting at verse 17, you have that more detailed account of the man being brought in, uh, paralyzed, uh, you know, bringing him through the roof, Jesus healed them.

And then after he calls me by, and this is all in Matthew chapter five, but then in Matthew three at the beginning, hold on, hold on, I can't follow you. Okay. All of that.

Yeah. There's just a lot of information there and I'm not able to follow it and look at context to even begin to understand whatever your question is, which I don't know yet, but let's apply it. The calling of Matthew, uh, in, in, in the book of Matthew of first after the gathering of the maniac in Gil in the book of Luke, the calling of, of Matthew and all the 12 occurs before that. So it seems like the sequence was reversed and I just was stunned to see that in my never saw that before. And I just was wondering what your take is on that. Don't know.

I haven't studied it. So what I would suggest you do is write it up, uh, just say, here's this verse and then this version and this verse that says before and this one after. And that way we'll know exactly what the issue is and we'll take a look, make sure we can research it and write an article on that. I'll do that.

Thank you very much. Yeah. Cause there are a lot of issues and I've written a lot of answers on these. So, you know, we're called Bible difficulties.

I've got hundreds I've gone through and, uh, you know, I don't know them all. So I would just say, Hey, write it up and send it to us. We'll take a look. Okay. So we can answer it. Okay. I have to read, I have to read all the context, see what's going on.

If there's a Greek tense that makes a difference or not, you know, we're really going to get in and take a look. Okay. All right, man. Okay. All right. Sounds good, buddy. Thanks a lot.

All right. Three open lines, eight, seven, seven, two, zero, seven, two, two, seven. So get to Cody from Ohio right after this break.

Break. It's Matt slick live taking a call at eight, seven, seven, two, zero, seven, two, two, seven, six years. Matt slick.

But he welcomed back to the show. Let's get on the air with Cody from Ohio. Hey, Cody, welcome. You're on the air. Hey, Matt. Good evening. How's everything? Oh, it's going. So what do you got? Yes.

Okay. So some guys were asking about, um, you know, there was some commentary on born, um, once saved, always saved. So what I, what came to mind was Hebrews chapter five verse 11, all the way up to Hebrews six verse 12.

Um, what's your thoughts on that? So I can kind of have a better understanding. Well, there's a lot there, uh, in those, in that prayer, it's a lot of verses.

So I can't really read them all over the year and just go over it. So you probably are referencing mainly, uh, verses Hebrews six, four through six. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, were they saying that is a proof you can lose your salvation?

No, I just, you know, I've been told both yes and no about once they've always saved and I haven't really done much study. I just kind of, you know, the word of God is if I try to hold to that. Let me, let me help you out here. Okay. Look what it says here for those who've once been enlightened, does it say they're saved?

It's okay. Taste of the heavenly gift. What does taste the heavenly gift mean? That's a serious question and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit. Now that's the best that England would have right there to say that someone might be saved partakers of the Holy Spirit.

But again, what does the phrase mean? Because you can clearly see that, uh, Judas, for example, he was enlightened. He tasted the heavenly gift. He was in a very real sense, made a partaker of the Holy Spirit, seeing what, what could be done.

In fact, he even had gifts of the Holy Spirit to be able to do things and work miracles and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come and have fallen away. It's impossible to remove them again, repentance. Now there's two, two, uh, types of repentance. Second Corinthians seven, 10, I think it is.

Yes. For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret leading to salvation. But the sorrow of the world, that's a repentance produces death. There's true repentance and false repentance. So Judas, for example, repented of his sin, but he still went to hell. So, yeah, so the verse can't, the prequity, the section of scripture cannot be used to demonstrate that you can lose your salvation.

It doesn't prove it. Furthermore, if they want to say that it does mean you can lose your salvation, then notice what it says in verse six, they fall in the way. It's impossible to renew them again, a repentance. Well, that would mean then that they could never get their salvation back.

So you ask them, can they, a person lose the salvation? Yes. Can they get it back? Yes. Can they get it back? Yes. Well, then there's no, if they want to say a Roman to be Hebrew six, four through six teaches that you can lose your salvation. Then it must also teach that you can't get it back. But if they say you can, then why are they not agree with what they think the scriptures say there now?

Okay. First John two 19 says they went out from us because they never were of us. If they had been of us, they would have remained. Jesus says in John 10 27 28, my sheep hear my voice. And I give eternal life to them and they shall never perish. Jesus equates eternal life with never perishing.

Let me read it again. John 10 27, my sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me. And I give eternal life to them and they will never perish. Notice that Jesus says eternal life and they will never perish. Jesus gives it to them. He says, I give them eternal life and they will never perish. That's what Jesus is doing. He gives them eternal life and they will never perish because he gave them eternal life. That's why they will never perish. When you go to John six 37, it says this, all that the father gives me will come to me and the one who comes to me, I certainly will not cast out for I've gone down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him, him who sent me. This is the will of him who sent me that all that he's given me. I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. So can Jesus lose any, no, well, well, the father, Jesus can't lose any, but Jesus is the one who gives him eternal life. So they will never perish.

That's what he says. In fact, the next verse in verse 40, this is will of my father, that everyone who beholds the son and believes in him, well, I'd be trying to life and I myself will raise him up on the last day. And I notice that he's actually equating eternal life with not losing it or having it your life and never perish because he says in the previous verse that all of that he's given me, I lose none that's never perished, but raise it up on the last day. The next verse, he has had eternal life that he will raise him up on the last day. So he's equating eternal life with never perishing in that verse, those two verses.

Also, you go to John three 16, Jesus says for God to love the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life. So we can't lose our salvation because if Jesus was on the cross and he bore our sins and his body in the cross, did he bear all of them or not all of them? If he's going to bear the sins of someone who's saved, who's going to be saved back 2000 years ago, can they go to hell because he paid for their sins? In fact, Colossians two 14 says he canceled the certificate of debt.

He did it on the cross. It's canceled not when you believe or when you get baptized, but when Jesus died in the cross, having canceled the certificate of debt consisting of decrees, which was also to us, you took it out of the way, having to nail it to the cross, it was taken out of the way at the cross. If he paid for your sin debt back then, you can't lose your salvation because it's canceled then.

But think about this. Let's say there's a guy who is going to get saved at the H.J. of 40 and he's going to lose his salvation at the age of 50 well, 2000 years ago, Jesus bore all of his sin, right? Well, maybe not the sin he committed after he lost his salvation is not paid for, right?

Because if it's paid for, if a legal debt is paid for, then it can't be held against you. Sin is breaking the law of God. First John three four, it's a legal debt. And Jesus says, so our father, who art in heaven, is going to lose his salvation.

Part in heaven, holly be thy name. In Matthew six 12, he says, forgive us our debts. In Luke 11, four says, forgive us our sins. Jesus equates sin with legal debt.

Legal debts are transferred. They're transferred to him. He bore our sin in his body in the cross. Did he die for part of your sin or all of it? If he only bore part of your sin, then how could you be saved? If the unbeliever who's saved for 10 years ends up going to hell because not all the sins are paid for it, then how could he be saved without all the sins being paid for? You see, it just doesn't make sense to say you can lose your salvation.

That's like saying God made a mistake when he gave them to the son for safekeeping. Okay. Yeah. Never heard like that.

So that definitely helped. Well, you could, you convinced you can't lose your salvation or you're just not sure. No, I mean, I got, um, they, you know, people, I know that, you know, like your analogy, you know, 10 years ago they were saved and then for the past 10 years, they've lived a life of hell, rink in and smoke in and party in and fornicate and whatever, and now they're back in church. And it's like, well, where they, where they cost convert 10 years ago, or are they just, are they even safe now? Well, I can't tell you because I don't know them, but look, they went out first on to 19. They went out from us, but they were never really of us. For if they had been of us, they would have remained.

So would have remained. Okay. Yeah.

She got to think about this and if he just went for, I'm sorry. I was saying that reminded me of John 15. I buy the line. Yes. And that's covenant language is covenant language. Um, yeah. So, uh, uh, yeah.

Okay. So anyway, it's difficult to say or to justify the idea that we lose our salvation because Jesus came to redeem the ones given to him by the father. And he says, all that the father gives me will come to me. That means the father's giving a specific group to the son and the will of the father's that he lose none of them. So if people can lose their salvation, then Jesus lost them. He lost some of the ones given to him by the father and the will of the father's that Jesus not fail. Jesus can never fail to do the will of the father. So right there, you can't lose your salvation and our salvation does not depend on our goodness does not depend on our faith loss.

It can't because we'd, we'd be dead in a second and the people who say that you can lose your salvation and get it back are the ones who, if they, if they're consistent, we'll teach that they maintain their salvation by how good they are. They are the ones who keep believing. They are the ones who don't do bad things.

They're the ones who do the right things. And then what we have here is a problem at that point, because when you go to Luke 18 starting in verse nine, and he told the parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous and viewed others with contempt. Two men went up to the temple to pray one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself. God, I thank you that I'm not like other people. Swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax-scaled collector.

I fast twice a week. I pay tithes of all that I get. Do you think that that Pharisee was believing that he was maintaining his position with God by the things he did good and the things he did not do that were bad? Of course he was. He was having faith in God and he's saying, look, I don't do these bad things.

And I do the good things. And Jesus says, but a tax collector standing some distance away was even unwilling to lift his eyes up to heaven, but was beating his breast saying, God, be merciful to me, thus sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other. So he's saying the Pharisee was damned. This is what Jesus tells us, the parable that Jesus gave. The point is this Pharisee was saying that he's, you know, ended by Jesus' illustration, he's maintaining his position by his goodness. And that's a false gospel.

And as a false gospel, we don't, we don't maintain our salvation by our goodness. We can't, we can't. You're not good enough. I'm not good enough. If my salvation, depending on my goodness, I'm dead. I'm done. It's over because when people do who say that though, what they do is they redefine righteousness on their own level, not on the level of God, but on their own level, God understands that I'm sincere, that I'm trying. And as long as I do these right things, I'll be okay.

Why not become a Mormon or Roman Catholic with that kind of thinking? You know, when I hear people say, well, God knows my heart. Heart's definitely wicked and deceitful. Yeah. Yeah.

That's wicked and it's peaceful. So God knows your heart, then maybe you don't know your heart. Ooh, that's good. You know, God knows your heart. Do you know your own heart?

Yeah. Oh, I'm pretty good. Oh, you don't know your own heart. Heart, you know, once I was praying, I told the story, I was praying, and I was praying, and I was praying, and I was praying for 20 minutes, 20 minutes. And I was confessing every single sin I could think of.

I couldn't even think of anymore. And then in the midst of my humble status before God on my knees, I said, Lord, thank you for not making me like the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. And just like the text, you know, he goes, thank you for not making me like the tax collector, and I recognize what I had said in the wickedness of my own heart, only because of the word of God. Even in the best part of our prayers, we're still wicked.

And yet God loves us anyway. Wow. Yeah. Wow.

That's why we need that word of God written in our heart. Oh, you got it right, brother. Amen. No, incredible. Yeah.

Yeah, I like to go ahead. Sorry, man. It goes to show that when Jesus, you know, millions of people that are lost converts, you know, Jesus is going to say to them, depart from me. I never knew you.

Well, you might know Jesus, but does Jesus know you? That's the right question. You should call back tomorrow. We could talk more about that.

I could teach you some more. I will. Hey, buddy, there's the music. All right, man. All right, Cody. Yup.

Got to go through our network. Love you. Yeah. Okay. Goodbye. Hey, folks, there you go. We're out of time. Hey, we'll talk to you tomorrow by God's grace. Another program powered by the Truth Network.